Why do you not use actual spells and why do you have an animal companion as a Storm Druid? Why are you spending "each combat" only casting cantrips?I feel this in my soul. I never thought a blaster Storm Druid playstyle wouldn't be mechanically supported, but each combat is just half damage electric arcs/rays of frost and me deciding if its better to raise my shield or move 25 feet away from a monster and risk an AoO. It's incredibly dull. Sometimes I get to give my animal companion an extra action but most of the time he's just playing catch up anyways.Part of the issue is simply you being new to the system and having a thematic idea that didn't get supported mechanically. I agree with the other poster about a fighter dedication.
Maybe ask your GM to let you redesign your character to fit your thematic concept
Sorry I totally forgot about this post until today, but other people have touched on most of it. I'll use Tempest Surge once a fight to be efficient with my focus points, but it's damage is meh and is often resisted. I have 6 spells a day right now, and I have to take a few utility/buff spells but that's just playing roulette, since they might not actually be needed that day.
As an example, I've taken Dispel Magic every session since getting level 2 spell slots and haven't had an opportunity to use it once. I've had multiple sessions go by where I took Feather Fall or Spider Climb and never actually needed them.
So yeah in one combat I'll try and cast a Shocking Grasp or Gust of Wind, but again, often resisted and have minimal impact. I picked up Order Explorer in to Animal Order because I knew I'd have a lack of options so at least having another chunk of HP on the field is useful. Plus when I do use him to attack, he does more damage than I do anyways.
I'm glad Kelseus is enjoying cantrip spam, because I can't feel the same. I'm level 5, so doing on average half of 2d4 every round feels...
If you find yourself feeling like you are frequently preparing spells that you can't cast, or are no fun when you do cast them, you probably need to keep exploring your spell list and try memorizing some different spells. If you are level 5, you can probably consider buying a couple of low level scrolls for the incredibly situational utility spells so you don't have to waste resources that you want to be able to spend every day.
Also, talk to your GM. Express that you feel like you need help choosing spells that you will actually get to use and have fun with in the game. Talk to your party. Tell them the same and try to come up with some one-two punches as a team that can really make everything more fun. Like maybe your barbarian can spend their 3rd action intimidating and you can delay your turn so you go right after, ensuring that you get to take advantage of that round their are afraid 1. If your barbarian is a two-handed smasher, it is probably a mistake to try to compete with them for top damage dealer, rather look for ways to set up their power attack super smash, including holding enemies in place so the barb doesn't have to run around the battlefield so much.
I don't think shocking grasp is a particularly great spell for a druid (which I get is frustrating if your goal was being the lightning master, but lightning bolt at level 3 is much better for feeling that vibe and combining it with electric arc should have you covered well. But again, not everyone in the party should be just competing to see who can hit the hardest and do the most damage. Every party member should be looking for ways to make sure they can help everyone else be as efficient with their actions as possible.
Gust of wind requires a critical save to be fully resisted. Is it really "often resisted?" Also Fleet step fits the fast as lightning theme well and can let you move around enough to better control the battle field in open terrain where maybe the lines of gust of wind feel underwhelming. Mist spells don't worry about saves and fit the theme really well too.
I can sympathize that shocking grasp looked like the spell to build your character around, but the druid really misses out on not getting true strike and spectral hand, which are the two spells that can really get that spell moving for you. Instead, especially if you just hit 3rd level, look at what you can do with spells that don't require an attack roll, but can still do damage. Electric arc and lightning bolt can really work well for you and obscuring mist is the spell that lets you dominate a part of the battlefield, because you are immune to its effects.
This is a decent damage build, but the barbarian is going to always be better at single target damage because that is pretty much their one niche.
Gust of wind is brutally good at battlefield control in the close confines of a dungeon environment, but not worth memorizing if you are going to be fighting out in the open.
Fleet step is a self-buff only. Its value is allowing you to move quickly around the battlefield, taking maximum advantage of the line effect of lightning bolt, and make sure you don't get destroyed when you start hitting the entire battle line of your enemies.
Storm order druids are a little tricky at level 2 and four because they don't have any useful druid feats, but I am not sure animal companion was a great idea for a blaster because it eats up so many of your actions. Call of the wild might be a better feat to consider retraining in, so you can have a animal to move around the battlefield when you really want it, but you don't really need to worry about keeping it alive and it gives you a little more utility later in the adventuring day when you realize you are sitting on a spell that you aren't going to be utilizing, and you have a 10 minute break.
Also, burning your resources on heal scrolls and potions for the party is a major bummer and an example of them not pitching in. If the expectation is that you provide the magical healing for the party, and you don't want to use your spells to do it, then, at the very least everyone should be paying an equal share of those resources.
