They're different things, not different approaches to the same thing. The wizard / rogue / arcane trickster is a spellcaster who likes sneak attacks with ranged spells. A vanilla rogue can be made to do skills and mundane melee well, and may have a wand or two for buffs. An eldritch scoundrel is best as skills supplemented by spells, and a brief nova of melee ability.
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That meshes with what ive seen but thats all this is X, that is Y they dont really bother with how well they do the roles they take on which is what im looking for. How well does Eldritch Scoundrel functiom in the role its after, how well does a rogue/wizard/eldritch scoundrel function as a rogue, wizard, hybrid. If you see what i mean?
Depends how you define those roles. A rogue's role is not well defined by the game.
A rogue/wiz/AT is OK at skills but no better; is that how you define a rogue? Heavy duty spellcasting can bypass some of the need for skills though. They really shouldn't get into melee, they're not even a second-liner, is that part of the rogues role? They're just fine as wizards. As a hybrid? I don't have any idea what you're including there.
An eldritch scoundrel rogue is OK to good at skills and may have related tricks that a vanilla rogue doesn't - like invisibility without the signs of spellcasting that PF has assumed since Ultimate Intrigue. They can do melee but have less sneak attack (or rogue talents) than a vanilla rogue and tend to burn thru spells at an unsustainable rate while there; brief excursions into melee only. With 6-level spellcasting they're not great wizards. I still don't know what you're including in the description of a hybrid, but they're more like a merge of wizard and rogue than an AT.
A vanilla rogue is good at skills - not the best, that's a bard or vigilante. They can be good fighters but not the best, there's half a dozen better classes at that. Whether via items or minor/major magic they're notably poor wizards, even fighters are better wizards since item mastery feats were printed. There are specific magic tricks they can do if they're willing to sacrifice a sliver of combat ability, things like the umbral gear rogue talent, which wizards have to work to emulate. Obviously they're not naturally a hybrid of anything, but depending on what the criteria of Mr Senko are they might be made to fit.
Eldritch Scoundrel is pretty terrible. They're sort of like a crummy version of the investigator class. If you have a specific goal in mind I could probably point you to something that fills the role better than eldritch scoundrel. Some people will recommend going eldritch scoundrel then arcane trickster, but there's nothing there that's worth losing 9th level casting of a real wizard for.
Arcane trickster is a rough sell in general. It's best to play it as a wizard and then grab a source of sneak attack right before going for the archetype so you don't spend a bunch of time with mismatched abilities. Taking your rogue level at 5th level lets you grab the extra sneak dice feat at the same time, and makes the transition smooth.
I think we could provide better advice if you described what you expected your character to be able to do.
It depends on what you are looking for out of the character.
If you just want high Sneak Attack damage with a handful of magic tricks and medium BAB, then go with unchained rogue with the Minor Magic and Major Magic talents, plus possibly some other talents that grant spell-like abilities.
If you want more magic, but want to keep medium BAB, then eldritch scoundrel works pretty well. You might want to consider dipping a level or two in another class (probably one with full BAB; brawler, cad fighter, ranger, slayer, or swashbuckler) to regain proficiency in light armor and using a feat on Arcane Armor Training.
If you just want a strong melee combatant with Sneak Attack and self-buffing, then beastmorph vivisectionist alchemist is probably one of the better options.
If you want a lot of magic, then arcane trickster can work. However, it works best (IMO) as a blaster focused on damaging ranged spells that attack touch AC; not as a roguish equivalent of an eldritch knight or magus. The limitations on consistently gaining sneak attacks with ranged attacks (at least until greater invisibility) make the "best" route as sylph snakebite striker brawler 1/wizard (Evocation/Admixture specialist) 4/arcane trickster X with Cloud Gazer, Reach Spell, Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Intensified Spell, and obscuring mist to create a fog bank, stay 10 ft inside (can see out with Cloud Gazer; opponents can't see in, so they are flat-footed against the character's ranged attacks), and blast away with ranged spells like acid splash, ray of frost, Reach shocking grasp, etc. The Versatile Evocation school power lets you change the energy type of evocation spells on the fly several times per day.
thats all this is X, that is Y they dont really bother with how well they do the roles they take on which is what im looking for.
