Can I use my Dex modifier with Athletics when using a Finesse weapon?


Rules Discussion

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Verdant Wheel

Claxon wrote:

My answer would be you can only apply your dex modifier to the athletics checks if

1) The weapon you're using has a trait that implies you use the weapon to perform the maneuver. Example: Rapiers have the Disarm trait
2) The weapon in question also has the Finesse trait. Example: Rapiers have the Finesse trait

If both those are true then I would allow it, for example using dex while using a rapier to make a disarm check. You would use your athletics proficiency (which includes level) + str (or dex if using the appropriate weapon) + weapon rune bonus if appropriate + other item bonuses to athletics checks. Have I forgotten anything?

But, I wouldn't for example allow you use dex modifier on a grapple check while wielding a rapier, because you don't use a rapier to grapple.

Ooh. This solves the unarmed strike problem for me. thx!


Eh, to each their own. I would likely allow a player to use dex on a grapple with their "bare hands" so long as they justify the circumstances. This comes back to the lack of an agile maneuver feat for me.

Then again I was always a Ray Mysterio fan, so I like the idea of an agile wrestler.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'd be more inclined to allow Dex to moves that target reflex like Trip rather than fort targeters like Grapple.

Liberty's Edge

The most recent errata clarified that it is STR for Atletics checks, even if they have the Attack tag (and thus follow the MAP rules). And even with Finesse weapons.

Lantern Lodge

The Raven Black wrote:
The most recent errata clarified that it is STR for Atletics checks, even if they have the Attack tag (and thus follow the MAP rules). And even with Finesse weapons.

AND YET THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU:

Gortle wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
The most recent errata clarified that it is STR for Atletics checks, even if they have the Attack tag (and thus follow the MAP rules). And even with Finesse weapons.

No. That is not what was said in the errata.

What the errata clarified was that Athletics checks with the attack trait, are special attacks and are not attack rolls.

This undoes only one of the two arguments in this thread.

The second CRB PG. 233 "Skills: Key Ability" The GM can require or allow the use of different ability for skills as he sees fit. Is still valid.

So while STR may now be the default, I really do think that most GMs will still require DEX for tripping with Finesse weapons. With good justification.

Horizon Hunters

The Black Raven is correct. Here's the proof:

FAQ wrote:
Page 446: Attack Rolls. There was some confusion as to whether skill checks with the attack trait (such as Grapple or Trip) are also attack rolls at the same time. They are not. To make this clear, add this sentence to the beginning of the definition of attack roll "When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll."
Finesse Trait wrote:
You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still use your Strength modifier when calculating damage.

Trip is not an attack roll, you can not finesse with it. Please stop necroing threads.

Lantern Lodge

Cordell Kintner wrote:
Please stop necroing threads.

Yes, Black Raven, stop necroing threads!

Grand Lodge

Yayyy, so glad we’ve moved on to not two, but three threads where we can argument about this dead horse. Are there any more we can Necro?

Grand Lodge

Cordell Kintner wrote:
Trip is not an attack roll, you can not finesse with it

Well that’s funny, my players across two campaigns keep doing it and it works just fine

Liberty's Edge

The problem is that the errata clarified that dex does not work with athletic checks. So you need to update your approach.

And in PFS, that is how we should be running it now.

Sczarni

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Gary, the Core Rulebook gives GMs the freedom to allow players to use different ability scores for skills (I don't have the page number handy right now).

There is no PFS rule telling us GMs can't follow the Core Rulebook. It's not a houserule. It's a Core rule.

Now, I wouldn't count on that always being the case as a player, so I would certainly avoid building a character that relied on it.

But a player can certainly ask their GM if they think it's appropriate.

Sovereign Court

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My impression was that that was more an "on occasion, you might use a different ability for a skill check", not a "constantly for a commonplace thing and base your build on it" thing.

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:

Gary, the Core Rulebook gives GMs the freedom to allow players to use different ability scores for skills (I don't have the page number handy right now).

There is no PFS rule telling us GMs can't follow the Core Rulebook. It's not a houserule. It's a Core rule.

Now, I wouldn't count on that always being the case as a player, so I would certainly avoid building a character that relied on it.

But a player can certainly ask their GM if they think it's appropriate.

When it comes to GM Discretion, PFS GMs have to walk a fine line. Some things are the purview the table GM, like you suggest. Others are the Purview of the Organized Play Leadership, our Head PFS GM.

For me, unless something that is a GM Discretion has been given direction from the Head PFS GM, I will use the stated rule in the CRB. If there is an alternative, I will always use what is listed first. An example is how to handle critical damage.

For the discussion at hand, the errata has made it clear that dex cannot be used for Athletic skill checks. Having no other guidance from the Head PFS GM, I have to follow the rules in CRB.