While I agree with you on the macro level, it's extremely disappointing when you're trying to build a blaster character and the best advice you get is to play support.
Unfortunately, the true blaster characters are sorcerers. Druids are very polyvalent, honorable blasters, but not incredible ones.
Also, to me, it really looks like a party composition issue. You are better off healing and buffing, but who else in the party does that? If you are the only buffer/healer, then this role befalls to you just because no one else took it. And if the Barbarian is a Giant one, so all on offense and nothing on defense, he is burying you in support even more. If I'm not mistaken, you need to speak with your fellow party members about your expectations. No one should be forced to play what he doesn't want to play.
And, as a side note, Electric Arc competes with Barbarian Rage at low level. I'm always surprised to see my Scoundrel Rogue being the main damage dealer of the party next to our Barbarian and Fighter just because I can mix Electric Arcs and Strikes.
While I agree with you on the macro level, it's extremely disappointing when you're trying to build a blaster character and the best advice you get is to play support.Unfortunately, the true blaster characters are sorcerers. Druids are very polyvalent, honorable blasters, but not incredible ones.
Also, to me, it really looks like a party composition issue. You are better off healing and buffing, but who else in the party does that? If you are the only buffer/healer, then this role befalls to you just because no one else took it. And if the Barbarian is a Giant one, so all on offense and nothing on defense, he is burying you in support even more. If I'm not mistaken, you need to speak with your fellow party members about your expectations. No one should be forced to play what he doesn't want to play.
And, as a side note, Electric Arc competes with Barbarian Rage at low level. I'm always surprised to see my Scoundrel Rogue being the main damage dealer of the party next to our Barbarian and Fighter just because I can mix Electric Arcs and Strikes.
A little multiclass into sorcerer for the Dangerous Sorcery feat is fairly compulsory if you really want to play a blaster as a storm druid. It works quite well with auto heightened focus spells.
An animal companion is a useful thing even if you don't want to use it in combat all the time. One feat is not too much to pay. But one action every turn is too much. Bring it in when it works otherwise let it sit out.
I normally play with a house rule that everything that could use a basic saving throw is a basic saving throw, as long as it doesn't contradict anything else in the spell. All other normal affects apply as well. I guess that favours the casters a fair bit too. But mostly it is just fun.
But seriously everyone has more hit points again in this version of the game, so blasting is hard. You do have other spell options.
A little multiclass into sorcerer for the Dangerous Sorcery feat is fairly compulsory if you really want to play a blaster as a storm druid. It works quite well with auto heightened focus spells.
Dangerous Sorcery doesn't affect focus spells. Only slot spells.
Also, multiclassing into sorcerer asks for 14 Charisma, so, not that easy to get for everyone.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Am I underestimating the number of single-action spell options?
If not, how do you make spellcaster tactics as new and enjoyable as non-caster tactics? Or is it just a matter of dealing with it being the same as before?
1) There are a lot of one action options like shield/move/strike/recall knowledge and some spells. If you are a sorcerer or a bard you will have some good single action options in terms of your bloodline/cantrips
2) Focus Points are a different resource to manage. As a caster you should have a focus spell that interests you. 10 minute refocus rest can get you something back.
3) Cantrips are better. Take a few extras so you can have a range. Most of them have their place. Stop using the same one all the time.
4) Some of the staples like heal and harm have genuinly interesting choices to make when you use them.
5) You can get into weapons a bit if you like. Its a bit behind the martials but its not pointless either. True Strike Bespell Weapon
6) If you are just looking at the classic spells then you are missing the best part of the game. PF2 has some very new and good spells. Especially at mid to high levels.
7) Summoning is totally open - you can get literally any creature of that type from the book. Level is limited, but still.
and most importantly
8) Illusions are back. Because they are not just automatically hosed by True Seeing any more.
Against above level enemies my spells could struggle causing my animal companion to do more damage than my 4th level spells.
I never quite figured it out but I was looking to find more ways to contribute against higher level enemies. I expected expanding my save targeting would have helped as I was a little too reflex focused.
Anything that relies on them making a save is just bad news when you are going against the wrong side of a level difference. So, find their weakest save which means you need the option of different spells. But that still might only critically fail on a one.
OrUse magic that doesn't requires saving throws or still has a partial effect if they save. That is use walls, defensive and offensive buffs and heal to keep the martials up. Flank as much as you can. Their better to hits are really important when you are stretching to make the numbers.
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I agree for the mostnpart with the OP. No matter how you cut it martials get to choose to do 3 different things per round to casters 2. All the extra bonus actions a caster can take are available to a martial too, they just get more choices each round.
