Help improve my swashbuckler please.


Advice

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Scarab Sages

Due to advice received in this thread https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42wqc?Does-this-bard-look-ok I've switched character class to Swashbuckler and being unfamiliiar with them I'm looking for advice on how to build a good one. A few points to get out of the way first . ..

1) Ability scores were rolled so while I can move them around I can't change them except by racial bonuses/penalties.
2) General concept is a friendly, social character with a slightly flashy fighting style.
3) I am considering Picaroon as an archetype this wont change anything at level 1 and I am aware that you can't dual wield pistol/sword without sacrificing benefits. I am thinking by the point I would be ready to aquire a gun I'd also be able to afford a glove of storing. Then I think I could full round attack at range with the gun, use a free action to store it and then a second free action with quickdraw to draw a sword.

So that out of the way.

Race: ?
Class: Swashbuckler.
Abilities: 11, 16, 12, 9, 10, 13
Skills: Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive at 1 rank.
Feat: Slashing grace, if human second would be exotic weapon proficiency X (would also be first feat taken if not human).
Trait: Resilient, ? or Sword Scion (See below)
Weapon: Katana or Aldori Dueling Sword (See below).

With regard to the prederred sword I know I'm spending a feat to get it but with slashing grace they function for Swashbuckler abilities and im not a personal fan of the scimitar or rapier. However I'm not sure which would be a better choice. Katana has a better crit ratio which is good for swashbucklers as they regain panache with them but the Aldori dueling sword can take the sword scion trait for +1 to attack with it and a free starting weapon. With swashbuckler finesse and slashing grace you'd be using dex for attack and damage with either even if it takes a bit to set up if not human. Im leaning towards katana as id start with a longsword or similar then switch once id gotten the exotic weapons proficiency feat if i didnt start off with huamn and 2 feats.

Any advice/critique appreciated, again if I take the Picaroon archetype it wont change anything till higher levels when I'd be aquiring a gun and maybe spending a feat or two on it.


With Cha 13 you get 1 panache point max. With Cha 9 the same. Unless you're planning to raise it (at L4 perhaps?) there's no difference, and the 13 might be more use elsewhere.

Slashing grace also requires weapon focus as a prereq., which in turn requires proficiency in the weapon chosen.

Swashbucklers live and die by their crits. Literally, they need panache to parry/riposte. Katana beats ADS hands down.

Scarab Sages

I see, i probably will raise cha at 4 but i also have a racial bonus that depending on race choice could raise it to 15 then a point at lvl 4 gets 16 and 3 panache.

I didn't realize that about slashing grace so 1st feat exotic proficiency then focus then slashing so damage will be low for a few levels.

The Picaroon archetype replaces the parry/riposte. Is it really that good an ability?


Opportune parry and riposte is something like a 50% miss chance, and a free attack on them if they miss. It's pretty good IMO though there's at least one poster currently active who disagrees.

Those numbers are very soft. Hard-minmaxed characters will make mincemeat of them.

Scarab Sages

Im not a minmaxer normally and i rarely play melee so i expect this will be far from optimal.

Hope i hear from the one who disagrees on parry and riposte since i can hear both sides and thats the picano ability trade im least sure of being worth it.


avr wrote:


Those numbers are very soft. Hard-minmaxed characters will make mincemeat of them.

Is this a pvp game? Otherwise the minmaxed characters wont be anything but a help.

OP I know you're no fan of rapier but it is a fine weapon for a swashbuckler to keep panache coming in. 13 wont net you more than 9, as already stated to your one panache away from always being empty.

In all honesty being frontline with these numbers may be quite hard. You'd almost be better off going as a full arcane caster or a ranged attacker.

For instance you could be a bard (back to bards!) And go the star knife route which allows for attacks and damage with charisma, and buffing your self and friends.

Frontlines need gear so base amount of strength, con to soak damage and dex of course to do your job. Not to mention charisma. It's going to be a hard job for you.

I will say this, with a con so low you should NEVER trade away parry. You'll need that to stay alive.

Scarab Sages

As i mentioned in the other thread or thought i did they arent really meant to be front line just bodyguard for the arcanist pregame story. Plus this is wotr so there'll be more upgrades than usual (an extra 10 stat upgrades so honestly im less concerned about having lower stats than in a normal game) and no racial stat bump/penalty is applied yet. Which can get the panache to +2 (15) then first stat bump to 3. Im not ignoring the put cha to 9 im just holding off judgement till i pick a race. After the game starts therell presumably be a nice tanky front liner so they can be skirmish damage dealer. On top of which they are meant to be the social part of the pair so i really dont want to dump cha.

Mechanically rapier is fine i just wouldnt have much fun playing a character with t as i just cant see it working on a lot of the foes in pathfinder.

Scarab Sages

So update I have decided to go with this . . .

Race: Elf or Half-Elf for the extra Panache probably half-elf to avoid the con penalty of an elf.
Class: Swashbuckler.
Abilities: 11, 16, 12, 9, 10, 13 (+2 for half elf to take it to 15 then the first rank level up bumping it to 16 at which point with the half elf bonus I'd have 4 panache.)
Skills: Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive at 1 rank.
Feat: exotic weapon proficiency Katana.
Trait: Resilient, ? perhaps a bonus to will saves?
Weapon: Katana or rapier (See below).

I am going katana but that'll take a few levels to set up so I'll give rapier a try for the first few levels to see if I can tolerate it. I know bad stats (they were rolled I have to live with them) and I'll probably die. However I feel this concept will allow me to have fun while it lasts and for me that's the point of the game. Plus its wrath of the righteous so there'll be mythic benefits as well and I know that includes bonus stat increases if I make it that far.


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any swashbuckler should grab the blue scarf flair at the first option they get. (and if they can manage to also get combat reflexes great as well).
more reach (and aoo) = more attacks (and from safer location) and crits = more damage and panache regeneration.

also heaving reach mean you can start your full attack at 10 ft away. which mean that a normal enemy with 5 ft reach will need to take 5 ft move to close in and full attack . then you can use dodging panache to not only gain bonus to ac from his first attack but be out of his reach for the other attacks he might have - nothing make a high level, 2-weapon\pouncing, enemy angrier then not getting to full attack when he should. (for pouncing enemies make sure to side step side ways since some gm let them continue their charge as a house rules).

side note. this FAQ ruled that holding a Flair (probably in the same hand that the buckler\tekko-kagi is strapped on) doesn't effect things (like slashing grace etc) that need a free hand.


Senko wrote:

Race: Elf or Half-Elf for the extra Panache probably half-elf to avoid the con penalty of an elf.

Class: Swashbuckler.
Abilities: 11, 16, 12, 9, 10, 13 (+2 for half elf to take it to 15 then the first rank level up bumping it to 16 at which point with the half elf bonus I'd have 4 panache.)
Skills: Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive at 1 rank.
Feat: exotic weapon proficiency Katana.
Trait: Resilient, ? perhaps a bonus to will saves?
Weapon: Katana or rapier (See below).

Sooo...

Half-Elves have the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait which means that you can start out with EWP: Katana in place of the bonus Skill Focus feat that Half-Elves normally get. This would save you a feat and allow you to use dexterity for your Katana starting at lv 3 as a single-classed Swashbuckler (rather than level 4).

If you instead start out with a level of Warrior Poet Samurai you'd get proficiency with the Katana, Weapon Finesse, and the ability to apply Weapon Finesse to the Katana at level 1. So as a human you could get dex-to-dmg and attack with the Katana at level 1.

Rather than a Swashbuckler I think you'd have more fun with a Warrior Poet Samurai 1 / Occultist X build. You'd generally deal more damage, have spells, and the first level of Samurai would tie in nicely with your bodyguard backstory, too.

