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Liberty's Edge

More “magic-fire power” in Waterdeep?

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(Detailed scenario description)

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(With everything they contain within the walls, portals and Starstone included, included also underground habitats, harbor and immediate zone included, excluding the inhabited zones out of Waterdeep and Absalom City walls, that remains in their place and must interact with the new city, moment in which this happened: 4710 in Golarion 1491 in Faerûn)

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What would happen if Absalom and Waterdeep (with everything they contain, including portals and underground places) switched position in the respective planets?
(Detailed scenario description)

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How intense is trade between Shadow Absalom and Absalom?
How Shadow Absalom is provided with food (considered its considerable population)?
Is it produced locally (but I can’t se how, since without daylight, I imagine magic mushroom and other stuff can provide food just for a dent of the tens of thousand of resident humanoids)?
Or is daily traded from Portals?
Does it come mostly from Material Plane Absalom? In that case they must trade heavily on a daily basis, if so, is there a permanently open portal between Absalom and Shadow Absalom? (If it is) who is responsible to keep that portal? Absalom or Shadow Absalom Government? Or a private Guild? Is this portal one of those mentioned in Distant Realms, big enough to let the Dragon Ruler of Shadow Absalom pass?
Is this portal inside the walls of both cities? How both are sure no invasion comes from the other city?
In what kind of relationship are Shadow Absalom and Absalom Governments?
In the event of a Siege of Absalom (if it’s is main supplier) how Shadow Absalom take supplies of food?
Given the fact Shadow Absalom has little local resources but a huge population (for pathfinder standards) it must be a trade hub and since it does little trade between Shadow Golarion location it must be an Inerplanar Trade Hub. What other places are permanently linked to Shadow Absalom (besides Absalom)?
Other important inputs to imagine Shadow Absalom as a trade hub? (Good for a PG that is starting a trade business with and throughout Shadow Absalom)

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Let’s start with aluminum.
Is Aluminium used in Golarion?
On Earth even ancient Romans knew Aluminium, but usually they made use of Aluminium compounds in non metallic form, like alumen salts as catalyst to color textiles. Romans didn’t knew how to extract pure Aluminium from its natural compounds and pure metallic Aluminium is very rare in nature. For this reason metallic Aluminium was much more expensive than gold and used just in very expensive jewelry. The situation didn’t change much since the half of XIX century, when we learned how to extract Aluminium from compounds (in industrial quantities).
So, I wonder, even in Golarion is unknown how to produce aluminum or someone (like dwarves, alkemists, or alkenstari had found out a production process)? So, is something you almost never see and very expansive or more wide used and cheap?
For sure in Golarion there must be at least a source of metallic Aluminium that Earthlings didn’t had: the Numerian Wrecks.
I bet Numerians knew how to produce Aluminium and I also imagine they used both for everyday items, tech items and structures (like internal floors and walls), and Aluminium is very durable over a scale of millennials, so I guess there is still around a lot both inside the intact parts of the ship and scattered here and there between the fragments.
So, sometimes Aluminium and the (more valuable as because stronger) engineered Aluminium alloys must be scavenged, sold and smelted.
Clearly is not exactly easy to scavenge things in Numeria and then bring it to valuable markets (like Cheliax), so Aluminium must be quite expensive, but (to me) clearly not as expansive as in our Ancient Earth (so, I think with a price between silver and gold for simple aluminum and an higher price for rarer aluminum alloys), but what could be the price?
And what kind of items could be made of Aluminium (Aluminium is softer than steel so it seems not very good to do armors -it is even better in protecting you from blasting/slashing since more malleable but does a poor job against piercing- or blades, but it could be very interesting for parts of weapons, like using Aluminium instead than wood for the pole of lances -since it doesn’t break nor it rots and it is light- and, obviously it could be good both for jewelry and everyday items, like for fancy cups or doors knockers, since it never rusts. Instead if we are speaking about aluminum alloys, probably they are even better than ordinary steel available in Golarion) in Golarion and what could be their in game properties (like for swords...)?

Same considerations for metals that on Earth had been refined in their metallic form not before the XVIII century: titanium, niobium, tungsten or palladium and uranium.

These elements are costly even today, so I imagine in the Numerian wreks there aren’t amounts as great as Aluminium, but, maybe, for the aliens of the Numerian spaceship titanium wasn’t as costly and so they had great amounts of it. And certainly there must be a little in electronics or mechanic items.

For example tungsten and uranium are both excellent kinetic penetrators, so, maybe, wandering inside a Numerian space ship, you could find depleted uranium ammo or tungsten rods to be used as a kinetic mass destruction weapon (like the “Rod of God” American proposed project)
Or palladium in electronics or in batteries (if smelted pure palladium is physically similar than platinum, so, I image, it would value more than platinum-since similar but rarer-).

While titanium alloys are very rare and resistant (and maybe the famous Numerian adamant is a titanium alloy).

So, I wonder, are Natives of Golarion able to produce some of that metals (even in little quantities)?

What could be the price (x kg) of each of those metals if sold outside Numeria?

What kind of pratic uses could they have in Golarion? (In game characteristics and narrative ones)

Obviously It would to long to list all the modern metals and alloys one could find in Numeria and have little or no native production in Golarion, but you are welcome even if you have ideas for others.

And, umh, incidentally, adamant is probably an alloy (known or unknown on Earth) since is artificial, but what is Mithral? Since it is naturally existing it mustn’t be an artificial alloy, so, what is it?
The periodic table has not much empty space... Is Mithral an ordinary element (like silver, titanium or platinum) but filled with magic energies that gives to its matter new physical properties?

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Tell me if you have some advise: like less detailed statistics, more description and narration of dynamics...

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Geb: Exports:
-Wheat: to Alkenstar 350K GC (99% via direct inland route); to Nex 1.600K GC (45% inland route trough Alkenstar; 54% direct sea route); to Jamelray [Trade Hub] 1.500K GC ( 100% direct sea route; of the stock 25% to remain in Jamelray; 20% to Zelshabbar and Haqqaman to remain; 5% to Katapesh; 10% to Qadira; 10% to Iblydos; 20% to other Keleshite destination; 10% to various destination); Katapesh [major trade hub] 4.000K GC (99% direct and indirect sea route; of the stock 950K to remain in Katapesh, 350K to Osirion, 250K to Holomog, 450K to Qadira, 600K to various Kelesh destination, 200K to Thuvia, 250K to Taldor, 150K to Nex, 800 to Absalom and Kortos Island, both to be used locally and traded and re-traded), Absalom (direct sea route, excluding trade from intermediary ports like Katapesh) 1250K GC (of which 250K GC to remain in the island, 50K to Thuvia, 250K to Rahadoum, 150K to Cheliax, 50K to Andoran, 200K to Taldor, 50K goes to the Sellen Route, 150K to Qadira and other Kelesh Destination; 50 K to other routes like the Azlanti Ocean Route, for Nidal Varisia...)

Geb: Exports:
-Other cereals including animal fodder: to Alkenstar 80K GC (99% via direct inland route); to Nex 400K GC (45% inland route trough Alkenstar; 54% direct sea route); to Jamelray [Trade Hub] 500K GC ( 100% direct sea route; of the stock 25% to remain in Jamelray; 20% to Zelshabbar and Haqqaman to remain; 5% to Katapesh; 10% to Qadira; 10% to Iblydos; 20% to other Keleshite destination; 10% to various destination); Katapesh [major trade hub] 1.500K GC (99% direct and indirect sea route; of the stock 500K to remain in Katapesh, 150K to Osirion, 50K to Holomog, 200K to Qadira, 200K to various Keleshite destination, 50K to Thuvia, 50K to Taldor, 50K to Nex, 150K to Absalom and Kortos Island, both to be used locally and traded and re-traded), Absalom (direct sea route, excluding trade from intermediary ports like Katapesh) 800K GC (of which 50K GC to remain in the island, 50K to Thuvia, 150K to Rahadoum, 50K to Cheliax, 25K to Andoran, 250K to Taldor, 25K goes to the Sellen Route, 150K to Qadira and other Kelesh Destination; 50 K to other routes like the Azlanti Ocean Route, for Nidal Varisia...)