So for PFS adventures I run, I will not allow dex from finesse weapon to be used to do something that requires and Athletics skill check.

And I feel all PFS GMs must do the same. The rules have been made clear.

But we will have table variation on this because some GMs don't like that someone can't use dex and will allow it. To me, these GMs are violating the first rule of GMing a PFS adventure: Follow the rules as they are written.

Sczarni

Can you please quote where it was clarified that Dex can *never* be used in place of Str for *specifically* Athletics?

The Paizo site still isn't fixed and I cannot view the errata, but I was able to download the newest CRB version, and I can't find anything along those lines.

You as a GM can absolutely tell your players how you will rule things at your table, but you can't tell other GMs how to run theirs, anymore than I can tell you how to run yours.

Grand Lodge

Quote:
Follow the rules as they are written

When org play leadership stops making incredibly bad decisions, starts making decisions on things that are desperately in need, and stop going completely silent as the campaign GM for months at a time (ie start acting like actual leaders), then I’ll pay their authority a bit more heed. Until then, I will default to the core rules. Not some of them, ALL of them and that includes the “first rule” and the fiat granted to the table GM. To my players, you have been informed. If you don’t like my table style, don’t play at my table.

Scarab Sages

Nefreet wrote:
Can you please quote where it was clarified that Dex can *never* be used in place of Str for *specifically* Athletics?

This is a really bad argument. Can you please quote where it states that STR can *never* be used in place of WIS for *specifically* Perception? Can you please quote where it states that CHA can *never* be used in place of CON for *specifically* Hit Points?

I don't like the rules change either, and I won't apply it to my home games, but there was a rules change. Pathfinder Society Organized Play is not your personal home game.

TwilightKnight wrote:
If you don’t like my table style, don’t play at my table.

Do you tell PFS players at your table about your house rules ahead of time?

Sczarni

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I'm still not seeing an answer to my question.

To answer yours, yes, the Core rules *do* allow me to tell my players they can use Str instead of Wis for Perception.

Example situation: PCs are stealing a prized work of art—a golden statue of Abadar.

As they're carrying it out, I call for Perception checks, but tell my players to use Str instead of Wis, because I as a GM know that the statue is a fake made of painted wood, and the weight difference would be noticeable as they carry it.

This is not a houserule.

Sczarni

Regarding Cha in place of Con for Hit Points, the Core rules do not give us, players or GMs, the flexibility to substitute different ability scores in the same way we can for Skills.

Doing so would be a houserule ^_^

Sczarni

Likewise, if I was a player at Gary's table and we were stealing a similar statue, I would not expect or demand him to call for Str in place of Wis for Perception.

It's going to be something that varies from GM to GM. And that's fine. Even in PFS.

Grand Lodge

NECR0G1ANT wrote:
Do you tell PFS players at your table about your house rules ahead of time?

It’s not house rules when it’s explicitly printed in the core Rulebook. Besides, I just said it, didn’t I?


Gary Bush wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Gary, the Core Rulebook gives GMs the freedom to allow players to use different ability scores for skills (I don't have the page number handy right now).

There is no PFS rule telling us GMs can't follow the Core Rulebook. It's not a houserule. It's a Core rule.

Now, I wouldn't count on that always being the case as a player, so I would certainly avoid building a character that relied on it.

But a player can certainly ask their GM if they think it's appropriate.

When it comes to GM Discretion, PFS GMs have to walk a fine line. Some things are the purview the table GM, like you suggest. Others are the Purview of the Organized Play Leadership, our Head PFS GM.

For me, unless something that is a GM Discretion has been given direction from the Head PFS GM, I will use the stated rule in the CRB. If there is an alternative, I will always use what is listed first. An example is how to handle critical damage.

For the discussion at hand, the errata has made it clear that dex cannot be used for Athletic skill checks. Having no other guidance from the Head PFS GM, I have to follow the rules in CRB.

So for PFS adventures I run, I will not allow dex from finesse weapon to be used to do something that requires and Athletics skill check.

And I feel all PFS GMs must do the same. The rules have been made clear.

But we will have table variation on this because some GMs don't like that someone can't use dex and will allow it. To me, these GMs are violating the first rule of GMing a PFS adventure: Follow the rules as they are written.

Repeating it here.

This is not the First Rule the group/GM can change anything they want. It could be but is not.

This is a specific rule, ( CRB PG. 233 "Skills: Key Ability") that the GMs are supposed to be interpreting the appropriate ability score to roll a particular skill against based on the particular situation.

This could and probably should be applied flexibly depending on the circumstances. A lot will depend on how the action is desribed to the GM.

For example:

For some Intimidation checks involving violence it may well be appropriate to use STR instead of CHA.

For a trip attempt with a whip (Finesse and Trip traits) - I lash out with my whip as he takes his step to trip him - may well cause the GM to ask for an athletics check with DEX not STR.

