Spell Sage and Scribe Scroll


Rules Questions


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If I take the Spell Sage Archetype can I then scribe scrolls from the Bard/Cleric/Druid spells lists?

Spell Sage- https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo-wizar d-archetypes/spell-sage/

Scribe Scroll-https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/scribe-scroll-ite m-creation/


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Others will likely disagree with me, but I say no. You can cast the spell "as if you had know and had prepared it", not "it counts as a spell known and prepared."


Java Man wrote:
Others will likely disagree with me, but I say no. You can cast the spell "as if you had know and had prepared it", not "it counts as a spell known and prepared."

Unfortunate. I was hoping for a straight yes or no. If you suspect others will disagree with you then it's still up in the air.

Never the less thank you your comment.


I'm inclined to say no. My reason, because the Spell Sage does not gain any ability to use said scrolls.

The ability to spontaneously cast any spell on the Bard/Cleric/Druid spell is still plenty useful, even with the limitations.


I thought about it more. If a Spell Sage could create and use scrolls of other classes spells, then they could easily bypass the limited uses per day that their Spell Study ability has. So no, I don't think crafting scrolls for other classes spells was an intended feature of Spell Study.


Unless one of those people who disagree with Java Man actually show up their existence is strictly theoretical. As you don't actually cast a spell at any round during item creation, you just expend a prepared spell or spell slot over the 8 hour period, count me on the side of 'it doesn't work'.


OmniMage wrote:

I'm inclined to say no. My reason, because the Spell Sage does not gain any ability to use said scrolls.

The ability to spontaneously cast any spell on the Bard/Cleric/Druid spell is still plenty useful, even with the limitations.

This isn't going to be an argument for "It does work" but I feel the need to correct your first line here. The Spell sage is still a wizard ergo they still gain scribe scroll at level 1. Going beyond that any character with a UMD can use the scrolls outside of their class. So I'm really not sure what you mean when you say they don't have the ability to use scrolls.

OmniMage wrote:
I thought about it more. If a Spell Sage could create and use scrolls of other classes spells, then they could easily bypass the limited uses per day that their Spell Study ability has. So no, I don't think crafting scrolls for other classes spells was an intended feature of Spell Study.

I'm going to be blunt. I'm not interested in what anyone thinks of it's intended purpose(unless you can get a dev to clear it up). Also the entire reason a wizard can make scrolls is to bypass spell slot limitations. So saying they shouldn't be able to do it because it would allow them to bypass a limitation is absurd. Considering the features you lose it would be an equal trade.


avr wrote:
Unless one of those people who disagree with Java Man actually show up their existence is strictly theoretical. As you don't actually cast a spell at any round during item creation, you just expend a prepared spell or spell slot over the 8 hour period, count me on the side of 'it doesn't work'.

Where are you getting this 8 hour time limit for item creation? I'm going to go ahead and post the rules for scribe scroll since I seem to be having trouble using the link I provided yesterday.

"You can create magic scrolls.

Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.

Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes ***2 hours*** if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price.

See magic item creation rules for more information."

-Emphasis mine.

P.S.
You don't cast a spell to make a scroll. You just make one off the spells known to your character.


Ezzard wrote:

If I take the Spell Sage Archetype can I then scribe scrolls from the Bard/Cleric/Druid spells lists?

Spell Sage- https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo-wizar d-archetypes/spell-sage/

Scribe Scroll-https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/scribe-scroll-ite m-creation/

Replying to my own OP in hopes of fixing these links. I would have loved to just edit the OP but the option to do so no longer seems to exist.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/scribe-scroll-item-creat ion/

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo-wizar d-archetypes/spell-sage/

Alright I found the problem. If you copy the link from the forums it puts a space in the following places in the link

"wizar d"

and "creat ion"

I can't for the life of me figure out why.


Java Man wrote:
Others will likely disagree with me, but I say no. You can cast the spell "as if you had know and had prepared it", not "it counts as a spell known and prepared."

Alright so here is my argument against that. I'll start by posting the actual text from the spell sage class feature "Spell Study"

"Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared."

This line does not convey that you don't know the spells from the non-wizard spell lists. It only conveys that when you cast those spells they count as wizard spells. In other words when a spell sage casts Cure light wounds it's an arcane spell not a divine spell. I'm sure there are other relevant mechanical anomalies caused by this feature but I've yet to realize them.

