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I think the main attraction of the Hobgoblin rogue is the Remorseless Lash ancestry feat, which when combined with the Dread Striker Rogue feat allows you to keep an opponent flat-footed for as long as you continue to successfully strike them.
You’re skilled at beating a foe when their morale is already breaking. When you succeed at a melee weapon Strike against a frightened foe, that foe can’t reduce their frightened condition below 1 until the beginning of your next turn.
You capitalize on your enemies’ fear to slip past their defenses. Any creature that has the frightened condition is also flat-footed against your attacks.
Unfortunately, not getting a fixed boost to Charisma, Strength, or Dexterity means they will probably be a little 'behind the curve' in either Frightening or Striking, but teaming up with a cleric can make for very long-lasting and painful Fear spells.
On the weapon front, I strongly recommend the Shortsword over the Rapier:
- It's a significantly less bulky, which really matters for characters who leave their strengths low (and doubly so if you want a cold iron and a silver version on hand),
- Versatile S means they are they are much more useful against zombies and similar creatures (Piercing Damage is traditionally the worst for Damage Reduction), and
- Outside of a crit, the damage is the same, and even a crit is not that much better with a rapier.
One thing to note, probably in the Monk multiclass archetype, is that the Thief racket does not gain Dex to damage with unarmed attacks, by the rules as written (and possibly intended). I believe that probably reduces the value of the Monk multiclass archetype for Thief, but it may still be the best option for a Rogue/Monk multiclass based on the later Rogue feats that key off your Racket.
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One thing to note, probably in the Monk multiclass archetype, is that the Thief racket does not gain Dex to damage with unarmed attacks, by the rules as written (and possibly intended). I believe that probably reduces the value of the Monk multiclass archetype for Thief, but it may still be the best option for a Rogue/Monk multiclass based on the later Rogue feats that key off your Racket.
There might be an issue with Ruffians getting sneak attack with unarmed attacks as well, but it is no where near clear cut ('You can deal sneak attack damage with any simple weapon, in addition to the weapons listed in the sneak attack class feature.' is unclear as to whether or not you retain the ability to sneak attack with unarmed strikes as well). I'd expect most GMs to rule the Ruffian text only effects weapons and does not change the 'unarmed strike' portion of sneak attack, but your mileage may vary...
When it comes to taking multi-class archetypes, the biggest issue a rogue has is the pure number of 'blue' and 'green' class feats they get, making it hard to drop any for archetype feats. Even when you do get a level with no really good options, odds are pretty good there are good class feats you had to skip a couple of levels earlier (for example, my 'thief 8' already has two feat he skipped that I'd really like to take someday (Light Step and Blind-Fight)
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I feel like the rogue is kinda pushed away from multiclassing because he only gets weapon specialization and critical specialization with the weapons the core rogue class gives you.
There's a mismatch between the thief racket (works with any finesse weapon) and the class (gain expert+ with simple and enumerated weapons only).
One thing to note, probably in the Monk multiclass archetype, is that the Thief racket does not gain Dex to damage with unarmed attacks, by the rules as written (and possibly intended). I believe that probably reduces the value of the Monk multiclass archetype for Thief, but it may still be the best option for a Rogue/Monk multiclass based on the later Rogue feats that key off your Racket.
Monastic Weapons is the workaround here. The Nunchaku, Sai, and Fighting Fan are all Finesse, Monk weapons. So Thieves can get Dex to damage with them, deliver Sneak Attack damage with them, and use them with Monk abilities like Ki Strike and Flurry.
I feel like the rogue is kinda pushed away from multiclassing because he only gets weapon specialization and critical specialization with the weapons the core rogue class gives you.
There's a mismatch between the thief racket (works with any finesse weapon) and the class (gain expert+ with simple and enumerated weapons only).
You can't get Weapon Specialization with Monastic Weapons, but at least you can get Critical Specialization by taking Brawling Focus.
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One thing to note, probably in the Monk multiclass archetype, is that the Thief racket does not gain Dex to damage with unarmed attacks, by the rules as written (and possibly intended). I believe that probably reduces the value of the Monk multiclass archetype for Thief, but it may still be the best option for a Rogue/Monk multiclass based on the later Rogue feats that key off your Racket.Monastic Weapons is the workaround here. The Nunchaku, Sai, and Fighting Fan are all Finesse, Monk weapons. So Thieves can get Dex to damage with them, deliver Sneak Attack damage with them, and use them with Monk abilities like Ki Strike and Flurry.