This is exasperated by early action economy feats available to martials from the get go where as casters have to wait till much later to get their action economy feats. I feel Paizo were way too conservative and over nerfed casters. There may be better number balance but over all balance of fun is lacking.
Simple fix would be just to add some action economy feats at lower levels for casters.
Examples
Once per round after you cast a spell you can immediately take the stride action as a free action.
Once per round when you cast a spell with the range of touch you can immediately make a melee strike.
Once per round when taking a move action you can also make a Recall Knowledge check as a free action.
Once per round after casting a touch range spell you can raise your shield as a free action.
Simple, doesn't require changing any rules as written but helps casters out a lot for action economy.
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People keep saying martial get to take three actions and casters only two, but very rarely do I see martial getting to take their 3 most efficient or desired actions in a turn. It is fairly resource and action intensive for martial s to act as switch hitters. Melee martial send up spending a lot of actions moving and far too often I see martials do things that involve putting themselves adjacent to an over powered enemy and getting walloped, basically necessitating that a caster save them. The casters save them and then the martial gets 3 or more actions (because of the casters) to make their best attack stick and everyone is singing the praises of the martial.
Ranged martials are better at maximizing action efficiency, but damage much more compatibly to casters and still end up having to take defensive actions often if here are no meleecharacters around. Casters often have good options at multiple ranges and to be aggressive or defensive without having to waste a bunch of actions to do so.
A lot of what i’ve Seen argued here seems to be putting characters in the same party in competition rather than in a team. There are martial builds that can really make blaster casters sine (scoundrel rogue) and there are martial builds that do so much damage (the barbarian) that helping them hit is much better than trying to focus on doing damage on your own. With the rogue, it’d Be a waste to try to focus on buffing the martial as your main shtick in the same way it’s a waste of time to try to out damage a barbarian.
Teen tactics mater a lot and can make everyone have a lot more fun
I want to reiterate Unicore's point. The melee fighters in my group would often spend at least one action to step or stride each turn, if not two. That's because if you're fighting an at level creature it is GOING to hit you! It has a 50-50 to crit on the first attack. If you stand right next to it it will hit you with all 3 attacks. You better hope someone has a heal or similar in the chamber or you're toast.
The front liners never got all three attack actions, it just didn't happen. It wasn't worth the third attack to risk standing next the the bad guy when his turn came around.
I want to reiterate Unicore's point. The melee fighters in my group would often spend at least one action to step or stride each turn, if not two. That's because if you're fighting an at level creature it is GOING to hit you! It has a 50-50 to crit on the first attack. If you stand right next to it it will hit you with all 3 attacks. You better hope someone has a heal or similar in the chamber or you're toast.
The front liners never got all three attack actions, it just didn't happen. It wasn't worth the third attack to risk standing next the the bad guy when his turn came around.
Not saying your points about tactics are wrong, but it's more like a 25/30% chance to crit. A bearded devil (level 5) has a +15 to hit, while a level 5 PC should have 20/21 AC.
EDIT: Actually, the chance is even lower, I forgot to add the +2 to AC from trained. So a bearded devil only has a 15/20% chance to crit a level 5 PC with 22/23 AC.
In Zombicide: Black Plague, as soon as you hit the yellow XP marker, you get a 4th action per round! Let's do that.
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The front liners never got all three attack actions, it just didn't happen. It wasn't worth the third attack to risk standing next the the bad guy when his turn came around.
Maybe. Unless there is something else going on (you've got more mobility, somebody has attacks of opportunity, the monster has a useful 3rd action, etc) you're just costing the monster its third attack (very likely to miss) by not spending your third attack (very likely to miss). And sometimes moving opens up the squishies.
A ranger with the flurry option on his prey can use the 3rd attack quite handily (I know it's a corner case). Also, a fighter with a halberd can hit twice from 10 feet away, then back up five feet with his 3rd action. If they move up on him, whammo.
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Regardless of what the fighter chooses to donwith the 3rd action they still most rounds get to make three meaningful choices even if the last one is to move into a better position.
Spellcaster get 2. Its less tactical choices per round. This is especially bad at lower levels where to be honest most of the game is played and cwrtainly people's first impressions come from.
People trying to defend that a melee's 3rd action is often just movement are missing the point. A caster typically doesn't even get to do a 3rd thing. They are cast and move or cast and recall knowledge or intimidate. Not having the flexibility to position cast then do a 3rd thing like classes who's default action is 1 action is never going to be as fun. Spells were heavily nerfed to reduce damage and control so its not even about balance anymore.
People are also ignoring skill feats like sudden charge that improve action economy for martials.
OP is right. Casters do not really get to interact with the 3 action economy. Very few spells are not standard 2 actions. Very little thought was put into improving caster playstyle.
