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You certainly like to go onto advice threads and say "I suggest playing with my house rules instead". When you haven't even played the game yet... I don't know. It leaves an odd taste in the mouth.Well, if people are complaining about something I have already found a personal solution for as well, why not offer it as a place to look? Should I just say "Oh well, sucks to be you, wait until the Devs issue an errata, don't try to fix it yourself!", or shake my head and think "maybe they will find a fix on their own, I'm keeping my own fix to myself!"
On actual issues that’s fine.
Chiming in on threads with people asking how the actual rulels/mechanics work and saying they should use your house rules instead is less so.
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Yes, they have. I created several threads of my house rules, and the earlier ones were for people to go out and test the rules I suggested, and I then made changes based on their feedback. That is how all my house rules work. If a lot of people come back and say "we tested this rule change and found it doesn't work, or it messes up this other feature", I make changes, or just remove my suggestion. My current rule change doc is on version 1.55, and every increase in # was more or different changes. That's why I started keep track of the changes, which was another suggestion from playtesters ("put a change log in the back")
Wait. You will approach a house rule you created with this amount of care and rigor, but you won’t test the rule as written in play to make sure that your house rule was actually necessary to begin with?
That implies that you automatically assume the written version to be flawed and your “40 years experience” serves as all the proof you need. In my 24 years experience I’ve seen many rules that read awkwardly or feel broken in text but play well. You don’t seem to account for that possibility.
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While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.
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While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.
huzzah
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I don't think experience playing games correlates to skill at designing them.
I know just enough about game design to know that in fact players are in general terrible designers. Game design is hard, and it's one of those fields like marketing that everyone thinks they can do.
I have two decades of experience playing games and I'm utter shite at designing them. And I certainly wouldn't try to design for a game I've never played in any serious manner! So much about how a game works is only obvious in play. Trying to design from first principles without actual playtesting is how you end up with systems like the original implementation of Resonance - a clever, well-designed system that 90% of your playerbase hates because it's at odds with the fundamentals of how they view their enjoyment of the game.
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While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.
*devours juicy statistic*
And I’m a huge fan of the Eberron team as well
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While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.
Yay! How many hours did he actually spend playing all those games to make this informed decision?
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While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.Yay! How many hours did he actually spend playing all those games to make this informed decision?
Enough for them to write a review, which is completely different than suggesting complete mechanical reworks of those three systems.
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A beloved non-standard setting book with gorgeous art from a major company and name (Hasbro/DnD) most likely sells than products from Paizo due to brand recognition. Not a surprise there, and it ain't a race.
Also dat alternate cover *drools*
That’s the cover I bought! <3
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While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.Yay! How many hours did he actually spend playing all those games to make this informed decision?
Errr.....are you suggesting critiquing a game without playing it for hours somehow negates that critique?
I find that a risky pivot, if so.
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Yay! How many hours did he actually spend playing all those games to make this informed decision?
More than you did apparently.
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While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.Yay! How many hours did he actually spend playing all those games to make this informed decision?
Reportedly, more than you.
EDIT: DAMMIT
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Enough for them to write a review, which is completely different than suggesting complete mechanical reworks of those three systems.While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.Yay! How many hours did he actually spend playing all those games to make this informed decision?
Review? You mean the short paragraph at the thread link? I wrote a longer review at Amazon! And they also had to play each of the other games an equal amount of time to make a fair decision...
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Review? You mean the short paragraph at the thread link? I wrote a longer review at Amazon! And they also had to play each of the other games an equal amount of time to make a fair decision...Enough for them to write a review, which is completely different than suggesting complete mechanical reworks of those three systems.While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.Yay! How many hours did he actually spend playing all those games to make this informed decision?
… and?
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| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.Yay! How many hours did he actually spend playing all those games to make this informed decision?Errr.....are you suggesting critiquing a game without playing it for hours somehow negates that critique?
I find that a risky pivot, if so.
Might I humbly suggest a Rysky Pinot in its stead?
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While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.Yay! How many hours did he actually spend playing all those games to make this informed decision?Errr.....are you suggesting critiquing a game without playing it for hours somehow negates that critique?
I find that a risky pivot, if so.
Not saying that at all, just pointing out the hypocrisy of touting an award as "game of the year" with no evidence or knowledge that he's played and fairly evaluated all the possible games that were contenders. I admitted my inability to convince a group of long-time gamers (all in their 40-50's and fans of Pathfinder 1e, and most of whom actually bought the 2e books just to check them out) to actually play 2e, otherwise you would not have known. I'm hoping to change that in 2020. I'm not opposed to 2e on it's merits or anything, nor am I yelling about PC content. I'm actually trying to promote it, but in my city it's going over like a lead balloon. Online is the only place I see other people excited about and interested in 2e as well.
