I get why a robot or clockwork might be vulnerable (you could break some important gears or computer chip), but how can a stone golem, which is just a homogenous humanoid shaped mass of stone be hit by a critical? It's like with that rock monster on Galaxy Quest "It's a rock, it doesn't have any vulnerable spots!"
It is more about having a discernable body which means some points are more important than others. A critical hit could be narrated as a blow to the knee of the golem, breaking the leg away so the golem can't stand anymore. Made of rock or not, it has vulnerabilities because it isn't just a rock.
Or it can just be a particularly strong blow which would damage even a uniform spheric rock more than usual because the attacker managed to swing excellently.
A stone golem might have activating glyphs carved on it which will depower the golem if all are destroyed, it might be a blow which turns the momentum of the golem against it, it might just be a perfectly set-up swing. Use your imagination and enjoy your critical hits.
You're missing the bigger picture. Why should PCs be allowed to roll attacks 10 over the construct's AC? /s
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Except that's folklore in pathfinder its powered by an inserted elemental.
As I said if your aiming for a joint it's not really a critical hit, critical hits are arteries, eyes, heart blows that are debilitating to a living creature. Shoot an arrow into someone's knee and it hurts, it hinders movement but the same arrow into a golems knee doesn't hurt and just shatters as the golem moves its leg. There's not going to be any real benefit from that hit. Same with plunging a rapier into someones chest. On most humanoid creatures you can hit a heart, lungs, spine all things that can do damage far in excess of what you'd expect from a narrow bladed sword. On the golem none of those are there to hurt. A normal rapier as said criticals on 18-20 if you have improved critical or a keen variant then that doubles to 15-20 a 1 in 4 chance effectively of getting a critical hit and a big part of golems not being immune to critical hits means that suddenly its a LOT more vulnerable to damage than they used to be.
From a roleplay perspective high crit ranges tend to be on lighter, finesse weapons whereas high crit values are on more damaging heavier ones. Which means the biggest benefit from this change will be to the weapons that crit more often and those weapons are the ones you don't think would really hurt a golem e.g. jabbing it with a rapier as opposed to slaming a dire mace into it.
I get why a robot or clockwork might be vulnerable (you could break some important gears or computer chip), but how can a stone golem, which is just a homogenous humanoid shaped mass of stone be hit by a critical? It's like with that rock monster on Galaxy Quest "It's a rock, it doesn't have any vulnerable spots!"A Stone Golem is not a huge humanoid shaped mass of stone. That's an Earth Elemental. They are immune to critical hits.
This is the answer, in a nutshell.
A construct is a construct. They are constructed. Built. Manufactured. Assembled. They are not uniform featureless blobs. That which is assembled can be disassembled, though Apple products are increasingly like electronics elementals rather than iThing constructs.
...but the same arrow into a golems knee doesn't hurt and just shatters as the golem moves its leg.
The wooden shaft probably shattered when it hit; it's the metal point jammed into the knee joint that stops the golem moving properly that matters. This is abstracted as hp because almost all PF combat is abstracted as hp, but the same rule allows precision damage and the rider effects you get from Critical feats and Sneak Attack talents.
It's the same with undead. A skeleton has moving parts, as does a zombie or wight. Incorporeal undead presumably still have something important where it used to be, or (as in a Mohrg) something added, but you need the right (Ghost Touch) weapon to hit it.
I get why a robot or clockwork might be vulnerable (you could break some important gears or computer chip), but how can a stone golem, which is just a homogenous humanoid shaped mass of stone be hit by a critical? It's like with that rock monster on Galaxy Quest "It's a rock, it doesn't have any vulnerable spots!"A Stone Golem is not a huge humanoid shaped mass of stone. That's an Earth Elemental. They are immune to critical hits.This is the answer, in a nutshell.
A construct is a construct. They are constructed. Built. Manufactured. Assembled. They are not uniform featureless blobs. That which is assembled can be disassembled, though Apple products are increasingly like electronics elementals rather than iThing constructs.