You don't find the right answers because you're asking the wrong questions. In Pathfinder, 99.9% of the time what's best depends on what exactly you want, it's impossible to make a general statement of what is "best". Also, classes don't have predetermined roles. Indeed, in Pathfinder, you don't have distinct roles in a party that you fulfill with one character - you have multiple jobs that you want handled, but those can be split up between and doubled on by different party members. While there are some jobs that usually require a certain amount of casting, most classes can fulfill a wide range of jobs. For instance, it is totally possible for a Fighter to be the "party face" (that's mainly the 'make people do what you want' job) and the "healer" (which is actually two jobs, 'HP healing' and 'condition removal', which don't have to be done by the same character) while still being a pretty good martial. It's also totally possible for a Monk to be responsible for sneaking, long-range party transportation, and figuring out whom the murder weapon belongs to.
Without knowing what jobs you want your character to fill, an answer which path is better is impossible. Class names don't carry even nearly enough information for that.
And that's without even talking about different flavors of the same job. Some people don't care how well their character performs as long as they get to roll a huge amount of Sneak Attack dice in one round once or twice per session. EldonGuyre for examples seems to enjoy the idea of a 15th level character doing 1d3+15+7d6 damage as a standard action all day long, because it fits his idea of a "trickster", others might consider that damage to be way to low because they look at the average damage and find it lacking.
Not all games are the same, either. Some are more combat-focusses, some more intrigue. In some games needing five turns to kill an average CR=character level monster would be a death sentence for the character, at other tables you might be above group average and a character who kills such an enemy in one round would diminish the fun.
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Social, chatty, slightly flashy fighter. I think i shall rule out the edritch scoundrel and continue looking at Swashbuckler thanks. Originally it was bard but this character wants to be more diplomat/secondary fighter relying on dex more thn strength. I didnt think eldritch scoundrel would work though the rlgue skills are nice but i wanted to see what people thought of them in pwrforming their normal role.
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Social, chatty, slightly flashy fighter. I think i shall rule out the edritch scoundrel and continue looking at Swashbuckler thanks. Originally it was bard but this character wants to be more diplomat/secondary fighter relying on dex more thn strength. I didnt think eldritch scoundrel would work though the rlgue skills are nice but i wanted to see what people thought of them in pwrforming their normal role.Swashbuckler is a good choice for a martial social sort of character - such a character might be possible with an Arcane Trickster, but they aren't specifically inclined for it - especially the martial part. An Unchained Rogue would do well, too, as might a few others. Again, though, Swashbuckler is a fine choice.
People keep suggesting other classes, some i can straight out say no that doesn't fit my concept but others i need to look into.
People keep suggesting other classes (...)
For exactly the reasons I explained in my post. "Social, chatty, slightly flashy fighter" can be done with probably two dozen different classes*, and there is no "best" one, because all theose classes and the different build within a class have different strengths and weaknesses.
*) And that's with using dex and charisma. The way you phrased it here, as "Social, chatty, slightly flashy fighter", is something that can probably be done with every single non-half-BAB class in the game, and a whole truckload of multiclassing and prestige class concepts.
At some point, you have to decide what you actually want. Not yet as in which class(es), but what abilities you want. It looks like you're hoping someone will tell you what's the best build for you, but as I said, what's best depends on what exactly you want, if you don't know what you want, there can be no best.
i wanted to see what people thought of them in pwrforming their normal role.
There is no such thing as a normal role. Seriously, remove that concept from your mind!
Keep in mind, that's a very minimal attack for him, stated because he gets that out of a simple cantrip.
In case it came across the wrong way, my use of your post was only meant as a (convenient) example, not as critique!
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People keep suggesting other classes (...)For exactly the reasons I explained in my post. "Social, chatty, slightly flashy fighter" can be done with probably two dozen different classes*, and there is no "best" one, because all theose classes and the different build within a class have different strengths and weaknesses.
*) And that's with using dex and charisma. The way you phrased it here, as "Social, chatty, slightly flashy fighter", is something that can probably be done with every single non-half-BAB class in the game, and a whole truckload of multiclassing and prestige class concepts.
At some point, you have to decide what you actually want. Not yet as in which class(es), but what abilities you want. It looks like you're hoping someone will tell you what's the best build for you, but as I said, what's best depends on what exactly you want, if you don't know what you want, there can be no best.
i wanted to see what people thought of them in pwrforming their normal role.There is no such thing as a normal role. Seriously, remove that concept from your mind!