The discretion is built into the rule for skill checks. I know one of the goals of PFS is to give a uniform rules experience. But here the GMs explicitly have the option to interpret in the core rules.


Nefreet wrote:

I'm still not seeing an answer to my question.

To answer yours, yes, the Core rules *do* allow me to tell my players they can use Str instead of Wis for Perception.

Example situation: PCs are stealing a prized work of art—a golden statue of Abadar.

As they're carrying it out, I call for Perception checks, but tell my players to use Str instead of Wis, because I as a GM know that the statue is a fake made of painted wood, and the weight difference would be noticeable as they carry it.

This is not a houserule.

I don't agree with that reasoning strength isn't intuition which is what would tell them what the difference implies and thereby be a wisdom check still.

Strenght just tells them yes I can carry this.

Horizon Hunters

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Gortle wrote:

Repeating it here.

This is not the First Rule the group/GM can change anything they want. It could be but is not.

This is a specific rule, ( CRB PG. 233 "Skills: Key Ability") that the GMs are supposed to be interpreting the appropriate ability score to roll a particular skill against based on the particular situation.

This could and probably should be applied flexibly depending on the circumstances. A lot will depend on how the action is desribed to the GM.

For example:

For some Intimidation checks involving violence it may well be appropriate to use STR instead of CHA.

For a trip attempt with a whip (Finesse and Trip traits) - I lash out with my whip as he takes his step to trip him - may well cause the GM to ask for an athletics check with DEX not STR.

The discretion is built into the rule for skill checks. I know one of the goals of PFS is to give a uniform rules experience. But here the GMs explicitly have the option to interpret in the core rules.

Yes, you aren't citing rule 1 but you are citing a rule that allows for a different key ability in rare cases. Players shouldn't be asking their GMs if they can use DEX to trip all the time, GMs should be telling their players to use a different ability when it makes sense, to reward the players for being creative.

We all know GMs have a lot of wiggle room when it comes to these things, so we should focus more on the baseline and not the exceptions. The base assumption should be strict, and curious players should be told that's the rule. If they want to talk to their GM about it later that's out of our purview. If GMs are asking what a rule is, we should give them the base rule, and they can determine themselves if they want to change it.

If I wanted to, I could answer every single thread with "It's up to the GM" and technically I would be correct, but I wouldn't be adding anything to the discussion. This is what you are doing now. We all know this and you keep bringing it up, watering down the correct answer. Anything beyond the straight answer should be discussed in the respective player's personal games.

The final post here should be the correct answer to the Question of "CAN I USE MY DEX MODIFIER WITH ATHLETICS WHEN USING A FINESSE WEAPON?"

That answer is: The FAQ clarifies that Trip and other skill checks with the attack trait are not an attack rolls, and Finesse only applies to attack rolls. Therefore, you can not apply your Dex to Trip attempts using a Finesse weapon.

Sczarni

Schreckstoff wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I'm still not seeing an answer to my question.

To answer yours, yes, the Core rules *do* allow me to tell my players they can use Str instead of Wis for Perception.

Example situation: PCs are stealing a prized work of art—a golden statue of Abadar.

As they're carrying it out, I call for Perception checks, but tell my players to use Str instead of Wis, because I as a GM know that the statue is a fake made of painted wood, and the weight difference would be noticeable as they carry it.

This is not a houserule.

I don't agree with that reasoning strength isn't intuition which is what would tell them what the difference implies and thereby be a wisdom check still.

Strenght just tells them yes I can carry this.

Then the good news is you can rule it how you see fit ^_^


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Cordell Kintner wrote:


Yes, you aren't citing rule 1 but you are citing a rule that allows for a different key ability in rare cases. Players shouldn't be asking their GMs if they can use DEX to trip all the time, GMs should be telling their players to use a different skill when it makes sense, to reward the players for being creative.

I don't mind your argument. But you are taking it that step too far and it gives an unbalanced view of the situation.

In this thread the actual rule does not use the term "rare cases" but you emphasize it like its a quote.

Instead it says:
If the GM deems it appropriate for a certain situation, however, they might have you use a different ability modifier for a skill check or when determining your skill DC.
This is a rule for all skill checks of any type.

The complete answer to the Question of "CAN I USE MY DEX MODIFIER WITH ATHLETICS WHEN USING A FINESSE WEAPON?"

Should be: The FAQ clarifies that Trip and other skill checks with the attack trait are not attack rolls, and Finesse only applies to attack rolls. Therefore by default you do not apply your Dex to Trip attempts using a Finesse weapon. However the GM has explicit discretion to apply other ability scores to any skill check including this one.

Grand Lodge

Typical argument. One side says, “I can see both sides of the argument so it’s up to the GM to decide for their table” while the other side essentially says, “I’m right, you’re wrong”
It’s elitist and disrespectful


Yes I will admit my bias.