You'll be Int-based, but I think the Student of Philosophy social character trait has already been mentioned. Considering that your proposed build only has three skill ranks per level the Occultist would be much more proficient in social interactions.

Grand Lodge

I stopped bothering parrying at higher levels because I gradually saw less and less opportunity of doing it. That doesn't stop being useful in the absolute meaning, I just traded out the ability out in favor of something I'd use more frequently.

I don't think I'd be able to create with 15 points. 20 is fine (I don't need 25 though). But I'll say the same thing either way : I don't feel the stat array is good. Dumping the wisdom to 8 wouldn't change many things and would free points for something else. Having a low int hurts when the class doesn't have the most SP/level, so squeezing out a 12 wouldn't hurt : Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perception, Acrobatics, Bluff, my own swash has 6/level and I still don't have enough, then 3 ... but depends from player to player I'd suppose.

I don't personally like Warrior Poet/Occultist. The multiclassing/dip has a higher ceiling than the swashbuckler, and overall better resistance. But playing the swash was simple for me, I never saw occultists, the reason was the class being too difficult to play, where they had more examples for swashies to create their own.


Umm...Picaroon is going to be more trouble than it is worth. To reload a firearm you need a free hand. If you duel wield a pistol and a sword...you have no free hand to reload. This is also a problem when a gunslinger tries to duel wield pistols. My general thought on firearms is either you build a character around using them, or you hold off until level 8+ so you can buy a firearm that magics up free bullets.

I'm going to take a page out of Slim's play book. How about a Halfling Swashbuckler with the Inspired Blade archetype?

Str 9-2 Dex 16+2 Con 12 Int 11 Wis 10 Cha 13+2.
Skills: Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive, Perform: Orate.
Racial Trait: Fleet of Foot (-slow speed, -sure footed)
Trait: Helpful, and Demon Proof Mind.
Feats: Fencing Grace. (you get weapon focus(rapier) from the archetype)

So the little things. Sure, you're stuck using a rapier. But you have +1 to all saves, +2 vs fear, +2 vs evil outsiders mind stuff, double the aid ability. Also you start doing dex to attack and damage, so +4 to hit and damage is good. At 3rd level you can take the deed that lets you add your Swashbuckler level to that. Also you move 30' instead of 20', and you only gave up your climb and acrobat bonus to do it. Add Pirana strike and you're in a great position to pick a direction to go with your feats. Though if you wanted to pick up Firearms I'd strongly suggest waiting till you can afford to get a weapon that reloads itself.

If you switch one of your skills to Intimidate you'd be great for learning Dazzling Display. Maybe drop Sense Motive for Intimidate since you don't have any stat bonus for that skill?

Also at level 4 I'd put a point into Int so you get an extra skill point and +1 to panache since your Int feeds into panache for an Inspired Blade. Then at 8 into Cha so you gain another panache and a boost to Charmed Life + skills. You could do it the other way around, but I think the bonus skill points will be a little more tempting.

This also means a headband that boosts cha or int will help your panache, and ideally you want one that boosts both eventually.


avr wrote:
Opportune parry and riposte is something like a 50% miss chance, and a free attack on them if they miss. It's pretty good IMO though there's at least one poster currently active who disagrees.

Math time! Let's say we're 5th level, and get attacked by a medium sized CR5 enemy. The recommended attack roll of an attack-centric CR5 enemy is 10, our AC is 20, our attack roll is +12. The enemy hits on a 10 or higher, since we need to roll higher, we'd have a 60% chance to parry a rolled 10 (we need a 9 or higher), -5% per point the enemy's attack roll dice shows above that. Since we have to decide to use it before knowing if we'd have been hit in the first place, OP&R has a 19.25% chance to convert an enemy hit into a miss. Against an average CR 3 enemy, which an attack roll of +6, it's only a 15.75% chance to convert.

It gets better with higher attack roll and lower AC, although of course the latter is everything but desirable. I presumed a +1 weapon, Weapon Focus, 18 dex, and a +1 chain shirt for my sample calculation.

@Meirill: Using a small race makes OP&R even worse (-2 penalty per size the attacker is larger).

Scarab Sages

zza ni wrote:
any swashbuckler should grab the blue scarf flair at the first option they get. (and if they can manage to also get combat reflexes great as well).

Well that's a bizzare item, I mean I see how they work and where they come from plus there's some nice ones in there but the having to grip in an offhand is odd. I shall hold this glove in my off hand rather than wearing it.

Wonderstell wrote:
Senko wrote:

Race: Elf or Half-Elf for the extra Panache probably half-elf to avoid the con penalty of an elf.

Class: Swashbuckler.
Abilities: 11, 16, 12, 9, 10, 13 (+2 for half elf to take it to 15 then the first rank level up bumping it to 16 at which point with the half elf bonus I'd have 4 panache.)
Skills: Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive at 1 rank.
Feat: exotic weapon proficiency Katana.
Trait: Resilient, ? perhaps a bonus to will saves?
Weapon: Katana or rapier (See below).

Sooo...

Half-Elves have the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait which means that you can start out with EWP: Katana in place of the bonus Skill Focus feat that Half-Elves normally get. This would save you a feat and allow you to use dexterity for your Katana starting at lv 3 as a single-classed Swashbuckler (rather than level 4).

If you instead start out with a level of Warrior Poet Samurai you'd get proficiency with the Katana, Weapon Finesse, and the ability to apply Weapon Finesse to the Katana at level 1. So as a human you could get dex-to-dmg and attack with the Katana at level 1.

Rather than a Swashbuckler I think you'd have more fun with a Warrior Poet Samurai 1 / Occultist X build. You'd generally deal more damage, have spells, and the first level of Samurai would tie in nicely with your bodyguard backstory, too.

You'll be Int-based, but I think the Student of Philosophy social character trait has already been mentioned. Considering that your proposed build only has three skill ranks per level the Occultist would be much more proficient in social interactions.

I did not consider the half-elven trait I do have a spare trait I could take that quite easily. This character is the social, charismatic type and student of philosophy only allows you to use int for persuading others not for gathering information so it just doesn't work for what I'm after. I'm more concerend with getting as close to the concept I want than making a powerful character.

Philippe Lam wrote:


I don't think I'd be able to create with 15 points. 20 is fine (I don't need 25 though). But I'll say the same thing either way : I don't feel the stat array is good. Dumping the wisdom to 8 wouldn't change many things and would free points for something else. Having a low int hurts when the class doesn't have the most SP/level, so squeezing out a 12 wouldn't hurt : Diplomacy, Intimidate, Perception, Acrobatics, Bluff, my own swash has 6/level and I still don't have enough, then 3 ... but depends from player to player I'd suppose.

I don't personally like Warrior Poet/Occultist. The multiclassing/dip has a higher ceiling than the swashbuckler, and overall better resistance. But playing the swash was simple for me, I never saw occultists, the reason was the class being too difficult to play, where they had more examples for swashies to create their own.

These were rolled not point buy, I can adjust them slightly with racial abilities or stat upgrades (normal and mythic) but not otherwise.

Meirril wrote:

Umm...Picaroon is going to be more trouble than it is worth. To reload a firearm you need a free hand. If you duel wield a pistol and a sword...you have no free hand to reload. This is also a problem when a gunslinger tries to duel wield pistols. My general thought on firearms is either you build a character around using them, or you hold off until level 8+ so you can buy a firearm that magics up free bullets.

I'm going to take a page out of Slim's play book. How about a Halfling Swashbuckler with the Inspired Blade archetype?