Keep in mind, that's a very minimal attack for him, stated because he gets that out of a simple cantrip.In case it came across the wrong way, my use of your post was only meant as a (convenient) example, not as critique!
Oh I have a very specific idea of the character in mind. Its working out the best way to build a class that works with it which is the tricky bit especially as I rarely play martials. At this stage I need to look into magus and then I'm pretty much done. I've ruled out most of the classes for one reason or another and currently Swashbuckler (which I admit I'd never considered and apperciate having it pointed out to me) is ahead in the ones remaining even if its not the best class it works well with the character concept.
For this thread I was just after what people thought of the unchained rogue, eldritch scoundrel and arcane trickster as classes/archetypes in general not tied specifically to my concept. The only reason they even made it that far to be honest was in my initial looking into them I saw the fluff mentioning rogues can be good diplomats which I hadn't considered (very strong thief connections for me).
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Unchained rogue is pretty bad ass. I truly believe that people who think rogues are a bad class don't know how to play them.
If I recall you wanted a bodyguard type build and background correct?
Now that you aren't tied to criticals any particular weapon you envision? Whip, or something with reach?
Off top of head straight rogue is good. Scout archetype is really good.
If you're looking at maguses - the eldritch scion archetype is the only Cha-based one by Paizo, but 3rd party publishers have produced more. Unlike a normal magus an eldritch scion probably doesn't use metamagic, spontaneous spellcasting and spell combat make it difficult to use. While that cuts out some standard magus tactics they don't lack effectiveness.
An unchained rogue certainly can do the dashing swordsman thing you're talking about. A scout rogue using an elven curveblade in two hands has both image and effect on their side (and isn't using anything like a rapier). I recommend against trying to use the minor/major magic talents, they age poorly.
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Unchained rogue is pretty bad ass. I truly believe that people who think rogues are a bad class don't know how to play them.
If I recall you wanted a bodyguard type build and background correct?
Now that you aren't tied to criticals any particular weapon you envision? Whip, or something with reach?
Off top of head straight rogue is good. Scout archetype is really good.
If I did go with rogue short sword does appeal. It avoids my personal dislike of rapiers and is a weapon that's rogue like and still works for their abilities. Though longsword/dagger would also be possible as the pathfinder longsword is not the same as a real world longsword being a one handed weapon.
If you're looking at maguses - the eldritch scion archetype is the only Cha-based one by Paizo, but 3rd party publishers have produced more. Unlike a normal magus an eldritch scion probably doesn't use metamagic, spontaneous spellcasting and spell combat make it difficult to use. While that cuts out some standard magus tactics they don't lack effectiveness.
An unchained rogue certainly can do the dashing swordsman thing you're talking about. A scout rogue using an elven curveblade in two hands has both image and effect on their side (and isn't using anything like a rapier). I recommend against trying to use the minor/major magic talents, they age poorly.
If I did go with Magus it'd probably be normal one or maybe blackblade I'd just take a bit of a hit on stats till I could increase them (WotR so mythic is going to raise them more than normally available). Its not the best class given my horrible rolls for abilities though too multi-stat dependant.
Social, chatty, slightly flashy fighter.
If you want to do fighting, that immediately nixes Arcane Trickster. Aside from some very specific polymorph-based builds the Arcane Trickster is a complete lost cause as a combatant and shouldn't even bother carrying weapons. It's a spellcaster first and foremast, and if you're spending your turn in combat making weapon attacks then something has gone horribly wrong.
As for the Eldritch Scoundrel vs the standard Unchained Rogue, both are competent melee fighters. The Eldritch Scoundrel has a weaker sneak attack so it's typically not going to have the same amount of damage output as a regular rogue, but it offers a lot more utility options with its spellcasting and still has finesse training and debilitating strike so it's got a very potent presence. The one catch is that you can't cast spells with somatic components with two weapon fighting, so that combat style just isn't practical for an Eldritch Scoundrel. This forces you into two-handed finessable weapons like the elven curve blade to keep up in the damage department. Overall I feel the Eldritch Scoundrel is a very solid and versatile option with a lot of flexibility.