-Fresh fruit and vegetables: to Alkenstar 100K GC; to Nex 250K GC; to Katapesh 185K GC(mainly for use in the country, partially to e exported)

-Treated fruit and vegetable products: to Alkenstar 15K GC (99% via direct inland route); to Nex 301K GC (45% inland route trough Alkenstar; 54% direct sea route); to Jamelray [Trade Hub] 300K GC ( 100% direct sea route; of the stock 25% to remain in Jamelray; 20% to Zelshabbar and Haqqaman to remain; 5% to Katapesh; 10% to Qadira; 10% to Iblydos; 20% to other Keleshite destination; 10% to various destination); Katapesh [major trade hub] 1.100K GC (99% direct and indirect sea route; of the stock 350K to remain in Katapesh, 100K to Osirion, 30K to Holomog, 200K to Qadira, 100K to various Keleshite destination, 20K to Thuvia, 40K to Taldor, 50K to Nex, 90K to Absalom and Kortos Island, both to be used locally and traded and re-traded). Absalom and Kortos island direct sea route, excluding indirect sea route 250K GC (70K GC for use in the Island, 130K GC to Absalom, 20K GC to Cheliax and the Azlanti Ocean route, 30K GC to other destination).

Raw textile and semiprocessed textile fibers of vegetable origins(linen, cotton, hemp): 1100K GC to Alkenstar (were you can find textile industries); 500K GC to Katapesh (partially processed there partially exported all over the world); 350K GC to Absalom (mostly re-traded as raw fibers, especially in Cheliax thanks to slave labor)

-Livestock: 125K GC to Alkenstar, inland route, most of them to be taken to Nex; 55K to Katapesh via direct sea route, mostly to be slaughtered in the county or to be handled to Osirion or to the ma Mwangi Expanse; 10K GC to Mwangi Expanse (direct inland route)

-Leather, cheese, horn and bones, caprine and ovine wool, (cured) meat: 125 K GC to Alkenstar to be processed in industries and consumed; 50K GC to Nex to be consumed; 350 to Katapesh to be processed or retreaded towards the inner sea region: especially to be traded in Absalom, processed in Andoran or Cheliax or sold to markets in Avistan.

Other: sunflower oil, medical plants, drugs, other, mainly to Katapesh 250K GC.

TOTAL AGRICULTURAL (+fishing and farming) EXPORTS: 17.797.000 Golden Coins

Agricultural imports:
fish (from Jamelray, Osirion, Kortos Island, Azlanti Ocean) 75K GC;

beverage from Avistan (Linhorm, Brevan and dwarven beer, Wine from Kyonin, Cheliax, Andoran,Taldor and Cheliax, Grappa from Taldor, whiskey from Varisia) 325K GC;

Karkadè from Osirion 25K GC (being really appreciated due to close ties with Osirian culture)

pesh from Katapesh 400K GC;

natural essences from Kyonin and Vudra 350K GC;

spices and medical plants or plants as material components or ingredients for magic from all the known world (Avistan, Arcadia, Vudra, Kelesh, Mwangi, Tian Xian...) 250K GC

Humanoid (mainly halflings and humans) as a source of meet and blood for certain undeads mainly importing Slaves from Katapesh and Cheliax, often from Mwangi tribesman 1050K GC.

Other 250K GC.

TOTAL AGRICULTURAL IMPORTS 11.450.000 GOlden Coins (including feed for undead)

(Agricultural exports)
Fertilizers of organic origin 35K GC to Geb (+125K GC of synthetic fertilizers)

-Abominations hunted in the Desolation of Mana (as slaves, meat for undeads, exotic skins and trophies or as exotic pets) 150K GC -trade done almost by Gnolls. Main destinations: Geb, Nex, Katapesh.

-Dwarven Bread-Fungi 10K GC to Nex.


Wheat + other cereals 430K GC from Geb and 70K GC from Osirion,

Fresh fruits and vegetables 100K GC from Geb and 30K GC from Nex

Treated fruits and vegetables: 15K GC from Geb, 10K Gc from Osirion, 10K GC from other nations

Raw textiles of vegetal origin: 1100K GC from Geb (linen, cotton, hemp) and 800K GC from Osirion, of which just 350K for local use and 1600K for industrial transformation and selling.

-Meat for local use 280K GC, both livestock to be slaughtered and cured meat, mostly from (in order of importance) Geb, Osirion, Katapesh, Qadira and Kelesh, Mwangi jungles. (Excluded livestock passed over)

-Fish for local use 150K GC, mostly from Osirion (both river fish and sea fish), Kortos Island, Cheliax

-Leather, Horns and bones, caprine and ovine wool 125K GC from Geb, 75K GC from Osirion, 35K GC from Qadira and Kelesh satrapies, 10K GC from Taldor. Roughly 90% to be processed in industries and sold abroad as a finished product

Beverage (from Avistan wine, beer, grappa, whiskey from Vudra and Tian Xia tea, from Osirion karkadè, from Iobaria Vodka) 250K GC

Raw Wood and timber (mainly to be used for clockwork or as building material or in industry, or to create fotnitures): 35K GC from Taldor, 10K GC from Andoran 45K GC from Mwangi Expanses

Other, including spices, drugs, medical plants, ivory (mainly of elephant and rhino) furs (of many creatures in particular leopard) and leather (of basilisk, dinosaur, crocodile, snake or lucertoloid) impirted from the Mwangi expanse mainly to be resold abroad 65K GC

Other 250K GC

AGRICULTURAL AND RELATED IMPORTS OF ALKENSAR (mainly raw materials to be reprocessed) 3.440.000 G coins

Note that most trade between Nex and Geb transits for Alkenstar and usually is done by Alkensari intermediarians.

This is just the starting, with two nations.

Note, just the agricultural import exports are present: not mining, not industrial and artisanal transformation of product, not services like magic ones and not tools, like weapons, magic objects, ships...

Having many Golarion Nations an agricultural economy backbone is a good starting point.

The numbers, even if arbitrary, are based on reasonable and real calculations. And on logic and notions from the setting are based exports, imports, productions.

Liberty's Edge

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Hi to everyone
I’ll try to create a verbal map of all trade routes (value in mo), involving all the main Nation of the Inner Sea Region (and something beyond).
I’ll state before the name of the country, like, Osirion; than the voice import or export; the name of the product, like, wheat, and than the Destination of the good, stating before the direct destinations, like, Taldor, Andoran and than, if the good is sent to a trade hub like Absalom, the percentage of this good sent to other secondary destination.
The same thing for imports.
Since is a quite long work, I’ll start for categories and firstly with raw and semi processed agricultural products.
If someone has observations...
If someone with more time wants to create a visual map, with arrows, even better

Liberty's Edge

Thanks UnArcaneElection!
Only note: you may referee to muzzle loading revolvers; that predate the modern ones.
There is not any material regarding this, but I Imagine for Alkenstar they Imagined the percussion-cap breechloader revolvers (the ones you can see in a Western) created (or available) in the XIX century.
The revolvers you are referring too, have a fire rate that is almost as bad as muskets’ one. There is not official material.
But I imagine Paizo Guys are referring to the more performant revolvers.