Lastly Recall Knowledge should never have cost an action. Should have been a free action or free to combine with a stride or step action. Who needs to stand still to think? What movies or stories do the heroes suddenly have to stop moving to remember something? Does it make a fun play experience. Making it a free action wouldn't even buff casters anymore than martials.
Casters need more action economy feats at lower levels. More spells could be considered for being 1 action or just make it so you can stride as part of casting a spell. Fixes a lot of issues for casters feeling mostly like turrets. Cast and sustain or cast and move is not great. The free sustain feat could have come a lot earlier even if it was school based. Actually a lot more school based or elemental damage based feats could help wizards and casters in general.
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OP is right. Casters do not really get to interact with the 3 action economy. Very few spells are not standard 2 actions. Very little thought was put into improving caster playstyle.
This is neither true, nor a fair assessment of how much time went into redesigning the magic system of PF2.
Firstly, Most Martials have obligatory actions to take in the first round of combat: Initiating stances, rage, hunt target, etc. If the martial is also trying to tank, it is quite common for a martial to not attack at all in the first round of combat. If it is a martial who can choose not to move, but intimidate in their first round, and the caster's wait to go until immediately after, the martial is acting to buff all casters, and the enemy is likely to have to waste actions to move closer. Perhaps to try to target a caster, but, if the party is positioned correctly, not more than with one attack, which should not pose an immediate KO threat.
Between shield, guidance, heal/harm, magic missile, jump, true strike, Edit: Endure, Liberating command, (picking only level 1 and cantrip spells, there are more higher level ones) and focus spells, there are a lot of one action casting options that a player can use creatively and effectively. Additionally, there are a lot of summoning/sustained spells that might take two or three actions to cast, but then can be used to punished enemies every round with only one action. With the right spells, a caster doesn't have to be using their heavy artillery every round to be very effective, but they can when they need to, which gives them extra utility.
Being a caster is very interesting in PF2, unless your only goal in play is "what is the maximum potential damage I can inflict with each action?" which is usually not a great mindset for more than one or two party members and then it should be the rest of the party's job to help those party members maximize their efficiency at doing so.
The caster can be either the damage dealer or the supporter, but only if the rest of the team is willing to play ball, and cover the other role.
Spell selection is a little complicated in PF2. Starting from a purely thematic place instead of mechanical one can mean picking too many spells that all do the same thing, and not give you much flexibility, especially in terms of action economy. However, there are a lot of less flashy spells that can easily fit into many different caster's lists that will give you options to make sure you can move where the enemy can't follow in one action, or complicate the battlefield.
Additionally, thinking that casters should only attack with cantrips is a big mistake. Casters should carry a ranged weapon as well, because they will often be as effective with their first attack with it as a martial will be with a second attack (the difference between legendary and Expert is only +4 and there is no excuse not to have either Dex or Str within -1 or 2 of a martial's maximized attribute), and sometimes the caster will need two actions to do things other than attack, which can feel limiting if you only have 2 action cantrip attacks.
There are a lot of interesting and fun ways to explore the three action economy. With creativity, casters can make martials jealous of how often it seems like the caster has more effective and interesting things to do each round than try to move around to keep up with the enemy and take a retaliatory beating for doing so. Trust me, no martial character is having fun lying on the ground making death saves, which is not an unusual place for a powerhouse melee martial to be in multiple encounters a session (generally, the big damage dealer of the party becomes the most frequent gang up target, another reason to think twice about focusing exclusively on damage dealing unless the rest of the party is happy figuring out how to protect/keep up with you if range and movement are the key to keeping you on your feet).
PS: Saying that you would like to see more spells that interact in interesting ways with the three action economy is a perfectly fine and reasonable request to make, as well as offering suggestions for how that might happen. Just keep in mind that 1 action spells are not going to be as powerful as 2 or three action spells and that the goal should not be creating ultimate power combinations, but interesting diversity in action options.
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Isn't the ability to have 2-action abilities that are more powerful as a result of being 2-action an interesting and good part of the system? Some people seem to be arguing that the good part of the 3-action system is being able to do three things on your turn which confuses me greatly.
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...lots of good arguments...
While what you stated is certainly not wrong who is telling this (mostly metagaming) advice to new players / beginners? Who is telling them to always be mindful of meaningful 3rd actions? Who is telling them that debuffs are good and need to be available to your group? Who? Certainly not the CRB.