Yes, but consider if you make a sculpture out of a single block of stone (as most sculptures in real life are) and then make it an animated object, it's still a construct, and just as vulnerable to critical hits as any other creature despite having no internal anatomy at all.)
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Yes, but consider if you make a sculpture out of a single block of stone (as most sculptures in real life are) and then make it an animated object, it's still a construct, and just as vulnerable to critical hits as any other creature despite having no internal anatomy at all.)I get why a robot or clockwork might be vulnerable (you could break some important gears or computer chip), but how can a stone golem, which is just a homogenous humanoid shaped mass of stone be hit by a critical? It's like with that rock monster on Galaxy Quest "It's a rock, it doesn't have any vulnerable spots!"A Stone Golem is not a huge humanoid shaped mass of stone. That's an Earth Elemental. They are immune to critical hits.This is the answer, in a nutshell.
A construct is a construct. They are constructed. Built. Manufactured. Assembled. They are not uniform featureless blobs. That which is assembled can be disassembled, though Apple products are increasingly like electronics elementals rather than iThing constructs.
This, there's nothing in there to critically hit for more damage.
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From a rule balance perspective, the crit/precision damage immunity undead and constructs had to go away in the 3e -> PF conversion because they nerfed the hell out of rogues. Both are highly thematic - if an adventure location is going to have them, they’re gonna have lots of them, and the rogue will be pretty useless. Age of Worms kind of drove this point home.
From an in-game point of view, even if neither will bleed or suffer shock, both have differentiated parts that move or could be more vulnerable to the lucky shot that will undermine their ability to withstand opposition in a fight, even golems.
Of course, I also think a warhammer would be a much better choice to do that but Pathfinder doesn't model those kind of weapon vs defense interactions (and I don't want to bring them back, screw you weapon tables).
It does to some extent: e.g. Alchemical Golem: DR 10/adamantine or bludgeoning
Yes, but consider if you make a sculpture out of a single block of stone (as most sculptures in real life are) and then make it an animated object, it's still a construct, and just as vulnerable to critical hits as any other creature despite having no internal anatomy at all.)
Why wouldn't it have internal anatomy of some sort?
When it gets animated, magic now flows through the thing creating nexus points that manipulate the material. These nexus points allow it to move and flex the same way a joint and/or muscle would. Destroying the material now has a similar effect that targeting a joint or muscle would.
The creature is vulnerable to critical hits because the animating force is vulnerable. Animated dead are the same way.
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A stone golem might have activating glyphs carved on it which will depower the golem if all are destroyed, it might be a blow which turns the momentum of the golem against it, it might just be a perfectly set-up swing. Use your imagination and enjoy your critical hits.
Yeah, this makes sense. The effect could be mechanical (certainy rocky bits, like joints, or load-bearing surfaces, are more important to it's functionality than other rocky bits) or arcane (the mana/aether/whatever flows through this series of inscriptions / engravings / metal filigrees like a sort of magical conduit, and if broken / defaced, the mana-flow gets all wonky, like if a nerve, tendon or blood vessel got severed in a living being).
Or the critical hit could entirely be on the part of the critical hitter, and not the hittee, as the blow is 50% more awesome than normal, and it doesn't matter how 'vulnerable' the target is.
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Let's work this backwards.
Fact: Creatures that lack discernible anatomy are immune to sneak attacks and critical hits.
Fact: Constructs are not immune to sneak attack and critical hits.
Conclusion: Constructs do not lack discernible anatomy.
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Or let's maybe look at this from the perspective of Pathfinder being a game (I know, a radical idea) and not just funny books with silly pictures for big bubbly beardy kids.