Str 9-2 Dex 16+2 Con 12 Int 11 Wis 10 Cha 13+2.
Skills: Diplomacy, Perception, Sense Motive, Perform: Orate.
Racial Trait: Fleet of Foot (-slow speed, -sure footed)
Trait: Helpful, and Demon Proof Mind.
Feats: Fencing Grace. (you get weapon focus(rapier) from the archetype)

So the little things. Sure, you're stuck using a rapier. But you have +1 to all saves, +2 vs fear, +2 vs evil outsiders mind stuff, double the aid ability. Also you start doing dex to attack and damage, so +4 to hit and damage is good. At 3rd level you can take the deed that lets you add your Swashbuckler level to that. Also you move 30' instead of 20', and you only gave up your climb and acrobat bonus to do it. Add Pirana strike and you're in a great position to pick a direction to go with your feats. Though if you wanted to pick up Firearms I'd strongly suggest waiting till you can afford to get a weapon that reloads itself.

If you switch one of your skills to Intimidate you'd be great for learning Dazzling Display. Maybe drop Sense Motive for Intimidate since you don't have any stat bonus for that skill?

Also at level 4 I'd put a point into Int so you get an extra skill point and +1 to panache since your Int feeds into panache for an Inspired Blade. Then at 8 into Cha so you gain another panache and a boost to Charmed Life + skills. You could do it the...

I've decided against going for Picaroon while I can see way's to make it work mechanically I simply don't see it working for this character. I'm not going with inspired blade. I simply dislike the rapier as a weapon considering what you deal with, I'm using one for the first few levels to see if I can get over that but I don't want to take an archetype that locks me into using one if I can't. I am planning to raise int later (possibly using a mythic upgrade) and I will probably take intimidate at some point though right now the skill points are more to reflect their backstory.

Derklord wrote:
avr wrote:
Opportune parry and riposte is something like a 50% miss chance, and a free attack on them if they miss. It's pretty good IMO though there's at least one poster currently active who disagrees.

Math time! Let's say we're 5th level, and get attacked by a medium sized CR5 enemy. The recommended attack roll of an attack-centric CR5 enemy is 10, our AC is 20, our attack roll is +12. The enemy hits on a 10 or higher, since we need to roll higher, we'd have a 60% chance to parry a rolled 10 (we need a 9 or higher), -5% per point the enemy's attack roll dice shows above that. Since we have to decide to use it before knowing if we'd have been hit in the first place, OP&R has a 19.25% chance to convert an enemy hit into a miss. Against an average CR 3 enemy, which an attack roll of +6, it's only a 15.75% chance to convert.

It gets better with higher attack roll and lower AC, although of course the latter is everything but desirable. I presumed a +1 weapon, Weapon Focus, 18 dex, and a +1 chain shirt for my sample calculation.

@Meirill: Using a small race makes OP&R even worse (-2 penalty per size the attacker is larger).

I see thanks. Kind of a shame you can't choose to parry attacks that would hit rather than an attack not landed.


Philippe Lam wrote:
I don't personally like Warrior Poet/Occultist. The multiclassing/dip has a higher ceiling than the swashbuckler, and overall better resistance. But playing the swash was simple for me, I never saw occultists, the reason was the class being too difficult to play, where they had more examples for swashies to create their own.

The Occultist has far more options than the Swashbuckler, which makes building one more complex, but it doesn't need to be more difficult to play the Occultist.

A normal Trappings of the Warrior build only needs to spend one standard action at the start of combat to apply Bane to their weapon, and then you'd play it exactly as you would a Swashbuckler. Attack stuff with the pointy end. Then you keep in mind that you have a limited pool of resources, just like Panache, which you can use to activate special abilities, just like Deeds.
And 6th lv spellcasting if that's something that interests you.

====

Derklord wrote:
OP&R has a 19.25% chance to convert an enemy hit into a miss.

So when we use OP&R there's a 45% chance the enemy would have already hit below our AC, a 19.25% chance that they hit above and we negate it, and a 35.75% chance that they hit above and we don't negate it.

Which is equal to having a 35% miss chance for that attack. So not that far from avr's guess, and probably closer to that at higher levels when attack bonuses starts to pile up.

Derklord wrote:
I presumed a +1 weapon, Weapon Focus, 18 dex, and a +1 chain shirt for my sample calculation.

What about the +1 Buckler? That would lower to chance of OP&R negating a hit to just 13.5% (if I did the math correctly), and gives us an effective 30% miss chance.


Note that you don't have to negate a hit to get the free attack. The free attack still works if they were going to miss anyway.

BTW, while it doesn't help my argument, don't use those recommended attack bonuses - the designers don't.


Senko wrote:
I did not consider the half-elven trait I do have a spare trait I could take that quite easily.

It's an alternate racial trait, not a race trait. Dumb, I know, but they're two different things.

Senko wrote:
This character is the social, charismatic type and student of philosophy only allows you to use int for persuading others not for gathering information so it just doesn't work for what I'm after.

Alright, so your proposed build had skill ranks in Diplomacy, Perception and Sense Motive. If bluff isn't a big deal for you, you could simply take the Clever Wordplay social trait to base all uses of Diplomacy on Intelligence. Which would include gathering information.


Senko wrote:
I've decided against going for Picaroon while I can see way's to make it work mechanically I simply don't see it working for this character. I'm not going with inspired blade. I simply dislike the rapier as a weapon considering what you deal with, I'm using one for the first few levels to see if I can get over that but I don't want to take an archetype that locks me into using one if I can't. I am planning to raise int later (possibly using a mythic upgrade) and I will probably take intimidate at some point though right now the skill points are more to reflect their backstory.

The reason I picked up Inspired Blade was to get dex to damage at first level. I think the next best would be to not chose an archetype, just straight Swashbuckler. Then you can go for your preferred weapons. But that means you need to pay an extra feat to get dex to damage.

Change my build to human, drop the +2 to charisma. Weapon Focus: Cutlass and Slashing Grace for dex to damage at 1st level. In the future drop your first stat bump into Cha so you can have 2 panache points and you only need (benefit from) a Cha improving item. Well, and of course dex. Dex should actually be your highest priority.

Also in the future you could take an EWP in a different bladed weapon and retrain your weapon focus to switch to a Dueling Sword or Katana. Since Swashbuckler gets panache from crits the Katana is a better choice. I don't think its worth the extra feat. Scimitar/Cutlass/Rapier/Kukri are all good. You damage is going to be mostly from bonuses and the upgrade to a d8 is not worth a feat. In my mind unless you have something you can do with a Katana that you can't do with a martial weapon it isn't worth spending the feat to use a Katana one handed. Especially considering that Katana are from a part of Galorian that has no dealings with the area your campaign is set in.

For traits...can you choose the campaign traits for RotW? Those are much more powerful than normal traits. Take one that feeds into the epic path you desire and demon proof mind.

Scarab Sages

Wonderstell wrote:
Senko wrote:
I did not consider the half-elven trait I do have a spare trait I could take that quite easily.

It's an alternate racial trait, not a race trait. Dumb, I know, but they're two different things.

Senko wrote:
This character is the social, charismatic type and student of philosophy only allows you to use int for persuading others not for gathering information so it just doesn't work for what I'm after.
Alright, so your proposed build had skill ranks in Diplomacy, Perception and Sense Motive. If bluff isn't a big deal for you, you could simply take the Clever Wordplay social trait to base all uses of Diplomacy on Intelligence. Which would include gathering information.

Bluff will be in there later along with intimidate but I really am going to stick with charisma over strong options because honestly if I go away from that I think I'd just give up on this concept and go back to my normal caster. I want to play this idea because I think it'll be fun regardless of what happens to the character and if it gets changed too much from what I want I may as well just chuck the whole thing in a bin. Sorry if I'm getting a little snippy but I just feel people are constantly pushing something I don't want to play on me because its mechnaically better rahter than helping me get as close to what I want as I can even if its a weaker character. I don't care if I'm not the best I just want to build a concept and have fun. Int may be better from a power perspsective but it just doesn't work with the concept for her. She's social and charismatic not intelligent, not saying she has to be dumb but she does need charisma as much as the other mechanical skill points/abilitlies to fit with my concept of her.