When our GM and group started from scratch we all created the characters we imagined with whatever feat, equipment or spell that sounded fancy or useful without giving much concern to specifics apart from the traditional roles like tank or main healer. So no secondary ranged weapon on either caster (partly due to bulk), no 1-action focus spells, not a great selection of 3rd actions either, no combat tricks on either melee (either via weapon that allows combat manoeuvres nor free hands for athletics), just a couple of weak debuff abilities / spells shared within our group and certainly even many more metagaming deficiencies if I would start looking closely.
As a result both casters already described their game experience as "missile platform", or rather spell slinging platform, which I find telling. Which is not to say that casters can't be efficient and fun while using the 3-action system, however my low level gameplay experience is that the 3-action system feels more natural for our martials.
In my games, everyone has just been playing their character and doing stuff. I haven't heard anyone say that the other characters get to do more things than them, or this or that.
The sorcerer casts a 2 action spell and moves, or casts guidance (I let them use it once per combat on each person, instead of once per hour or day or whatever the spell says).
I haven't heard any dissatisfaction voiced. Obviously, mileage varies.
I'm super unclear on how a ranged weapon attack is a viable option for a caster. My druid would have to take off his shield, stow/drop his staff, draw a bow, and then Strike just to even make that happen (that's 3 actions at least!). Even if I chose to just keep the bow in hand by default, its a +9 to hit Strike (Level 4, +3 Dex) that does 1d8 damage. That's crazy low!. CR 4 creatures have 20-23 AC, meaning you have a ~40% to hit. That averages to like 1 or 2 damage. At that point you might as well just run away. By comparison, the Barb's second attack is +6 (+11-5) for...
First off, the Barb's basically hit the perfect point for them to compare to against you - they have a +1 striking greatsword at level 4, basically the earliest possible they can get it. If you're looking to focus on damage over all, I'd consider either looking at a +1 bow or Demoralize, depending on what your focus is.
Second, regarding resources you have every fight - Tempest Surge every fight, especially targeting enemies that are going to get hit with other attacks. If they fail the save, and you're using a +1 shortbow, you have an effective +12 to hit with it. Alternately, Demoralize will increase their failure chances, which is good for landing that clumsy 2.
Electric Arc is also good if you can hit two enemies with it.
I'll let someone else list off specific primal spells you might want to look at, but in terms of Storm Druid focus that's pretty solid as a start.
I'm super unclear on how a ranged weapon attack is a viable option for a caster. My druid would have to take off his shield, stow/drop his staff, draw a bow, and then Strike just to even make that happen (that's 3 actions at least!). Even if I chose to just keep the bow in hand by default, its a +9 to hit Strike (Level 4, +3 Dex) that does 1d8 damage. That's crazy low!. CR 4 creatures have 20-23 AC, meaning you have a ~40% to hit. That averages to like 1 or 2 damage. At that point you might as well just run away. By comparison, the Barb's second attack is +6 (+11-5) for 2d12+6 (while raging). Against the same AC, that's about a ~30% hit chance, averaging to 6-7 ish damage.To your second point, it certainly feels the other way around. As a caster I feel more like a cheerleader than a main member of the party (in combat). Our Bard feels similarly, but that's what he signed up for, he wanted to be a magic support character. The Barbarian is more than happy to sit there and soak up attacks, since he can deal it back and then some. He spends very little time doing death saves on the ground (I only recall two combats where he actually went down). Again, this is even more true because my actions are better spent just keeping him alive to end combat quickly. His action economy is very efficient, with Sudden Charge and No Escape letting him stay in combat and roll as many d20s as possible. And it doesn't cost anything, he's at 100% for every single fight. How can a magic damage dealer compete?
Is your staff magical? What does it do? I think the blaster has two options about carrying stuff in their hands. As the lightning blaster druid, Electric Arc is good enough to make a ranged weapon useless for your build. getting to zap 2 enemies with two actions is action efficient. You can stick and move or use your reach feat (you mentioned that earlier) to keep a safe distance. I still recommend considering picking up fleet step to really take advantage of what your character is going to be doing with lightning bolt when you hit 5th level.
My advice about ranged weapons is more for bards, clerics or wizards than it is for druids, and it does mean keeping your weapon up with at least striking runes as you are able.
The real problem your character is having is that the barbarian wants you sticking close to them to do all their healing for them, which is limiting where you can move to on the battlefield. Blaster casters are much better than melee strikers when they can deny all of their enemies' attack actions with mobility. BUT your Barbarian buddy just wants to sit still and attack. They do more damage per attack than you, so it is easy for them to sway the argument that your character is the weak one, even though, without your support, they will be lying on the battlefield bleeding out more often than not. Blasting does not pair well with a glass cannon melee character who needs buffing support and healing support, usually from two separate characters. The barbarian is only outshining you because they have 2 caster support, but clearly didn't get your sign off on needing to be that kind of caster.