In conclusion you still know all the spells on the Bard/Cleric/Druid spell lists. If you did not you would not be able to cast them RAW. Spontaneous or prepared.

With that out of the way you have Scribe scroll witch reads
"You can create a scroll of any spell that you know."
This seems clear cut to me that you could craft a scroll of any spell off the Bard/Cleric/Druid/Wizard spell list. As you have access to all of them.

The Exchange

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"as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared"
I guess it would work by this sentence, BUT whom can use said scroll would be the bigger question.


Jeff Morse wrote:

"as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared"

I guess it would work by this sentence, BUT whom can use said scroll would be the bigger question.

Well the spell sage could. There are two possibilities.

-Since you cast them as wizard spells you may also have to craft your scrolls as wizard spells. This seems like a stretch but I'm uncertain given that all the spells do become wizard spells.

- Just use UMD.

Lastly you could just give them away. If you have a Bard/Cleric/Druid in the party give it to them. Keeps them from having to burn a feat for Scribe scroll.


Wait, I've seen this movie before.

Someone comes along asking a question, and gets answers which aren't the one the querent wanted. They then post their opinion, and get increasingly angry as people fail to see their wisdom and agree. Eventually some random person does agree with them and this raises them to supernatural smugness, so the argument rages another hundred posts.

Variations: offered another means of doing the same thing the querent takes it and the thread dies a bit quicker. Or, the querent just ragequits.


avr wrote:

Wait, I've seen this movie before.

Someone comes along asking a question, and gets answers which aren't the one the querent wanted. They then post their opinion, and get increasingly angry as people fail to see their wisdom and agree. Eventually some random person does agree with them and this raises them to supernatural smugness, so the argument rages another hundred posts.

Variations: offered another means of doing the same thing the querent takes it and the thread dies a bit quicker. Or, the querent just ragequits.

Just because I correct your mistakes doesn't mean "I'm angry"

And yes. I chose to wait and see if anyone else came to the same conclusion I did. When you post your opinion on an argument while asking about a topic you risk spoiling the pot. To avoid a line of "Yes men" I wait patiently to see what responses I get.

But by all means continue to flood the thread with your presumptions of what's happening. Instead of contributing any meaningful argument to the topic at hand. For example you could attempt to explain why my correction to your initial post was wrong. You'd be hard pressed to do so as it does not take 8 hours to craft a scroll. It's either 2 or 24+. Nor does it require the casting of a spell. But I will patiently await your rebuttable.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Ezzard, you haven't corrected anyone's mistakes, you are simply wrong and trying to force your argument with stubbornness and an overbearing attitude.

1) Requirements to scribe a scroll:
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."
"In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-ompletion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

Scrolls are spell completion items, so you need to know the spell or get it through an item or another spellcaster.

2) What spell sage get:
"Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared."

The spell is never a spell know or a wizard spell, it is treated as if was know only when casting it. You don't cast a spell while enchanting an item. Ergo, you can't make scrolls of these spells, can't use scrolls of these spells.


Diego Rossi wrote:

Ezzard, you haven't corrected anyone's mistakes, you are simply wrong and trying to force your argument with stubbornness and an overbearing attitude.

1) Requirements to scribe a scroll: "Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another
magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."

I have corrected exactly two people who have shared incorrect information.

In the time I have been waiting for Java Man to respond to my rebuttable I have also found a thread dating back to 2014 in which you were involved. I was actually about to share a link to it.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rk9x?Can-a-wizard-make-arcane-scrolls-of-divi ne

I am still reading to see if your stance changed but so far I have one of your posts where you say the following.

"RAW, I think, will allow him to make the items, but then using them will require a UMD check."

This is odd as it's the same stance I've taken here yet you've stated that "I'm wrong"

Interesting.

P.S. the link I shared comes up with a space that should not be there. If you use it please take time to note where the space is and correct it. For me it's normally toward the end of the link but it's shown up at the start of the address as well.


Ezzard wrote:
Jeff Morse wrote:

"as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared"

I guess it would work by this sentence, BUT whom can use said scroll would be the bigger question.

Well the spell sage could. There are two possibilities.

-Since you cast them as wizard spells you may also have to craft your scrolls as wizard spells. This seems like a stretch but I'm uncertain given that all the spells do become wizard spells.

- Just use UMD.