You can't get Weapon Specialization with Monastic Weapons, but at least you can get Critical Specialization by taking Brawling Focus.I feel like the rogue is kinda pushed away from multiclassing because he only gets weapon specialization and critical specialization with the weapons the core rogue class gives you.
There's a mismatch between the thief racket (works with any finesse weapon) and the class (gain expert+ with simple and enumerated weapons only).
Yes, you can. Monastic Weapons specifically states that their proficiency goes up whenever your unarmed proficiency goes up. The rogue naturally increases unarmed proficiency along with all their weapons. And weapon specialization states that you get the extra damage for any weapon or unarmed attack in which you have expert or master proficiency. There is nothing to suggest that monastic weapons would be excludes from this chain of logic at any point.
When I have some time over the next few days, I will update the guide with some of the comments that have been made so far in this thread. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.
Hey, that's brilliant!
So the logical steps are:
- At level 5 you become expert in Simple weapons.
- The Errata says if your proficiency in Simple goes up, so does your Unarmed proficiency.
- Monastic Weapons raises your proficiency in those weapons whenever your proficiency in Unarmed goes up.
- You don't get critical specialization effects unless you also take Brawling Focus.
- Weapon Specialization works with all weapons that you're Expert+ in, so that does build off of Monastic Weapons.
- Thief racket just requires Finesse weapons.
- Sneak Attack works with Finesse or Agile.
So finesse monastic weapons are excellent!
*starts scribbling character designs*
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You might want to add mention of the 'bandage spec rogue' as well: While you are technically correct that rogues are no better at Medicine checks than anyone else, the sheer number of skill upgrades and skill feats they get allows for a very quick 'down time healing build' that doesn't actually sacrifice that much.
- Level 01 - Take Assurance (Medicine) even though you won't want to use it until level 2
- Level 02 - Upgrade Medicine to Expert, take Continual Recovery
- Level 03 - Take Ward Medic
Of course, your mileage may vary significantly: For example, essentially unlimited downtime between encounters (like a '1 encounter per day while exploring' adventure) makes this largely unnecessary).
One thing to note, probably in the Monk multiclass archetype, is that the Thief racket does not gain Dex to damage with unarmed attacks, by the rules as written (and possibly intended). I believe that probably reduces the value of the Monk multiclass archetype for Thief, but it may still be the best option for a Rogue/Monk multiclass based on the later Rogue feats that key off your Racket.Monastic Weapons is the workaround here. The Nunchaku, Sai, and Fighting Fan are all Finesse, Monk weapons. So Thieves can get Dex to damage with them, deliver Sneak Attack damage with them, and use them with Monk abilities like Ki Strike and Flurry.
You can't get Weapon Specialization with Monastic Weapons, but at least you can get Critical Specialization by taking Brawling Focus.I feel like the rogue is kinda pushed away from multiclassing because he only gets weapon specialization and critical specialization with the weapons the core rogue class gives you.
There's a mismatch between the thief racket (works with any finesse weapon) and the class (gain expert+ with simple and enumerated weapons only).
Yes, you can. Monastic Weapons specifically states that their proficiency goes up whenever your unarmed proficiency goes up. The rogue naturally increases unarmed proficiency along with all their weapons. And weapon specialization states that you get the extra damage for any weapon or unarmed attack in which you have expert or master proficiency. There is nothing to suggest that monastic weapons would be excludes from this chain of logic at any point.
When I have some time over the next few days, I will update the guide with some of the comments that have been made so far in this thread. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions.
Nice catch! My memory was that it was specific to the class weapons. I'm glad to be proven wrong.
thanks. great guide
Thanks I appreciate your guide.
You might like to consider Unconventional Weaponry for the human ish rogue.
It can get you a martial weapon as a simple weapon providing you can get your GM to agree it is culturally appropriate.
This will enable you to pick up something like the Whip 1d4S with Disarm, Finesse, Nonlethal, Reach, Trip
Which I think could be very nice for the right Rogue.
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I'm not sure if unconventional weaponry works 100%. Because of the phrase:
You gain access to that weapon, and for the purpose of determining your proficiency, that weapon is a simple weapon.
It doesn't become a simple weapon for all purposes; just for the purpose of proficiency.
So I don't think you get all the benefits of weapon tricks:
When you critically succeed at an attack roll against a flat-footed creature while using an agile or finesse simple weapon or any of the listed weapons, you apply the critical specialization effect for the weapon you’re wielding.
So you get some of the benefits but you miss out on critical specialization effects. You might be willing to give that up though, because getting some reach on your thief is pretty sweet.
You do. It says: "while using an agile or finesse simple weapon".