It feels like we're playing two different games, do the blasters in your group feel useful? Do they not feel that their damage spells are a waste compared to just buffing/healing an ally or debuffing the enemy? Because that's the point I'm trying to make, a blaster who tries to blast is just holding the party back compared to buffing/healing/debuffing. Maybe I'm just spoiled by how fun EB blasting 5e Warlock was.
I play a cleric in an age of ashes campaign. I have to do everything as well (healing, battlefield control, and damage). My cleric is a little off the cusp, but can nova blast when necessary, so I keep close to the action of the battlefield in the hopes that an enemy will move off to attack me, and have dropped 2 higher level foes when they have done so with a concentrated round of harm spells. I probably should follow my own advice and cary a ranged weapon instead of a spiked chain, but I have been having too much fun making trip attacks to set up my barbarian for a massive damage round, and often use guidance as well. I take cover and hide a lot as well as creating darkness and relying on concealment for defense.
We have a Bard who does almost entirely buffing and illusions (battlefield control). My point was that my spell slots are ALSO better spent on buffing since me spending resources on damage is never better than just giving the Barbarian more buffs. Electric Arc was a blast (hah) at level 1. I felt strong and useful, but its dropped off significantly. 2d4+4 feels pitiful!
For full disclosure our level 4 party comp is:
Spirit Instinct Barbarian
Monk
Polymath/Maestro Bard
Storm Druid (me)There isn't much party discussion to be had at this point, everyone's roles are basically set. It doesn't make sense for the Barbarian to waste actions chugging a potion just so I can get a middling amount of damage in. It's almost always more efficient for him to just keep swinging and for me to heal and buff. Which again is the crux of my argument.
I'm also unclear about what makes Sorcerers that much better? They get +1-+10 damage to their spell damage which doesnt seem very good. If its just that then that hardly makes the damage feel any better. Especially since those bonuses force you in to the Divine or Primal lists anyways. Being a Sorcerer and having an extra +1 or +2 damage at my level doesn't feel like a solution.
Sorcerers have Dangerous Sorcery and sometimes Blood Magic to help them blast.
That's what I'm saying: your party chose your role. It doesn't make blasters bad, it make healers more important than blasters in your party, for your specific setup. Now, if you accept it, then heal your Barbarian. If you don't, just tell him to buy potions. Noone can force you into a gameplay you haven't chosen.
Also, you have a Bard, so Electric Arc should deal 2d4+5 damage.
And Electric Arc deals the same average damage on 2 targets than a Greatsword Spirit Barbarian attacking twice.
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Going shortbow or going staff/shield are both viable options for a caster IMO. Shortbow is better if staying at a range is viable (which, as a blaster, you probably want to do to leverage the advantages you get. But it sounds like your party prefers having you closer). Staff is cool early for Shillelagh and later for magic staffs, and shield is lovely for casters staying closer to the action.
Both are valid choices, but complement different types of strategies.
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...and have dropped 2 higher level foes when they have done so with a concentrated round of harm spells.
The difference in between healing font and harming font in regards to action economy is huge. No-attack-roll, single-action almost-assured-damage spell, count me in! Spam it 3 times in a single round and drop it like its hot, especially while using certain class feats.
Harming font clerics mostly use the 1-action variant, while healing font cleris almost exclusively want to use the 2-action variant, which as already stated is a huge dealbreaker as far as action economy is involved. Both can use the 3-action variant with proper feats, positioning and enemies.
@SuperBidi Did they or did the system? I feel like the system has forced it more than my party members. The Barbarian does the most damage, why should I try and force my damage in to the strategy when it's so much worse? I'm fine with ranged doing less damage than melee, due to the natural safety you get, but the difference feels VAST compared to other systems I've played. Vast enough to not even bother trying to do damage and just focusing on improving the people who can (or ranting about it on the internet). I purposefully didn't include party wide buffs like the Bard's because they affect everyone equally.
What is your Barbarian setup? 2-handed weapon?
Also, I think you greatly undervalues Electric Arc. I'm able to keep my damage at our Greataxe Fury Barbarian's level with it. And as I play PbP, I can count the damage. Because the main thing with Electric Arc is that you deal tons of very small instances of damage, so you never see "big numbers". But at the end of the day, you deal the same amount of damage than the Barbarian.
The Barbarian is a uniquely situated martial character for this counter example though. They do not get many class boosts to accuracy so they are pretty desperate for a caster to buff them. The Bard + Barb combo is a strong one for this, but even with magical buffing support, your barbarian probably still struggles to hit more than once against boss type monsters. This pushes the Barbarian to want to do as much damage as possible, which usually means a two handed weapon and a lower AC than other Martials. As a result, the class takes a lot of damage. Sure it has extra HP to help soak it up, but all that really means is that your party ends up needing even more healing support.
