Venture-Lieutenant, Nebraska—Bellevue
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As a frequent GM for PFS, I enthusiastically pick up Flip Maps for scenarios I run. I love the time-saving factor of not having to draw a map ahead of time. But I've been hesitant to jump on board with the map-tiles. They seem to produce relatively simple maps I can duplicate easily.
All that said, I had a chance to sit in as a player in PFS2 1-06, Lost on the Spirit Road last weekend. Here we ran into a new complaint with the map tiles. Dead time. The GM ran the scenario through the first encounter (flip map) and then we got to the next map. We had to stop everything for 10-15 min, while the GM sorted through his box of tiles and laid out the 20 tile required for a simple forest trail setup. During that dead time, players wandered off, spent time on their cell phones and generally disconnected.
Then, after what turned out to be a quick encounter, The GM had to stop the game again for 10-15 minutes to set up the next encounter. Now he had to sort through the tiles on the table, the tiles in the box and set up a new 20 tile map. Again, more dead time for the players to disconnect from the game.
In both cases, I stayed and helped the GM sort through the tiles. But we lost the attention of the players twice in the scenario. Is this the experience other players and GMs are having? As a GM, I'm planning not to get the tiles at this point and pre-draw those maps.
For organized play authors (and team members who may select maps), please consider how much dead time is required for the large tile maps.
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I pull out the map tiles I need for a scenario in advance and keep them in one of the plastic 'cover sheets' of a given scenario's 'booklet'.
Pruning the tiles down from an entire box to 'just those needed' typically drops the 'transition time' to about five minutes, especially if I roughly pre-set the tiles between flipmat layers to hold their rough position.
If a different section of the scenario reuses the tiles then I can somewhat more easily access them, as well.
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Since I do not as of yet own any of these, the PDFs make it seem like they are all labeled/numbered?
If so, you could note down which tile goes where in the layout, which should speed things up a little.
The worst time I had was with the map packs for 8-99... the tiles were laced out in different directions there were gaps (which is why there was the need for a flip mat below them).
So, my suggestion to authors and developers... don’t get tricksy with these... lay them out in simple patterns, so that GMs can easily replicate your layouts. We are easing reusable assets to make our lives easier... if it gets too hard to lay them out, we will be better off just hand drawing on blank flip mats, and thus we’d lose the wonderful visual impact we get with the map packs and dungeon tiles.
Also, when developing, please do not use multiple packs of dungeon tiles... at $30 per pack, they get really expensive to use fast!
Personally, I am more likely to buy one if it is used... if a scenario costs me an additional $90 to run, I will find alternatives for the maps.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Here we ran into a new complaint with the map tiles. Dead time. The GM ran the scenario through the first encounter (flip map) and then we got to the next map. We had to stop everything for 10-15 min, while the GM sorted through his box of tiles and laid out the 20 tile required for a simple forest trail setup. During that dead time, players wandered off, spent time on their cell phones and generally disconnected.
This is really a problem with the GM's preparation not being good, not with the tiles.
The tiles are all numbered
Ideally the scenario uses the numbering, but even if it doesn't then as GM you can write down the numbers ahead of time. One scenario I just ran includes this line:
This river uses the following tiles Pathfinder Flip-Tiles: Forest Perils Expansion from top to bottom: 07A, 08A, 06A, and 10A.
If the scenario doesn't include that line, just write it in the margin during your session prep.
The box has tabs
Although those may be intended to separate the various supplementary parts of the set. But they can be used to separate the stack into 7 layers. You could sort the tiles you need for an encounter into one stack.
You can put tiles into an envelope or accordion folder
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Keeping a collection of fliptiles organized and sorted takes some work, but using them smoothly at the table is really not that hard. I think 5 minutes is already long for deployment.
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I would just like to add that using the tiles is a complete pain for those of us who run online. You have to extract each tile individually and then crop them so they actually fit together which adds significantly to the time spent prepping things. I much prefer flip maps.
My views are much the same for running face to face, tiles are just fiddly and annoying to use and are far less stable than a flip mat. I would hapily see these horrible things go away.
Having done the maps for 1-11, I have to agree with you!
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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My main complaint about the tiles is keeping them together. I have 8"X11" plexiglass sheets that I put on top of tiles after they are arranged.