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Not saying that at all, just pointing out the hypocrisy of touting an award as "game of the year" with no evidence or knowledge that he's played and fairly evaluated all the possible games that were contenders. I admitted my inability to convince a group of long-time gamers (all in their 40-50's and fans of Pathfinder 1e, and most of whom actually bought the 2e books just to check them out) to actually play 2e, otherwise you would not have known. I'm hoping to change that in 2020. I'm not opposed to 2e on it's merits or anything, nor am I yelling about PC content. I'm actually trying to promote it, but in my city it's going over like a lead balloon. Online is the only place I see other people excited about and interested in 2e as well.While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.Yay! How many hours did he actually spend playing all those games to make this informed decision?Errr.....are you suggesting critiquing a game without playing it for hours somehow negates that critique?
I find that a risky pivot, if so.
But you said he should play all the games equally in order to be able to pass fair judgement.....while simultaneously holding that you don’t need to actually play PF2 to improve it with houserules? You don’t see a disconnect there?
And they also had to play each of the other games an equal amount of time to make a fair decision...
If you’re able to spot flaws without playing a game surely you should grant the right to other critics to rely on their years of gaming too, no?
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The PF2 CRB (released in Aug.) is up to 274 now, with a cumulative rating of 4.4
Eberron: Rising from the Last War (released in Nov.) is at 370, with a rating of 4.7
Anecdotally, I bought one of each, with Rising being my first (and only) 5e purchase. Bought it specifically to use with PF2, given we're having trouble with PF2 "feeling" right in Golarion but "feeling" quite appropriate in Eberron.
Does anyone know why Paizo didn't come out with a intro box set? That seems like a marketing no-brainier to me.
Time and manpower, I'm sure.
Does anyone know why Paizo didn't come out with a intro box set? That seems like a marketing no-brainier to me.Time and manpower, I'm sure.
That was the reason they gave for the “delayed” release of PF1’s beginner box and of Starfinder’s.
Good chance the same is true here, I’d think.|
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And they also had to play each of the other games an equal amount of time to make a fair decision...If you’re able to spot flaws without playing a game surely you should grant the right to other critics to rely on their years of gaming too, no?
And that's fine, they don't need to have actually played any of the games to give out the award. I just want equal standards. It seemed you all felt people can't have any opinion on 2e (or other games) without proof they have actually played them, and then the grinning bag offered a link to an award for best new RPG of 2019 without any such evidence of playing all the games (and congrats to Paizo no matter how it was won).
For that matter, you apparently didn't know and couldn't tell that I had not actually played the game from reading my house rules. That's fine, I don't have to keep posting the updates anymore. Just beg the devs to fix your rules problems for you from now on.
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For that matter, you apparently didn't know and couldn't tell that I had not actually played the game from reading my house rules. That's fine, I don't have to keep posting the updates anymore. Just beg the devs to fix your rules problems for you from now on.
I haven’t read your houserules. I pretty much never read anyone’s house rules. I care about community respect, not about rules (I play nearly every RPG the way I played D&D in the 70s, I’m kind of stubborn like that).
However, I’m not actually having a go at you, I was genuinely trying to be helpful. I think you are likely overestimating your abilities - a whole bunch of people who have played the game you’re houseruling are telling you there’s something off about the way you’re “fixing things”. It’s worth considering that. Especially because “I’ve played games for a long time” is unlikely to translate into “I can create good houserules”.
I don’t have any problem with you doing it, but figured it would be useful (for you) to be called on it. I’ll stop commenting if it feels like piling on. There’s lots of ways to engage with Paizo’s products - it’s not important to me that you interact with them the way I do.
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I just want equal standards.
You feel that someone reviewing a game and someone who writes alternate rules and playtests them in a public forum without ever playtesting the original rule himself should be held to equal standards? You’re aware those are not the same things, right?
That's fine, I don't have to keep posting the updates anymore. Just beg the devs to fix your rules problems for you from now on.
You’re not the benevolent game designer who came here to pick up the devs slack. You’re not the greatest of all designers in the hobby who is able to see the flaws that no one else is. You’re a forum poster, like the rest of us. The martyr complex isn’t necessary.
