(With everything they contain within the walls, portals and Starstone included, included also underground habitats, harbor and immediate zone included, excluding the inhabited zones out of Waterdeep and Absalom City walls, that remains in their place and must interact with the new city, moment in which this happened: 4710 in Golarion 1491 in Faerûn)
How intense is trade between Shadow Absalom and Absalom?
Let’s start with aluminum.
Same considerations for metals that on Earth had been refined in their metallic form not before the XVIII century: titanium, niobium, tungsten or palladium and uranium.
These elements are costly even today, so I imagine in the Numerian wreks there aren’t amounts as great as Aluminium, but, maybe, for the aliens of the Numerian spaceship titanium wasn’t as costly and so they had great amounts of it. And certainly there must be a little in electronics or mechanic items.
For example tungsten and uranium are both excellent kinetic penetrators, so, maybe, wandering inside a Numerian space ship, you could find depleted uranium ammo or tungsten rods to be used as a kinetic mass destruction weapon (like the “Rod of God” American proposed project)
While titanium alloys are very rare and resistant (and maybe the famous Numerian adamant is a titanium alloy).
So, I wonder, are Natives of Golarion able to produce some of that metals (even in little quantities)?
What could be the price (x kg) of each of those metals if sold outside Numeria?
What kind of pratic uses could they have in Golarion? (In game characteristics and narrative ones)
Obviously It would to long to list all the modern metals and alloys one could find in Numeria and have little or no native production in Golarion, but you are welcome even if you have ideas for others.
And, umh, incidentally, adamant is probably an alloy (known or unknown on Earth) since is artificial, but what is Mithral? Since it is naturally existing it mustn’t be an artificial alloy, so, what is it?
-Treated fruit and vegetable products: to Alkenstar 15K GC (99% via direct inland route); to Nex 301K GC (45% inland route trough Alkenstar; 54% direct sea route); to Jamelray [Trade Hub] 300K GC ( 100% direct sea route; of the stock 25% to remain in Jamelray; 20% to Zelshabbar and Haqqaman to remain; 5% to Katapesh; 10% to Qadira; 10% to Iblydos; 20% to other Keleshite destination; 10% to various destination); Katapesh [major trade hub] 1.100K GC (99% direct and indirect sea route; of the stock 350K to remain in Katapesh, 100K to Osirion, 30K to Holomog, 200K to Qadira, 100K to various Keleshite destination, 20K to Thuvia, 40K to Taldor, 50K to Nex, 90K to Absalom and Kortos Island, both to be used locally and traded and re-traded). Absalom and Kortos island direct sea route, excluding indirect sea route 250K GC (70K GC for use in the Island, 130K GC to Absalom, 20K GC to Cheliax and the Azlanti Ocean route, 30K GC to other destination).
Raw textile and semiprocessed textile fibers of vegetable origins(linen, cotton, hemp): 1100K GC to Alkenstar (were you can find textile industries); 500K GC to Katapesh (partially processed there partially exported all over the world); 350K GC to Absalom (mostly re-traded as raw fibers, especially in Cheliax thanks to slave labor)
-Livestock: 125K GC to Alkenstar, inland route, most of them to be taken to Nex; 55K to Katapesh via direct sea route, mostly to be slaughtered in the county or to be handled to Osirion or to the ma Mwangi Expanse; 10K GC to Mwangi Expanse (direct inland route)
-Leather, cheese, horn and bones, caprine and ovine wool, (cured) meat: 125 K GC to Alkenstar to be processed in industries and consumed; 50K GC to Nex to be consumed; 350 to Katapesh to be processed or retreaded towards the inner sea region: especially to be traded in Absalom, processed in Andoran or Cheliax or sold to markets in Avistan.
Other: sunflower oil, medical plants, drugs, other, mainly to Katapesh 250K GC.