Barbarians are very powerful martials that don't work very well by themselves. They are the glassiest of glass cannons.
In PF2, being good at blasting means dedicating more of your character build to it than just a couple of spells per level out of your spell list.
From what you have described, your character is already doing a lot more than just blasting. You have an animal companion and have the weight of having to heal a character that requires lots of in combat healing to stay on their feet.
How often does the barbarian or the bard delay their turn to make sure that they can intimidate an enemy that you will then be able to direct a blast at? If they are not already doing that, it is an easy way to get them to help support you getting to do what you signed up for when you created your character. With that debuff and the bards inspire courage, your spell attack spells are functionally a proficiency level higher. Since you have that staff of fire, don't forget you can flank with produce flame and lower the enemy AC by an additional 2. Produce flame at an effective +4 is worth considering over lightning arc at +1, even against lower level enemies. A critical hit with produce flame can cause an enemy to lose several actions trying to put themselves out.
Since you stick up close, do you find enemies attacking you often? If they do, you are actually doing something very important for the party and that is drawing fire away from the barbarian. Its not sexy, but it can easily be the difference between victory and defeat. If they are not, consider getting rid of the shield to become a more attractive target. Eventually you will get access to that storm druid feat that allows you to punish foes that attack you. Be sure to take feats that give you extra HP though and don't neglect your Con score.
@Ubertron_X
I agree that the magic system of PF2 is a lot more nuanced than 5e and possibly even PF1. It would be good for paizo or possibly this community to help make spell casting guides and strategies more accessible to newer players.
...and have dropped 2 higher level foes when they have done so with a concentrated round of harm spells.Harming font clerics mostly use the 1-action variant, while healing font cleris almost exclusively want to use the 2-action variant, which as already stated is a huge dealbreaker as far as action economy is involved. Both can use the 3-action variant with proper feats, positioning and enemies.
Yeah, I really like the harm font, and I am not even chasing the feats to maximize it. They key for my character (and I think a lot more characters generally) is patience. Moving forward is a huge waste of actions unless it is incredibly disruptive to the enemy's combat style. If they look like they want to be in melee, I try to talk my entire party into holding back and doing all the defensive actions, buffing and debuffing that we can from a distance, and force the enemy to waste the actions moving. Moving forward to throw down the harm chain is a huge mistake. But casting a two action heal on the barbarian, then waiting for the enemy to move to attack you is how you really bait and destroy. Heal font Clerics can have as many harm spells memorized as heal spells by level 2 or 3. Harm font Clerics do the same thing with heal spells. Don't sleep on having 3 harm spells in your pocket, even if all three of them can't be your highest level. Sometimes you don't need that max damage one to finish some off with your third action.
This pushes the Barbarian to want to do as much damage as possible, which usually means a two handed weapon and a lower AC than other Martials.
I have the opposite point of view. As Barbarian is the class adding the most extra damage, you are far less reliant on weapon dice. A shield works wonder on a Barbarian as it doesn't affect much your damage output.
The greatsword barbarian is a trope. But also a liability. A character who does tons of damage with low defense will either be put down right away or consume lots of resources to stay up. If someone wants to play a healbot then it's fine. Otherwise, drop the greatsword and grab a shield and a longsword. Don't force your fellow party members into roles they don't wanna play.
It feels like your Barb player is being kind of selfish. Saying you have to change your play to benefit him, instead of modifying his play to benefit the party. If you are constantly dropping heals in him you're not doing it to anyone else.
I wasn't complaining about the barbarian, simply saying that comparing a druid's damage output to a barbarian's damage output was a rough comparison because it is like the maximum damage class, but has serious limitations: is limited to melee range, requires a lot of healing to keep upright, and buffing if they are going to hit more than once a round reliably.
The barbarian in Relic123's party is thriving because the rest of the party works to make it happen. It is not just this character's success, but the success of a party focused around making sure that one character can keep swinging with as high an attack bonus as possible.
I agree that the storm druid is not well feat supported at levels 2 and 4. I hope that changes in the near future. In all honesty, starting a specific thread about that might be a great way to see it happen soon then later. Consider naming it something like "Please give storm druids more support" and focus on what could actually help the storm druid work as a blaster more effectively.
However, by level 3 you really need to be using obscuring mist as much as you are able to protect yourself. A huge part of the storm druid's advantage is the ability to see through weather created concealment. It can be limiting to your party depending upon where you place it, but that is another reason why fleet feet is a good spell for a storm druid blaster. Enemies will want to come to you when you are dropping lightning bolts from the middle of a fog bank but concealment is better than a shield for defending yourself.