Lastly you could just give them away. If you have a Bard/Cleric/Druid in the party give it to them. Keeps them from having to burn a feat for Scribe scroll.

Reply edit since the hour limit has passed. I'd like to add the following to the original comment.

*- Just use UMD. <If the scroll is a bard of wizard scroll. Since I am still uncertain on what kind of scroll made by a spell sage would be (as stated above)>

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

In between that post and now, there are 5 years of discussions, FAQs and other stuff.
My comment was: "Messy, I think ...", well, now I am pretty sure that it dosn't work.

"Diego Rossi" oct. 4 2014 wrote:
PRD wrote:

Creating Scrolls

The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

PRD wrote:

Spell Sage

Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared.

Messy. I think the RAI is that he shouldn't be capable to craft the scroll. RAW? Questionable. Writing a scroll can trigger a class ability, so that it provide the needed spell? I think that by a strict reading of the RAW it work, but the wizard will have to make a UMD check to cast the scroll as the spell isn't in his spell list.

BTW, for formatting links:

(square bracket)url=https://paizo.com]Paizo Inc.[/url(close square bracket)].
Obviously you input the characters [ and ], but that will give us a link and not a readable example.

The Exchange

Further thought. How long does it take to add spell to crafting item? Wand, casting time? Scroll, though seems to imply taking the the spell in head and transfering it to paper for at least 2 hours. I am not sure it works for scrolls, but maybe other items.


Ezzard wrote:
Java Man wrote:
Others will likely disagree with me, but I say no. You can cast the spell "as if you had know and had prepared it", not "it counts as a spell known and prepared."

Alright so here is my argument against that. I'll start by posting the actual text from the spell sage class feature "Spell Study"

"Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared."

This line does not convey that you don't know the spells from the non-wizard spell lists. It only conveys that when you cast those spells they count as wizard spells. In other words when a spell sage casts Cure light wounds it's an arcane spell not a divine spell. I'm sure there are other relevant mechanical anomalies caused by this feature but I've yet to realize them.

In conclusion you still know all the spells on the Bard/Cleric/Druid spell lists. If you did not you would not be able to cast them RAW. Spontaneous or prepared.

With that out of the way you have Scribe scroll witch reads
"You can create a scroll of any spell that you know."
This seems clear cut to me that you could craft a scroll of any spell off the Bard/Cleric/Druid/Wizard spell list. As you have access to all of them.

I see nothing here that alters my perception and interpretation of the rules in this case. Conveniently we aren't at the same table so we don't have to agree.

Oh, as an aside, asking a question and then arguing with folks kind enough to take a moment and share information kinda annoys me, so you'll likely not see me here after this.


Ezzard wrote:
OmniMage wrote:

I'm inclined to say no. My reason, because the Spell Sage does not gain any ability to use said scrolls.

The ability to spontaneously cast any spell on the Bard/Cleric/Druid spell is still plenty useful, even with the limitations.

This isn't going to be an argument for "It does work" but I feel the need to correct your first line here. The Spell sage is still a wizard ergo they still gain scribe scroll at level 1. Going beyond that any character with a UMD can use the scrolls outside of their class. So I'm really not sure what you mean when you say they don't have the ability to use scrolls.

Yes, they get scribe scroll at level 1. However, this does not change the kind of scrolls they can use. A scroll must be arcane and it must be a spell on their spell list. If one of these conditions are not meet, then they can't use the scroll. A scroll made by a Druid would be divine and the spell would likely not be on the Wizard's spell list, so a Spell Sage wouldn't be able to use it.

Scribe scroll does not bestow the ability to use magic items. Some Wizard archetypes don't get scribe scroll at first level. Those Wizards can still use scrolls. Bards, Clerics, and Druids can use scrolls without Scribe Scroll. They just can't make them without it.

Use Magic Device is an exception to a lot of things. You don't get points for mentioning this. You use UMD when you can't use a certain magic item under normal circumstances. Also, UMD doesn't always work. You can't take 10 with it. Every attempted use is a gamble.

Ezzard wrote:
OmniMage wrote:
I thought about it more. If a Spell Sage could create and use scrolls of other classes spells, then they could easily bypass the limited uses per day that their Spell Study ability has. So no, I don't think crafting scrolls for other classes spells was an intended feature of Spell Study.
I'm going to be blunt. I'm not interested in what anyone thinks of it's intended purpose(unless you can get a dev to clear it up). Also the entire reason a wizard can make scrolls is to bypass spell slot limitations. So saying they shouldn't be able to do it because it would allow them to bypass a limitation is absurd. Considering the features you lose it would be an equal trade.