TOTAL AGRICULTURAL (+fishing and farming) EXPORTS: 17.797.000 Golden Coins
beverage from Avistan (Linhorm, Brevan and dwarven beer, Wine from Kyonin, Cheliax, Andoran,Taldor and Cheliax, Grappa from Taldor, whiskey from Varisia) 325K GC;
Karkadè from Osirion 25K GC (being really appreciated due to close ties with Osirian culture)
pesh from Katapesh 400K GC;
natural essences from Kyonin and Vudra 350K GC;
spices and medical plants or plants as material components or ingredients for magic from all the known world (Avistan, Arcadia, Vudra, Kelesh, Mwangi, Tian Xian...) 250K GC
Humanoid (mainly halflings and humans) as a source of meet and blood for certain undeads mainly importing Slaves from Katapesh and Cheliax, often from Mwangi tribesman 1050K GC.
Other 250K GC.
TOTAL AGRICULTURAL IMPORTS 11.450.000 GOlden Coins (including feed for undead)
-Abominations hunted in the Desolation of Mana (as slaves, meat for undeads, exotic skins and trophies or as exotic pets) 150K GC -trade done almost by Gnolls. Main destinations: Geb, Nex, Katapesh.
-Dwarven Bread-Fungi 10K GC to Nex.
TOTAL AGRICULTURAL EXPORTS Alkenstar 185.000 G Coins
Fresh fruits and vegetables 100K GC from Geb and 30K GC from Nex
Treated fruits and vegetables: 15K GC from Geb, 10K Gc from Osirion, 10K GC from other nations
Raw textiles of vegetal origin: 1100K GC from Geb (linen, cotton, hemp) and 800K GC from Osirion, of which just 350K for local use and 1600K for industrial transformation and selling.
-Meat for local use 280K GC, both livestock to be slaughtered and cured meat, mostly from (in order of importance) Geb, Osirion, Katapesh, Qadira and Kelesh, Mwangi jungles. (Excluded livestock passed over)
-Fish for local use 150K GC, mostly from Osirion (both river fish and sea fish), Kortos Island, Cheliax
-Leather, Horns and bones, caprine and ovine wool 125K GC from Geb, 75K GC from Osirion, 35K GC from Qadira and Kelesh satrapies, 10K GC from Taldor. Roughly 90% to be processed in industries and sold abroad as a finished product
Beverage (from Avistan wine, beer, grappa, whiskey from Vudra and Tian Xia tea, from Osirion karkadè, from Iobaria Vodka) 250K GC
Raw Wood and timber (mainly to be used for clockwork or as building material or in industry, or to create fotnitures): 35K GC from Taldor, 10K GC from Andoran 45K GC from Mwangi Expanses
Other, including spices, drugs, medical plants, ivory (mainly of elephant and rhino) furs (of many creatures in particular leopard) and leather (of basilisk, dinosaur, crocodile, snake or lucertoloid) impirted from the Mwangi expanse mainly to be resold abroad 65K GC
Other 250K GC
AGRICULTURAL AND RELATED IMPORTS OF ALKENSAR (mainly raw materials to be reprocessed) 3.440.000 G coins
Note that most trade between Nex and Geb transits for Alkenstar and usually is done by Alkensari intermediarians.
This is just the starting, with two nations.
Note, just the agricultural import exports are present: not mining, not industrial and artisanal transformation of product, not services like magic ones and not tools, like weapons, magic objects, ships...
Having many Golarion Nations an agricultural economy backbone is a good starting point.
The numbers, even if arbitrary, are based on reasonable and real calculations. And on logic and notions from the setting are based exports, imports, productions.
Hi to everyone
What’s before Golarion?
Maybe the most beautiful think of living in a world were the gods power is every day proved and that is polytheistic is that one god does not exclude the other.
In Golarion Gods are not absolute. They are Powerful. They are Immortal. They are part of the Metaphisyc structure of reality, maybe. But not Absolute.
For this reason I would pay respect to all goods and revere there’s mejecstic nature. Even to the bad ones, the terrific ones and the ones that incarnates thinks I personally dislike.
Some god; more than one god at one time. I’ll venerate. Venerate but not worship. Venerate ethimologially has the same tooth of the goodness “Venus” and is related in many ancient languages to words related to “love”/ “desire” / “friendship”.