Meirril wrote:
Senko wrote:
I've decided against going for Picaroon while I can see way's to make it work mechanically I simply don't see it working for this character. I'm not going with inspired blade. I simply dislike the rapier as a weapon considering what you deal with, I'm using one for the first few levels to see if I can get over that but I don't want to take an archetype that locks me into using one if I can't. I am planning to raise int later (possibly using a mythic upgrade) and I will probably take intimidate at some point though right now the skill points are more to reflect their backstory.

The reason I picked up Inspired Blade was to get dex to damage at first level. I think the next best would be to not chose an archetype, just straight Swashbuckler. Then you can go for your preferred weapons. But that means you need to pay an extra feat to get dex to damage.

Change my build to human, drop the +2 to charisma. Weapon Focus: Cutlass and Slashing Grace for dex to damage at 1st level. In the future drop your first stat bump into Cha so you can have 2 panache points and you only need (benefit from) a Cha improving item. Well, and of course dex. Dex should actually be your highest priority.

Also in the future you could take an EWP in a different bladed weapon and retrain your weapon focus to switch to a Dueling Sword or Katana. Since Swashbuckler gets panache from crits the Katana is a better choice. I don't think its worth the extra feat. Scimitar/Cutlass/Rapier/Kukri are all good. You damage is going to be mostly from bonuses and the upgrade to a d8 is not worth a feat. In my mind unless you have something you can do with a Katana that you can't do with a martial weapon it isn't worth spending the feat to use a Katana one handed. Especially considering that Katana are from a part of Galorian that has no dealings with the area your campaign is set in.

For traits...can you choose the campaign traits for RotW? Those are much more powerful than normal traits. Take one that feeds into the epic...

I will be going straight Swashbuckler.

Honestly I don't know which mythic path to take (forutnately I have time to decide). Guardian and Marshall both appeal to me and trickster's a possibility. I'm leaning towards a possible dual path guardian/marshall as both work with the social aspect I'm aiming for. Guardian draws strength from their bonds with others and marshal inspires them. Anyway the DM has said we can take any WotR trait and ability seperately. That is if you want the fluff for the "touched by divinity" because your the child of a god and the draw is to your parent but the abilities of the "Stolen Fury" trait as your a fighter (going for the hercules character) you can. Though you do have to take a fluff and ability together as a trait. Thanks for reminding me to look at them as with the character changes I should do that.

Its a decision human and the extra feat to get things earlier or half-elf and better long term benefits.

I know I'm fussy about these things but the katana is as much for personal taste as any mechanical benefit. To me all the rest just have associations its not easy for me to throw when playing.

1) Scimitar/Cutlass are both essentially the same weapon to me and make me tend to picture a large build not something really suited for a dexterity based combat style.
not quite as much curve but this style of blade
http://www.allseasonsforallreasons.com/pirate-cutlass-sword/

2) Rapier goes the other way and doesn't seem to have enough blade even with dex for fighting the creatures of Golarion.

Try parrying a bastard sword or axe wielded by a minotaur by this

https://d3dadyqi1774oh.cloudfront.net/mi/cf-magazine-ne-zorro-ist-noch-nich t-vom-tisch

3) Kukri honestly aside from "knife" it doesn't really bring much to mind. Could work I suppose though it looks a bit silly when I picture the character holding one. . .

Katana and dueling sword bring to mind the one on this page for me a wide enough blade to stand up to the things you'll face but not so large its hard to see it being used with dex rather than strength.

https://pathfinderkingmaker.gamepedia.com/Aldori_Defender


That is a costume prop cutlass you've got there. If you do a google image search you'd see a lot of swords that look like this:

https://www.pantherwholesale.com/products/ics-610

When they describe a 'curved blade' they mean a slight curve, not the joke like the one from the costume shop. Heck, Katana are described as 'curved blades' y'know and they are generally more curved than a cutlass, but less curved than a scimitar or calvary saber.

Even scimitars are more long, less thick and less curved than that joke. The kind of sword you're describing is generally a two handed affair used by executioners and guards that don't rely on actually using the blade they carry around because its wildly impractical.

When you're fighting with a rapier or other fencing weapon you only use the sword to guide the other weapon. You aren't trying to stop it. A parry involves moving your body as much as it involves moving a blade. Fencing also involves taking a stance where you have balanced footing and can move very quickly in response to your opponent. Other sword styles claim to be the same, and they honestly aren't as focused on changing direction and retreats so they aren't focused on mobility for defense. They are focused on mobility for offense and once you've seen them fight for a bit, they come off as very one dimensional. Though you can say the same for sports fencing, since it confines the fencers to a narrow box. Even in that limited setting, fencers move with more purpose than other sword styles.

Kukri are a lot like using an axe. That curved blade is for getting a machette like swing with the pointy bit getting driven deep into your opponent. It isn't a cutting weapon, it is a hacking weapon.

Katana is over romanticized in popular media. Even kinjitsu isn't the way Katana were used. A Katana is notable for its extremely sharp edge and the slashing style used with it. The style focuses on speed and power. What does it ignore? Defense. Why? Because you have a blade with a very thin, razor edge that is extremely easy to damage. Most of the legendary blades talk about how unbreakable they are for a reason. It is because an actual katana is extremely easy to damage and equally difficult to maintain and repair. Pathfinder doesn't have any such mechanics, but this is talking about style and image. Frankly the Katana's image is built on lies and over enthusiastic teenage dreams. Yes it is a fine weapon, no it isn't used like that.

And Katana are 2 handed weapons, with that extra long guard being about leveraging the wielder's strength. The katana is the perfect weapon for a strong warrior who values speed and power. The katana isn't a finesse weapon.

Scarab Sages

That is a knife, not being pedantic juat amused the first four images from the link are knives and i had to scroll down on my phone to see what ypu were yalking about. Ill consider a scimitar though my personal image is that prop cutlass. I think i nerd to google some yputube videos of actual ones in use. It sounds like a proper scimitar matches the image of a dueling sword i have. Not sure the Kukri fits the character image either going by your description of use.

Yep your description us exactly why I'm not a fan of the rapier as a weapon both the dighting style and weapon seem designed for combat against other rapiers not heavier weapons.

On the other hand the issues with the katana dont normally apply for me. I tend to view most proper swords as not what you want to use against heavy armour even a chisel pointed hack (like i think the kukri might be based on your description) isnt as effective as a bashing weapon like a mace or warhammer. At least going by my amateur knowledge of history. Of course in pathfinder we have fantasy options like fireballs or magical katanas that wont be ruined by hitting plate or heavy scales.


Senko wrote:
Sorry if I'm getting a little snippy but I just feel people are constantly pushing something I don't want to play on me because its mechnaically better rahter than helping me get as close to what I want as I can even if its a weaker character.

Nah, I get it. I was just under the impression that what you want is "a social character with a slightly flashy fighting style", rather than specifically the Swashbuckler.

Senko wrote:
I don't care if I'm not the best I just want to build a concept and have fun. Int may be better from a power perspsective but it just doesn't work with the concept for her. She's social and charismatic not intelligent, not saying she has to be dumb but she does need charisma as much as the other mechanical skill points/abilitlies to fit with my concept of her.

It's a very common misconception in pathfinder that you need a high charisma score to be charismatic. If your concept is to have a high charisma score then that's easily achievable. If your concept is "a social and charismatic character that uses a katana and must be a swashbuckler", then even then I don't recommend being charisma-based.

But if you're dead-set on a charisma swashbuckler then you really don't need much advice. The feat choices are pretty intuitive.