Liberty's Edge

@James Jacobs

Liberty's Edge

What’s before Golarion?
Multiverse as an Origin and an age or exist from... timeless time?
The Originals Gods of Golarion were mortals of more ancient worlds (as happened to Aroden)?
Beyond Golarion the metaphysic changes; there are different gods in charge (such as in Krynn)?
Whose gods are worshipped in other worlds (Asmodeus? &?)?
There is some kind of cooperation between the gods of different pantheons and the gods ruling different worlds?
Material plane world number is infinite?
Every Material Plane world as a “private” set of related Planes?
So, for ex, the Prime World of Golarion is the same one of a Different world or they have different ones?
It changes something for external Planes?
(Planets of the same solar sistem such as Castrovel are linked to the same places in other planes and have the same Gods in Charge? Pharasma rules there too?)
Different planets sytuation is different or similar to distant worlds such as the Thriece Tenths Kingdom of Rasputin?

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*isn’t more common in the common people

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*the same root of goodness Venus

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Maybe the most beautiful think of living in a world were the gods power is every day proved and that is polytheistic is that one god does not exclude the other.
There is not a (supposedly) Absolute Being. Absolute Visions of Reality between which you must choose (Not very serious to say: From Monday to Wensdey I’m Catholic, from Wednesday to Friday Lutheran, Friday Muslim, Saturday Jewish and Sunday I’m Indu.).
This beacause all this is Related to Absolute.

In Golarion Gods are not absolute. They are Powerful. They are Immortal. They are part of the Metaphisyc structure of reality, maybe. But not Absolute.

For this reason I would pay respect to all goods and revere there’s mejecstic nature. Even to the bad ones, the terrific ones and the ones that incarnates thinks I personally dislike.

Some god; more than one god at one time. I’ll venerate. Venerate but not worship. Venerate ethimologially has the same tooth of the goodness “Venus” and is related in many ancient languages to words related to “love”/ “desire” / “friendship”.
More than one god could be loved by me for what he represent: Nethys, Desna, Callisra, Abadar, Sarenrae, Irori, etc..
Some god I’ll adore. Adore but not worship. Adore in the etymology sense of *Latin AD-ORARE (AD ORIS), BRING TO THE MOUTH. That originally relates the mouth to its link with the soul. And it means to bring some god in the soul. It is something more deep than love.
But, anyway, ADORE, not WORSHIP, having what a god represent deep in my soul doesn’t mean blind following.
Even because I know this god is not the Ultimste meaning of Everything; but just ... SOMETHING IN WHICH MY SOUL IS MIRRORING.
What specific god I’ll Adore I think depends from the moment of my life and what I’m focused on at that moment.
In this very precise moment of my life could be Abadar, earlier in my life I could have adored Nethys or the Green Faith God.
This more-than-one-Religion attitude is something quite usual in the Far East, where religions (etymologically religion is rebind) are less Absolute not having one omnipotent God; were many people declares them selves Taoist AND Buddhist AND Shintoism or Confucian.
Even if I’m not from the Far East I like this attitude and I’m surprised in a world such Golarion, were many gods are proved real is more common in the common people.
This may make me be not a good Cleric; but, who knows maybe some god of Golarion would appreciate it.

Liberty's Edge

But what for all the other industrial capabilities of Andoran?
Flying Baloons or Cheap Steel?
Why they aren’t widespreading?
I think everyone in Golarion would like to have flying balloons (if you don’t already have gryphons) and everyone likes to make cheaper and stronger steel (another Dwarven secret -known by both Janderoff and Alkenstar dwarves)?
And so force all the other Alkenstar marvels (piping waters in commoners’ homes... etc)

Liberty's Edge

So, if a lone alchemist discover how to do gunpowder and Alkenstar spies find it they hunt it down. The only risk they have to avoid at all cost is that a powerful Nation’s government discover the formula (I don’t think overthrowing Cheliax regime is a viable option). -Could be a funny adventure. To hunt someone that knows the formula and is going to sell it to a foreign Nation. Or to be the hunted.
But, maybe, because I’m a f#@$ing Earther and I know the power of gunpowder I’m giving so much attention to firearms, maybe, for the reasons that I told and other that makes so difficult to create cost-effective fire weapons and for the abundance of MAGIC WEAPONS, they can see less the potential of those weapons. Even more because MOST GOVERNMENTS IN GOLARION ARE CONSERVATIVE. I know in Andoran they are more interested in progress. Maybe there the government pays more attention to firearms. Enough to purchase hundreds from Alkenstar and to create more themselves.
Obviously they don’t have to exaggerate; to avoid Cheliax or Taldor thinks they are becoming to dangerous and preventively attack them.
So, I think muskets divisions in Nations such as Andoran (or Elite Units with Revolvers in Druma, for the matter) May be possible and doesn’t change the war game rules.

Liberty's Edge

Firearms number could be kept low even limiting the available supply of GUNPOWDER; IF Alkenstar manages to keep absolutely secret the gunpowder formula (maybe producing it only in Dwarven underground facilities) and IF Alkenstar, opearating in an almost monopoly production regime, manages to keep the EXPORTS LOW. If they exported only a limited quantity and no one else is able to manufacture it or to manufacture it in significant quantities, the marginal utilities of other fire weapons would be low. Practically it would be useless for Abrogail to built 50 thousand muskets if this would increase the demand of gunpowder in a way that makes to expensive for her army to buy it in a sufficient quantity to make to 50K muskets useful.
Maybe all the bigger players (Cheliax, Andorran, Taldor, Osirion, Kelesh) of the Inner Sea region decided to agree not to try to make firearms in great numbers to avoid to spend enormous amount of money to make expensive weapons that they can only fire occasionally.

OK, maybe the Alkenstar Government thought all this!

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*To make NOT economic to build them abroad.
[...] sell 5-10 thousand per year.

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So, it comes for the first time to my mind that, maybe, the coo-existence of primitive firearms (muskets) and quite advanced (revolvers) could be because of the famous Gunworks produces only the more antiquated things and that the real masterpieces (such as revolvers) are made by the Dwarves underground. This could explain why the muskets are much more than revolvers and help explaining how they are keeping secret the most important industrial secrets: for a foreign spy is much more difficult to spy the underground Forges of the reclusive Dwarves than the ones in the overcrowded melting pot city.
This could also explain why they developed so early quite advanced weapons: the answer is: they aren’t.
Dwarves already mastered the creation of revolvers and other things at the time of the founding of Alkenstar; but they shared with the humans just the oldest technology, they already perfectioned millennials ago (but that for humans was already quite impressive).
That would explain why no one outside Alkenstar can make a decent revolver at a decent price. (You can do reverse engineering, but, if you don’t know how Dwarves’ industrial secrets, to built a revolver would be possible but far to expensive for war porpoises).
Other nations interest in muskets could be lesser (given they have a rate fire of 2 per minute, being generous), but for me is not yet clear why they don’t try anyway to create muskets divisions and to build some of them in their Nations: maybe they are; in that case the Alkenstari must sell supplies of muskets enough to discourage industries in foreign countries and limit duties, to sell them to prices hight but not so hight to make economic to built them abroad. In this case I think they should sell at least 5-10 thousand muskets abroad.)
What do you think?