Unconventional Weaponry only lets you count the weapon as simple for the purpose of proficiency, not other things.
True. But this is exactly the same as the other racial weapon familiarly ancestry feats.
The difference being there is no follow up racial feat to give you the critical specialisation effect. But for the marital classes you can in some circumstances get it from the class itself so it's not always needed. Which is the case here.
Either way, the whip was a moot point. The Unconventional Weaponry feat specifically states that the chosen weapon must be an uncommon weapon, which the whip is not.
There are a few to many 'or's and a paired adjective, but I agree Unconventional Weaponry only works on uncommon weapons
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So do the racial feats work the same? Thinking specifically dogslicer for a goblin. Do they need the 5th level ancestry feat for the critical effect? Curious how that works. And also because after this Thursday I will be 5th level...
They work the same. Whether that means you need the Ancestry Feat for Crit Specialty stuff depends on your Class.
So as a Rogue, yes you'd need the 5th level Ancestry Feat for the critical effect.
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Here's an idea to get you started.
Play as an elf. Grab Nimble Elf and Fleet. Use a Sai as your main weapon. Then take feats like this:
1. Nimble Roll
2. Monk Dedication
4. Monastic Weaponry
6. Gang Up
8. Monk Moves
10. Monk's FlurryYour tactics now look as follows: Start combat from ambush. Run 50 ft. to the nearest enemy. Stab them in the kidneys twice (inflict the -10 ft. speed debilitation). Run 50 ft. back. Repeat throughout combat. You inflict sneak attack on any enemy, as long as they're engages with another party member.
Who needs defenses when the enemy will never reach you?
This is an interesting build, but the Monk Dedication requires 14 STR at 1st level, which is really bad for a Thief Rogue.
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So do the racial feats work the same? Thinking specifically dogslicer for a goblin. Do they need the 5th level ancestry feat for the critical effect? Curious how that works. And also because after this Thursday I will be 5th level...They work the same. Whether that means you need the Ancestry Feat for Crit Specialty stuff depends on your Class.
So as a Rogue, yes you'd need the 5th level Ancestry Feat for the critical effect.
Yeah it seems to me that the rogue class is noticeably stingy towards weapons acquired from other sources than the main class, even if those weapons are "rogueish", such as dogslicers (which even have the backstabber trait).
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What do you all think about the new class feats archetypes from the APG? Are any of them particularly exciting for the rogue? I find the duelist archetype to be interesting in particular.
The general problem with adding an archetype to a rogue is that rogues have a lot of good feat options already, so taking an archetype feat is probably costing you something you really wanted to take.
Free Archetype /wink
What would people recommend when using the free archetype variant?
It looks like swashbuckler (fencer) overlaps nicely with Scoundrel as you will be feinting anyway. Stacking the finisher and sneak by level 4 seems nice
My initial exposure to trying to feint has been not being successful at it. But mostly very bad rolling. And flanking is quite easy as we are a party of 6. So I might change my character (GM using PFS style flexible rules for the first level)
If I changed to thief I still think I would keep similar stats for social skills (agents of edgewatch) and might even carry on with swashbuckler as an archetype (if Thief). But not sure what else
Which archetypes mesh well with Ruffian out of the new ones (in people's view?)
Edit: For Edgewatch if I switch to Ruffian I am looking at Dandy for 3 Expert skills at level 2. Then stat boost at level 5 to Dex allows qualification for Swashbuckler - Braggart at Level 6
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What do you all think about the new class feats archetypes from the APG? Are any of them particularly exciting for the rogue? I find the duelist archetype to be interesting in particular.
The general problem with adding an archetype to a rogue is that rogues have a lot of good feat options already, so taking an archetype feat is probably costing you something you really wanted to take.
Scout and Assassin both stood out to me as potentially useful for a scoundrel rogue, but primarily because you can get value with low investment.
Assassin you're literally only taking the dedication for Mark for Death, though how useful that will be will be game dependent.
