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Intro:
I imagine that many people are familiar with the Painter Wizard, a hyper-tuned machine that combines game breaking mechanics and RAW rules, which adequetly demonstrates the need for this post. In short the creator of the "Painter Wizard" guide lacked a sufficient understanding of the Pathfinder rules to correctly construct his build, in part because he filled in the numerous blanks with illogical and unsupported assumptions.
The First Problem:
In terms of build time, the original poster was woefully under-rating the absurd time needed to construct even one Trompe L'Oeil.
Noted in the templates construction section: "A trompe L’oeil is created from a masterwork painting of the base creature, with a cost varying on the size of the subject... Price varies (100 gp per HD plus cost of painting)."
Therefore before we even construct our construct an adequetly value-ful mundane, masterwork painting must first be acquired. Assuming DM fiat one would reasonably craft their own. So lets assume we are building an Efreeti (Trompe L'oeil) as the "Painter Wizard" would attempt to do, we would need a size large masterwork painting valued at 3000gp. Using the normal mundane crafting rules, this effort would cost us 1000gp, and a DC 30 Craft(Painting) check, since we are accelerating. Ultimately, if we assume we have a +20 to our craft check and take 10 (reasonable since we are supposedly attempting this at Lvl5) the effort would take 334 Weeks to complete. Ok, now that we have the painting we can being crafting the actual construct which will take a mere 5 additional days at a DC20 Craft(Paint)/Spellcraft check, assuming the same wizard build). Sounds like a fun way to spend a campaign.
The Second Problem:
Alright, if problem one was not bad enough, lets dive head first into core reading comprehension for problem two.
The "Painter Wizards" master plan is to create a 10HD, size Large Efreeti to have it cast the Wish spell for us. However the Trompe L'oeil template does not actually mention if we keep any Spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, racial traits, or non-weapon/armor magic items from the creature we have copied.
In fact the template agonizes over what you do get to keep, which includes: natural attacks, weapon proficiency, All HD derived from class levels, BAB progression, Saving-Throw progression, Skills+INT per Lvl progression, and Natural Armor bonus. If the creature happens to be wearing any weapons, armor or shields, the construct also gets a masterwork copy of that item, made of paint, and since the creature you copy must be a "corporeal creature that has an Intelligence score" it gets normal feats per Lvl progression, but Nothing Else. Notably you could reassign the constructs feats and skills if you wanted as, "Most constructs are mindless, and so they do not have feats or skills. However, a small number of constructs have an Intelligence score, and their creator determines what feats and skill ranks the construct has when it is created. This choice cannot later be changed.".
Since we all know that Pathfinder is a rules based game of what you "can do" we understand that if you make an Efreeti (Trompe L'oeil) then you only get to copy what the template denotes, which does not include its' spell-like-abilities. Bummer. Some might argue that the template is an "Inherited Template" which only means "Creatures are born or created with these templates already in place, and have never known life without them." that is it. It is even hard to imagine what base statistics the Trompe L'oeil would have.
Luckily RAI helps us here as a formal version of the Trompe L'oeil exists. This formal version denotes the stats, of a construct made in the image of a Lvl 7 human aristocrat. By the example presented we can assume that the construct copies whatever base statistics the original creature possessed, or has only the base ability scores presented in that single entry (which are pretty trash). Well now this feels underpowered.
The Third Problem:
As if it was not bad enough, the "Painter Wizard" assumes his beloved Efreeti, Trompe L'oeil (which after these corrections would have been a monumental under taking to create), is in fact not going to spite him for those free wishes (which we already determined it would not have the ability to cast). Lets simply humor the goodly wizard here.
In terms of Alignment, "A Trompe L’oeil usually has the same alignment as its creator or the base creature. A Trompe L’oeil that seeks to destroy its original model, however, has an evil alignment (but the same alignment on the chaotic/lawful axis)". Wow they really used the word "usually" get ready for DM fiat. The developers have given free-reign here to a DM to just ruin the "Painter Wizard's" day as, if for some reason the DM allowed the template to copy all the nitty-gritty, Over-Powered abilities of it's original, then the DM could still just have the construct come out evil, after all that hard work. Yes, from page 6 of the Construct Handbook it does note that, "Once the crafting process is complete, the resulting construct is ready to receive orders. A construct recognizes its creator intuitively and obeys all commands issued to it by that individual." that does not mean that it wont use its intelligence to warp the meaning of your words and grant deleterious wishes. Ouch, last nail in the coffin.
