| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The "Archmages per sq km" equation gets really thrown out of whack upon Waterdeep's arrival on Kortos.
More “magic-fire power” in Waterdeep?
Without a doubt. You roll a ball down a random street in the Realms and you can accidentally hit an Arch Mage...
Well, maybe not lately, but I gave up keeping up with Realms lore a long time ago (partially because there seemed to be so many damned ArchMages cluttering up the landscape).
From memory, albeit old and faulty, I recall Khelben, his consort Laeral, Halaster Blackcloak just to start, being key powerhouses in Waterdeep. Toss in some extra Harper influence, and the usual Greenwood local color, and ya, more "magic firepower" is probably going to be an understatement.
Main Pathfinder Lodge vanishes, but I'm sure the Harpers in Waterdepp would step up to take the reins.
Also, some of those 'big names' in Waterdeep are Greenwood waifu's - so, I'd expect them to be of similar power levels to Jacob's...
(grin)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A cross dimensional rivalry about who has the best taverns and which taverns have the best booze begins!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*Stats from the 3rd Ed Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Hardcover
D&D 3rd ed post-20 levels can't reasonably be compared to Pathfinder post-20 levels. Pathfinder explicitly dropped all of those rules (and I think the OGL actually has some clause related to not including class levels beyond 20, but I was unable to find it in a quick read). At best, it's pretty obvious that Pathfinder 1e post-20 CRs are intended as more or less linear increases in power over 20 (e.g. a level 20 party should feel that a CR 22 creature poses a "hard" challenge while a CR 23 creature is an "epic" encounter.
This was the point of introducing Mythic levels: CRs only increase in a relatively linear way (though numerical power is not linear) and that's not how stories of gods and beings from beyond typically scale.
It makes a lot more sense to ask: what has a given character been shown to do? What sorts of stories in Golarion feature similar power-levels? And then map them that way. For example, a being capable of creating an army of the dead the size of a nation would be comparable to the Whispering Tyrant while a being that can create an entire nation by lifting land out of the sea and sculpting it into a city-state would be comparable to Aroden.
But if you're just a wizard, capable of throwing around really big fireballs and making powerful magical weapons, then you're probably more Razmir-calibre.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
^Looked at OGL 1.0a and didn't see anything about a limit on levels unless it is encoded in some really infernally devious terms. Pathfinder 1st Edition Core Rulebook actually had some quick-and-dirty rules about advancing beyond 20th level, although as far as I know these were never developed further, with Mythic being the (not very good) attempt to replace them.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Waterdeep is about ~9000 feet east to west and and ~15000 north to south and has water on both south and west (with south being the docks). Absalom is ~27600 w/e and ~23000 n/s, and that's not even counting the areas beyond the walls, and only has water directly to the south. Assuming they're swapped in a way both still have their docks, Absalom would be underwater.
Absalom has one district entirely and one district partially underwater even on Kortos.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like to think a lot of people of golarion who wanted to become deities and seize the starstone would be furious that the god-rock is gone and suspicious of rivals who may have done this as some plot. Coming to waterdeeps aid, however, might be Razmiran. Razmir will be glad that nobody will be able to discover his hoax from the starstone cathedral itself, and want to subtly pry into the affairs of other settings to discover if there is another cure to his mortality.
^Looked at OGL 1.0a and didn't see anything about a limit on levels unless it is encoded in some really infernally devious terms. Pathfinder 1st Edition Core Rulebook actually had some quick-and-dirty rules about advancing beyond 20th level, although as far as I know these were never developed further, with Mythic being the (not very good) attempt to replace them.
Going from memory, didn't they also noted that these weren't the final or ideal rules? Either way, you're correct, and, as far as I know, there's not been an update outside of Mythic (which didn't specifically prohibit going past 20 levels, I believe).
I like to think a lot of people of golarion who wanted to become deities and seize the starstone would be furious that the god-rock is gone and suspicious of rivals who may have done this as some plot. Coming to waterdeeps aid, however, might be Razmiran. Razmir will be glad that nobody will be able to discover his hoax from the starstone cathedral itself, and want to subtly pry into the affairs of other settings to discover if there is another cure to his mortality.
Curiously, Razmir might make a fantastic Chosen of Mystra, eventually. Sure he's got this whole... scheme... thing... he keeps going on about, but if he could just get into loving his spells (which, as a 19th level wizard, he's got to at least somewhat) that'd be solid. Being evil isn't something that'll prevent it - even Larloch the evil lich (who eventually tried to eat Mystra's remnants, I think) and (at least briefly) Manshoon Orbakh Manshoon was a Chosen (which is how Greenwood Elminster helped restore Mystra in 5e canon; he stole all the "chosen" fragments and put them back together).
*Stats from the 3rd Ed Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting HardcoverD&D 3rd ed post-20 levels can't reasonably be compared to Pathfinder post-20 levels. Pathfinder explicitly dropped all of those rules (and I think the OGL actually has some clause related to not including class levels beyond 20, but I was unable to find it in a quick read). At best, it's pretty obvious that Pathfinder 1e post-20 CRs are intended as more or less linear increases in power over 20 (e.g. a level 20 party should feel that a CR 22 creature poses a "hard" challenge while a CR 23 creature is an "epic" encounter.