But what for all the other industrial capabilities of Andoran?
So, if a lone alchemist discover how to do gunpowder and Alkenstar spies find it they hunt it down. The only risk they have to avoid at all cost is that a powerful Nation’s government discover the formula (I don’t think overthrowing Cheliax regime is a viable option). -Could be a funny adventure. To hunt someone that knows the formula and is going to sell it to a foreign Nation. Or to be the hunted.
Firearms number could be kept low even limiting the available supply of GUNPOWDER; IF Alkenstar manages to keep absolutely secret the gunpowder formula (maybe producing it only in Dwarven underground facilities) and IF Alkenstar, opearating in an almost monopoly production regime, manages to keep the EXPORTS LOW. If they exported only a limited quantity and no one else is able to manufacture it or to manufacture it in significant quantities, the marginal utilities of other fire weapons would be low. Practically it would be useless for Abrogail to built 50 thousand muskets if this would increase the demand of gunpowder in a way that makes to expensive for her army to buy it in a sufficient quantity to make to 50K muskets useful.
OK, maybe the Alkenstar Government thought all this!
So, it comes for the first time to my mind that, maybe, the coo-existence of primitive firearms (muskets) and quite advanced (revolvers) could be because of the famous Gunworks produces only the more antiquated things and that the real masterpieces (such as revolvers) are made by the Dwarves underground. This could explain why the muskets are much more than revolvers and help explaining how they are keeping secret the most important industrial secrets: for a foreign spy is much more difficult to spy the underground Forges of the reclusive Dwarves than the ones in the overcrowded melting pot city.
The things you are saying about a little advance over a traditional magic weapon would be right if it were for two points:
1) Magic and magic weapons are quite widespread in Golarion, but not enough to be equipment of wide armies. So: an wide army equipped with proper firearms wins over a wide army with infantry equipped with bows and with an handful of magic weapons. Even because nothing forbidden to the firearms equipped army to use firearms+magic. So firearms may not be decisive for a little party of adventurers. But firearms are decisive for battles (if you are not in my Misvara Universe or your enemy isn’t Xin with it’s Thassilon magicians). So EVERY NATION WANTS FIREARMS. The Nation that gets firearms first wins battle, so, if a single gun arrives in Cheliax, for ex., I don’t see why Abrogail won’t order to experts to examine it and to artisans to reproduce it.
2)In Alkenstar there are NOT JUST EARLIER PRIMITIVE FIREARMS. Maybe some Paizo guy can tell something different ; if it’s the case... let’s imagine I said nothing; but I found material in which is stated in Alkenstar there are revolvers.
*With this I’m not saying I don’t like Alkenstar or that Alkenstar is idiotic.
I wonder: how old is Alkenstar? And why Alkenstari tech isn’t more widespread?
Other question: how much of Alkenstari tech comes from the Alkenstar guy and following humans and how much form the Mana original Dwarves?
I quite agree with Dasrak. I think that he described what would happen in the whole evolution of the situation. I voluntarily imagine that Valar wrath isn’t turned against Golarion and that they didn’t disrupt half-Middle Hearth to humiliate the invasors. I instead imagined that they summon a powerful army of prowling elves; leaded by powerful Maiar, who could use their powers, for instance to pour over ships with giant waves, or raise strong storms directly on Cheleaxian camps. I imagine that they stop at the portal and than send someone to study the other multiverse In tranquillity from a place that could be purchased from Golarion mortals.
Also, even if I know for sure that the ordinary warriors of Middle Earth are not as strong as the Avistan ones, I don’t think they are so weak: regarding the Balrog Tolkien said that it “was the evil that the greed of the dwarves awakened and that it was the cause of Moria fallen.” But he never said that the Balrog destroyed Moria “ALONE”. I think that the Balrog, having seen how much is idolized by Orcs and Goblins, probably summoned an army of them, that he leaded in ancient times to conquer Moria.