Just go down the Slashing Grace feat path first, and realize you have no Panache to spend and grab Extra Panache. Then realize your saves are incredible bad and the immediate action Charmed Life clashes with pretty much all of your Deeds since the class loves swift/immediate actions.
So you're tempted to take Iron Will and Great Fortitude, but I'll recommend going down the Improved Familiar Bond feat path for a Protector familiar. Then you'd get +2 to Will, +2 to Fortitude, and double your HP pool for three feats. Oh and in between you're taking Piranha Strike with your second bonus combat feat.

After that it's time for Signature Deed, maybe some critical feats (or Planar Heritage for wings) and Deific Obedience. Then you're done. You're also gonna take the Hilt Hammer Deed of Renown in place of Kip-Up or Menacing Swordplay, so that you can apply half of your Precise Strike damage to enemies immune to precision damage.


Waiting till level 3 to get slashing grace isn’t that bad. Those first 2 levels go by pretty fast and most creatures you’ll fight at those levels don’t have a lot of hit points either. I get wanting your build to come online as soon as possible, but in this case, you can probably wait for it.


avr wrote:
BTW, while it doesn't help my argument, don't use those recommended attack bonuses - the designers don't.

I have no idea what you're taking about. The only things that you can compare between the guidelines and the spreadsheet are AC and HP, and those match pretty well. Apart from AC for early levels (1-3), for some reason.

Indeed, the mode (most common value) for first melee attack exactly matches the numbers from the guideline, which I have used.

Wonderstell wrote:
What about the +1 Buckler? That would lower to chance of OP&R negating a hit to just 13.5% (if I did the math correctly), and gives us an effective 30% miss chance.

You did.

Wonderstell wrote:
Oh and in between you're taking Piranha Strike with your second bonus combat feat.

I disagree here. Piranha Strike reduces the chance to Parry (lowerign defense) and to confirm a critical hit (reducing panache recovery), and isn't actually that good for us, because we have quite a lot bonus damage. I'd recommend Possessed Hand instead.


I'll agree that things like power attack and piranha strike get overvalued. They are "nice" and usually a net increase in damage. But their overall contribution is usually very small because of all of the other sources of damage available to classes. In this case, weapon specialization would be better, since it gives you +2 damage with no penalty to attack.


Derklord wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
Oh and in between you're taking Piranha Strike with your second bonus combat feat.
I disagree here. Piranha Strike reduces the chance to Parry (lowerign defense) and to confirm a critical hit (reducing panache recovery), and isn't actually that good for us, because we have quite a lot bonus damage.

True that. It's mostly for when you encounter something immune to precision damage, but you'll probably get more mileage out of Critical Focus, Lunge or Combat Reflexes (if you have the Swordmaster's Flair).

Derklord wrote:
I'd recommend Possessed Hand instead.

Gotta be a combat feat, though.


Senko wrote:


On the other hand the issues with the katana dont normally apply for me. I tend to view most proper swords as not what you want to use against heavy armour even a chisel pointed hack (like i think the kukri might be based on your description) isnt as effective as a bashing weapon like a mace or warhammer. At least going by my amateur knowledge of history. Of course in pathfinder we have fantasy options like fireballs or magical katanas that wont be ruined by hitting plate or heavy scales.

Swords in the western world were more or less steel bars with a sharp edge. Nobody that uses a sword frequently sharpened the sword to a razors edge. That would be an amature mistake and after using such a blade in even a serious spar the owner would notice a huge amount of chips along the edge.

That said, a sword is a much better weapon than a mace, warhammer or axe. Every one of those weapons depend on being swung to produce centrifical force. In much the same principle as a lever, the farther the point is from you the more force that gets generated. You're able to generate much more force that way than you would be able to with a thrust. You can sort of do a little test of this yourself. Just imagine throwing a punch from your chest straight forward. Now raise your fist above your head and use it to hammer something. That hammer blow will have a lot more force behind it. Be careful, you don't want to hurt your hand.

The same thing happens with a sword. If you strike with the tip, it will have the most force. The tip is also the weakest part of a sword. It is recommended you try to strike things with the middle third of the blade since it gives you the best compromise between striking power and blade thickness.

Oh, and I neglected to say why swords are better. So if centrifical force is what produces a more damaging swing you need to concentrate on what produces more force. The two factors are length and weight. the more you can increase both the better. A sword is very efficient in that. You get more length for the same weight in the same material. Also by making the striking surface narrower, you concentrate the force generated by the swing, which gives you better penetration. That means you have a better chance of damaging whatever you hit.

This is also the reason spikes and flanges are added to maces, axes are more powerful than hammers, and why picks were popular. Swords have a huge advantage over those other weapons because the striking surface on a sword runs the entire length of the blade. Hafted weapons like Axes, maces ect have a heavy striking surface, and a lighter portion that is used to extend the user's reach. If you miss with the head, you will fail to do significant damage. Most hafted weapons have less than 6" of striking surface. It is much easier to use a sword because even if you don't strike with the part of the sword you want to, you are still hitting with the edge and making the most of the strike.

How sharp to make a sword is debatable. The tougher the thing you are going to hit, the less sharp you want it to be. The softer your target, the more sharp you want it to be. A lot of swords during the middle ages were sharp enough that you wouldn't want to run your hand down the blade, but not sharp enough to cut. If the blade was move across something it would tear it.

I've been doing ren fair stuff for a long, long time now. Giving educational presentations on weapons is a regular gig for me. I went more in depth here than I usually do and there is a lot less hands on in this discussion. The hands on part usually goes over well.

Scarab Sages

Wonderstell wrote:
Senko wrote:
Sorry if I'm getting a little snippy but I just feel people are constantly pushing something I don't want to play on me because its mechnaically better rahter than helping me get as close to what I want as I can even if its a weaker character.

Nah, I get it. I was just under the impression that what you want is "a social character with a slightly flashy fighting style", rather than specifically the Swashbuckler.

Senko wrote:
I don't care if I'm not the best I just want to build a concept and have fun. Int may be better from a power perspsective but it just doesn't work with the concept for her. She's social and charismatic not intelligent, not saying she has to be dumb but she does need charisma as much as the other mechanical skill points/abilitlies to fit with my concept of her.

It's a very common misconception in pathfinder that you need a high charisma score to be charismatic. If your concept is to have a high charisma score then that's easily achievable. If your concept is "a social and charismatic character that uses a katana and must be a swashbuckler", then even then I don't recommend being charisma-based.

But if you're dead-set on a charisma swashbuckler then you really don't need much advice. The feat choices are pretty intuitive.

Just go down the Slashing Grace feat path first, and realize you have no Panache to spend and grab Extra Panache. Then realize your saves are incredible bad and the immediate action Charmed Life clashes with pretty much all of your Deeds since the class loves swift/immediate actions.
So you're tempted to take Iron Will and Great Fortitude, but I'll recommend going down the Improved Familiar Bond feat path for a Protector familiar. Then you'd get +2 to Will, +2 to Fortitude, and double your HP pool for three feats. Oh and in between you're taking Piranha Strike with your second bonus combat feat.

After that it's time for Signature Deed, maybe some critical feats (or Planar Heritage for wings) and Deific...

Its more the charisma I insist on than the swashbuckler. You say take this trait that lets you use int in place of charisma and I get a different character personality image. Someone who uses careful reasoned arguments that you should do X rather than force of personality or a sherlock holmes style deduction that the person your looking for is down at the docks rather than actually talking to people. It is the concept that I want but when you move away from charisma as the primary stat it becomes a different one. It's why my original concept was a bard/duelist and I got convinced to abandon that for Swashbuckler as that was a better choice while retaining the charisma/slightly flashy fighting style that I was aiming for.