Well, if you don't care what I think, then I'll stop trying to help.


Magic Item Creation wrote:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
Quote:
Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared.

Despite being cast as if prepared, it is not a prepared spell. Therefore you cannot use it to create a scroll.


The difference between 8 and 2 hours does not substantially change my argument above. The spell is not cast in any defined part of that period, so an ability which allows you to cast the spell as if it were prepared or known isn't enough - you need to actually have prepared the spell or have it known.

As I said, I've seen this sort of thread before, and the combination of arrogance and an unmet need for validation has caused some rather bitter and rude arguments. I'm leaving now.


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No. You don't know the spell; you can merely cast it. You must know a spell to scribe it.

Quote:
You can create a scroll of any spell that you know.

You could, on the other hand, use spell study to meet a spell prerequisite for an item that wasn't a spell completion item, spell trigger item, or potion, such as most wondrous items.

Game balance rationales aren't necessary for this one--the rules in question are clearly defined and make sense in resolution.


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Ezzard wrote:

If I take the Spell Sage Archetype can I then scribe scrolls from the Bard/Cleric/Druid spells lists?

Spell Sage

Scribe Scroll

Fixed links. Read the "How to format your text" button below you input field for details.

Ezzard wrote:
Replying to my own OP in hopes of fixing these links. I would have loved to just edit the OP but the option to do so no longer seems to exist.

You get 1 hour to edit a post.

Ezzard wrote:

Alright I found the problem. If you copy the link from the forums it puts a space in the following places in the link

I can't for the life of me figure out why.

The space is included deliberately to break automatic linking. [A security feature of the forum.]

Ezzard wrote:

I have corrected exactly two people who have shared incorrect information.

In the time I have been waiting for Java Man to respond to my rebuttable I have also found a thread dating back to 2014 in which you were involved. I was actually about to share a link to it.

Can a wizard make arcane scrolls of divine

Fixed links.

Now to the question:
The sage is a prepared caster and so would have to memorize a spell to scribe it. Were he a true spontaneous caster, the spell would have to be one of his spells known and he would also need a slot to scribe it.
Since neither situations applies, he cannot scribe it.

Directly.

He can cast it into a storage mechanism, like a ring of spell storing, and then perhaps use that as the source of the spell for scribing.

He can also scribe it if another caster supplies the spell.

/cevah


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Just my 2 cents.

As cevah mentioned, you cannot do so directly.

What you can do is store the spell in the ring of spell storing or use a valet familiar to craft the scroll and you provide the spell.

Also, I'm not totally sure if the second method works.


If Spell Sage can be used to create scrolls it opens up a worse abuse. This would also mean that a spell sage automatically knows any wizard spell that is on any of those lists. This means the spell sage can scribe them into his spell book and memorize them at a later date. I don’t know any GM who would allow such an obvious abuse. Since scribe scroll is not available to a PC in society play that means the OP has to deal with his GM

There is also one clear reason why this will not work. Spell sage allows a wizard to spontaneously cast the spell, but it is not actually prepared. The requirements for scribing a scroll clearly state the spell must be prepared unless you are a bard on sorcerer. Since a wizard is neither a bard nor a sorcerer it does not matter if he knows the spell.


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This topic comes up every now and then. It's usually pretty contentious. A similar case is that of the skald and spell kenning. There's lots of arguing both ways, but you won't get a real answer from the devs on it. You'll have to talk with a gm and understand that they are going to decide if it works or not.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If Spell Sage can be used to create scrolls it opens up a worse abuse. This would also mean that a spell sage automatically knows any wizard spell that is on any of those lists. This means the spell sage can scribe them into his spell book and memorize them at a later date. I don’t know any GM who would allow such an obvious abuse. Since scribe scroll is not available to a PC in society play that means the OP has to deal with his GM

Weather or not this is truly an abuse is debatable. However I've read several older forums that have already argued the matter so I won't press it here.

I am curious to know why you brought up Society play, when I made no mention of caring about it's unique regulations and restrictions on RAW. It is something that occurs often when I ask questions regarding rules of the game. So I am I curious if something in my initial question gave way to make you assume that.