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I hate to say this afterall the work i put into my Swashbuckler but i think im slowly talking myself into a rogue. But what kind unchained with some of the elven weapons (their crit is nice), eldritch scoundrel with 2 handed curveblade for versatility or knifemaster with dagger that does appeal to me.
EDIT
I've talked it over with my character and she's informed me she likes the idea of being a Rogue - Knife Master over the other options (including the Swashbuckler I lovingly crafted for her) provided its mechanically viable. So I'll look into that and the scout mentioned above.
EDIT
A shame the "Marksmans Shot" requires it be used on the slayers studied target or taking that would be a requirement.
As an attack action, you make a single ranged attack at his highest attack bonus with a ranged weapon he wields. The target of the attack must be the slayer’s studied target. On a successful hit, the slayer doubles the number of sneak attack dice applied to the attack; if the attack was not a sneak attack, this benefit does not apply.
Take 20D8 sneak attack damage from my dagger. Hmmm I'm now tempted to go rogue 19/Slayer 1 just so you can study than hit them with this.
There are some nice 20th level capstones as of Chronicle of Legends IIRC. In any case that's far enough along that you'll be a single-classed rogue for a long time.
A knife master is made to do TWF obviously. It's compatible with scout if you like, but scout wants to move and do single attacks, knife master wants to stay put and do full attacks; you'll probably find the uncanny dodge more useful than the replacements from scout as a knife master. You probably want quick draw so you can shower enemies with full attacks of thrown daggers when they're just out of reach of a melee full attack.
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Special Spell Effects
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 208
Many special spell effects are handled according to the school of the spells in question. Certain other special spell features are found across spell schools.Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.
That quote's talking about what breaks invisibility, basically. The attack action still isn't the same as an action which performs an attack. There's a fair bit of precedent about vital strike if you're interested.
As someone who is actually playing an Eldritch Scoundrel in a campaign, I can honestly say they are not actually as bad as people tend to claim. While their sneak attack is only at half strength and they only get 6th level spells, they have their own strengths. Eldritch Scoundrels are meant to fill the roll of a magical thief, using spell craft to augment their stealth and subterfuge. They are not meant to be be the spell wielding sneak attack assassins that Arcane Tricksters are. However they can actually gain some benefit from going into the Arcane Trickster prC. At the cost of some of their remaining rogue talents, they get a few extra sneak attack dice, and some offensive spell utility.
If playing a straight arcane trickster, then your best bet is to go with illusion, enchantment, divination, and transmutation spells to augment your own ability. You are not a primary spell caster, your roll is to scout ahead undetected. In combat an Eldritch scoundrel excels at evasive actions, utilizing spells like vanish or blurred movement to avoid direct confrontation and position themselves to strike from the shadows.
The traditional arcane trickster on the other hand is all about their use of spells to inflict as much damage as possible. With a full casting class such as Wizard to fuel their spells they have plenty of spells to go all day. They are proficient at ranged combat, and not very effective in melee. Both Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Scoundrel are average at best when it comes to being skill monkeys.
And on the complete opposite end of the spectrum you have your standard rogue. With enough skill points to be capable of making any checks the party might need. They are highly proficient in melee and can be quite capable at short range as well. Lacking direct access to magic means they must be more cunning, sneaking into a magically fortified keep is certainly not their strong point, while both an Eldritch Scoundrel and an Arcane a trickster would have little issue with the feat.
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That quote's talking about what breaks invisibility, basically. The attack action still isn't the same as an action which performs an attack. There's a fair bit of precedent about vital strike if you're interested.
No, it's not. That quote is under the general magic rules under the Special Spell Effects title, where it covers rules not covered by school of the spell or rules that can apply over multiple schools.
The Vital Strike FAQ applies to specifically Vital Strike and Charging. Mainly they did that because Vital Strike said "You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal." And there was a big argument on whether that was flavor text or a standard action - attack. This was problem because Spring Attack was a Full-Round action and it couldn't be mediated that Vital Strike (which gives up all it's other attacks) could be done along with Spring Attack which was already a full-round action.
Nowhere in the rules does it state "attack action". There is Standard Action - Attack.
Magic rules specifically call out spells like acid splash "an attack."