Scout dedication is basically a freebie as Scout's Warning is already a rogue feat, getting it with bonuses is nice (if you were considering it already), and then Scout's Charge offers some valuable action economy. (And it also has some other feats that give action economy for being sneaky, like Hide Sneak Sneak for 2 actions when you want to just disappear)
I think assassin is all around a terrible archetype for players. There are far too many prerequisites for very little gain in the archetype, and the requirements for Mark of Death, seeing and hearing the target and using three actions, really limits the usability in all but the most intrigue-heavy games. In most cases, Mark of Death will require taking a round of combat to use, which is far better spent doing something useful. Even with the other feats, all almost necessitating a marked prey, only give bonuses that are fairly minor for extremely high opportunity cost in comparison to straight rogue. For instance, Assassinate increases damage by 6d6 damage (2d8 (elven curveblade)+2d6 (sneak attack)+2d6 (rune damage)+4 +6d6 (assassinate)+2 (backstabber) maximum non-crit damage at level 12)and instantly kills an enemy on a failed fortitude save at the cost of five total actions (a round and two-thirds) and needing to be completely unnoticed. In comparison a non-thief rogue with 10 strength who over those five turns could deal 8d4 (dagger) + 8d6 (sneak attack) + 8d6 (rune damage) with only two attacks each round, a little over 1/3 average damage to a high HP of a level 12 creature. With assassinate requiring a fortitude save, generally the highest for all creatures, the assassin is not really a worthwhile archetype.
Sorry for the rambling. I was really looking forward to the assassin archetype, and what I received is utter garbage. I cannot imagine most tables being suitable for the assassin whatsoever.
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For a rogue, I just don't see the value in most of these. Yes, I agree that rogues can get marks fairly easily, but from a practical perspective while in a group, the uses for assassin are very negligible for the entirety of the game. Most targets for Mark of Death will either be bosses or critical NPCs, maybe 5% of all combats. A vast majority of combats are also against multiple foes, so using Mark of Death would be a waste of time and actions because using those actions to eliminate enemies with targets is far faster.
For three actions, Mark of Death with its benefits is definitely not solid. 1 point of damage and deadly can be gained through weapons, and while the bonus to feinting is nice, it is not so great as to warrant choosing the assassin dedication over Mobility or another first level rogue feat, which are almost all very useful.
The triggers are what make this a far worse feat for me. I was displeased with the dedication before realizing sight and hearing are necessary. Mark for Death is not worth it while exchanging blows, which we agree on. However, while six seconds is not a lot of time, in the game, it is. Also, 60ft with little or no sound may be fine, but 60ft in a crowded market or between rooms is still quite the distance. And it is very GM dependent. Mark of Death just seems like a worse Hunt Prey.
Getting within range of a target shouldn't be difficult for a rogue; however, PF2e is a group game. I prefer having everyone in the group involved in whatever we are doing, so having a solo mission is not really appealing for me or most players who are stuck waiting for the one-man show, I would imagine. Again, doing so much setup for one target out of many is not really practical for most games, at least as far as I've gotten into the APs and in homebrew games.
I could definitely see the rogue scouting ahead while the party does other things, but in most dungeons I have seen, creatures are cordoned off by doors. And the rogue going through the entire dungeon is not really that exciting for the rest of the party who want to explore it together. If the group does go together with the rogue opening the doors, they would all need to be stealthy. In one group, that is a fair tactic, but in most, my groups' characters are doing different exploration activities.
Out of the entire dedication, there is only one almost useful feat. Assassinate is not that great. It requires Mark of Death and to be unnoticed, which means a disguise ploy will never work. I've already mentioned the negligible damage (with a basic save) and effect (which is only useful against equal and lower level creatures). This is not to mention that this feat comes online at level 12, when rogue feats receive the biggest upgrade; also, rogues have a far easier assassination ability at level 19, which has better triggers, action economy, and debuffs. Yes, level 19 is far higher than level 12, but I am willing to bet that Master Strike sees more use than assassinate in most campaigns.
None of the feats in the Assassin archetype really help to facilitate being an assassin. Everything the assassin can do can be better done with other archetypes: ranger, shadowdancer, poisoner, or even bounty hunter. In a solo game, I could see the assassin archetype being very useful or even in a video game (I would love if Larian Studios did a Pathfinder 2e game). However, it is extremely underwhelming in a group game, especially when there are so many other archetypes or even feats that are more useful in every situation.
I am beyond irritated because I was hoping like everything else, Paizo would make the Assassin a fun class (I did not like any other iteration of it in other games), but it ended up being more of the same. I only bought the APG for three archetypes, and thankfully, the shadowdancer is good, but I was mildly disappointed with Dual Weapon Warrior.
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If you really want to make the Assassin work, the Investigator is a better base than the the Rogue anyway. Having devise a strategem reveal "well, I wasn't going to roll well" give you 3 actions for mark for death and the "hey, that's a 20" setting up assassinate is a better assassin tool than anyone else gets.
I honestly like that the Assassin is kind of rubbish in an actual dungeon, and is hyperspecialized in "killing a specific person".
Talisman Dabbler seems like a potentially reasonable fit for any Scoundrel. Scoundrel works well with Mesmerizing Opals, and even just the dedication feat allows for a few a day starting at level 4.