Java Man wrote:
Ezzard wrote:
Java Man wrote:
Others will likely disagree with me, but I say no. You can cast the spell "as if you had know and had prepared it", not "it counts as a spell known and prepared."

Alright so here is my argument against that. I'll start by posting the actual text from the spell sage class feature "Spell Study"

"Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared."

This line does not convey that you don't know the spells from the non-wizard spell lists. It only conveys that when you cast those spells they count as wizard spells. In other words when a spell sage casts Cure light wounds it's an arcane spell not a divine spell. I'm sure there are other relevant mechanical anomalies caused by this feature but I've yet to realize them.

In conclusion you still know all the spells on the Bard/Cleric/Druid spell lists. If you did not you would not be able to cast them RAW. Spontaneous or prepared.

With that out of the way you have Scribe scroll witch reads
"You can create a scroll of any spell that you know."
This seems clear cut to me that you could craft a scroll of any spell off the Bard/Cleric/Druid/Wizard spell list. As you have access to all of them.

I see nothing here that alters my perception and interpretation of the rules in this case. Conveniently we aren't at the same table so we don't have to agree.

Oh, as an aside, asking a question and then arguing with folks kind enough to take a moment and share information kinda annoys me, so you'll likely not see me here after this.

Argument is the life blood of a rules discussion forum. I will never cease to be amazed at people who are offended by that.


Cevah wrote:
Ezzard wrote:

If I take the Spell Sage Archetype can I then scribe scrolls from the Bard/Cleric/Druid spells lists?

Spell Sage

Scribe Scroll

Fixed links. Read the "How to format your text" button below you input field for details.

Ezzard wrote:
Replying to my own OP in hopes of fixing these links. I would have loved to just edit the OP but the option to do so no longer seems to exist.

You get 1 hour to edit a post.

Ezzard wrote:

Alright I found the problem. If you copy the link from the forums it puts a space in the following places in the link

I can't for the life of me figure out why.

The space is included deliberately to break automatic linking. [A security feature of the forum.]

Ezzard wrote:

I have corrected exactly two people who have shared incorrect information.

In the time I have been waiting for Java Man to respond to my rebuttable I have also found a thread dating back to 2014 in which you were involved. I was actually about to share a link to it.

Can a wizard make arcane scrolls of divine

Fixed links.

Now to the question:
The sage is a prepared caster and so would have to memorize a spell to scribe it. Were he a true spontaneous caster, the spell would have to be one of his spells known and he would also need a slot to scribe it.
Since neither situations applies, he cannot scribe it.

Directly.

He can cast it into a storage mechanism, like a ring of spell storing, and then perhaps use that as the source of the spell for scribing.

He can also scribe it if another caster supplies the spell.

/cevah

Ah a ring of spell storing. I had not considered that as a work around.

Well regardless after reading through the master thread from 5 years ago and a more recent thread by one "Doug M." I feel it would be best to side with "no" per RAW.

I may allow this is the future under RAF but there are other problems that come up. Like determining the cost of said scrolls, but I'll save that for a deferent thread in a different section.

Thank you for fixing the links btw. That was madding.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Ezzard wrote:
Java Man wrote:
Ezzard wrote:
Java Man wrote:
Others will likely disagree with me, but I say no. You can cast the spell "as if you had know and had prepared it", not "it counts as a spell known and prepared."

Alright so here is my argument against that. I'll start by posting the actual text from the spell sage class feature "Spell Study"

"Once per day, a spell sage can spontaneously cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or druid spell list as if it were a wizard spell he knew and had prepared."

This line does not convey that you don't know the spells from the non-wizard spell lists. It only conveys that when you cast those spells they count as wizard spells. In other words when a spell sage casts Cure light wounds it's an arcane spell not a divine spell. I'm sure there are other relevant mechanical anomalies caused by this feature but I've yet to realize them.

In conclusion you still know all the spells on the Bard/Cleric/Druid spell lists. If you did not you would not be able to cast them RAW. Spontaneous or prepared.

With that out of the way you have Scribe scroll witch reads
"You can create a scroll of any spell that you know."
This seems clear cut to me that you could craft a scroll of any spell off the Bard/Cleric/Druid/Wizard spell list. As you have access to all of them.

I see nothing here that alters my perception and interpretation of the rules in this case. Conveniently we aren't at the same table so we don't have to agree.