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*muzzle loader revolver, any way more advanced than muzzle loader muskets

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The things you are saying about a little advance over a traditional magic weapon would be right if it were for two points:

1) Magic and magic weapons are quite widespread in Golarion, but not enough to be equipment of wide armies. So: an wide army equipped with proper firearms wins over a wide army with infantry equipped with bows and with an handful of magic weapons. Even because nothing forbidden to the firearms equipped army to use firearms+magic. So firearms may not be decisive for a little party of adventurers. But firearms are decisive for battles (if you are not in my Misvara Universe or your enemy isn’t Xin with it’s Thassilon magicians). So EVERY NATION WANTS FIREARMS. The Nation that gets firearms first wins battle, so, if a single gun arrives in Cheliax, for ex., I don’t see why Abrogail won’t order to experts to examine it and to artisans to reproduce it.
And it’s difficult to imagine Alkenstar forbidding Abrogail from doing something in her domains.
I’m not saying Last Samurai situations are impossible, but, Japan Last Samurai was a reclusive kingdom thousand miles away from Europe; Alkenstar have much more less reclusive neighbors.

2)In Alkenstar there are NOT JUST EARLIER PRIMITIVE FIREARMS. Maybe some Paizo guy can tell something different ; if it’s the case... let’s imagine I said nothing; but I found material in which is stated in Alkenstar there are revolvers.
Now. I don’t know if it’s on purpose or because the creatives liked the aesthetic of revolvers and decided to ignore every technical aspect.
If it’s on purpose maybe someone can explain it.
If it’s because aesthetic beats science, I’ll say: ok guys, it’s a fantasy world, not a history of the war treaty, I’m aware of it. But logic is indeed required. If you add Roman Laegions and cavalry in a Stone Age setting you can’t expect to leave the setting the same.
When I sit to the play table as a Master I must think I’m describing a world that could be real. In which someone could really walk in. It’s required for a memorable play, not just fun, but even majestic, that the Master is fooled to fool the players and make them dream of being in another world for three hours.
And so, to fool the master, aesthetic is equal logic.
Sorry for the digression: the fact is in Alkenstar in some material I found there are both muzzleloader muskets and revolvers. To go from muzzleloader to revolvers are required a lot of technical improvements that on Earth required centuries of efforts in a world were firearms were much more widespread than Golarion. To go from a muzzleloading musket to a revolver are required a lot of intermediate weapons, such as breeechload muskets, increasingly sophisticated percussion cap an, I’m not a weapon expert, but I think, even some kind of magazine weapon. Then you could have a revolver. The army equipped with the next generation of weapons in this list would not just had a vantage over the army equipped with the previous generation, would simply have ANNIHILATED the other army. And, if Turks could have take Costantinopoli, which was unconquerable for more than a thousand years breaching it’s walls with the Rudimental XIV century firearms; what could be the advantage of a nation using XIX century much more advanced fire weapons against a mediaeval Nations ?
So, that’s why ALKENSTAR FIREARMS ARE NOT SO PRIMITIVE (even if the lone revolvers in Alkenstar are the on earth very ephemeral early XIX century muzzleloader-revolvers, any way more advanced than revolver), and ALKENSTAR WEAPONS ARE A MAJOR ADVANTAGE EVEN IN A MAGIC WORLD.
Maybe not for little battles, in which magic/ heroic players, magic items or magic creatures can be much more effective than firearms.
But certainly for big battles with thousand of man, where the equipment is fundamental for the result.
So, the question remains?
How could in a Lone City have developed in a bit more than one century all the progresses that in the Whole Earth has made in five (from the first firearms in western countries -excluding the Chinese firelances, existed for more than a millennia, to invention of revolvers)?
[Unless the Dwarves had already created advanced weapons before Alkenstar discover]
And why nearby Nations aren’t struggling to make firearms be used by they’re regular armies?
Why if a lone adventurer in Taldor or Varisia May have it a king should not have taken interest in them in the last decades?

*With this I’m not saying I don’t like Alkenstar or that Alkenstar is idiotic.
I really like alkenstar and I played a 3 sessions investigative play in Alkenstar and both me and the player loved the setting. (Even the more aficionados to classic fantasy). I think who created it it’s simply a genius!
But I’m simply suggesting to pay more attention to the effects of putting a little industrial revolution in a mediaeval world; and to think an explanation why the things are going how they are going for us poor fool masters (a part from: “Ehi, it’s funny; guys!”).
Maybe, while you are thinking something that could convince even the must stubbornly curious masters, who knows... something interesting such as an adventure could born not-on-porpoise (in the same way not-on-porpoise Internet was created when someone was trying to solve different problems for a group focused on subatomic particles)

Liberty's Edge

I wonder: how old is Alkenstar? And why Alkenstari tech isn’t more widespread?
I mean; I know they purposely limit Gunworks weapons exports; but, I mean..., I assume they can industrially produce other goods.
I know even on Earth, while in England were occurring the industrial revolution large parts of Europe itself were living an almost Medioeval lifestyle; but even in the deep rural Russia you weren’t seeing medieval knights in full armor, and while farmers lived as centuries before there were already available at least Rinascimental technology level in Russian cities.
I mean... intelligent beings tries always to improve technology (unless you are a Druid) so I don’t see why Cheliax shouldn’t send spyies to know how to make gunpowder or guns or Druma shouldn’t try to acquire, for example, the secrets for manufacturing cheap steel to set up industries in Avistan.
So, if Alkenstar is centuries old, there’s NO WAY there is such technology gap in nearby nations such as Osirion.
Some gap is plausible, even probable, but thinking a XIX century city-state (Alkenstar) and a Medioeval-Ancient World nation (Osirion) can coexist one downriver the other is simply impossible.

Other question: how much of Alkenstari tech comes from the Alkenstar guy and following humans and how much form the Mana original Dwarves?
Because, if I remember correctly, Varisian dwarves in Janderoff had built steel walls and, since in Middleages manufacturing steel was overwhelmingly expensive (that’s why they hadn’t anything bigger than armors made in steel, while we have the Tour Eiffel made in steel, with more efficient and cheap tech). So I wonder how much advanced is dwarven metallurgy and how much Alkenstar technology owes to them (and, if they are so Advanced in Metallurgy capabilities that they can manufacture STEEL WALLS, why the F*K Dwarves are so marginal in Golarion and how could they have been kicked in the ** by Stone Age Ogres! Have you ever imagine trying to pierce a steel wall with a copper-stone lance while people are firing steel darts with a repeating cross bow against your body covered with a leather armor?)

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I quite agree with Dasrak. I think that he described what would happen in the whole evolution of the situation. I voluntarily imagine that Valar wrath isn’t turned against Golarion and that they didn’t disrupt half-Middle Hearth to humiliate the invasors. I instead imagined that they summon a powerful army of prowling elves; leaded by powerful Maiar, who could use their powers, for instance to pour over ships with giant waves, or raise strong storms directly on Cheleaxian camps. I imagine that they stop at the portal and than send someone to study the other multiverse In tranquillity from a place that could be purchased from Golarion mortals.
But a full scale war would probably go as Dasrak suggested.
It’s a likely scenario if Valar decides to attack. But why would they declare war to an intere multiverse? I think they are wise enough.
If their “divine morphic” powers are limited in the other universe they can anyway lift a giant tsunami from the Arda’s side through the one-hundred-miles wide portal. It won’t destroy Avistan civilization, but I imagine it would be a major threat for coastal Cheliax shores near Azlanti ocean. And if they send another fleet they could do it another time. And than again. With so great damages they would probably still and wait and would renounce to invasions.