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For that matter, you apparently didn't know and couldn't tell that I had not actually played the game from reading my house rules. That's fine, I don't have to keep posting the updates anymore. Just beg the devs to fix your rules problems for you from now on.I haven’t read your houserules. I pretty much never read anyone’s house rules. I care about community respect, not about rules (I play nearly every RPG the way I played D&D in the 70s, I’m kind of stubborn like that).
However, I’m not actually having a go at you, I was genuinely trying to be helpful. I think you are likely overestimating your abilities - a whole bunch of people who have played the game you’re houseruling are telling you there’s something off about the way you’re “fixing things”. It’s worth considering that. Especially because “I’ve played games for a long time” is unlikely to translate into “I can create good houserules”.
I don’t have any problem with you doing it, but figured it would be useful (for you) to be called on it. I’ll stop commenting if it feels like piling on. There’s lots of ways to engage with Paizo’s products - it’s not important to me that you interact with them the way I do.
Believe me, I've tried several times to get my group to give it a try. I've not been able to play not by my own wishes, but my group being unwilling. They were also unwilling to play D&D 5e as well, and we still haven't. (I finally played lots of that at the local game store, but that has since closed because the owner passed away last year).
But I have always been willing to listen if people have a problem with my fixes or with the core rules. But that doesn't mean that if 1 person disagrees I scrap a rule, especially if many more people reply or PM me thanking me for the changes. And people are always free to use what they want and toss the rest if they prefer (though some of the changes may be dependent on each other to balance properly).
Also, there is the question of "if you disagree with some changes, what class are you playing?" It seems 2e is all about promoting martials over casters, who can't effectively use the 3-action economy the way martials can. So a reply of "I play a fighter, and I haven't noticed any problems" is very different from "I'm a Sorcerer and I'm having problems because...". or "I'm an Alchemist with these issues..." I want the classes to be properly balanced, not entirely martial-focused.
But maybe I've overstayed my welcome in this thread. I look forward to getting a chance to play 2e. I'll probably make a few changes in my house rules when I do, but they will then become more subjective rather than objective. ("This happened to me when I played...".)
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Just beg the devs to fix your rules problems for you from now on.
Yikes.
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For that matter, you apparently didn't know and couldn't tell that I had not actually played the game from reading my house rules. That's fine, I don't have to keep posting the updates anymore. Just beg the devs to fix your rules problems for you from now on.I haven’t read your houserules. I pretty much never read anyone’s house rules. I care about community respect, not about rules (I play nearly every RPG the way I played D&D in the 70s, I’m kind of stubborn like that).
However, I’m not actually having a go at you, I was genuinely trying to be helpful. I think you are likely overestimating your abilities - a whole bunch of people who have played the game you’re houseruling are telling you there’s something off about the way you’re “fixing things”. It’s worth considering that. Especially because “I’ve played games for a long time” is unlikely to translate into “I can create good houserules”.
I don’t have any problem with you doing it, but figured it would be useful (for you) to be called on it. I’ll stop commenting if it feels like piling on. There’s lots of ways to engage with Paizo’s products - it’s not important to me that you interact with them the way I do.
Believe me, I've tried several times to get my group to give it a try. I've not been able to play not by my own wishes, but my group being unwilling. They were also unwilling to play D&D 5e as well, and we still haven't. (I finally played lots of that at the local game store, but that has since closed because the owner passed away last year).
But I have always been willing to listen if people have a problem with my fixes or with the core rules. But that doesn't mean that if 1 person disagrees I scrap a rule, especially if many more people reply or PM me thanking me for the changes. And people are always free to use what they want and toss the rest if they prefer (though some of the changes may be dependent on each other to balance properly).
Also, there is the question of...
Meh. Don't leave on my account. I think of threads as conversations not prescriptive onpoint debates (especially after the first couple of hundred posts - they tend to wander).
However, you're still missing my point. I'm not saying you're wrong (I wouldn't know and don't really care). I'm saying you're discounting criticism too readily and overstating your own ability to evaluate your own work.
Those are psychological biases worth recognising.
This thread is getting pretty personal, I would rather it not be locked.
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This thread is getting pretty personal, I would rather it not be locked.
Has it honestly not run its course?
I'm as lost as a Texan would be if they were to tell apart CR7, Lewy and The Swan of Utrecht. Sorry!
I am Portuguse, i love football (soccer for the Americans in here), but i had to do a Google search for The Swan of Utrecht!
What a player he was!
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Has it honestly not run its course?
And does that mean it is worth having it devolve into personal arguments about users?
I would rather it die out rather than be a fecal flinging contest.
Has it honestly not run its course?And does that mean it is worth having it devolve into personal arguments about users?
I would rather it die out rather than be a fecal flinging contest.