I have been looking for something that can be used to hold them together, but have not found anything.
Using tape is a bad idea. I saw one GM use bits of putty to stick the tiles to a flip map. That did work out well.
But there is no really easy way to setup the tiles before the table.
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1-06 I had a specific issue with because the Flip tiles are used twice in that and both the second time they use maps from the first time so you can't easily set them up in the right order.
I think the tiles are usable but please don't use the same tiles more then once in one scenario.
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Venture-Captain, Australia—NSW—Greater West
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I use D&D tiles once in a while but only bring the ones I need and have them alreasy in order to lay down left to right & top to bottom. I use a non-slip bar mat to lay them on so they don't slide around. I set them up before the game & place any flip-mats on top.
What do you mean by a non slip bar mat? Sounds like a good investment if it keeps those tricksy map tiles from roaming.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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Having done the maps for 1-11, I have to agree with you!I would just like to add that using the tiles is a complete pain for those of us who run online. You have to extract each tile individually and then crop them so they actually fit together which adds significantly to the time spent prepping things. I much prefer flip maps.
My views are much the same for running face to face, tiles are just fiddly and annoying to use and are far less stable than a flip mat. I would hapily see these horrible things go away.
Its for me a complete mystery why they use the fliptile files which have the bleed for printing, which results in the weird half squares at the edges.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I use D&D tiles once in a while but only bring the ones I need and have them alreasy in order to lay down left to right & top to bottom. I use a non-slip bar mat to lay them on so they don't slide around. I set them up before the game & place any flip-mats on top.What do you mean by a non slip bar mat? Sounds like a good investment if it keeps those tricksy map tiles from roaming.
I'm guessing he means the sort of thing you have in a bar to put glasses on? Usually made of a kind of non-slip fabric. There's various kinds, some are a a lot like mousepads.
I hadn't thought of using bar mats, but it's an interesting idea. They can usually be rolled up so they're pretty portable. What would be seriously awesome would be to get one printed with a Golarion map on it, so you can start the briefing with a "you are here".
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I use D&D tiles once in a while but only bring the ones I need and have them alreasy in order to lay down left to right & top to bottom. I use a non-slip bar mat to lay them on so they don't slide around. I set them up before the game & place any flip-mats on top.
Can you link where to find this? I have been looking for this as well but have had not success finding one.
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I used non-slip rug pads once upon a time, myself.
I used to try and use the raw map packs but I haven't in a long time. Nowadays, I stitch the tiles together digitally, and print them out like a custom map. Even labeled and sorted, it takes time to lay out a pad and set the individual tiles down. And then someone inevitably catches one of the tiles on the edge of a mini's base and the whole thing comes undone! (Yeah, there's the acrylic sheet, but my back's more than a little screwed up, and I need to carry less to game days, not more!) Getting the tiles into a format where I can treat them like another flip-mat just works so much better.
I haven't had trouble stitching them together digitally unless I'm doing so from a scenario--for some reason the scenario PDFs seem to use the un-trimmed tiles as the source images, so I import mine from the PDF into GIMP. It keeps some stuff I would have rather gotten rid of (like watermarks) but on the other hand it keeps me sane. Are you guys extracting the raw images from the PDF, is that how you're ending up with the bleed?
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I would suggest to scenario writers to not make a full-sized flip map out of the tiles. The tiles are good if smaller mapes, say 3 X 3 or 4 X 4.
But when you need to use 5 X 5 or 6 X 6 for an encounter that might only use a total of 3 tiles, it is a little much.
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Cheaper would be something like this.
non-slip shelf paper
I have found cheaper rolls at a dollar store in the past... just something to increase friction under the tiles.
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Its for me a complete mystery why they use the fliptile files which have the bleed for printing, which results in the weird half squares at the edges.Having done the maps for 1-11, I have to agree with you!I would just like to add that using the tiles is a complete pain for those of us who run online. You have to extract each tile individually and then crop them so they actually fit together which adds significantly to the time spent prepping things. I much prefer flip maps.
My views are much the same for running face to face, tiles are just fiddly and annoying to use and are far less stable than a flip mat. I would hapily see these horrible things go away.
Totally this.
This isn't just the corners, in the scenarios they are arranged in such a way that you get these odd stripes between tiles.
Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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Cheaper would be something like this.
non-slip shelf paperI have found cheaper rolls at a dollar store in the past... just something to increase friction under the tiles.
That's pretty much exactly what I use. It's not paper, though. It's rubbery.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I've got to admit that every time map tiles come up, I check to see if there is something in my flip mat collection that is close enough for substitution purposes. I think I'll get more excited with them when they start featuring more unique parts.
Hmm
PS PRO-TIP: If you really do need to use a map tile or map pack, set them up on either the non-slippery bar mat or a large chessex hex map, and then put clear vinyl sheeting on top. The tiles will stay in place, and you can change other maps on top of them until they are needed. I like to set them up before the scenario starts so there are no pauses.
This was how I survived the map pack in 8-99. I never want to see two flip tiles or map packs in a special though... too much fuss to change when you are trying to shift maps quickly!
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Premier Event Coordinator
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I’m in favor of anything that the author will believe better represents their vision for the encounter. If that is a flip mat, great. It’s the easiest thing to manage. I would rather see prolific use of flip tiles than an increase in custom maps. Nothing in OP is a greater expense than custom maps. I know they have their uses and sometimes they are inevitable because of the specifics of an encounter, but there is a reason our convention GMs grumble when they see custom maps in special scenarios.
IMO, this just comes down to prep. As others have said, have the specific tiles you’ll need separated so you don’t have to flip through the entire box. The new version tiles are numbered so you should be able to quickly set up the map you want. If you are some one that has the pdf, you can print the ones you need in advance, cut them out and tape them together. It saves a lot of time at the table.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Nebraska—Bellevue
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Thanks guys. It's nice to see I'm not alone in my complaint and it's useful to see how some of you are using the tiles.
As Jack implies above, the cost of all the tiles will lead me to a cost vs benefit analysis. I think that alone will lead me to just drawing those maps.
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Premier Event Coordinator
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Don’t be afraid to use a map that is “almost” the same as what’s indicated in the scenario. For example, if the scenario calls for the forest tiles, you can easily substitute one of the classic forest flip mats. It’s not identical, but it gets the job done. I’ve been know to do that, especially if I don’t own the precise map and it’s for a convention away from home. Sometimes pragmatism outweighs perfection.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Some combats really rely on the precise details of a flipmat. Others just need something that looks like a tavern. And Paizo clearly has a drinking problem, considering the amount of different but really not all that different tavern flipmats.
Contributor
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I've got to admit that every time map tiles come up, I check to see if there is something in my flip mat collection that is close enough for substitution purposes.
^ This.
I cannot think of a single GM living within a 2-hour drive of me who has reported anything other than dislike for the map tiles since they came out, and almost all of the GMs in my home lodge do the above.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I've got to admit that every time map tiles come up, I check to see if there is something in my flip mat collection that is close enough for substitution purposes.^ This.
I cannot think of a single GM living within a 2-hour drive of me who has reported anything other than dislike for the map tiles since they came out, and almost all of the GMs in my home lodge do the above.
I personally do like them, at least in theory - I haven't used them much in practice yet. Throwing down a flipmat is pretty easy.
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Venture-Captain, Wisconsin—Franklin
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I recently rain Flames of Rebellion (1-11). The buy-in price to use the dungeon tiles and the complexity of the maps made them redundant compared to just doodling everything quickly. I'm adverse to buying flip mats in general, but I don't mind dropping the 15 bucks for either a more complex map or one that comes up a lot.
A $90 dollar buy in for the dungeon tiles seems beyond absurd to put into a scenario. There's enough forest maps out there for a more reasonable price point and the dungeon built from the tiles that it was simple enough to draw in a our traditional 10 minute break to run next door and order food.
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Premier Event Coordinator
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I cannot think of a single GM living within a 2-hour drive of me who has reported anything other than dislike for the map tiles since they came out, and almost all of the GMs in my home lodge do the above.
I am very near that two-hour window and I love the map tiles. They are an improvement over the former map packs, IMO. YMMV
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So, I see in quest #7 they used the forest starter set flip-tiles
Complaints?
1) they do not label which tiles are used (makes it hard to determine which ones are used)
2) the map in the quest has the bleed for printing in the laid out map, giving about 1/4” extra around each tile. This makes it harder to see what we need.