Standard action rules call out attacking one time in the round "an attack"
There is no such thing as an "attack action".
If Paizo wants to clarify that, they can make a FAQ or errata specifically about adding an "attack action", not about Vital Strike or Charging with how it relates to a full-round actions.
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Knife Master archetype is not just about two-weapon fighting. It's just to make you do extra damage with light blades. You can as easily be flanking as easily as you can be throwing those daggers. The scout archetype just allows you to throw those daggers and get a sneak attack in. But the scout archetype is not a requirement for making the build. You can as easily, if the situation is right, do a full-round action to attack. One attack hits the foe in front of you which you could be flanking, if it finishes him off you can then throw your dagger at someone across 30ft and hopefully take him out, or disrupt their spellcasting.
As far as rogues not being well defined by the game, I don't believe that at all. As a social construct they can be just about anything effectively without giving up much in combat prowess. I like to use a portion of the core rule book description when it states; "Thieves and gamblers, fast talkers and diplomats, bandits and bounty hunters, and explorers and investigators all might be considered rogues, as well as countless other professions that rely upon wits, prowess, or luck." That is such a myriad of variations that I believe it gives the player the most flexibility in creating what they want barring a professional magic user. But even then they make GREAT UMD skill users. As far as an adventuring view, they have always been defined as the guy/gal that opens the locks and springs the traps... something that overtime has been moved away from. Which is not a bad thing per-say because some people don't want their rogues to be thieves or bandits. In Combat, their the opportunistic go lucky combatant. "FIREBALL" - Nope. "GRAPPLE" - Nope. Yeah, they aren't going to win toe to toe with a fighter, but only dorks go toe to toe with the fighter. Drop the chandelier on his arse! Or make him chase you through a ledge... or drown him. You know what happens to a full-plate fighter hen their strength score goes down? Yeah... poisons can be handy... if expensive.
Granted you're not going to be able to do all that at top effectiveness. But you're going to be able to do it all at better efficiency than the other classes that aren't supposed to do anything else.
Take fighter... yeah you can make him a party face. But at what cost? One of your stats is going to suffer because you now have to put into charisma. You have to give up a trait to make diplomacy a class skill. You're going to have to use feats to make that skill really be top notch. In the mean time... you forgot how to ride a horse... or swim... and climbing... and surviving. Things that one would think a professional soldier would do very well. One of my biggest grievances with the fighter class is that low amount of skill points they receive for what they do. Hence why I love that Starfinder condensed a lot of the skills.
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There is no such thing as an "attack action".
"Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action" APG pg. 134
So according to you, the ability refers to something that doesn't exist.
*blink*
Seriously, this is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heared. I'm the first one to say that Paizos different uses of the word "attack" are stupid and confusing, but saying a phrase that appears multiple times throughout the rules didn't exist is ludicrous.
Nowhere in the rules does it state "attack action".
"(see the attack action on page 182)." CRB pg. 178
(attack action stuff)
This is a very old argument--one of the oldest on the site, in fact--and it's long settled. Relitigating it now isn't likely to be constructive. Do whatever works for your table.
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no it states "attack" "action" not "attack action". It saying the action of attacking. Not the defined "attack action" with its own set of rules.
"(see the attack action on page 182)." CRB pg. 178
You're going to have to quote that because I don't see what section you are talking about where it defines an attack action as it own separate action.
However let me point out the Sunder combat maneuver.
Sunder
Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 201
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
There we see precedence that the attack action (the action of attack) can take the place of an attack conducted during the Standard Action Attack or the Full-Round Action - Full Attack.
Therefore it highlights that the "attack action" is not a defined action, its just an action with intent to harm.
Oh I have a very specific idea of the character in mind.
It would be helpful to tell us this specific idea, you know? Because unless I've missed a post somewhere, you only really gave us a few keywords. And I must say, your phobia against deity-related stuff that I don't think anyone here understands doesn't help.
The only reason they even made it that far to be honest was in my initial looking into them I saw the fluff mentioning rogues can be good diplomats which I hadn't considered (very strong thief connections for me).
You should discard both. The class description is at best an overview over a generic character of that class, so that people who lack the imagination to come up with their own concept can build such a character, and at worst they're outright bull s+$#. The "role" section is especially prone to being utterly wrong.
A good diplomat is something that literally every class in the game can be.