Meirril wrote:
Senko wrote:


On the other hand the issues with the katana dont normally apply for me. I tend to view most proper swords as not what you want to use against heavy armour even a chisel pointed hack (like i think the kukri might be based on your description) isnt as effective as a bashing weapon like a mace or warhammer. At least going by my amateur knowledge of history. Of course in pathfinder we have fantasy options like fireballs or magical katanas that wont be ruined by hitting plate or heavy scales.

Swords in the western world were more or less steel bars with a sharp edge. Nobody that uses a sword frequently sharpened the sword to a razors edge. That would be an amature mistake and after using such a blade in even a serious spar the owner would notice a huge amount of chips along the edge.

That said, a sword is a much better weapon than a mace, warhammer or axe. Every one of those weapons depend on being swung to produce centrifical force. In much the same principle as a lever, the farther the point is from you the more force that gets generated. You're able to generate much more force that way than you would be able to with a thrust. You can sort of do a little test of this yourself. Just imagine throwing a punch from your chest straight forward. Now raise your fist above your head and use it to hammer something. That hammer blow will have a lot more force behind it. Be careful, you don't want to hurt your hand.

The same thing happens with a sword. If you strike with the tip, it will have the most force. The tip is also the weakest part of a sword. It is recommended you try to strike things with the middle third of the blade since it gives you the best compromise between striking power and blade thickness.

Oh, and I neglected to say why swords are better. So if centrifical force is what produces a more damaging swing you need to concentrate on what produces more force. The two factors are length and weight. the more you can increase both the better. A sword is very efficient in...

First off Meirril can I just say I hate you right now. I was nice and happy with my preconceptions and katana. Then you gave me information and I got to bed at 12:30pm after 4 hours of researching and more ahead of me today. Anyway as things stand . . .

Rapier
No while I didn't have an entirely accurate image I did have the general concept right and it is just too specialized for me. It's not good at cutting, not good at melee, not good at armour and specialized for 1 on 1 civilian duels though admitedly it is very, very good at that.

Kukri/Cutlass
Also no they're just too short for me to want to use them.

Katana
Still shows up well in my research now decent at thrusts and cuts, good grip design though its not perfect.

Scimitar
Not much here though what I've found so far does make it seem possible.

So more research on Scimitar in comparison to the katana today. Honestly what I'd found last night makes the sabre tempting with a basket hilt but that's not an 18-20 crit weapon. I did think more cutting edge was actually a drawback because your spreading the force out over a larger distance as opposed to a thrust where its concentrate to a point?


Senko wrote:
Its more the charisma I insist on than the swashbuckler. You say take this trait that lets you use int in place of charisma and I get a different character personality image. Someone who uses careful reasoned arguments that you should do X rather than force of personality or a sherlock holmes style deduction that the person your looking for is down at the docks rather than actually talking to people. It is the concept that I want but when you move away from charisma as the primary stat it becomes a different one.

Just for curiosity's sake, do you feel there's a difference between two characters that have different Charisma mods but the same Diplomacy bonus?

Like say a 9 int/14 cha Swashbuckler that can only afford to place skill ranks in Diplomacy every second level, and a 14 int/9 cha Fighter that can do so every level. By level 5 they'd have the same Diplomacy bonus, and they're both using charisma for it.

Is the Fighter using less force of personality because they have more skill ranks, or have they just learned how to apply it?

Scarab Sages

Yes I do. The former is a charismatic person they may be horrible at public speaking but the force of their personality brings others along with them. The later is someone who may not have as much raw personality but has worked on learning tricks to influence and inspire others.

It's the difference between gathering a group of people together and going "We shall build this bridge and it shall be great." and watching the audience to see someone is quiet and directing actions to draw them in and involve them. A lot of ranks means you know how to pitch your voice to inspire confidence, its knowing how to guide a conversation so someone tells you what you want to know willingly. A high charisma means you walk into the bar and just make friends, you can get the whole bar singing a popular song along with you not because you used technique but simply because you are that big a personality.

Admitedly the end result may be the same going into the bar and getting information on where to look, even the methods may be similar. The difference is the fighter has learnt these techniques and when put in an off the cuff situation (in real life not ingame admitedly) may not do as well as the swashbuckler.

The problem in explaining it is while I can find plenty of sources on X can be learnt and applied to make you appear your more charismatic e.g. winston churchill who was naturally very bad at it and spent a lot of time learning what to do. There isn't any really suppliable source of charismatic but untrained because people don't normally film that by the time your being filmed even if your naturally charismatic you've learnt how to use it effectively (ranks). Best I can suggest is think about the people in your life and if there's someone who normally tends to be the leader or driving force in their group they may be the more charismatic. Maybe Bill in the movie IT?

Scarab Sages

Do you think I could get away with calling this sabre a scimitar?

https://www.medievalcollectibles.com/product/mermaid-basket-hilt-pirate-sab er/

Honestly I'm torn (non-stats wise) between this sabre (I think) design

https://www.michaeldlong.com/product/british-1821-wr-4th-heavy-cavalry-swor d/

or this kind of katana design

https://knifeworks.com/cold-steel-88abk-gold-lion-katana-30-damascus-steel- blade-ray-skin-handle-wood-scabbard/

If it weren't for the fact the former's a sabre not a scimitar/cutlass or the like and sabre is 19-20 I'd go with that.


To be honest, if you are looking at using an exotic weapon anyway the best sword for a swashbuckler is one that no one has mentioned (unless I missed it) the elven Thorn blade. If allows piercing or slashing, has an 18-20 crit range and gives a +2 on confirmation rolls which you really want.

Scarab Sages

baggageboy wrote:
To be honest, if you are looking at using an exotic weapon anyway the best sword for a swashbuckler is one that no one has mentioned (unless I missed it) the elven Thorn blade. If allows piercing or slashing, has an 18-20 crit range and gives a +2 on confirmation rolls which you really want.

Well now this is interesting. I actually have that book but I hadn't noticed the thornblade in there. I must have just sort of skipped by it and assumed it was another name for the elven curveblade as the leafblade talks about both in the same sentence. As a weapon that seems custom made for a swashbuckler . . .

It's 1 handed, it can already do piercing as well as slashing damage, it has a crit of 18-20, it specifies weapon finesse lets you use dex to attack (though that's less of an issue with swashbuckler), [b]attacks with an elven thornblade gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls made to confirm critical hits.[b] when you regain panache from critical hits. Sure its a little heavy at 4lbs, takes a feat and only does d6 damage but best of all (from my perspective) there's no picture or real weapon description so I can use the sabre design I like for concept with no problem.

I was more drawn by katana's genuine real world versatility in chosing it than it being an exotic weapon but this, yes I think this is perfect. Good for a swashbuckler, looks can be customized and everything about the weapon (assuming on one jumps in with something to ruin it for me) satisfies my personal need for a weapon to actually be viable if you were using it in real life.

Thank you for pointing it out for me now I just need to do the most difficult part and convince a GM to allow me to have the character use it. Well that and completely rebuild my equipment to allow for the extra cost (at 60gp its quite a bit more costly than a rapier).


If your gm will let you take it ancestral weapon regional trait is the best way to get the sword. Pick it in cold iron, now you get a masterwork one plus a bonus to hit equivalent to weapon focus for free. When you are a swashbuckler to hit is also part of your defense. It's severely OP, but if your gm will allow it it's awesome and it can be reflavored very easily.


Pathfinder weapons are more suggestions of a shape and weight given stats rather than a specific weapon. That heavy cavalry sword could be a scimitar, a saber, a cutlass, a long sword, a dueling sword, or even a rapier. As long as it is a one handed weapon with a long thin blade it fits the description close enough to use that picture.

The sword itself was designed to be used both as a thrusting weapon and for swinging. The curve is intended to help a mounted rider more naturally hold the blade while attempting to skewer a target that could possibly be mounted or on foot. The rider is suppose to twist their wrist to hold the blade straight with the tip pointing towards their opponent. I've always imagined the wielder getting a wrist injury doing this.