3) the whole thing is set up to make it hard to extract the images for the maps out of the adventure. (Each tile is a separate image. This was not done with the map packs)
I am likely going to use a different flip mat for this... just so not worth the effort. :(
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I really liked the idea of the flip tiles because they allow for more variety compared to flip-mats. However, my experience with running Lost on the Spirit Road was not ideal. A few of the suggestions I would make have been made already, but I'll place them here anyway in case scenario writers are reading along.
All of this in my opinion, of course:
- Tiles work best for small maps, when only a few need to be placed. That also helps separate their use compared to (large) flip-mats.
- Having more than one encounter with tiles in a scenario is stretching it. Re-using tiles for different encounters of the same scenario is a definite no-go!
- Limit the amount of packs needed for any single scenario, to make the buy-in more palatable.
- I haven't needed to use them for running a game online, but easy copy-paste would definitely be a plus!
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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- Re-using tiles for different encounters of the same scenario is a definite no-go!
I don't see this as an issue and actually a benefit. Fewer tiles to have to keep track of is good in my mind. Don't forget, there are two sides so it may make sense to use the other side in a different part of the adventure.
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- Re-using tiles for different encounters of the same scenario is a definite no-go!I don't see this as an issue and actually a benefit. Fewer tiles to have to keep track of is good in my mind. Don't forget, there are two sides so it may make sense to use the other side in a different part of the adventure.
Using the other side would be a no again. Because when I prepare with tiles I out them already in order. All I have left is to drop them on the table. If I needed a tiles whatever the side on a second map for the same scenario it kind of make it longer to prepare I have to make sure to grab those from the layout.
Plus I like to drop all the maps ahead on the table so the top one hide etc and it a better flow
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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Ok can see the flow concept. I like doing that as well when I can.
But I don't see a problem with the tiles being used for a second encounter.
What is a bigger problem is using 20+ tiles on two different encounters when only 6 of the tiles are actually used. That must be avoided in the future.
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Venture-Captain, Colorado—Denver
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Ok can see the flow concept. I like doing that as well when I can.
But I don't see a problem with the tiles being used for a second encounter.
What is a bigger problem is using 20+ tiles on two different encounters when only 6 of the tiles are actually used. That must be avoided in the future.
That is precisely what happened in 1-06 though. They use a bunch of the same tiles, and since the tiles need to be oriented in certain directions, you can certainly save time by pre-laying out your first map in your box, but that second map is still a pain to lay out. When we ran this again last night, I let the GM borrow my stuff (he stepped up to GM last minute after the previous GM had to cancel). I didn't bring him my flip tiles, just a blank flipmat. He drew a rough approximation in about 30 seconds. If he had used the tiles, even pre-arranged, it would have taken quite a bit more time.
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I did 1-11 Flames of Rebellion at a Con recently. Somebody had their complete collection of flip mats and map tiles there for us to use. When the map tiles were offered to me, I jumped on the offer. I had just been planning on drawing it out on a blank map. But anybody who has GM’ed or played it can attest that the tiles make it much better for at least that scenario. This being my 1st experience with the tiles, I have to say that they are very fiddly and left a bad taste. Easy to bump and move around. Using the same one multiple time in the scenario, flipping through them trying to find the right one. Just not a fan.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
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Definitely not a fan of tiles myself.
1) They're time consuming to set up and organize
2) They feel fiddly and cheap
3) They tend to move around easily when you move miniatures
4) The terrain is so bland and generic, that you're better off just drawing it or using a similar-looking flip mat.
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Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha
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I did 1-11 Flames of Rebellion at a Con recently. Somebody had their complete collection of flip mats and map tiles there for us to use. When the map tiles were offered to me, I jumped on the offer. I had just been planning on drawing it out on a blank map. But anybody who has GM’ed or played it can attest that the tiles make it much better for at least that scenario. This being my 1st experience with the tiles, I have to say that they are very fiddly and left a bad taste. Easy to bump and move around. Using the same one multiple time in the scenario, flipping through them trying to find the right one. Just not a fan.
The key to the the tiles being helpful on this adventure is the fact that there were not more than 8 were needed, maybe even 6 (I don't recall the exact number). And if memory serves, there were two different encounters using tiles, but both encounters used a small number of tiles. I don't know if the same tile was used again or not.