I know Arda is much more wider than Middle Earth; and that’s the point in the scenery that I imagined in which commerce between the two worlds remains active before the failed Cheliax invasion. East of Rhûn there are countries much more populated and civilized than Middle Earth lands; and, given the probably rareness of magic items even in those distant lands in Arda; that’s why parts of Middle Earth could become so much important as commercial routes. And that’s why Avistan economy should benefit so much from it.
But the question is: Valar would keep the portal open? And would they allow merchants and mortals to pass?
If so, how much time before Magic becomes more common in Middle Earth?
To you is more likely the Hypothesis of the Ring of Lands or that the Varden defeats the army and than return to undying lands, permitting the peoples of Arda and Golarion to travel and learn and commerce and just preventing other invasions?
And; what would be the reaction of Arda elves to Golarion elves (and vice versa)?
For sure. For this reasons I imagine elves and Gondorian purchasing a little inahabited coastal portion of Varisia from Magnimar.
But you are right. Hell knights are stronger than Middle Earth warriors.
I’m writing it as a different post because it’s not part of the starting question and I’d like to be analyzed and considered at the same level of the other proposed scenarios.
First year: The firsts to note the breach are the Middle-Earth elves, during one of their journeys to Valar lands. They reported back. The noble elven houses starts a council but does not report to Gondor.
Year three: Minor changes in water temperature and salinity; on both sides. Minor changes to climate (a little more humid and hot in Eriador; a little more dry and warm in Cheliax and Nidal). Changes in the marine life and fish stocks on both sides.
Year 4: A lone ship comes from Varda immortal lands to Middle Earth. It has on board some ancient elven kind and the Ainur Gandalf the White to investigate. The ship is send by the Varda into Avistan.
Year 5: The Varda vessel visits Cheliax, Nidal, Varisia, Linnhorm Kingdoms and Hermea.
Year 6: The Varda Ship is back in Middle Earth.
Year 7. A Great Council is held in Rivendell. Are invited representatives of Blue Mountain Dwarves; Coastal Elves; Lothlórien; Thranduil; Roan; The Lone Mountain and even King Aragorn itself is present.
The council decides to send wise and erudite man to study this new powerful magic.
Year 8. More and more merchants are coming to Middle Earth.
Rumors of this extraordinary event reaches many places in Avistan and beyond.
Year 9: Gondor and Elves starts sending ambassadors to Avistani Kingdoms.
Year 10-11: Both worlds continues to study one each other and to commerce.
Year 12: Cheliax brings a fleet at the other side and attacks the Gondor’s domains in Eriador.
Year 13-14: Gondor-Cheliax war.
Year 15-16: Cheliax rules it’s domains in Middle-Earth with Iron Fist and gains the complete control of the breach. Enriching both from new dominion earns and the monopoly of commerce.
Year 17: a grey fleet from east comes silently in a misty night in the port of the occupied elven city of Grey Eavens.
The hundred survivor is send back to the breach as testimonies of the elven power.
Year 18. One victory after the other the norhern part of Eriador is freed.
Year 19. Cheliax sends 20 thousand men to Middle-Earth.
Year 20. A little group of Andorans manages to force the naval blockage and send magic items and weapons to the Gondor army.
Year 21. Abrogail negotiates a new armistice with Gondor and Elves.
Year 22. The Deal is done.
Year 23. Gondor and Elves purchased a coastal area in Varisia from Magnimar and founds an indipendent city Elendil; for Gondorian merchants and to seat a council with the task of studying this New World and its Magic. This council is presiede by the Ainur Gandalf.
Year 24-33. Great part of Middle Earth is continuously becoming poorer and poorer due to continuous commercial flow.
Gondor erudites are now more at ease with Avistani magic techniques.
The Elendil Council is doing great.
While I was writing my post about Kingsmaker athmosphere, my Imagination starts running: what would happen in the following case: The World’s Anchor opens a passage one hundred miles wide in the Ocean. Traveling west from Beriland, after 100 miles far into the sea (if you pass trough the Portal) you start going East towards Chelish norhern and Nidal southern Azlanti coast; after 50 miles of open water in with the world mixes. At the same way traveling West from Cheliax and Nidal, after 100 miles you go into the mixing portion and, then, you start sailing towards East and Beriland coast.