This was the point of introducing Mythic levels: CRs only increase in a relatively linear way (though numerical power is not linear) and that's not how stories of gods and beings from beyond typically scale.
It makes a lot more sense to ask: what has a given character been shown to do? What sorts of stories in Golarion feature similar power-levels? And then map them that way. For example, a being capable of creating an army of the dead the size of a nation would be comparable to the Whispering Tyrant while a being that can create an entire nation by lifting land out of the sea and sculpting it into a city-state would be comparable to Aroden.
But if you're just a wizard, capable of throwing around really big fireballs and making powerful magical weapons, then you're probably more Razmir-calibre.
Szass Tam would then be comparable with the Whispering Tyrant, by your comparisons. He is level 29 (Necromancer 10/Red Wizard 10/Archmage 2/Epic 7), CR 31 (CR boost due to lichdom)
Khelben's Wizard 20/Archmage 3/Epic 4, with CR boost from being a Chosen of Mystra
So, the two are similarly in power to each other using 3rd Ed's rules.
Halaster's Wizard 20/Archmage 5/Epic 5, with no template boosting his CR.
So here's the thing. Are we talking about 2e FR, 3e FR, 3.5e FR, 4e FR, or 5e FR? ()
In 2e and the 3.Xe's you've got a mild diminishing of Mystra because her Chosen actually contain a fragment of her divinity. I remember doing the math once, and, though I've forgotten the exact amount since, figuring that if () Mystra had no Chosen () and reclaimed her divinity, she should be an overdeity (though Ao would likely redistribute her divine ranks, presupposing he had at least 10 more ranks than she). In 4e and 5e this wouldn't happen only because in 4e Mystra was still dead (mostly), and in 5e most of her Chosen power had been reclaimed (as part of the whole "not being dead"... thing).
Either way, the west coast of FR becomes alive with bad. While Absalom has no archwizards of the level of FR, generally speaking such sudden swift alters are baaaaaaaaaaaad. That said, eventually the switch would be retconned or returned and the two places put back where they go, and it would probably be due to FR's powers doing stuff.
Before that, there would be a sudden flurry of powerful people attempting the new Test of the Starstone and problems would come from that.
2e FR would not be able to handle Absalom, in general; various folks in 3.Xe's FR would be more-or-less able to take the city, but probably wouldn't over-all, simply because they're busy and trying to fix the thing... that said, there likely would be an eventual gridlock; 4e creatures would seem practically invulnerable to Absalom, and would be able to breeze through many skill issues, but in return would stumble on relatively simple things (such as not be able to kill all that many soldiers, or inability to cast certain spells, or require lots of money to do so) in return and would be astounded by their healing ability; 5e would be outclassed, though not by as much as 2e - though both the 2e and 5e groups would be astounded by how many spells even a low-grade mage can use.
In Golarion, things would be different.
If we're dealing with 2e FR, Golarion has practically nothing to worry about. If some demigods get uppity, a fireball or three should end that threat right quick. Hit points didn't exist in abudence back then, and saving throws were pretty crap for everyone. Very little else changes, though Waterdeep is likely to be besieged and conquered. Heck, there are no less than than four nearby nations that would just... do that because they could (and/or feel like they should: Cheliax, Osirion, Taldor, and Qadira). It's possible that Andoran could come to the "rescue" and help prevent such a conquest, but it seems much more likely that Waterdeep is soon undone and becomes a "weird" source of Mythic power (as the Mythal slowly gets digested and translated by Pathfinder rules; Mythals have been shown to do that kind of thing before).
If we're dealing with either the 3e or 3.5e FRs () you're going to have slightly different results, but in general, Khelben (whichever) and his wife should be able to leverage the Masked Lords into more-or-less keeping the city safe. There would be... problems... due to the sudden loss of the Starstone, and a few nations would likely try to invade.
And it's right here that my ADD kicks in, and I honestly have entirely forgotten everything else I was going to write, so... TL AWAY! XD
I'd use 3/3.5 Ed Realms, since that would be using relatively-compatible rules. Other Editions would require massive conversions both ways.
Yes and no - while I tend to agree that you should use the most similar, you could actually still do most everything... you'd just get really weird moments.
For example, no on gets a "will save" bonus in 5e, so they'd be especially vulnerable to saves that target will (though they'd get their wisdom modifier, because that's how 3e saves work).
When dealing with 4e, if someone doesn't get a defense bonus, you presume you use the same thing as a baseline: 4e defenses are half level plus appropriate modifier but 3es and 2es don't have a bonus, and anything saving against their stuff (after-the-fact, mind you) has a 55% shot to succeed (barring penalties) because their saving throws are type-less.
Basically, while conversion exists, it's all in how you presuppose they interact - I presuppose they do so with no particular conversion at all - the systems are generally robust enough to interact well (though THAC0 would be the most conversion, it, too, is relatively straight-forward if you base the bonus on armor type).
The real effect (other than complication) is to create a really alien vibe in how these other-worlders interact with, like... everything.
But I point out the possibilities only to make sure we're all baaaaaasically on the same page.