So did you like the 3 problems I pointed out? There are 4 other problems I can think of regarding the "Painter Wizard" and its' poor use of RAW. That being said those problems are only small ones, not worth mentioning. Now this is a rules question forum... so where are my rules questions? Well, for those that read through my notes, I pose the question to you, did I miss anything? Are my numbers correct? Are my notions sound and logical for RAW, and RAI where it was mentioned?. Please get back to me as I would love to read what stance you take on the whole or part of the matter. I appreciate you stopping by.
#1: yes, if you can't buy a life-size, realistic painting of an efreeti this painter wizard isn't going to work. Even trying to make it you'd need to get the efreeti to sit for initial sketches at least.
#2: this probably goes against you. The template is applied to the creature that the painting represents. Not a generic efreeti, not a generic Trompe l'Oeil, some actual efreeti. It doesn't say it loses special abilities.
#3: absolutely true. When granting wishes the efreeti trompe l'oeil is going to try to screw you over the same way the original would. It has the same personality only even more likely to be evil.
1 is partially correct and also irrelevant: A high intelligence wizard has no difficulty maxing Craft (Painting). Without a DC listed, it defaults to (at highest) the DC20 for a complex or superior item. You don't even need to be trained to hit a DC20 craft check as a level 1 wizard (+4 int, +5 Crafter's Fortune, +2 masterwork tools), let alone one high enough to actually start crafting constructs.
2 is incorrect: If a template doesn't remove something, the templated monster keeps it.
3 is irrelevant: If your GM wishes to play that game, just make a Helm of Opposite Alignment and have your painting put it on and off till it rolls a 1 then enjoy your CG wish machine. Also you've got the skill points to max out Profession (Barrister) and stop twisting dead.
1) Making the paintings yourself without Fabricate or some other magical means to hurry the production would add a lot of time. Finding an appropriate picture would be as easy as searching the market in any large sized city that has a market capable of producing items in the 2000 gp range. So any city, and you can get them more frequently than you'd be able to produce new Tromps.
2) As said before, templates add abilities to existing creatures. Tromp is a template, the base creature only gets modified by the parts mentioned in the template.
3) I think this is the most valid part of the argument against. GMs shouldn't allow a wish machine to be created, and I think if a GM allowed a player to walk down this path it would be poetically fitting for the Tromp to turn evil after granting its first wish, and promptly destroy its creator. Especially for an Effrit or other genie who only grant wishes when bargaining for their lives. Or one of the various Demons and Devils that use their wishes to create strife and spread evil.
1) Making the paintings yourself without Fabricate or some other magical means to hurry the production would add a lot of time. Finding an appropriate picture would be as easy as searching the market in any large sized city that has a market capable of producing items in the 2000 gp range. So any city, and you can get them more frequently than you'd be able to produce new Tromps.
I think it would be fairly easy to get a painting.. but a painting of a specific creature would probably have to be randomly rolled. The rarer the type of creature it is/was probably the harder to find a painting of one.
I don't have the book at hand... but since a Trompe is a template applied to a creature... does the painting have to be a specific individual (so that the painter either had to have the creature model for them, or have had direct interaction with the creature in hand, so they can paint them from memory)? Or can a painter just use their imagination and paint (what they believe to be) some generic efreeti, which isn't based on any specific creature, and that the Trompe would work fine in this instance?
Nothing clearly indicates it has to be or can't be. There's mention of self-animating ones that seek to destroy the original. Would be interesting story for one to learn there is no original.
One AP has a Trompe l’Oeil made after the original's death, though the portrait was explicitly made before she died. That and the mention of self-manifesting ones makes it clear the painting doesn't need to be specially made for the creation of the construct.
It's supposed to be a painting so realistic it can just come to life. Without a model that's going to be either much harder or outright impossible. If you took a human model and added efreeti features I think you'd get a trompe l'oeil of a human in makeup at best.
Base Value: The base value of a settlement is used to determine what magic items may easily be purchased there. There is a 75% chance that any item of that value or lower can be found for sale in the settlement with little effort.
If you can find any magic item with a market value of 4,000 gp or less in a small city, I don't see why you can't find paintings of certain creatures with the same value in the same city. Sure, use the same 75% chance, and make the players use skills to locate them. That seems fair. But all in all, a mundane item shouldn't be harder to locate than a magic item. Especially since adding Masterwork to a generic item only increases the value by 50g...