On some level, you're basically just trading class feats for money, and not even all that much money if you're only making Mesmerizing Opals. I haven't run the numbers on how much Mesmerizing Opal money you expect to save over the course of your career, but it seems potentially significant early on.
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I admit that I'm not sure what exactly you were expecting the class to do. If you just want a nimble warrior who is good at taking down a single target, then perhaps check out the Duelist archetype.
Bringing up the whole three actions thing is somewhat irrelevant, since I'm of the firm opinion that placing the mark should never be done in combat to begin with. Also, there's no need for the target to have any significance. As long as you can briefly observe them, you can pick any random mook as your target. There's no limit or expiry on the ability.
I don't expect a rogue to map out the whole dungeon by themselves. But if there's a rogue in the party, I would expect them to sneak up to the next room, glance inside and then gesture for the party to proceed or halt if there are enemies ahead. All the assassin has to do is peek for 6 seconds more. Yes, if the whole dungeon is completely cordoned off by crackless doors that cannot be opened an inch without anyone noticing, then scouting is indeed of limited use, but that's not my personal experience.
As for groups, there's no reason why the abilities are less useful. When you're fighting a group of, say, four goblins, the fight is the hardest in the first two or three rounds. Once one goblin goes down, the fight becomes easier, as the enemy damage goes down by 25% and there are fewer opportunities for flanking or one running off to harass your casters. Once two goblins are down, assuming your own guys are still standing, the fight becomes trivial and you're just mopping up the leftovers.
So if our hypothetical assassin got a pick at the four goblins, she can just pick one at random and focus on taking that one down as quick and hard as possible. Sure, you're not going to renew it after that, but it already did its job at that point. Assassinate just helps in this regard by making the takedown faster.
Is the assassin the best possible archetype? No, it isn't, but I honestly do not believe that it is useless or terrible. Taking the dedication at level...
I can understand your point, but it does not make the assassin seem any better for me at all. I think it has far too much in the moment setup and too little flexibility. My idea of an assassin comes from other media: movies, video games, and novels that are not strictly tabletop based. I also compare it to other available options. My definition of assassin is someone who is stealthy, knowledgeable, skilled, and lethal, being the most efficient person at killing someone and getting the job done while dealing with different unexpected variables. For stealthy and skilled, I think the dedication feat prerequisites covers that, despite my disagreement with the necessity of having poison crafting. Assassinate, if it didn't have the mark of death requirement and necessitating being unnoticed, would also be a good feat. Almost all of the others are not particularly worth it for a rogue.
Also, for a rogue, I think levels 2 and 4 are not the highlight for feats; however, I think the rogue has far better assassin-quality skills than the assassin available for those levels: underhanded assault, mobility, battle assessment, and predictable. At 6, the rogue can get Analyze Weakness. At 8, there is tactical entry. At 10, the thief has precise debilitations and sneak savant, spring from the shadows at 12, instant opening at 14, and hidden paragon at 20. I think all of these are better assassin feats than what are offered by the assassin. That is not to mention what is available for the rogue with other archetypes, such as the poisoner's Poisoner's Twist, the ranger's Monster Hunter or Hunter's Aim, or almost anything from the shadowdancer.
In the assassin, I was looking for something closer to Dragon Age, Kylar Stern, or at least Darius Kincaid. I don't see how those aren't done far better through other means. I still think the assassin is worthless, at least in an adventuring party. I don't see much point in continuing this conversation, however.
Just dedication I wouldn't take any.
Free Archetype I like fighter dedication for numerous rogue build's. Like mastermind you can take the single action strike that lets you recall knowledge by level 4. A often cited dead level for many rogues.
Snagging strike is good for any non dual wield rogue, especially one where you might have issues getting multiple sneak attacks.
Ruffian with a longspear and lunge stance is pretty good too. Especially with gang up.
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I have very limited play experience with PF2e, how frequent are things like opportunity attacks from enemies? I'm considering whether to take Mobility at 2 or to take the scout dedication.
I have 30 feet of movement so being able to move 15 feet w/out worrying about opportunity attacks seems solid.
Buuut I also like Scout's charge a lot as a level 4 feat. I have Overextending feint as a level 1 feat so it has some synergy.
AoO (and simialr things) are decently rare (less than 10% of monsters at low levels, going up to more like 15% or even close to 20% at high levels) and usually fairly predictable as to who will have them (it's mostly giants, dragons, some extraplanar creatures, and humanoid-shaped opponents wielding weapons and wearing armor ie: Fighters in effect if not in name).