Also, even if I know for sure that the ordinary warriors of Middle Earth are not as strong as the Avistan ones, I don’t think they are so weak: regarding the Balrog Tolkien said that it “was the evil that the greed of the dwarves awakened and that it was the cause of Moria fallen.” But he never said that the Balrog destroyed Moria “ALONE”. I think that the Balrog, having seen how much is idolized by Orcs and Goblins, probably summoned an army of them, that he leaded in ancient times to conquer Moria.

I know Arda is much more wider than Middle Earth; and that’s the point in the scenery that I imagined in which commerce between the two worlds remains active before the failed Cheliax invasion. East of Rhûn there are countries much more populated and civilized than Middle Earth lands; and, given the probably rareness of magic items even in those distant lands in Arda; that’s why parts of Middle Earth could become so much important as commercial routes. And that’s why Avistan economy should benefit so much from it.

But the question is: Valar would keep the portal open? And would they allow merchants and mortals to pass?
And the same would be done by Golarion powers?

If so, how much time before Magic becomes more common in Middle Earth?
And how could Erebor benefit of the huge wealth of its government to buy Golarion stuff and became a major magic user?
And how many people are going to live in the other world; from both sides?
(Probably a lot of the Mordor -human and orcs- inhabitants; enclosed there with a booming population. And by the fact that in Avistan they could be less stigmatized: MORDOR ORCS are NOT GOLARION ORCS; the same name for different races)
I think Valar would not close the portal as long as they think they can learn from the other universe and contain the threat or their inhabitants) but I’m not so sure they are going to make everyone pass.
To prevent it they could raise a ring of Land around the portal and make it keep by creating creatures as strong as Ent to protect it and just one channel that goes from the encircled waters to the Ocean, guarded by a fort with an elven garrison and some Maiar.

To you is more likely the Hypothesis of the Ring of Lands or that the Varden defeats the army and than return to undying lands, permitting the peoples of Arda and Golarion to travel and learn and commerce and just preventing other invasions?

And; what would be the reaction of Arda elves to Golarion elves (and vice versa)?
I mean; they are quite similar; but the Golarion ones are not immortal.
Could they mate more frequently than human and elves in Middle Earth; given the similarities?
And is going the offspring of such relationship be just a long-lifespan mortal as Golarion elf or immortal as the Arda ones?
Those hybrids needs the Valar permission to become immortal as happened to the half-blood Elrond?

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For sure. For this reasons I imagine elves and Gondorian purchasing a little inahabited coastal portion of Varisia from Magnimar.
Ok, ok, elves are not so strong comparing to Golarion characters (but remember I’m keeping in mind the Film’s version of Middle Earth); but Valar are epic characters (I mean; they sunk a continent and reshaped the world in a night). The strongest between even the Maiar are even very strong. Remember Sauron is just a Maiar. And I don’t think that there is in Cheliax anyone able to defeat Sauron at the height of its power. Probably Sauron is an Epic Character. And he is just one Maiar.

But you are right. Hell knights are stronger than Middle Earth warriors.

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I’m writing it as a different post because it’s not part of the starting question and I’d like to be analyzed and considered at the same level of the other proposed scenarios.

First year: The firsts to note the breach are the Middle-Earth elves, during one of their journeys to Valar lands. They reported back. The noble elven houses starts a council but does not report to Gondor.
They sends one ore two vessels on exploration in Avistan.
Year two: Elves notice that those people are much more advanced in Magic, at the levels of the elves of the First Age. So in another council they decide to send a message to Valar.

Year three: Minor changes in water temperature and salinity; on both sides. Minor changes to climate (a little more humid and hot in Eriador; a little more dry and warm in Cheliax and Nidal). Changes in the marine life and fish stocks on both sides.
A lost ship (“the Fist”)
that was trying to go from Cheliax to Arcadian colonies goes to Beriland.
It trades exotic goods and it goes back with Cheliax with a lot of strange valuable goods and a lot of strange stories in the following year.

Year 4: A lone ship comes from Varda immortal lands to Middle Earth. It has on board some ancient elven kind and the Ainur Gandalf the White to investigate. The ship is send by the Varda into Avistan.

Year 5: The Varda vessel visits Cheliax, Nidal, Varisia, Linnhorm Kingdoms and Hermea.
The Fist ship is back in Middle Earth. It brings a lot of goods and, this time, it travels all long Middle Earth coast, till Anduin estuary and then Pelargir.
Aragorn, the Gondor’s King, heard about the rumors about this exotic ship.
The ship leaves Gondor; but the rumors starts circulating.

Year 6: The Varda Ship is back in Middle Earth.
An ambassador is send to Varda to report back.
Gandalf asks for a council between all the races; he had found a lot of dangerous and perilous things to report.

Year 7. A Great Council is held in Rivendell. Are invited representatives of Blue Mountain Dwarves; Coastal Elves; Lothlórien; Thranduil; Roan; The Lone Mountain and even King Aragorn itself is present.
Many merchant and tens of ships starts coming from Avistan.

The council decides to send wise and erudite man to study this new powerful magic.
Great concerns are raised about Cheliax; which is reported as Evil as Sauron. All armies, after fifty years of peace has to be ready again.

Year 8. More and more merchants are coming to Middle Earth.
Avistan has a lot of things that Middle Earth seeks for: Magic items (before invaluable and very rare); new metals such as adamantium and a new kind of mithril (not so precious and with the same strength and lightness; but several times cheaper; and exotic animals, products, drugs, and so on.
The unique things that are going to the opposite way are the Shire’s tobacco and Middle-Earth elven
art crafts.
This starts causing: a revitalization of Eriador and of Cheliax and Nidal economies and a flow of money away from the rest of Middle-Earth to Avistan, rapidly imporishing Middle Earth economies.

Rumors of this extraordinary event reaches many places in Avistan and beyond.
Pathfinder society sets up it greatest expedition ever.
Explorers are also send by Thrune house; Andoran leaders and merchant gilds and by Rahadum and Magnimar.

Year 9: Gondor and Elves starts sending ambassadors to Avistani Kingdoms.
Pathfinder are going in the most important places in Middle Earth.
The first people who are permanently going to live in the other world: some merchant goes to live in Gondor and little settlements starts be founding by avistani in Eriador.
Umbar Merchants starts passing through the portal.
The council commission is doing great efforts to study Avistan widespread magic and to learn it.

Year 10-11: Both worlds continues to study one each other and to commerce.
At the Time of the War of the Ring Gondor is more or less similar to Taldor; in terms of population, dimension and economy. At that time Gondor population was more or less 3 millions. Less than Taldor. But population continues growing for 50 years and so economy. Now most part of Eriador is under Gondor’s king authority and the kingdom is much more vast.
Now Gondor has more or less 5 million inhabitants. A fervent economy and the dimensions of the Taldan Empire at its Height. It’s army and navy is comparable to Cheliax one. But it suffers a severe lack of magic Knowledge.

Year 12: Cheliax brings a fleet at the other side and attacks the Gondor’s domains in Eriador.

Year 13-14: Gondor-Cheliax war.
Cheliax couldn’t send all its army; so it has to face much more troops.
25.000 Cheliaxian against 80.000 Gondorian.
But their knowledge in Magic is impressive. Their army attacks from north and from south. They conquer great part of Eriador; all its southern part near Greyflood estuary and Enedwaith and the Elven Grey Heavens, and Bree and The North Decuman in the Shire.
To avoid excessive loss of resources they made an Armistice: they will stop if Gondor cease to them all the already conquered lands.