Fact: Immunity to crits means immunity to sneak attack 'cuz they're kind of the same thing
Fact: Rogue is the weakest class in PF1
Therefore: Don't shaft the poor Rogue with a spiked dildo by limiting the only combat ability that makes them remotely useful
I think it grows out of the idea that Hit Points are an abstraction of the creature's ability to function effectively, and not nessacerily a reflection of Health.
You Smash something's leg, it's ability to function effectively is reduced. The lucky blow you just struck was able to seriously weaken it's ability to keep fighting you. Smash the right joint on a Golem and it stumbles, and maybe the foot broke off.
By Comparison the Earth Elemental is a Spirt inhabiting mound of dirt. Did smashing the leg impair it's ability to keep fighting. Not so much, it just moves some dirt around and props itself back up or it decided to abandon the idea of legs and is now a Dirt wave with tentacles. Maybe it's a little smaller now but it's still just as good at smashing you as it was five seconds ago.
"now"
"now"
In D&D3 if something could be Critically hit it seemed like it was a matter of internal organ damage. So anything without internal organs or where those organs weren't important, was immune to Crits.
Pathfinder made it more about, how important is the physical body to the creature being functional.
In D&D3 if something could be Critically hit it seemed like it was a matter of internal organ damage. So anything without internal organs or where those organs weren't important, was immune to Crits.
Pathfinder made it more about, how important is the physical body to the creature being functional.
Yes, I pretty much agree with the assessment. From a game design perspective, going with that route sounds fine, as does the Paizo approach of looking at it as critical damage not just to organs but potentially to structure. Which one you go to is a matter of art and experience. 3e chose the one way (internal organs) which meshed well with earlier edition concepts of backstab. But then, I believe, years of experience in seeing how that played out at the table convinced Paizo to go the other way. And I think, in the end, Paizo's decision was the better one.
Did you ever pay the Lord of the Rings MMO video game.
Your character has a Hit Point bar like every other game out there and if it gets to 0 you are defeated.
But sometimes, depending on how you got hurt, you would also get Injury De-buffs.
Fall off a ledge and get an Injured leg debuff caused you to limp and such.
Always wanted to try something like that for Pathfinder. Something along the lines of - On a Critical Hit you don't take extra damage but you get an Injury penalty to some action.
"now"In D&D3 if something could be Critically hit it seemed like it was a matter of internal organ damage. So anything without internal organs or where those organs weren't important, was immune to Crits.
Pathfinder made it more about, how important is the physical body to the creature being functional.
I know that. I just found it curious that the OP regarded a change that was made 10 years ago as "now".
Did you ever pay the Lord of the Rings MMO video game.
Your character has a Hit Point bar like every other game out there and if it gets to 0 you are defeated.But sometimes, depending on how you got hurt, you would also get Injury De-buffs.
Fall off a ledge and get an Injured leg debuff caused you to limp and such.Always wanted to try something like that for Pathfinder. Something along the lines of - On a Critical Hit you don't take extra damage but you get an Injury penalty to some action.
It should be a player only option. It is absolutely not worth the effort on the bad guys with the possible exception of major arc villains.
It works best if you tell the player that a crit has been confirmed and ask if they want the extra damage or the effect. Most of the time they will choose damage, unless they are low on hitpoints.
The big drawback is that now you have to have rules for all of these infirmities. And the rules for how to recover from them both mundanely and magically. Some rules I have toyed with:
Roll the extra damage from the crit
Divide the number by 10 (round up) to determine level of severity
Come up with a chart of at least 10 outcomes for each level of severity. (some overlap is fine.)
Magical recovery requires a spell of a level at least equal to the level of severity. This is a separate spell after all hitpoints have been recovered and each injury requires its own spell.
So rogues aren't screwed when fighting them, basically.
Just about anything will have weak spots. Golems will have joints, gaps in armor plates, its legs are likely supporting a stupid amount of weight due to both the square-cube law and the fact that their usually made of dense materials like stone and metal mean their legs, especially ankles, could suffer load-bearing fatigue, etc etc.