100% agreed. I've been hoping this thread was done and over with. I didn't mean for what I said to sound like I was all for turning this into a mud-slinging thread.
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That's why I encourage feedback in my own thread and make changes based on it if needed. I've never said I'm perfect, I know I'm not, and I have made numerous changes based on feedback.
I think we’re outvoted, so I’ll stop responding.
I hope you didn’t take any of my posts as fecal flinging, however. They were critical, but not personal attacks. (We all have psychological biases and there is nothing vindictive in pointing out when I consider they are creeping in to your arguments).
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Honestly, where and who you are doesn't really figure into this. Baseball doesn't exist in Europe, short of a small cohort of dedicated fans who are dwarfed by the number of water polo aficionados. Baseball simply doesn't register in collective European culture. We don't know the rules, we don't know the superstars, to make things worse, we haven't even got a clue what trading cards are and what is their cultural relevance. We get basketball since it's a sport popular in the US and EU, so we know Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Since I'm up north, we know hockey and the name Wayne Gretzky rings a bell. But baseball? I'm as lost as a Texan would be if they were to tell apart CR7, Lewy and The Swan of Utrecht. Sorry!
I'm guessing this where you've assumed I'm American? While my country does have professional baseball teams, we only do it to keep them from realizing we're foreigners. The analogy was chosen because I could lead from a famous name to a less-famous name in the same industry whose fame is mostly associated with his card's value. I'm a nerd, not a sportsball-watcher, and even I know these names. I assumed a vaunted European would be worldly enough to know these things... <Grin>
Hey, pardner! You've got an awful funny way of spelling "Troy Aikman", you sure you're from around here?
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For that matter, you apparently didn't know and couldn't tell that I had not actually played the game from reading my house rules. That's fine, I don't have to keep posting the updates anymore. Just beg the devs to fix your rules problems for you from now on.
Now hold on, the reason people “didn’t know” is because of a lot of things:
- people don’t read your house rules, they’re just aware you write them
- this is the paizo second edition forums, not playing the game and being here is like joining a golf club and never hitting a ball. Following that same analogy, offering house rules for a game you’ve never played is just as ludicrous as advising people to use a different club than is standard despite never even swinging on the hole before.
- it’s heavily implied that rules are to be tested and extremely arrogant to think house rules for houses other than your own are superior despite you never even using them at a table before. It’s like recommending a dish at a restaurant you’ve never even been too
The reason I couldn’t tell is because I didn’t read them, but I had assumed you had at least tested the actual game before instituting your house rules. It’s even more mind blowing that you literally haven’t tested them at all.
One person is less effective than a development team. I have suggested house rules before just as others have, but I’ve been playing for the better part of two decades as well and I do not institute any rule until it becomes a problem at the table or after I’ve got at least 10 sessions in the new system and feel I’ve got a tweek that could be fun or something to spice up the game (can’t wait to try the free vigilante archetype super hero campaign).
Acting like pulling the wool over peoples eyes gives your rules more validity, IMO, is absurd.
I hope you get around to testing them in actual play vs a control. You might improve them and it will certainly at least give them something bonafide if they feel better than core.
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Interesting viewpoint, Isthisnametaken.
I'm afraid it doesn't much match my experience in the system. My players have been loving the 3-action economy and getting pretty creative with it; I rarely see turns that are "swing three times". Except from the Fighter, and usually that results in a very dead monster.
Age of Ashes... well, it's not Kingmaker, but then again neither was Council of Thieves. I certainly like Age of Ashes, but it definitely has "the system was in development at the same time as the campaign" issues. I'm hoping Extinction Curse will knock it out of the park.
As far as attacks of opportunity go, they are less common than I expected.. however, I like the play effect of not having them so much that I'm not going to complain about anything related to them. Battles feel much more fluid.
I use Fantasy Grounds, too, and while they are definitely still lagging behind, they have been adding new content and automation at a fairly brisk pace. Just in the time I have been using it (since I started Age of Ashes) quite a few new features have been implemented.
I can't disagree about there being many... I'm not sure I'd call them "dead" feats, but certainly suboptimal feats. However, I've learned something surprising from my players - the system really doesn't care if you "waste" your feats. I have a couple players who take almost nothing but "dead" feats and they are having fun and contributing just a much as the min-maxed rogue. So that's nice.
...Have to admit you are right about the weapon proficiency feats, though. Those are in a bad place right now. I'm hoping that will be fixed by the combat style-based archetypes that are supposed to be in the APG. My guess is that the proficiency feats will be a way of buying into an archetype that then gets you better proficiency.