Year 15-16: Cheliax rules it’s domains in Middle-Earth with Iron Fist and gains the complete control of the breach. Enriching both from new dominion earns and the monopoly of commerce.
Other Avistani Nations express concerns and try to find a way to change the situation without a declared war against Cheliax.
Cheliax declare itself
Empire of Cheliax.
Gold continue to flow from Arda to Avistan.
Cheliax limits weapon and offensive magic items import to Arda.
Erebor, with is reserves of more than one billion golden coins is barely scratched by the purchasing of Avistan goods and finally dwarves find a way to give away gold without causing monster inflation in middle Earth.
Cheliax economy is booming.
All Avistan economy enters in a flourishing phase.
First non-militar colonizers goes in dribs and drabs to conquered Eriador

Year 17: a grey fleet from east comes silently in a misty night in the port of the occupied elven city of Grey Eavens.
An army of 10 thousand irate and terrible in their beauty elves, with enlightened faces graven by shadows, attacks and destroys the Chelish fleet anchored in the port. Vane is the resistance of the unprepared Chelish garrison; the elves shine of an ancient power and are strong in arms and in magic; and to lead them are two creatures with the power of demigods. The five thousand man are defeated.

The hundred survivor is send back to the breach as testimonies of the elven power.
The army send by the Varda, leaded by two powerful Ainur secures the city and the countryside. Than starts marching in the interior.
They agree with sufficiency to permit dwarves and man of Eriador to join them.
Old Peregrin Tuck and Merry Brandibuck organized a riot in the Shire.

Year 18. One victory after the other the norhern part of Eriador is freed.

Year 19. Cheliax sends 20 thousand men to Middle-Earth.
Gondor decides to broke the Armistice with Cheliax and join the stressed elven army, attacking the southern domains of Cheliax, from the other side.
War reaches its height of causalities, with three important battles.

Year 20. A little group of Andorans manages to force the naval blockage and send magic items and weapons to the Gondor army.

Year 21. Abrogail negotiates a new armistice with Gondor and Elves.
The breach will be under the shared control of Cheliax and Gondor and Elves. Cheliax is the sole nation that can allow other Avistani nations to pass the breach. Elves and Gondorians have the same power on their side of the breach.
Gondor definitively ceases the territory of the estuary of the Greyflow to Cheliax to be colonized. All the other territories are given back to Gondor.
All ships passing from Golarion to Arda has to firstly go to Grey Heavens for a check.

Year 22. The Deal is done.
Part of the elves and one of those Ainur goes back to immortal land. Part remains in Grey Heavens.

Year 23. Gondor and Elves purchased a coastal area in Varisia from Magnimar and founds an indipendent city Elendil; for Gondorian merchants and to seat a council with the task of studying this New World and its Magic. This council is presiede by the Ainur Gandalf.

Year 24-33. Great part of Middle Earth is continuously becoming poorer and poorer due to continuous commercial flow.
Gondor is more or less in equilibrium thanks to its commercial inputs. The Shire thanks to its exports of tobacco (north decuman is restored) and elves due to its art craft exports. Middle Earth Dwarven works are progressively more appreciated; but other countries; Roan, Harad, Humbar, Mordor, Esterlings and the Eastern Nations are now spending all their wealth to purchase goods from Golarion. Gondor and the lone mountain hires Avistani mercenaries and magicians.
Erebor is still the reachest market to conquer.
Abrogalia, the Chelish colony now has hundred of thousand inhabitants and is booming, both for merchants and a farming economy.
Grey Heavens is now a major port. An Ainur makes it safe.
Cheliax treasure is now rich in a way that worries a lot other Avistani nations. For tho reasons they try to sell their goods in Elendil, trying make them enter into Arda trough Gondorian ships; to diminish the trade incomes of Cheliax. Elendil is the fastest growing city in Golarion.

Gondor erudites are now more at ease with Avistani magic techniques.
Magic becomes more common in Middle Earth (but not as in Golarion)

The Elendil Council is doing great.

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*Middle Earth is the movies one. With all the things that are in the Tolkien’s books; as not mentioned but still compatible with the films’ setting

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While I was writing my post about Kingsmaker athmosphere, my Imagination starts running: what would happen in the following case: The World’s Anchor opens a passage one hundred miles wide in the Ocean. Traveling west from Beriland, after 100 miles far into the sea (if you pass trough the Portal) you start going East towards Chelish norhern and Nidal southern Azlanti coast; after 50 miles of open water in with the world mixes. At the same way traveling West from Cheliax and Nidal, after 100 miles you go into the mixing portion and, then, you start sailing towards East and Beriland coast.

It happens 50 years after Aragorn Becomes King and in 4718. (Supposing nothing dramatic happens in Rise of Runelords or Winter Reign). In this line we not consider Starfinder.

Realistically what would happen?

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Anyone has got some personal inspiration to address to render the athmosphere in Southern Brevoy? I mean in case pg of Kingsmaker (still at low levels) travels through it.
Any material from Paizo (a part from the Inner Sea Atlas and Kingsmaker handbook) or personal inspiration from films; history or novels.

Cause, till now, I’m figuring the Wilder places similar to Lone Lands in Middle Earth, Eriador. Frontier towns similar to a “medioeval far west”; countryside similar to English/Shire and Cities as a mix of Norhern Europe/ Games of Thrones and some little inspiration to Wow.

I’m picturing folks houses as stone ones with green roofs; similar to Irish or Icelandic medioeval ones. While castles much more influenced by Taldan style. So much more Gondor/ Italian style. I’m putting even a bit of Galt style. With exiled colored roofs.

I’m inserting even some small village and inventing minor noble houses. I’m depicting in a very detailed and cinematic way landscapes and societies while pg are traveling (of four Pg one is Brevan and the other one Issian; so the place has to be quite familiar for them; but quite descriptive and new for the other two pgs)

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*in option n^ 2 obviously Dwarfs declares people Thorbrandin subjects, and not Korvosan ones.


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So, I ask to everyone what of the following scenarios for you is more likely (and why):

[The key factor is the time that passes from the notice Goes to nearest kingdoms to the time they tries to do something]

-AFTer one year of time in which just adventurers passes through the portal, Korvosa assumes a lot of debts with Druman Banks, marches toward the mountains, take under his control Varisian mountains, passes the fracture, kicks away or declares as Korvosan subjects the people around it, take under control much of Karolis mountains, the devasted Qualinest and part of the Abanasinia plains. Starts sending colonizers, founds two twin great cities near the Gate; and, most lucrative thing, controls all the trade and movements through the two worlds and (probably) Korvosa become a rich and powerful country.

-AFTer one year of time in which just adventurers passes through the portal, Thorbrandin, dig a tunnel to reach the mountains, take under his control Karolhis mountains and than the Varisian mountains near the fracture, passing the fracture, dwarwes kicks away or declares as Korvosan subjects the people around it. Starts sending colonizers, founds two twin great cities near the Gate; and, most lucrative thing, controls all the trade and movements through the two worlds and (probably) Korvosa become a rich and powerful country. Starts a partnership with Janderoff, by digging a tunnel from the portal to the Varisian Dwarven city. Thorbrandin becomes the most rich Nation of all times in Ansalon (by importing Varisian steel) and Janderoff becomes a great player in Avistan politics.

-AFTer one year both Korvosa and Thorbrandin goes to take control of the portal; the eventually start a war that makes very difficult to travel through the fracture.

-AFTer one year Korvosa and Thorbrandin finds an agreement: each Nation will control his side of the portal.

-TWo years passes; than, the most powerful good Nations of Krynn agree to found a commission for Golarion Affair. They found a big city in Kharolis Mountain called “Mission”.
They found even a city in Varisian mountains called Paladine (as the recently defunct god) to ensure no nation on Golarion side limits travel through the fracture. New cities has both Krynnish and Golarionese immigrants.
Major cultural and economic reinassance occurres in Krynn.
Lenders and gully dwarfs are encouraged to go to live in the new discovered world with a lot of propaganda on Golarion interesting things (for kenders) and rats (for the gully).
New trade route are established in Golarion to reach the fracture. As a reusult, Magnimar, Korvosa, Janderoff and Nintharmas are all empowered.

