The idea is to craft magic items using scrolls. He has a big book of scrolls that is kept in a Glove-O-Storing. He doesn't consume scrolls, so he just reuses them over and over, reading them out of his book. He gets all sorts of bonuses from his archetype and Bloodline to help him out.
Does this work the way I want it to?
What else does he need?
Old Age Half-Orc
False Priest Sorcerer
Impossible Bloodline
Traits:
Spark of Creation
Holy Tattoo
Feats:
1(bonus). False Focus
1. Magical Aptitude
3(bonus). Craft Wondrous Item
3. Brew Potion
5. Craft Wand
7(bonus). Craft Magic Arms & Armor
7. Forge Ring
9. Cooperative Crafting
11. Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
13(bonus).Craft Construct
13. Skill Focus (craft)???
15. Skill Focus (craft)???
17. Skill Focus (craft)???
19(bonus). Skill Focus (Know: Engineering)
19. Skill Focus (craft)???
Noteworthy Abilities:
False Piety (Ex)
At 1st level, He adds half his sorcerer level to Use Magic Device checks to activate spell trigger and spell completion items that use divine spells. He gains False Focus as a bonus feat.
False Focus (yay, Holy Tattoo trait!)
Benefit: By using a divine focus as part of casting, you can cast any spell with a material component costing the value of that divine focus (maximum 100 gp) or less without needing that component. For example, if you use a silver holy symbol worth 25 gp, you do not have to provide material components for an arcane spell if its components are worth 25 gp or less. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than the value of the divine focus, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal.
Holy Symbol, Tattoo
In some religions, you are allowed to tattoo or brand your deity’s holy symbol onto your skin (typically the palm, back of the hand, or forearm) in a special ceremony. Thereafter, it functions like an actual holy symbol of your faith, and you may use it as a divine focus for spellcasting, channeling energy, and so on. The tattoo must be fully visible to use it in this way (it cannot be covered with a glove, gauntlet, or any other material). The listed price includes the cost of a simple brand or non-fading black tattoo; add appropriate tattoo costs if you want something more elaborate. Specifically damaging or erasing the tattoo or brand negates its use as an actual holy symbol. Price 100 gp; Weight —
False Channel (Su)
At 9th level, the false priest can use his own magic to power spell completion and spell trigger items that use divine spells. He expends a sorcerer spell slot that is at least 1 level higher than the level of the spell he’s trying to activate, then makes a Use Magic Device check. If he succeeds, the item’s spell occurs and the item or charge is not expended. If he fails, nothing happens. Whether he succeeds or fail, his spell slot is expended.
Impossible Bloodline
Bonus Feats: Craft Construct, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Deft Hands, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Far Shot, Iron Will, Point-Blank Shot, Skill Focus (Knowledge [engineering]).
Spontaneous Generation: At 3rd level, you gain Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat. In addition, when you craft a magic item (except a potion, a spell-trigger item, or a spell-completion item), you may ignore one spell prerequisite without increasing the creation DC. You can ignore an additional spell prerequisite at 9th, 15th, and 20th levels.
This character never actually gets any better at using those scrolls than anyone else; it might be worth going into the cyphermage PrC at some point, perhaps after L9. Maybe get the cypher magic feat (prereq for the PrC) in place of brew potion?
He still has to buy the Divine scrolls, and expend his own spell slots to use the scrolls without consuming them... I don't see any way for a GM to not allow it unless they're just being difficult on purpose.
I figured Brew Potion was better than Scribe Scroll because everyone can use potions, not everyone can use scrolls.
But it's good to know that I don't need the Skill Focus (craft) feats. I will remove them.
This character never actually gets any better at using those scrolls than anyone else; it might be worth going into the cyphermage PrC at some point, perhaps after L9. Maybe get the cypher magic feat (prereq for the PrC) in place of brew potion?
I will look into the CypherMage.
Can you please explain to me why he isn't any better at using the scrolls than anyone else?
I was under the impression that not consuming them would be a pretty big plus.
Sure. The save DC is set by the scroll and is terrible, the caster level doesn't need to be terrible but is also set by the scroll. Reusing them using your spell slots is nice but contributes nothing to the maximum effect of your character in any given round.
Having the perfect spell is great but if it happens to have a save DC of 14 because it's a 3rd level spell (using one of your 4th level spell slots) maybe it's not perfect.
Thanks for the feedback.
Speaking of obscure crafting feats, what is a poppet?
I know what a poppet valve is (like in a paintball marker), but not the little doll thing that the feats seems to be referring to.
Thanks for the feedback.
Speaking of obscure crafting feats, what is a poppet?
I know what a poppet valve is (like in a paintball marker), but not the little doll thing that the feats seems to be referring to.
These are poppets. They were little more than children's toys, but are sometimes associated with witchcraft in folk lore.
Ok, redid the feats. Haven't looked at the PrC, yet, though. The feats towards the end are pretty irrelevant, honestly, but whatever. This is just the Kingdom's Engineer/Blacksmith/Crafter.