Thrusting weapons. They are effective because they create deep wounds. Most sword strikes leave shallow wounds. The blunt force trauma caused by a sword strike could break bones from the impact. A sword strike usually won't cut deep enough to cut organs. Thrusting on the other hand, reaches deeper into an opponents body.

Thrusting swords went in and out of fashion from ancient times to the Renaissance. Metallurgy just wasn't good enough to make a reliable thrusting sword. If an early sword was used to thrust enough, it would break. Well, it would break faster than one made for chopping. Thrusting was mainly left to spears that are designed to do just that and made from cheaper materials with the full intention of replacing the tip when it broke.

Metallurgy advanced a lot during the Renaissance and armor changed. Instead of trying to heavily armor one knight the focus changed to armoring soldiers. Trying to heavily arm an entire line of soldiers is incredibly expensive. Cost for performance became the goal for military suppliers. The Buff Coat became very popular at this time. A Buff Coat was basically a Buffalo skin coat, which would be about as effective as leather armor in Pathfinder, though some people would argue its closer to hide or leather laminar armor. Like weapons, armor is vague too.

One thing that heavily influenced armor at the time was the myth of heavy armor being ineffective against bullets. Sure, a bullet from a musket could punch through plate armor. It could also bounce off of the same armor. The difference is the angle of impact. If the bullet hits at a 45 degree angle it should glance. If the bullet hits at a 90 degree angle it should penetrate. Officers often wore metal armor sewn into leather and placed under their uniforms. While the armored shirts were of dubious effectiveness, there is more than enough testimonial to support that it was at least occasionally effective. Some protection is better than none.

Due to changes in metallurgy, blade production, and a shift in armor and the transition from knights to officers the nobility went away from heavy blades to a more 'refined and elegant' form of sword fighting called fencing. Blades became more sharp and thrusting was the intention of every fencing sword. The metal was more durable, the technique of making swords had improved, and armor was out of fashion. A thrust with your entire body weight behind it is quite effective and most fencing thrusts follow that principle. When you thrust your arm snaps straight and you push with your back foot to give yourself 'explosive thrust'. If you feel like fully committing yourself to a thrust you might even do a running thrust where you attempt to run by your opponent while thrusting. That generally doesn't work well, but if you catch your opponent by surprise, it is worth doing.

Scarab Sages

baggageboy wrote:
If your gm will let you take it ancestral weapon regional trait is the best way to get the sword. Pick it in cold iron, now you get a masterwork one plus a bonus to hit equivalent to weapon focus for free. When you are a swashbuckler to hit is also part of your defense. It's severely OP, but if your gm will allow it it's awesome and it can be reflavored very easily.

I'm pretty sure they wont because my book refers to it as Numerian still no harm checking. The helpful one recommened by another poster above is also tempting as it fits very well in their character. I'll probably take one of the WotR ones just need to decide which. However first I need to decide which path/s to go for.

Meirril wrote:

Pathfinder weapons are more suggestions of a shape and weight given stats rather than a specific weapon. That heavy cavalry sword could be a scimitar, a saber, a cutlass, a long sword, a dueling sword, or even a rapier. As long as it is a one handed weapon with a long thin blade it fits the description close enough to use that picture.

The sword itself was designed to be used both as a thrusting weapon and for swinging. The curve is intended to help a mounted rider more naturally hold the blade while attempting to skewer a target that could possibly be mounted or on foot. The rider is suppose to twist their wrist to hold the blade straight with the tip pointing towards their opponent. I've always imagined the wielder getting a wrist injury doing this.

Thrusting weapons. They are effective because they create deep wounds. Most sword strikes leave shallow wounds. The blunt force trauma caused by a sword strike could break bones from the impact. A sword strike usually won't cut deep enough to cut organs. Thrusting on the other hand, reaches deeper into an opponents body.

Thrusting swords went in and out of fashion from ancient times to the Renaissance. Metallurgy just wasn't good enough to make a reliable thrusting sword. If an early sword was used to thrust enough, it would break. Well, it would break faster than one made for chopping. Thrusting was mainly left to spears that are designed to do just that and made from cheaper materials with the full intention of replacing the tip when it broke.

Metallurgy advanced a lot during the Renaissance and armor changed. Instead of trying to heavily armor one knight the focus changed to armoring soldiers. Trying to heavily arm an entire line of soldiers is incredibly expensive. Cost for performance became the goal for military suppliers. The Buff Coat became very popular at this time. A Buff Coat was basically a Buffalo skin coat, which would be about as effective as leather armor in Pathfinder, though some people would argue its closer to hide or leather...

Interesting to know though right now I'm quite happy with baggageboy's suggestion of the thornblade, especially since its neither a real world weapon that carries associations for me nor a fantasy weapon I have trouble picturing being wielded (like certain fantasy swords that are 3 times the height of the wielder and half as wide across).


Senko wrote:
Yes I do. The former is a charismatic person they may be horrible at public speaking but the force of their personality brings others along with them. The later is someone who may not have as much raw personality but has worked on learning tricks to influence and inspire others.

But the 'charismatic' person also learns tricks since that's what the skill ranks represent. If both the Swashbuckler and Fighter had 20 skill ranks then their charisma modifiers would represent less than 15% of their total diplomacy bonus.

Does the swashbuckler stop being 'charismatic' now that ~90% of their bonus comes from learned behavior or experience, rather than force of personality?

Or does being 'charismatic' in pathfinder mean to have a high bonus in social skills?


Charisma will always be the most vague and hardest stat to pin down. Is it looks? Is it style? Is it force of will? Senko has a concept based around her own idea of being charismatic. Can we just accept that and move on from there?


I think everyone has accepted that this will be a Charisma-based Swashbuckler that now uses the Thornblade. The discussion regarding what makes someone 'charismatic' is me going off on a tangent, not an attempt to persuade Senko to change character.

The cha-based Swashbuckler is the most basic build possible since the Swashbuckler has no in-class choices to make except choosing Renowned Deeds. What's next is archetypes, but more than half don't matter and a third of them requires using a specific weapon. I do recommend the Dashing Thief but I don't know if that fits Senko's concept. I don't actually know what Senko's concept is, beyond 'generic Swashbuckler'.

Scarab Sages

Even if its less than 15% of their total bonus its still a part of that bonus, this is what I was saying about how hard it is to find something to show because charismtatic people generally learn techniques to make the most of that if they are in a situation where they would use it as opposed to smalltown farmer.

Charismatic, social, friendly person who if forced to fight does so using an agile if slightly showy fighting style. The charismatic, social part is more important than the fighting style but I don't want to shift to archer/mage/other. I am attempting to play a martial/face as best I can with this concept for a change after my mage got their throat cut due to the party being idiots.

I'm not sure dashing thief is really worth taking unless you actually intend to try and imitate a rogue as all its abilities seem a poor shadow of genuine rogue abilities or designed to force you into stealing things.


Senko wrote:
I'm not sure dashing thief is really worth taking unless you actually intend to try and imitate a rogue as all its abilities seem a poor shadow of genuine rogue abilities or designed to force you into stealing things.

The Thief's Confidence ability does not need to be used during actual combat. Just ask to spar with your allies and regain Panache between encounters. But the real benefit is the Rogue Talents. You can take the Weapon Training and Combat Trick talents to get combat feats at lv 4 and 8. But at lv 12 and forward you get advanced rogue talents.

Hide in Plain Sight, Improved Evasion, Opportunist, Rumormonger, Stalker Talent, etc.

Scarab Sages

Hmmm I'll take a closer look then and get back to you.

Scarab Sages

No go on the ancestal weapon trait as its Numerian regional and he doesn't see them using Elven Thornblades.