And as for your flavor presumptions... well, mechanically, the Rogue is actually the opposite of how it's commonly viewed (and oh-so-often made like). To most people, a Rogue is a loner, stealthy, good at many things, and a master of precice, deadly attacks. A Pathfinder Rogue, however is extremly dependent on teamwork *, is not particular good at skills (and especially not at the stuff you want to use skills for) **, way worse at stealth than almost any arcane caster, and can't hit the broad side of a barn without an ally on the other side of it saying "strike this way" ***.
*) Flanking is the best way to get Sneak Attack, and Unchained Rogue's main Debilitating Injury is only really a good thing if others profit from it.
**) Sure, a Rogue has a lot of skill ranks, but I presume that a big number in "total skill points" in the character sheet is not the ultimate goal - the ultimate goal is to be good at many things. Yes, he has more skill points to put in climb, stealth etc. than a Sorcerer, but that guy can simply use Spider Climb/Fly and Invisibility. Also, he doesn't have the attributes for a good charisma without crippling his combat capability, so he'll never be as good a suave, charismatic guy as for instance a bard.
***) Despite the main damage source being "precision damage", the rogue is extremly geared towards many inaccurate attacks. Even more so for Unchained Rogue (which is a straight upgrade but doesn't really fix the problems).
Now, you aren't looking for a stealthy character who does actual sneaky attacks/backstabs, but a bit of the opposite, i.e. a flashy fighting style. That makes the Rogue a way better class for you than for, say, your default emo teen.
You should, however, be wary that the class has a lot of weaknesses. Bad save progression on the two main saving throws, d8 HD with no little defensive ability (because you need Debilitating Injury for accuracy), no accuracy boost until you've actually hit something (and even than it's fairly weak), huge dependancy on Sneak Attack to be useful in combat, and nothing that helps against the usual banes of melee characters (flying/unreachable enemies, invisible/hidden enemies etc.).
Now, none of these things are unfixable, and it's not like you can't make a viable Rogue. But you have to be aware of these potholes to avoid them. You want something that helps with saves, a way to ensure Sneak Attack, and probably some accuracy boost. The class appears to heavily lean towards TWF (with the dex focus and bonus damage), but it's not actually that good at TWF (because Rogue doesn't fix most of the weaknesses of TWF, and TWF doesn't fix any of the Rogue's weaknesses).
In addition, as touched upon above, Rogue is not actually good at skill stuff. It has plenty skill ranks, but no bonuses to these skills; basically a jack of all trades, master of none situation. Usually, skills are only a mean to an end, and it's the overcoming of challenges that's the goal, not the skill itself. For that, Rogue is actually pretty bad, because spells are often so much better than skills it's not even funny. Sadly the skill unlocks don't really help.
Eldritch Scoundrel does actually help on a lot of these issues. It's miles ahead at problem solving, both in and out of combat, in spite of the reduces skill ranks. Spells like Heroism also help shore up other weaknesses. It may be weaker at a strictly vanilla combat, with visible enemies you can reach on firm ground without notably magical abilities, but those aren't usually the tough fights anyway, are they?
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I'm sure you have classes or concepts you don't like to play for me its anything relying on "gifts" from another being such as clerics. Its entirely personal but I see no point in forcing myself to play a class that I neither like nor think I could roleplay well.
I didn't think I needed to share the character concept as I'm looking at the mechanics but if you want it here's the full thing.
Jennifer is optimistic, energetic, and generally an extrovert mentality. As a result, she is quick to make friends. Jennifer also tends to act before she thinks, and can be rather impulsive and quick-tempered at times. Although generally rather cultured and good at dealing with people she sometimes feels she has to downplay things she feels conflict with her image such as the fact she also enjoys reading. Balancing this out is the fact that Jennifer is fearless, sometimes intelligent, quick-thinking, good in a crises and skilled in self-defense, allowing her to overcome various challenges, including those caused by her own lack of impulse control. She enjoys playing pranks on people as long as they are in good humour and not something that could actually hurt the person either emotionally or physically. She is dediated to her family especially her older sister (the aranist) who she feels is lacking in real world experience and needs someone to help look after her and make her actually go out and experience life rather than holing herself up in a tower and reading about it.