What version do you prefere or think will be more likely/interesting? And why?

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So you say there would be a sort of international comitee?

But who leads it?

Abanasinia is quite on itself and there is a lot of political fragmentation in Ansalom.
And, if North Ergoth, Solamnia, Shallsea, Kender Nations, Elves and Dwarwes can find an agreement. I think Andoran Cheliax and Taldor (not to mention Razmiran and Rahadoum or Nintharmas and Molthune) would never start a Cooperation!!! NEVER!!! For no reason!

But I like a lot the idea of an international comitee on Absalonian side.

I think things could go like this; unless:
-On Ansalon side the Dwarwen kingdom of Thorbrandin, witch is quite near and quite powerful tries to take the Territories around the fracture.
-On Golarion side the Kingdom of Korvosa (that is already trying to colonize the region) tries to take control of the fracture and, maybe to colonize some territories around that, on the other side.

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Pizza Lord I adore you!

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And any idea about politic/ economic/ cultural issues?

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And about Magic?

Some idea about how will it work?

I’m thinking about Golarion wizards can’t use the moons Hight Magic, unless they study proper techniques; but maybe they recive a bonus and their spells effects are magnified when is over the orizon the Moon linked to their alignments. But innate arcane spellers entering in Krynn would probably have really really magnified spells effect (because they can use in an intuitive way all the Magic around)
And Krynn wizards going to Golarion can use Magic, just if in Krynn they were able to use natural Magic. But, because of the Natural Magic techniques had been just discovered and still quite rudimental, even a strong wizard would be quite weak in comparison to Golarion Natives. Unless he learn how to.
(At this proposit I think the two communities of wizards will start doing all the possible to learn others type of Magic; in a particular way the Krynn ones; because Natural Magic can be used in both worlds, but Moons Magic is useful just if you are in Krynnspace.
Krynn innate arcane spellers (but it seems to me they are a little minority) probably has initial malus in Golarion, but nothing dramatic.

Someone has different ideas?

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Ok, ok, I don’t mean FALSE gods (such as Razmiran) in Pathfinder grant powers; I mean that if you strongly believe in an Abstract Principe (if you have faith) and you honestly believe it, if a lot of people believe in it in a strong way, that god manifest itself in the Astral Plane, with powers directly proportional to the faith he/se/it recive, and he can give clerical powers to faithful mortals. So a god can exist even if he isn’t “elected god/ created god/ born as a god/ ascended as a god (born from two gods/ Starstone/ killed another god/ ascended in same way).
A god (or god-like power) in Golarion can simply start existing because people believe in it.
While in Dragonlance it is not so.

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What would happen if a permanent portal opens between Golarion and Krynn?
The situation is the following; the portal opens in 4715 in a Golarion and in Krynn when the planet is bring back to his universe right after the War of the Souls.
The portal is situated in the Kharolis mountains in Abanasinia, Ansalon and in Golarion in the mountains between Varisia and Nintharmas, in a lateral little valley not far from Bloodsworn Vale.
The phenomenon interests just the valley bottom; the two valleys are morphological very similar; going from north to south in Kharolis Valley you can enter in the Avistani one, from south to north in the Avistani one, you enter in the Ansalonian one. The time of the day and of the year it's synchronized. The two valleys are so similar that it's very difficult to understand you are not anymore in the world you came from or even that there is something strange or anomalous, just if you are a ranger you quickly understand, unless so, you fell just a little disoriented till you go out of the little valley. Ovviously if the weather conditions are very different it could be a bit strange; and it you pay attention to the night sky...

At the beginning, due to the very remote position of the reality fracture, in the first months, just animals, outlaws and humanoid passes the portal in both directions; but, probably, at the beginning they think they just discovered a new passage in a different zone of the mountains (someone will note the night sky, fell quite uncomfortable, but will take it as an useless philosophical question). The firsts to take seriously the anomaly would be the fairy in Varisian mountains.
When robbers of both mountains starts robbing travelvers from the other side of the valley (expecialy Avistani travelers, due to the fact that almost no traveler passes in Kharolis mountains except outlaws and some guerrilla elf) they started discovering those people are not from any place they know -to make things easier; Common Tongue in Ansalon is quite similar to Taldan for a synchronic quality of the worlds-. Voices started circulating when those people goes out of the mountains to sell the robberies. Adventurers starts coming from both sides of the fracture. With the reports of the adventurers it's the time of merchants and explorers hired by local nobles and, with other time even quite distant kingdoms.

I wander what kind of changes such an event could have for both worlds.

First think to note is that even if in Ansalon they are maybe harsher people, they are less (probably Solamnia, being biggest nation of Ansalon, has the same inhabitants of Andoran -2 or 3 millions Sol and 3 or 4 And-), with less organized societies and less advanced from a technological point of view; they are recovering from Three Apocaliptic Events in the last 3 centuries, plus the great wirms dominion and destabilizations of magic wave, and things like the fact that in Ansalon steel is as valuable as gold, when, for comparison, the not far from city of Janderoff has steel city walls. Biggest city in Avistan is Absalom, with almost half a million inhabitants and another maybe 20 cities that has more than 50 thousand inhabitants; while in Absalom there is ... None. With Just the Dwarven city of Thoradin, and human Panthalas and North Ergoth Capital and a few other touching 30thousand.
The unic things in witch there is a fair play it's Hight Magic and Clerical magic.

But I don't think there will be an Avistani invasion, due to the fact that the fracture it's quite far from the most militaristic and powerful nations of Avistan (Cheliax, Molthune, Taldor, etc...)
I don't exclude Korvosa or others colonizing portions of Abanabasia, but... not a lot more, for many years, anyway.

My wonders are more about the cultural and economical divergences, let's say, in...20, 30 years. We will see a lot of economic ferment in Abanabasia and than, what?
Great empowerment of Korvosa, of Nintharmas? Molthune invading Nintharmas to reach the portal?
What kind of cultural innovations?

Another 2 themes:

In Golarion Verse, even a "false" god grant power to followers, because he incarnates in the astral plane. In Krynn only the true gods gives powers.
So, when an Avistani cleric goes to Krynn, what happens? If he follow just a "philosophical ideal as a god", I think he has no powers, but, maybe, if he follow a "real person god", let's say Desna, does he have powers? Or Krynn gods had put a sort of barrier preventing other gods of the D&d/ pathfinder Multiverse powers to filter in Krynn universe? (I tend to think second option more logical)
(Krynn clerics, I think, mantein their powers going to Golarion)

Magic: in Krynn are the 3 moons that gives to the world the Hight Magic. Otherwise there is just Natural Chaotic Magic, a weaker and more difficult force.
Golarion magic is Natural Magic or it is something else?
(I think they are the same because of the ley lines system description.)
Because, if it is the same, Krynn Mages are much more strong on the Krynn planet, but very weak going to Golarion. Can Golarion sorcerers use the Moons magic going to Krynn, or they have to learn how to use the power they give? Because, I think, using the Moons power they'll become much more powerful.
(But I think techniques of Moon's Magic and Natural Magic are totally different -as Palin experience shows-)
And can Golarion sorcerers teach Krynn ones how to use Natural Magic in a more effective way?