It happens 50 years after Aragorn Becomes King and in 4718. (Supposing nothing dramatic happens in Rise of Runelords or Winter Reign). In this line we not consider Starfinder.
Realistically what would happen?
Anyone has got some personal inspiration to address to render the athmosphere in Southern Brevoy? I mean in case pg of Kingsmaker (still at low levels) travels through it.
Cause, till now, I’m figuring the Wilder places similar to Lone Lands in Middle Earth, Eriador. Frontier towns similar to a “medioeval far west”; countryside similar to English/Shire and Cities as a mix of Norhern Europe/ Games of Thrones and some little inspiration to Wow.
I’m picturing folks houses as stone ones with green roofs; similar to Irish or Icelandic medioeval ones. While castles much more influenced by Taldan style. So much more Gondor/ Italian style. I’m putting even a bit of Galt style. With exiled colored roofs.
I’m inserting even some small village and inventing minor noble houses. I’m depicting in a very detailed and cinematic way landscapes and societies while pg are traveling (of four Pg one is Brevan and the other one Issian; so the place has to be quite familiar for them; but quite descriptive and new for the other two pgs)
So, I ask to everyone what of the following scenarios for you is more likely (and why):
[The key factor is the time that passes from the notice Goes to nearest kingdoms to the time they tries to do something]
-AFTer one year of time in which just adventurers passes through the portal, Korvosa assumes a lot of debts with Druman Banks, marches toward the mountains, take under his control Varisian mountains, passes the fracture, kicks away or declares as Korvosan subjects the people around it, take under control much of Karolis mountains, the devasted Qualinest and part of the Abanasinia plains. Starts sending colonizers, founds two twin great cities near the Gate; and, most lucrative thing, controls all the trade and movements through the two worlds and (probably) Korvosa become a rich and powerful country.
-AFTer one year of time in which just adventurers passes through the portal, Thorbrandin, dig a tunnel to reach the mountains, take under his control Karolhis mountains and than the Varisian mountains near the fracture, passing the fracture, dwarwes kicks away or declares as Korvosan subjects the people around it. Starts sending colonizers, founds two twin great cities near the Gate; and, most lucrative thing, controls all the trade and movements through the two worlds and (probably) Korvosa become a rich and powerful country. Starts a partnership with Janderoff, by digging a tunnel from the portal to the Varisian Dwarven city. Thorbrandin becomes the most rich Nation of all times in Ansalon (by importing Varisian steel) and Janderoff becomes a great player in Avistan politics.
-AFTer one year both Korvosa and Thorbrandin goes to take control of the portal; the eventually start a war that makes very difficult to travel through the fracture.
-AFTer one year Korvosa and Thorbrandin finds an agreement: each Nation will control his side of the portal.
-TWo years passes; than, the most powerful good Nations of Krynn agree to found a commission for Golarion Affair. They found a big city in Kharolis Mountain called “Mission”.
What version do you prefere or think will be more likely/interesting? And why?
So you say there would be a sort of international comitee?
But who leads it?
Abanasinia is quite on itself and there is a lot of political fragmentation in Ansalom.
But I like a lot the idea of an international comitee on Absalonian side.
I think things could go like this; unless:
And about Magic?
Some idea about how will it work?
I’m thinking about Golarion wizards can’t use the moons Hight Magic, unless they study proper techniques; but maybe they recive a bonus and their spells effects are magnified when is over the orizon the Moon linked to their alignments. But innate arcane spellers entering in Krynn would probably have really really magnified spells effect (because they can use in an intuitive way all the Magic around)
Someone has different ideas?
Ok, ok, I don’t mean FALSE gods (such as Razmiran) in Pathfinder grant powers; I mean that if you strongly believe in an Abstract Principe (if you have faith) and you honestly believe it, if a lot of people believe in it in a strong way, that god manifest itself in the Astral Plane, with powers directly proportional to the faith he/se/it recive, and he can give clerical powers to faithful mortals. So a god can exist even if he isn’t “elected god/ created god/ born as a god/ ascended as a god (born from two gods/ Starstone/ killed another god/ ascended in same way).