I think the flashy combat was a bad description I just don't want her relying on brute force to deal with her foes.
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Unchained Rogue w/Scout Archetype
+0 Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Branched Spear
+1 Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick
+2 Feat: Dodge
+3 Rogue Talent: Minor Magic (Acid Splash recommended)
(5) +3 Feat: Mobility
+4 Rogue Talent: Major Magic (Shield Recommended)
+5 Feat: Spring Attack
+6 Rogue Talent: Slow Reactions/Coax Information/Bleeding Attack
+6 Feat: Greater Dirty Trick
(10)+7 Rogue Talent: Dispelling Attack
+8 Feat: Quick Dirty Trick/Superior Dirty Trick
+9 Rogue Talent
+9 Feat:
+10 Rogue Talent
(15)+11 Feat:
+12 Rogue Talent
+12 Feat:
+13 Rogue Talent
+14 Feat:
(20)+15 Rogue Talent:
Alright Senko. There is a good template for a rogue that can act as a pseudo-bodyguard, still effective in battle, smart and quick witted that is able to use the elements around him/her to outsmart, baffle, or outright annoy her enemies.
Use Debilitating Injury to great effect
Bewildered: This gives a -2 AC to your targets for all your party members. But for you it gives you -4 and gets better as you level up (-8). So it basically mitigates you not being full BAB class.
Disoriented: This gives target a -2 to hit anyone. But it gives him a -4 against YOU. So basically you just upped your AC. Goes all the way up to -8 as you level.
Hampered: This is another excellent choice. It may not sound that great, but when spring attack comes into play if the enemy can't reach you without taking a double move, or if he can only swing once instead of a full-attack... you basically are preventing damage that your healer is going to have to heal.
Acid Splash - This allows you to deal with flyers to a certain extent. Get sniper goggles for increased sneak attack range.
Shield - Extra Shield type AC which you weren't going to have anyways. So now you potentially just increased your AC by 4... plus when you put Disorented into play... now you become a little more tankier.
Those are recommended spells, some people prefer vanish and other stuff. It's your choice. The prize comes with Dispelling Attacks at level 10. Basically at will/unlimited Dispel Magic.
Dirty Trick Maneuvers to just add to the random chaos you can cause on the battlefield. It's also perfect for those few rare occasions where you will fight something that is immune to sneak attacks.
If your attack is successful, the target takes a penalty. The penalty is limited to one of the following conditions: blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened. This condition lasts for 1 round. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, the penalty lasts 1 additional round. This penalty can usually be removed if the target spends a move action. If you possess the Greater Dirty Trick feat, the penalty lasts for 1d4 rounds, plus 1 round for every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD. In addition, removing the condition requires the target to spend a standard action.
Also things to consider (Agile Maneuvers) though there is FAQs out there that state that some Combat Maneuvers can be done with Dex and Agile Maneuvers might not be required.
Underhanded Trick rogue talent gives you a few things. 1) It gives you Improved Dirty Trick. 2) At 6th level it passively counts you as having pre-requisites for Greater Dirty Trick (That is, you won't need to invest in Combat Expertise nor a 13 Int.)
Scout Archetype basically allows you to get sneak attacks off in more situations.
Charge into battle... SNEAK ATTACK! Disorient target to mitigate -2 penalty for charge. Hopefully it's dead. If not Acrobatics your way into a more favorable flank... OR CHARGE away at another enemy like a pin-ball. Most enemies won't hit you because you have reach... they usually don't. If they do, that's where Slow Reactions rogue talent comes into play.
Once Spring Attack and Skirmisher comes into play, you're basically just antagonizing the enemy into attacking you. But they won't because your basically jumping around the battle field, with your spear darting in and out hitting them where it hurts.
Anyways, let me know what you think.
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Hmmm the probelm with reach weapons is you need to be away from them. That said I can't help but look at your build and consider how it would work if you add lunge -2 to AC but your attacks are made at 15' range so you hit them at 15'. They are then adjacent to your spear and can't take a 5' step to attack you but would need to move 10 through your reach giving you an attack of opportunity which in turn would limit them to only 1 attack on you not a full attack action. Could also work well with spring attack.
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Yeah... that's how reach works. Except whips. But, in general if you hit them at reach and then they 5-foot step into your space, you can acrobatics away. Either way, they are not attacking your buddy.