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So, Zhangar, you strongly suggest not to make the PCs involved in any major conflict?
(I write now, because, you know, going ahead in the campaign new ideas come to my mind)
But do you have any suggestion to make necessary for them to travel out of Siberia?
(I think it could be quite interesting to see Earth from a Golarionan point of view)
And to do it without great changes in world history?

Good Idea The Chtulu dreams being the reason why magic it's so difficult on Earth. Very COOL! My compliments!
This could be a major theme if they leave the "safe" Thrice-Tenth Kingdom influenced zone, for sorcerers. Even divine powers have the same problem?
What kind of mission may I assign them to travel abroad? Something that can decide to do or not to do, having assumed they received the warning by the Coffin Man)
(I was thinking good options where to send them could be; eastern front in the Great War, or Cairo in Egypt, or Venice-Milan-Florence, or Moscow-Saint Petersburg aro recover some kind of relic, or New England to meet Lovecraft)

I also imagine your Earth isn't our Earth, but a Chtulu darker version of our, isn't it?

And, as I asked, your Earth is in the same Universe ("Material Prime Plane") of Golarion as they suggested in the handbook, or in a different one? Or maybe in another Multiverse (different physic laws, magic isn't the same)

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I remember twice a day PC have to poo and piss, if they don't do so I give them malus or maybe they are not feeling good during a fight.
I describe quite often the conditions of clothes and garments, specially when they travel through the bush or when they are hit by swords and similar.
I describe even the conditions of hairs and beard and the dirty with the passing of the days.
I try to imagin all the little things. Without exaggerating (many things in a PC day are done without describing explictely, unless you want to play every single second).
I love realism.
Personally I'll suggest you to be as more realistic as you can.
With descriptions and suggesting for things PC has to do.
Remember them they stink, their beard is growing, their shoes are consumed. Do it if you can.

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And, ya, I suggest they may speak Aquan just if they have it on theirs known languages or if they have access to languages spells.

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You can emit sounds underwater. You can even hear sounds underwater. You can speak underwater, but than your lungs are filled with water and so you die drowned. So, as rule, I'll suggest you that your PC can speak underwater if, for any reason, they can breath underwater; or if they can mentally communicate. Unless this I'll say an air-breathing creature can speak or shout for max 2-3 rounds if he takes a long breath before immersing his head in water, but every time he risks to make water going in hos lungs. Not a simple way to speake. I see no limitations in write in Aquan underwater

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Has your Wizard some particular interest, hobby or accademic study that focus his energies or justify a lot of magic, time and resources investment?

He still works to sell his creations or keeps politic contacts or is totally out of the games?

Does he prefer to create magic items or is he focalized at doing spells and rituals?

If u answer this, Senko, maybe I can try to imagine it.

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2 people marked this as a favorite.

Mister socks, this is a confirm to my thesis (unless you say it's an exception).

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*vostra was viagra

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What a question!

Goblins are like snakes for my Dwarw living in Sandpoint.

Being serious, animals are all edible?

Many of them, some definitively not. A lot have an horrible taste. But different cultures eats things you may think disgusting. In Sicily boiled snails are considered very good. Fried frogs are a traditional plat in Milan, once I've eaten a live kind of crab (Moleca) witch is so deliticious they costs 80$ per kilo. In Asia they eat dogs, in south-east Asia beetles, in Africa rats, and so on...
If they are not poisonous you can eat them (maybe ven poisonous one if you remove poisonous organs: such as for snakes in China or ball fishs)
I may not eat undeath. Buuuuut maybe, if you are starving and you boil zombie meat for 12 hours you can eat it.
If your players have such an habit play with it, invent something funny when they eat strange things: they have eaten a fury Draco liver, torment them with visions but maybe give them barbarian anger, they eaten centaur balls... ok, kinda red bull and vostra togheter.
Do not forget that if you eat magic creatures you eat even the magic stored in their living tissues. If they do it often, this may affect the PC descendants in many good or bad ways, or maybe it can be manifested even in the PC after some year or month, maybe he'll suffer some magical disease or acquire some kinda power.

Liberty's Edge

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A great writer had said more or less :

"Sky may be green and clouds violet, but it's real."

If I simply try things to make sense I think is not about the lack of good wine (living in Italy it's not a problem).

Liberty's Edge

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Are u saying I'm too serious? XD

Liberty's Edge

As a master I would like to do such experiment with my players.
An adventure with no predeterminated plot to follow. In which I decide just what events happens around the PC if they doesn't nothing to change the course of events.
An adventure in which every player can decide what to do with it's character. (He wants to spend time in a drug parlor? To work as the castellan factotum? To make a family and build a wooden home? To go to hunt bandits in the forest? To have a carrieer in his village? To travel all over the world? Everything's ok)
Consider that it's not necessary all the PC are togheter all times; we can play separate rounds if they decide to do different things. Ovviously I would like to avoid one is planting trees and growing a family in a village in Andorran and te other killing slavers in Katapesh from ten years.
I would like to make them start as commoners and to make them take new class level gradually, so not leveling up in the classic way, but gradually: when they do something I decide what bonus of the next level they can get.

Consider that a player loves a lot politic intrigues and the rolistic part of game; another interpretation, doing funny or silly things and fightings, the other one rules and fighting.
Consider I'm quite expert as a master and very good in setting creations and improvisation.
(I've already consider to give them some capabilities and background congruences with the classes they'll say me they will like to play)
I would like to set in Avistan, maybe to start in Andoran or a River Kingdoms.
I would like it to be a very long adventure, slowly leveling up, contemporary playing and mastering others.
Thanks a lot to everyone

Liberty's Edge

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May I point out a SCIENTIFIC consideration?
What basically your parents give you is not the matter of your body, but your Genetic Traits.
This is partially true for your mother, because the mass that you have when you born (4-5kg) comes from the nutrients your mother pass you when she is pregnant. But your father... a part from genetic informations, he gives you just the matter present in the spermatozoon that fertilizes the ovum. So, unless your summoned father disappear before the first 3-4 cells are formed (so in 2-3 days from the sexual act, I think), no parts of your physical body will disappear (in a moment I go to the soul).
If your mother is the summoned there are a lot of troubles; and, if it's true that remarkable amounts of your body's matter in your cells are there since your mother was pregnant, I imagine she is going to eat something during the pregnancy and, unless she eats just other summoned creatures, the matter she introduces in her and in your body is real.
So, if your mother is summoned, probabily you have a small amount of matter that is going to disappear with her. That probably will kill you if you are a baby and not if you are an adult, even due to gradually replacement of your body's matter, but probably you will be seriously ill, maybe deadly, and you will need some magic cure.
PHILOSOPHICALLY Going to speak about the soul I don't think soul is something you inherit from your parents, as some Ancient Greek philosopher theorized (someone used to said soul is inherited from father, some other from mother, some other that is something some of your organ produces or that enters in your body from the mouth). To me this theories seems absurds because soul is something immaterial or maybe is a world to indicate certain qualities of a subject. So, if we presume the existence of a soul as appears in d&d/pathfinder universe, we must consider it such as "an immaterial quality that the conformation of the simmetries in your body's matter makes to come to the existence", so you will have an immortal soul, but maybe gods decides to treat you in a different way after you die. I cannot contest gods wisdom.

If both your parents are summoned creatures...
For your body It's the same as if just your mother was summoned.
For the soul it's a controverse question. Maybe nothing can come from nothing, so you not have one even if you are still thinking while biologically living. Maybe the real matter that makes up your body gives you one. Maybe you born without a soul but certain mental status or actions or determinations of free will or divine interventions or miracles or desire spell can give it to you. Or maybe you have it.
I think in this case logic permits multiple answers, all them possible.

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