I think that Paizo have stuffed up here. Finesse weapons often have maneuver options like Trip and Disarm. These options are a major part of the reason to take such weapons. They add to the game especially for DEX based melee characters. Removing the explicit rule support for DEX with maneuvers was the wrong call IMHO. It leaves the game poorer.

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:

Regarding Cha in place of Con for Hit Points, the Core rules do not give us, players or GMs, the flexibility to substitute different ability scores in the same way we can for Skills.

Doing so would be a houserule ^_^

By that standard, you are not playing the game how you want, not how the game is written. Home games has that luxary. PFS games don't. For PFS GMs, if don't have a standard, we don't have a enjoy game for all.

Grand Lodge

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LoL, org play leadership let things like Battle Medicine fester for more than a year, so I’m no longer convinced they care all that much about table consistency. Their is a rather large and growing list of questions and arguable ambiguities in the rules that org play and sometimes even the designers are either unable or unwilling to clarify that table “consistency” is a bit of a myth.

As long as the org play rules say things like,
As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and responsibility to make whatever judgments, within the rules, that you feel are necessary at your table to ensure everyone has a fair and fun experience,”
and the core rules continue to say,
The first rule of Pathfinder is that this game is yours. Use it to tell the stories you want to tell, be the character you want to be, and share exciting adventures with friends. If any other rule gets in the way of your fun, as long as your group agrees, you can alter or ignore it to fit your story. The true goal of Pathfinder is for everyone to enjoy themselves,”
and,
If the GM deems it appropriate for a certain situation, however, they might have you use a different ability modifier for a skill check or when determining your skill DC,”
then we are going to feel justified in making good faith rulings at our table that differ from those of other GMs that in our estimation create an enjoyable experience for the players. If someone’s style or rulings do not match your own, org play is a huge community campaign, play with different people. A good sign that a GM is doing the “right” thing is that players and organizers keep seeking them out and returning to their tables.


I can't see how people are adamant on NOT allowing Dex to be used for things like disarm and trip. Anyone who has taken Judo, Juijutsu, Akido or Fencing knows for certain that Dexterity is far more important the Strength to perform these maneuvers. In fact, if you ARE using Strength to perform acts of Trips or Disarms using these disciplines, you are doing the maneuver COMPLETELY incorrect.

Having a character that is Dex based, where as they do less damage then strength based characters, shouldn't be penalized for activities that are obvious uses of Dexterity used in the place of Strength.

Besides it would be obviously thematic to have a Rogue trip an opponent. (or) Who thinks that it's a great idea to have a Swashbuckler suck at Tripping or Disarming? That would be the opposite of a good game mechanic.

Might also be interesting to let an Attack of Opportunity, if you have one, to Trip an Opponent that's trying to bypass them. That sounds very thematic for a Dex based Fighter.


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A three year old necro, but this was actually errata'd already. You do not add your Dex bonus to Athletics maneuvers while using a finesse weapon.

You can feel free to houserule it, but letting you know that it's one heck of a necro to an already settled discussion.


Ruzza wrote:

A three year old necro, but this was actually errata'd already. You do not add your Dex bonus to Athletics maneuvers while using a finesse weapon.

You can feel free to houserule it, but letting you know that it's one heck of a necro to an already settled discussion.

As I said in my post, I can not see why there is a rule against it. This is a fantasy setting 'rule' that is less capable then the real world.

I didn't even think of it before running across this, and will house-rule it without a second thought now that it was brought to my attention.

It makes absolutely no sense to not allow dex to be used in trips or disarms, not even for game balance. Game balance, just for it to make sense for Rogues and Swashbucklers, demand that there should be the option to use Dex in the place of Strength for these actions.


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Shain Edge wrote:
Ruzza wrote:

A three year old necro, but this was actually errata'd already. You do not add your Dex bonus to Athletics maneuvers while using a finesse weapon.

You can feel free to houserule it, but letting you know that it's one heck of a necro to an already settled discussion.

As I said in my post, I can not see why there is a rule against it. This is a fantasy setting 'rule' that is less capable then the real world.

I didn't even think of it before running across this, and will house-rule it without a second thought now that it was brought to my attention.

It makes absolutely no sense to not allow dex to be used in trips or disarms, not even for game balance. Game balance, just for it to make sense for Rogues and Swashbucklers, demand that there should be the option to use Dex in the place of Strength for these actions.

That's great, but there's no sense railing against it here two weeks before the remaster drops. See if it changes then, and if it doesn't just houserule it in your home game

There are plenty of things we all think "should be",for instance I believe any PC who has Dex as their key ability boost should get to use Dex for damage bonus with finesse weapons and unarmed attacks, not only Thief Rogues. But the authors have their vision and balance, they're not new to this, and if they don't want to change it by now our whinging is unlikely to sway them

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