But all in all, a mundane item shouldn't be harder to locate than a magic item.
Normally, yes. But this isn't an item from some list of equipment. It is an extremely specific, extremely unusual example of it's type.
Those rules are only going to carry us so far. I mean, does a character really have a 75% chance of finding, say, a tapestry of their great aunt slaying a centaur ghost, woven from kelp and angel hair and dyed with the blood of 57,000,000 pixies? No. There is a 0% chance of finding this particular item. Just because you can imagine it does not mean that you can write it down in your inventory 75% of the time.
It's supposed to be a painting so realistic it can just come to life. Without a model that's going to be either much harder or outright impossible. If you took a human model and added efreeti features I think you'd get a trompe l'oeil of a human in makeup at best.
I disagree. Until 2008 art experts weren't sure if the Mona Lisa had a model or if the woman was purely a product of Leonardo's imagination. Plenty of ancient Roman statues of fictional characters are indistinguishable in quality from those of real people.
The artist might need to have seen some efreeti to pull it off, but creating an imaginary one doesn't strike me as impossible.
But all in all, a mundane item shouldn't be harder to locate than a magic item.
Normally, yes. But this isn't an item from some list of equipment. It is an extremely specific, extremely unusual example of it's type.
Those rules are only going to carry us so far. I mean, does a character really have a 75% chance of finding, say, a tapestry of their great aunt slaying a centaur ghost, woven from kelp and angel hair and dyed with the blood of 57,000,000 pixies? No. There is a 0% chance of finding this particular item. Just because you can imagine it does not mean that you can write it down in your inventory 75% of the time.
I agree with Quixote here. Extrapolating and adding a couple points of my own.
What if the creature they are trying to get a painting of is so rare, that only Sages, specializing in a particular field would have a chance of knowing what it was/recognizing one... are you going to tell me that a painting of that thing should be easy to find?
The bigger you go on paintings, also, I would figure would also increase the difficulty. I think if you wanted to do a Trompe L'Oeil (TLO) of a colossal creature, then you also need a colossal painting right? Not many artists work in mediums so large regularly, if at all.
Using the normal mundane crafting rules, this effort would cost us 1000gp, and a DC 30 Craft(Painting) check, since we are accelerating. Ultimately, if we assume we have a +20 to our craft check and take 10 (reasonable since we are supposedly attempting this at Lvl5) the effort would take 334 Weeks to complete.
3000 gp become 30,000 sp as the goal post when tracking progress for using the Craft skill. DC 30 * Craft Check Result of 30 = 900 sp of weekly progress. 30,000 sp / 900 sp = 33.34 weeks or 33 & 1/3 weeks. Or 34 weeks if you round it for simplicity.
34 weeks is quite a bit shorter than 334 weeks.
Even using Alternate Crafting Rules, and assuming the DC is 30, 3000 gp / 16 gp per day = 187.5 days, which rounds to 188 days. Or a bit over 6 months. Even if we instead assume that the DC is 20, hitting 30 puts that at 12 gp of progress per day for 250 days of mundane crafting, or 8 and 1/3 months.
avr wrote:
It's supposed to be a painting so realistic it can just come to life. Without a model that's going to be either much harder or outright impossible. If you took a human model and added efreeti features I think you'd get a trompe l'oeil of a human in makeup at best.
So how hard do you then have to nerf illusion magic to make that bear out?
Offhand, I can't see any way of doing so consistently that isn't a resounding "way too hard."
Tallyn wrote:
What if the creature they are trying to get a painting of is so rare, that only Sages, specializing in a particular field would have a chance of knowing what it was/recognizing one... are you going to tell me that a painting of that thing should be easy to find?
Then you have a disconnect between in-character knowledge and player knowledge, rather than an issue that has anything to do with theorycrafting or general principles in and of itself. That or some kind of setting issue, I suppose.
I don't really think characters trying to make a trompe l'oeil of a creature they don't even know exists and have never seen is something that bears a whole lot of mental effort spent on it, at any rate.
Tallyn wrote:
The bigger you go on paintings, also, I would figure would also increase the difficulty. I think if you wanted to do a Trompe L'Oeil (TLO) of a colossal creature, then you also need a colossal painting right? Not many artists work in mediums so large regularly, if at all.