The dashing thief is a bit off from my concept but I think I could use it. The problem there is actually mechanical. It seems most of the traits are very rogue specific modifying sneak attack, to get the most benefit from a highly feat intensive and modify the base class by removing the ability to gain panache by killing something in exchange for stealing objects. Hmmmmm I shall need to think on this. There are some mechanical shenanigans that could offset this such as take ninja talent in place of rogue, take archon style, take archon redirection and rogue advanced talent rediricting strike to snatch an attack from an ally. If it doens't hit you parry and attack the enemy, if it does redirect it into them. Even just basic traits like deflect arrows could be useful.

The swordstyles also tempting . . .

Choose one weapon from the heavy blades or light blades fighter weapon group. While using this style, wielding the chosen weapon, and fighting defensively or using either the total defense action or the Combat Expertise feat, you gain a +1 shield bonus to your Armor Class.

and

This functions as a swashbuckler’s opportune parry and riposte deed, except that if your result is greater than your opponent’s, you gain a +4 shield bonus to your Armor Class against attacks made by your opponent until the start of your next turn instead of preventing the hit, and you cannot attempt to riposte. If you have the opportune parry and riposte deed, you gain this Armor Class bonus anytime you successfully parry an opponent’s attack.

Parry = + 4 shield bonus to AC against their attacks till the start of your next turn. The only gray area is if a Swashbuckler can choose the AC or the riposte depending on their needs at the time. Of course its pretty feat intensive to get there needing 5 other feats.


Senko wrote:
No go on the ancestal weapon trait as its Numerian regional and he doesn't see them using Elven Thornblades.

Ancestral Arms. And it's an Alternate Racial Trait, not a character trait.

Go to Archives of Nethys or the SRD page for the Half-Elf. Use the search function of your browser and type in "ancestral" or manually look for it.

Half-Elf wrote:

Ancestral Arms:

Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.

Scarab Sages

Wonderstell wrote:
Senko wrote:
No go on the ancestal weapon trait as its Numerian regional and he doesn't see them using Elven Thornblades.

Ancestral Arms. And it's an Alternate Racial Trait, not a character trait.

Go to Archives of Nethys or the SRD page for the Half-Elf. Use the search function of your browser and type in "ancestral" or manually look for it.

Half-Elf wrote:

Ancestral Arms:

Some half-elves receive training in an unusual weapon. Half-elves with this racial trait receive Exotic Weapon Proficiency or Martial Weapon Proficiency with one weapon as a bonus feat at 1st level. This racial trait replaces the adaptability racial trait.

That part of my post was actually aimed at Baggageboy's suggestion of a regional ancestral weapon trait that gives you a cultural cold-iron or silver melee weapon and a +1 bonus to attack rolls with it.

https://aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ancestral%20Weapon

Yours with a similar name is being weighed against the benefit of going full elf for the extra bonus to panache for favoured class. At the moment I'm leaning towards the later as its 1 feat plus losing adaptability vs 1 extra panache every 4 levels which seems a better deal.


Ah, my bad.

As for your two options, Half-Elves can actually also take the 1/4 Panache FCB.

Half-Elf wrote:

Elf Blood

Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.

So as a Half-Elf you have three racial Favored Class Bonuses to choose between. And both the Human and Elf Favored Class Bonus gives you one additional Panache point every 4th level.

Scarab Sages

Hmmm that wasn't in mine they got charmed life. I suppose that's an errata that does make the race/trait choice easier. I did think they got panache but my book disagreed.


The Half-Elf FCB is to increase your number of uses of Charmed Life. Correct.
But as a Half-Elf you can choose between the Elf, Half-Elf and Human FCB. And two of those options are to increase your Panache Pool.

Swashbuckler Favored Class Bonus wrote:

Elf: Increase the total number of points in the swashbuckler’s panache pool by ¼.

Half-Elf: Increase the number of times per day the swashbuckler can use charmed life by ¼.

Human: Increase the total number of points in the swashbuckler’s panache pool by ¼.

Grand Lodge

The FCB might go rather in HPs or skill points, the character won't really lack of panache unless the player decides to use it with reckless abandon, but I don't think the latter is really needed. It's already a problem if one has/chooses to. Buying plumes of panache might be sufficient, and don't cost that much. Using Charmed Life more times with the half-elf FCB is good too.

Didn't reply to the Occultist schtick earlier in the topic because I didn't have time, but I'll reply to Wonderstell : Character versatility is sometimes overvalued. If I have to rely too much on buffs or spells for baseline power, there's a problem, I prefer to be able to fight without any support if compelled, and Power Attack/Piranha Strike are decent in a just-in-case basis if precision damage (or sneak attack) doesn't work, and not using it if attack rolls are still barebone. Occulists need more work to build, more mental flux to run, and looking at more sources. I was able to create the swashbuckler in 5 minutes and play accordingly fast, while the former doesn't come as naturally at all.


I think you could do well if you went with 16 Dex and 12 for your Cha with the +2 from human to make it a 14 Cha. I'd recommend going Human so you can get 1/4 Panache per level and take Military Tradition (human alt racial trait) in lieu of your bonus feat so you can get x2 Exotic Weapon Proficieny in both Aldori Dueling Sword (or Katana, doesn’t matter, pick w/e you want) and Pistols. If you take Dirty Fighting, Imp/Grt Trip, Agile Maneuvers, and Combat Reflexes, and take the Heirloom Weapon trait for your ADS for +2 to trip (and don't get power attack/piranha strike), you could put out a ton of damage just from the AoO's. Any of your party members who threaten your target will get an AoO when he gets tripped, you get an AoO as well, and then he'll provoke AoO's from everyone when he gets back up too. Get a Fortuitous enchant for your weapon for an additional free AoO once per round whenever you get an AoO.

Race: Human

Trait:
Heirloom Weapon (+2 Trip, +1 to attack on AoO's —this also helps your Opportune Parry/Riposte)

Feats:

Lvl1: Weapon Finesse (ADS)-free, Human bonus feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (ADS), Human bonus feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Pistol), Feat: Weapon Focus (ADS)
Lvl2:
Lvl3: Slashing Grace (get +1 cruel enchanted asap for Menacing Swordplay for Shaken/Sicken combo)
Lvl4: Bonus feat: Dirty Fighting (+1 Panache 1/4 FCB) Dex +1
Lvl5: Combat Reflexes,
Lvl6:
Lvl7: Imp Trip
Lvl8: Bonus feat: Greater Trip (+1 Panache 1/4 FCB) Dex +1 (get +1 fortuitous enchanted for free AoO on GrTrip)
Lvl9: Agile Maneuvers
Lvl10:
Lvl11:
Lvl12: Bonus Feat: Critical Focus (+1 Panache 1/4 FCB)
Lvl13: Staggering Critical

Get a Belt of Dexterity +4 by level 9, and you should have a 22 in Dex.

Put a +1 Cruel Enchant on your weapon and max out Intimidate, then use Menacing Swordplay as a Swift Action to Intimidate your target, and any time you hit them with a Cruel Weapon, you'll do the Shaken/Sicken combo for a -4 to Attack/Saves/Skills/Abil checks and deal -2 damage. This will help your survivability a TON with a -4 to hit you. Mix that in with Combat Reflexes + Opportune Parry/Riposte and you're really tough to hit.

At level 9 with Agile Maneuvers, you could be rocking +9 BAB +4 Imp/GrtTrip +1 Weapon Focus +2 HeirloomWeapon +6 Dex +2 SwashWeapTraining = +24 to Trip, +28 to Trip while flanking, not including any other buffs from potions or allies, and you'll have 7 AoO's +1 free AoO from Fortuitous enchant. So basically each trip guarantees you 3 AoO's (2 on the way down, 1 when they get up), and you basically just substitute your 1st attack in the round as a Trip attempt to gain 3 AoO's.

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