What would happen if a permanent portal opens between Golarion and Krynn?
At the beginning, due to the very remote position of the reality fracture, in the first months, just animals, outlaws and humanoid passes the portal in both directions; but, probably, at the beginning they think they just discovered a new passage in a different zone of the mountains (someone will note the night sky, fell quite uncomfortable, but will take it as an useless philosophical question). The firsts to take seriously the anomaly would be the fairy in Varisian mountains.
I wander what kind of changes such an event could have for both worlds.
First think to note is that even if in Ansalon they are maybe harsher people, they are less (probably Solamnia, being biggest nation of Ansalon, has the same inhabitants of Andoran -2 or 3 millions Sol and 3 or 4 And-), with less organized societies and less advanced from a technological point of view; they are recovering from Three Apocaliptic Events in the last 3 centuries, plus the great wirms dominion and destabilizations of magic wave, and things like the fact that in Ansalon steel is as valuable as gold, when, for comparison, the not far from city of Janderoff has steel city walls. Biggest city in Avistan is Absalom, with almost half a million inhabitants and another maybe 20 cities that has more than 50 thousand inhabitants; while in Absalom there is ... None. With Just the Dwarven city of Thoradin, and human Panthalas and North Ergoth Capital and a few other touching 30thousand.
But I don't think there will be an Avistani invasion, due to the fact that the fracture it's quite far from the most militaristic and powerful nations of Avistan (Cheliax, Molthune, Taldor, etc...)
My wonders are more about the cultural and economical divergences, let's say, in...20, 30 years. We will see a lot of economic ferment in Abanabasia and than, what?
Another 2 themes:
In Golarion Verse, even a "false" god grant power to followers, because he incarnates in the astral plane. In Krynn only the true gods gives powers.
Magic: in Krynn are the 3 moons that gives to the world the Hight Magic. Otherwise there is just Natural Chaotic Magic, a weaker and more difficult force.
So, Zhangar, you strongly suggest not to make the PCs involved in any major conflict?
Good Idea The Chtulu dreams being the reason why magic it's so difficult on Earth. Very COOL! My compliments!
I also imagine your Earth isn't our Earth, but a Chtulu darker version of our, isn't it?
And, as I asked, your Earth is in the same Universe ("Material Prime Plane") of Golarion as they suggested in the handbook, or in a different one? Or maybe in another Multiverse (different physic laws, magic isn't the same)
I remember twice a day PC have to poo and piss, if they don't do so I give them malus or maybe they are not feeling good during a fight.
You can emit sounds underwater. You can even hear sounds underwater. You can speak underwater, but than your lungs are filled with water and so you die drowned. So, as rule, I'll suggest you that your PC can speak underwater if, for any reason, they can breath underwater; or if they can mentally communicate. Unless this I'll say an air-breathing creature can speak or shout for max 2-3 rounds if he takes a long breath before immersing his head in water, but every time he risks to make water going in hos lungs. Not a simple way to speake. I see no limitations in write in Aquan underwater
Has your Wizard some particular interest, hobby or accademic study that focus his energies or justify a lot of magic, time and resources investment?
He still works to sell his creations or keeps politic contacts or is totally out of the games?
Does he prefer to create magic items or is he focalized at doing spells and rituals?
If u answer this, Senko, maybe I can try to imagine it.
What a question!
Goblins are like snakes for my Dwarw living in Sandpoint.
Being serious, animals are all edible?
Many of them, some definitively not. A lot have an horrible taste. But different cultures eats things you may think disgusting. In Sicily boiled snails are considered very good. Fried frogs are a traditional plat in Milan, once I've eaten a live kind of crab (Moleca) witch is so deliticious they costs 80$ per kilo. In Asia they eat dogs, in south-east Asia beetles, in Africa rats, and so on...
As a master I would like to do such experiment with my players.
May I point out a SCIENTIFIC consideration?
If both your parents are summoned creatures...