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- Three action economy feels clunky. Taking an action to move 5 feet (losing the remaining 20) or re-grip a weapon with a second hand feels bad. Many times your turn is “swing and miss 3 times, end turn”. No one feels combat is very fun, which is a bummer.
There's plenty of other things you can do aside from attack 3 times that your players should try, like Recall Knowledge, Demoralize, Feint, Raise Shield, etc.
I get the frustration that combat might not be fun for your group. But also as a GM, I know that if the party isn't having fun with the combat but I knew there was other things they could try within it, I'd recommend them to try those new options a few times before writing off the whole system.
- Heavy incorporation or attack of opportunity mechanics from 3.5, but removing the capability of most mobs from being able to do it. Several feats (Ex mobility) and the step mechanic don’t fit the system.
Yes, most mobs don't have AoO, but a lot of hard-hitting creatures and bosses do. It both quickens the pace of the game, allows players to be more mobile (and encourage repositioning for flanking), and makes those tougher creatures more of a threat by giving them AoO.
- Was not released with a killer campaign. We’re playing plaguestone and it’s very weak compared to large, epic campaigns we are used to.
The Age of Ashes Adventure Path has just been completed, so if you want an epic level 1-20 campaign, go pick that up instead of the single level 1-4/5 module. You'll probably be much more satisfied with it. If not, Extinction Curse and Agents of Edgewatch are happening this year as well, also for levels 1-20.
- Many dead feats. I thought originally that characters would have more personality than 5e based on the variety of options for build. That said, every class/race gravitates to the same few feats anyway, as so many feats are bad. Any monks out there without stunning fist? Maybe this changes over time.
You cite a commonly decent feat in favor of there being dead feats? Not sure what that's about. The Monk feat list has a ton of decent options for the different stances, and since Stunning Fist has the incapacitation effect on it, it's not great against bosses. Combining a Recall Knowledge into Ki Strike with Elemental Fist might provide more consistent damage than going for stunned 1 or 3.
The rest of the stuff I understand and agree to a point with, for sure.
Also, a late "Big Yikes" about the house rule conversation up above.
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While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.
Honestly an endorsement from Bell of lost souls seems more like a kiss of death than anything else.
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While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.Honestly an endorsement from Bell of lost souls seems more like a kiss of death than anything else.
Why?
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Why?While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.Honestly an endorsement from Bell of lost souls seems more like a kiss of death than anything else.
It's a joke based on the fact that Bell of lost souls is seen in most circles as a clickbate site that basically publishes anything without even the most basic lvl of fact checking. Also a lot of there reviews for products are shall we say less than helpfull.
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It's a joke based on the fact that Bell of lost souls is seen in most circles as a clickbate site that basically publishes anything without even the most basic lvl of fact checking. Also a lot of there reviews for products are shall we say less than helpfull.Why?While we're comparing the lengths of each other's pedigree in gaming,The Bell of Lost Souls has picked their best RPG book of 2019 and PF2e CRB wins the prize, ahead of the 5e Eberron book and Things from the Flood.Honestly an endorsement from Bell of lost souls seems more like a kiss of death than anything else.
Ah, I'll check back with you once PF2 is dead after this kiss and Paizo goes back to publishing PF1, then.
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I don't think experience playing games correlates to skill at designing them.
I know just enough about game design to know that in fact players are in general terrible designers. Game design is hard, and it's one of those fields like marketing that everyone thinks they can do.
I can tell you that people who play a lot of games tend to flunk out of game design classes after basic intro stuff. Once you get into development timelines and less structured tasks, long time gamers forget how long the credits usually are and get hit by unmanageable feature bloat. There's also the whole sunk cost thing, where these kids spend so much time on their "cool new idea" that they can't accept that it isn't cool or new, it's old and terrible and there's a reason they never heard of anyone doing it. Most people are also hilariously bad at pacing and reward schemes. If someone can't see the genius in the reward pacing in candy crush or bejeweled, they aren't going to do well long term.
However, making tweaks to a finished product is entirely different, people who play a lot of games are usually decent modders. And PF2 seems very focused on helping the DM run games, so in some ways it's made to be modded and people developing functional house rules shouldn't be considered a negative. I feel like you could take a game like PF2 and modify it heavily without playing it, and have a reasonable expectation of what the end result will be. That's a very positive feature of the game.All that aside, our data is pretty much just the sarcastic bindle giving Amazon review numbers and the CEO saying it's all good. Both are imperfect, but they're more substantial than anecdotes from those of us who don't care for the game and don't know anyone who is interested in it.