Oh, as an aside, asking a question and then arguing with folks kind enough to take a moment and share information kinda annoys me, so you'll likely not see me here after this.

Argument is the life blood of a rules discussion forum. I will never cease to be amazed at people who are offended by that.

The point is that you don't listen to the counter-arguments. So it is pretty useless to argue with you.

The Sage ability doesn't make the spell a known spell for the class, it only allows that particular sage to treat that particular spell as know for the time needed to cast it when he uses his Sage ability.
One fraction of second after he has completed the casting that spell isn't a known spell anymore.


baggageboy wrote:
This topic comes up every now and then. It's usually pretty contentious. A similar case is that of the skald and spell kenning. There's lots of arguing both ways, but you won't get a real answer from the devs on it. You'll have to talk with a gm and understand that they are going to decide if it works or not.

Yes it would seem that way. I can't recall which dev it was but one of them once said "Making an archetype is more of an art form than a science"

It seems that the Spell Sage is one such example of that philosophy. I feel as if they wanted to make a mini-mystic theurge but didn't put a whole lot of thought into the ramifications of it's rules. If they were sure of it's function surely they would have responded at least a little after all these years.


Diego Rossi wrote:


The point is that you don't listen to the counter-arguments. So it is pretty useless to argue with you.

The Sage ability doesn't make the spell a known spell for the class,...

You are correct. I read them. All of them. Both in this thread and several others. Yet here I am. Despite being told that I would refuse to leave until being validated I have fully accepted the majority rule. Despite being told I would "ragequit" my own thread others have done so.

It would seem that I am not the one who has trouble "listening" to opinions that run counter to my own.

With that said I suppose now is a good a time as any. Thank you all for participating in this thread. The data you have provided will prove invaluable.


Ezzard wrote:
avr wrote:
Unless one of those people who disagree with Java Man actually show up their existence is strictly theoretical. As you don't actually cast a spell at any round during item creation, you just expend a prepared spell or spell slot over the 8 hour period, count me on the side of 'it doesn't work'.
Where are you getting this 8 hour time limit for item creation?

I didn't see this answered (apologies if it was!), so for posterity I'mma paste this here:

Magic Item Creation wrote:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).

Apparently there is some metaphysical law preventing even a construct caster with no need to sleep, eat, or rest from crafting longer than eight hours in a day.


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blahpers wrote:
Apparently there is some metaphysical law preventing even a construct caster with no need to sleep, eat, or rest from crafting longer than eight hours in a day.

stupid metaphysical labor laws....


Campaign hook: "Villain" plots to move Golarion closer to the sun so that days become shorter and they can craft longer.


blahpers wrote:
Campaign hook: "Villain" plots to move Golarion closer to the sun so that days become shorter and they can craft longer.

players only realize in book 5 that the union leader that hired them plans to use the villain’s planetary manipulation apparatus to free Golarion from labor-causing axial rotation for all time.


blahpers wrote:
Campaign hook: "Villain" plots to move Golarion closer to the sun so that days become shorter and they can craft longer.

Aaaaaand I totally confused orbit with axial rotation. I'm smart today.


blahpers wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Campaign hook: "Villain" plots to move Golarion closer to the sun so that days become shorter and they can craft longer.
Aaaaaand I totally confused orbit with axial rotation. I'm smart today.

Dropping a moon onto the planet seems like it could speed said axial rotation (lots of angular momentum). Of course moving to some rapidly spinning asteroid or space station would be simpler, but no one tells mad villains these things.


blahpers wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Campaign hook: "Villain" plots to move Golarion closer to the sun so that days become shorter and they can craft longer.
Aaaaaand I totally confused orbit with axial rotation. I'm smart today.

You never said that the villian's plan would actually work so its fine.

Strictly speaking a celestial body's orbit does impact the length of a "day". For example, the Earth's moon is tidally locked because it's rotation is in sync with it's orbit.

So, you might not be wrong


What happens on planes and demi-planes where it is always noon - or whichever time -, where the notion of a diurnal cycle has no sense whatsoever?

- I am not talking about planes where time does not pass -


Agénor wrote:

What happens on planes and demi-planes where it is always noon - or whichever time -, where the notion of a diurnal cycle has no sense whatsoever?

- I am not talking about planes where time does not pass -

Then the villian's plan will fail. No one said the villian was sane.

/cevah

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