Muralists are not so rare that a level 5+ character could not be one or find one. Not without some intense departures from default setting assumptions, anyway.
Are people really arguing the time to make the initial painting is important? In the absolute worst case it just delays the abuse till level 9, when the Wizard can create the painting with fabricate. It's not relevant.
Are people really arguing the time to make the initial painting is important? In the absolute worst case it just delays the abuse till level 9, when the Wizard can create the painting with fabricate. It's not relevant.
I mean, incorrect math is incorrect math.
But time to create is only relevant if you're trying to make Trompe l'Oeil in an actual game that aren't for the purpose of going all Pun-Pun and don't want to wait until 9th level, aye. (...Or pay someone to cast Fabricate for you as a Spellcasting Service. It only adds, what, 450 gp to the price tag?)
every time i see an argument about a build that may or may not (depend on reading etc) break the game i recall back to souldrinkers who by raw (and even after the nurf they took) can still craft for free at 2nd prestige class level. (ring of wishs anyone?)
2 soul point (soul pool limit at 2nd class level) worth 1k gp total, Enervation 2/day. buy 2 house centipede for 1 cp each and grab 1000 gp worth of crafting.
or summon something and zap it for free, save the 2 cp for torches..
(and if it has 2 hd you are more then likely have enough to double your crafting limit by adding +5 to dc and doing two 1000 gp session of cafting a day.)
and this class was actuly nurfed from the old printing when it was open to enter after 5th level.(back when book of the damned III was it's own thing) so it was something the dev's seen and approved twice at least!
i always figured that the 'obey the creator' part of construct crafting was mostly because all of them (normally) had no int score so they were like a machine doing what it is told (and don't get started on 'bring me a cup of water' obvious fail point...).
way i see it once they get int score they can decide for themselves (like when they decide to murder their original painting model) and no longer take orders they don't feel like obeying. (unless creator also has a kill switch, and look at what happened to Dr. Gero...)
This debate on where can you find a realistic painting is the kind of thing i made my thread on what quality item do various craft checks generate to answer. Is your painting of a cat looking like a tree to the viewer or is it a masterpiece even extra planar beings hear of and want to buy. Are your goblets so beutiful people are seeking you out to buy them. Do your diagrams of your dissections of defeated enemies get quoted by learned doctors and the city guard. Sadly the response was generally why are you wasting time thinking about this.
zza ni wrote:
i always figured that the 'obey the creator' part of construct crafting was mostly because all of them (normally) had no int score so they were like a machine doing what it is told (and don't get started on 'bring me a cup of water' obvious fail point...).
way i see it once they get int score they can decide for themselves (like when they decide to murder their original painting model) and no longer take orders they don't feel like obeying. (unless creator also has a kill switch, and look at what happened to Dr. Gero...)
Thats why one of my rules of crafting is never make something you cant kill if it launches a surprise attack. Another is if your making something intelligent give it a moral code and try to make friends with it. Wouldnt help much on breaking the game but thats not my goal.
Since we all know that Pathfinder is a rules based game of what you "can do"...
This isn't actually true. Sometimes the rules tell you what you can do. Sometimes the rules tell you what you can't. Everything else you have to extrapolate/infer from context/GM fiat/etc.
e.g: Are there any rules that tell you how to handle sliding down a set of stairs on a shield while shooting orcs in the face with your bow? No.
Could a GM setup a series of skill checks/feat requirements etc to allow a player to do this? Yes.
While we would consider this an impossible feat in the real world (largely on account of their being no real world orcs), it is certainly well within the realm of high fantasy story telling.
Once the crafting process is complete, the resulting construct is ready to receive orders. A construct recognizes its creator intuitively and obeys all commands issued to it by that individual.
well yes. as i said that part right there ('A construct recognizes its creator intuitively and obeys all commands issued to it by that individual.') about obeying the orders - in my game it's because of having no int score so it does what it is programed to - follow the creator orders
once it has an int score it is no longer bound by said rule
- again this is not the rules, it's my own spin on them. the 'follow all orders it gets without thinking them over' is because it has no brain to think them over.
It “obeys” commands, but not necessarily to the best of its abilities. It can have its own goals. If you create an unfriendly portrait, you better be prepared to deal with a jerk genie scenario, and word all of your commands very carefully. For instance, if you tell it to stay in a room, be prepared for it to escape with the room.