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However, by level 3 you really need to be using obscuring mist as much as you are able to protect yourself. A huge part of the storm druid's advantage is the ability to see through weather created concealment.
It is EXTREMELY unclear to me that mist created by a spell counts as "caused by weather". Has there been some clarification that says that storm druids can see through obscuring mist?
It is EXTREMELY unclear to me that mist created by a spell counts as "caused by weather". Has there been some clarification that says that storm druids can see through obscuring mist?
However, by level 3 you really need to be using obscuring mist as much as you are able to protect yourself. A huge part of the storm druid's advantage is the ability to see through weather created concealment.
the ability explicitly includes fog.
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the ability explicitly includes fog.It is EXTREMELY unclear to me that mist created by a spell counts as "caused by weather". Has there been some clarification that says that storm druids can see through obscuring mist?
However, by level 3 you really need to be using obscuring mist as much as you are able to protect yourself. A huge part of the storm druid's advantage is the ability to see through weather created concealment.
Sure. It also explicitly says "caused by weather". Obscuring mist isn't weather
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I guess talk to your GM before choosing it as a spell, but it seems like if your GM is going to rule out magically induced weather phenomena, then Storm Born is the singly worst class feat in the book.
Edit: Especially when weighed against all the other innate class feats of the other orders which give out familiars, Animal companions , and the ability to wild shape.
Weather is a completely undefined phenomena in the core rule book though so it is something you should talk through with your GM.
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then Storm Born is the singly worst class feat in the book.
Oh, I'd claim there are worse :-) :-(.
My play is mostly PFS so "asking the GM" isn't much of an option. I've stayed away from a storm druid partly for this reason.
It just occurred to me that as far as I know I have NEVER seen a Storm Druid in PFS (in over 20 games). I've certainly never seen one throwing Obscuring Mist.
The phrase weather (such as fog) tells us that fog is a type of weather. That, definitionally, suggests obscuring mist is weather (unless you argue that obscuring mist isn't fog, I guess, although that would be kind of weird since the spells that create fog function like obscuring mist).
If the feat specified natural weather, it'd be clear magic doesn't work like that, but since it doesn't I don't see why spells that generate weather (such as fog) wouldn't also work with the feat.
Speaking of weather. It seems really weird to me that you can't make it rain in Autumn with the Control Weather ritual. I feel like Autumn rains are really common in a lot of the world and it's weird that you can have Sleet but not actual rain.
@SuperBidi yup Barb primarily runs a great sword, but has switched to shield and longsword before as well as a reach polearm at one point. I'll have to keep track of my damage output over the next few sessions, I feel like one Barbarian crit alone puts his damage beyond unreachable for me.
I find our Barbarian to be a phenomenal tank. Hes easily the best suited for the job on our team. Good AC (only beaten by the monk), amazing HP, plus Temp HP from raging.
That's exactly what I meant: Barbarian are doing extremely high spike damage, which is very visible, and make you think he's an absolute damage dealer. But I highly doubt your Barbarbian often crits, and I'm pretty sure most of the time he overkills his target.
Barbarians have low AC, by the way, due to rage. Their survivability is high thanks to hit points, but still amongst the lower end of the martial classes.
If you have issues blasting with a Storm Druid, it's perfectly valid. And I agree with Unicore, it's a completely different question that can be asked on a separate topic.
This pushes the Barbarian to want to do as much damage as possible, which usually means a two handed weapon and a lower AC than other Martials.I have the opposite point of view. As Barbarian is the class adding the most extra damage, you are far less reliant on weapon dice. A shield works wonder on a Barbarian as it doesn't affect much your damage output.
The greatsword barbarian is a trope. But also a liability. A character who does tons of damage with low defense will either be put down right away or consume lots of resources to stay up. If someone wants to play a healbot then it's fine. Otherwise, drop the greatsword and grab a shield and a longsword. Don't force your fellow party members into roles they don't wanna play.
Or better the barbarian should have a bastard sword and a shield. Then he can play a bit defensive as required, or even bash and slash, but also if needed he can drop the shield and go full d12 offense.
Smart tactical play from a barbarian - its possible.
If you want damage you kinda want Flaming Sphere, it's pretty good action economy wise and is cheap on the spell slots as well.
Flaming Sphere first turn
Tempest Surge + Sustain
Spell / cantrip + Sustain
Move + Kick someone + Sustain
Sustained spells and ongoing damage field effects are the best way to do damage with Spellcasters in my opinion, they are really cheap on the spellslots and will last the whole fight.
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I don't see why Storm Born wouldn't work against magical weather. I don't think I've seen anyone argue that Charhide Goblins only get resistance to mundane fire.