With Spring Attack and Skirmisher, this becomes even more deadlier, as you can basically spring attack 15-feet in, SNEAK ATTACK, Spring out 15-feet. At a minimum that is Spear Damage + Dex Damage + SA Damage. That's not including any extra damage you get from magical weapons and other mythical stuff. That might not sound like a lot but at lvl 10, that's 5d6 on SA alone. 5-30 Dmg Avg 15 Damage. You add two hand damage using Dex that's another 6. PALTRY damage when compared to barbarian or other classes. But this is worse case scenario. But your strength will be your utility. Preventing damage to your comrades, giving flat footed condition, restricting mobility. Taking AoOs… there is so much you can do and specialize in... that will be upto you. If you want to take lunge... you can. But mythic has something that increases your AoO range. You pair that up with Bodyguard or Standstill... It's options you have available.
I didn't finish the build because ultimately you by the time you reach lvl 8, you will probably have a better idea or direction that you will want to go in.
I'm sure you have classes or concepts you don't like to play for me its anything relying on "gifts" from another being such as clerics.
It's quite all right. It was more of an afterthought, hence the small font size. It's just that it's a rather weird thing that notably limits your choices because deities are kind of a big deal in Pathfinder, and many player options are tied to them.
There apparently was some misunderstanding regarding character concept. What you wrote is indeed mostly not relevant, because it's stuff you'd represent with roleplaying only, not with mechanics. Which also means my point from my post #15 still stands: At some point, you have to decide what you actually want, especially what abilities you want. Your "character concept" is more like a personality, but in Pathfinder, that's simply not enough, you need that mechanical part as well.
For instance, you mentioned the bodyguard/protector stuff, do you want some mechanics for that (e.g. the Bodyguard feat or Archon Diversion)? What kind of self-defense do you want? This could be anything from just having good AC over taking Dodge up to using the Crane Style line* or even Mobile Bulwark Style line. How do you want to represent the "[not] relying on brute force"? That could be interpreted as going dex-based, using combat maneuvers, applying debuffs, or using spells in combat. Oh, and it could also easily mean ranged combat (the bodyguard stuff too - what protects better than killing enemies before they can get in range?).
*) The first thing that jumps to my mind from that post is actually a dex-based Scaled Fist unMonk with the Crane Style feat chain.
Hmmm the probelm with reach weapons is you need to be away from them.
That's actually very rarely a problem - usually, you can 5-feet-step away from adjacent enemies to attack them.
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I'm sure you have classes or concepts you don't like to play for me its anything relying on "gifts" from another being such as clerics.It's quite all right. It was more of an afterthought, hence the small font size. It's just that it's a rather weird thing that notably limits your choices because deities are kind of a big deal in Pathfinder, and many player options are tied to them.
There apparently was some misunderstanding regarding character concept. What you wrote is indeed mostly not relevant, because it's stuff you'd represent with roleplaying only, not with mechanics. Which also means my point from my post #15 still stands: At some point, you have to decide what you actually want, especially what abilities you want. Your "character concept" is more like a personality, but in Pathfinder, that's simply not enough, you need that mechanical part as well.
For instance, you mentioned the bodyguard/protector stuff, do you want some mechanics for that (e.g. the Bodyguard feat or Archon Diversion)? What kind of self-defense do you want? This could be anything from just having good AC over taking Dodge up to using the Crane Style line* or even Mobile Bulwark Style line. How do you want to represent the "[not] relying on brute force"? That could be interpreted as going dex-based, using combat maneuvers, applying debuffs, or using spells in combat. Oh, and it could also easily mean ranged combat (the bodyguard stuff too - what protects better than killing enemies before they can get in range?).
*) The first thing that jumps to my mind from that post is actually a dex-based Scaled Fist unMonk with the Crane Style feat chain.
Hmmm the probelm with reach weapons is you need to be away from them.That's actually very rarely a problem - usually, you can 5-feet-step away from adjacent enemies to attack them.
Ive actually got it about 90% done now just looking at archetype (this thread), possibility of a level dip and the many "no play this class instead" suggestions. I appreciate the thought as its helped me refine things somewhat but still i get to "Im happy with this" then someone posts something completely.different and i need to look into it.