Old Age Half-Orc
False Priest Sorcerer
Impossible Bloodline
Traits:
Spark of Creation
Holy Tattoo
Feats:
1(bonus). False Focus
1. Magical Aptitude
3(bonus). Craft Wondrous Item
3. Scribe Scroll
5. Craft Wand
7(bonus). Craft Magic Arms & Armor
7. Forge Ring
9. Craft Rod
11. Craft Staff
13(bonus).Craft Construct
13. Leadership
15. Cooperative Crafting
17. Skill Focus (Sellcraft)
19(bonus). Skill Focus (Know:Engineer)
19. Skill Focus (UMD)
By the by, three levels of Pathfinder savant let you use your own caster level for scrolls. You'd probably want Prestigious Spellcaster to make up the lost caster level, though, and your bloodline would fall behind. You'd get a couple of cross-class spells for your trouble, though. You could even pick cure spells just to further the false priest narrative.
By the by, three levels of Pathfinder savant let you use your own caster level for scrolls. You'd probably want Prestigious Spellcaster to make up the lost caster level, though, and your bloodline would fall behind. You'd get a couple of cross-class spells for your trouble, though. You could even pick cure spells just to further the false priest narrative.
Thanks for showing me this.
Honestly, that Prestige Class is worth taking in its entirety for this guy... the Impossible Bloodline is only being used for its 3rd level ability, and False Priest is done at level 9.
I think it is better suited than the CypherMage, despite losing a level of spellcasting... which can be made up for with a couple feats.
False Priest (Impossible)-10/Pathfinder Savant-10
I would lose the bonus feats at 13 & 19, but oh well.
Magic crafting does not require you to cast the spell. You must have it prepared, have it as a spell known, or supply it in another way (such as via a magic item like a scroll). Your ability of False Channel does not make the scroll into a spell known or prepared. Thus, you will consume the scroll. Mnemonic Vestments have the same problem. Pages of spell knowledge work just fine.
/cevah
I would also look into giving this character the Voices of Solid Things (Spellcraft) trait. Having Spellcraft checks based on Cha rather than Int is a big boost for a sorcerer who crafts items. You could also take Magical Aptitude in place of on of the Skill Focus (Craft) feats as Spellcraft is one of the skills that this feat boosts.
As soon as possible, you should construct items that boost your charisma and/or your Spellcraft checks. The basic idea is to get your Spellcraft check as high as possible.
You can also bypass many item crafting requirements by adding +5 to the DC per bypassed requirement -- that is one reason that you want your Spellcraft bonus to be as high as possible, along with being able to speed up your crafting if you can get the bonus high enough.
Another option to consider is acquiring a familiar with the Valet archetype, as it gives you the benefits of the Cooperative Crafting feat without you having to worry about whether your partner is picking up all of the right feats and skills. The best way to get that is to take the Skill Focus (Knowledge (whatever)) and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) feats.
Digging this back up for some final opinions before I wrap him up to be put into my Legacy NPC's archive to possibly be used in more campaigns yet to come.
I didn't see a point in giving him a 10th level of Sorcerer, which would get him nothing, when he could dip into Cyphermage to scribe twice as many scrolls in a day. AND still maintain spell progression.
There are some feats that can be changed and swapped around, too. I'm not sure if he needs anything like Improved Familiar to pull off the crafting team thing. He could probably still benefit from Leadership and Cooperative Crafting.
I have him as an old Half-Orc, but any age/race/gender will probably work...
Meet Hepha (named after Hephaestus, from Greek mythology):
Crossblooded-False Priest Sorcerer-9/
Cyphermage-1/
Pathfinder Savant-10
Traits:
... Contract Master (Religion)
... Spark of Creation (Magic)
... Voices of Solid Things (Regional)
... xxx (Drawback)
***Sorcerer***
1. Cantrips
1. Spells
1. Bloodline
... Arcane
... Impossible
1. Bloodline Power
... Arcane Bond: Valet Familiar
1(class): False Focus
1(level): Magical Aptitude
2. --
3. Bloodline Power
... Spontaneous Generation
3. Lay Healer
... Aid
3(class): Craft Wondrous Item
3(level): Scribe Scroll
... retrain to Cypher Magic @ level 7
4. --
5. Lay Healer
... Remove Disease
5(level): Craft Magic Arms and Armor
6. --
7. Bloodline Spell
... Shrink Item
7(bloodline): Scribe Scroll
7(level): Forge Ring
8. --
9. False Channel
9. Bloodline Spell
... Dimension Door
9(level): Craft Wand
***Cyphermage***
10. Cypher Lore
... Swift Scrivener
***Pathfinder Savant ***
11. Adept Activation
11. Master Scholar
11(level): Craft Rod
12. Esoteric Magic
12. Glyph-Finding
13. Scroll Master
13(level): Craft Staff
14. Quick Identification
15. Sigil Master
15(level): Craft Construct?
16. Analyze Dweomer
16. Silence Master
17. Dispelling Master
17(level): Expanded Arcana?
18. Symbol Master
19. Spellcasting Master
19(level): Expanded Arcana?
20. Item Master
I think I would have to switch out the
Contract Master trait, because I don't need it for Linguistics... Cyphermage has to wait until after 5 levels of Pathfinder Savant. The skill prerequisites for Cyphermage dictate that at least 5 levels of Pathfinder Savant come first.
So cool, move Cyphermage-1 to level 15, and pick a new trait to replace Contract Master, or drop Contract Master and the Drawback.
Any other obvious changes need to be made?
Interesting.
I think that anyone who goes through the effort to get into Loremaster deserves to be able to use Secret to Magical Discipline to craft whatever they want. That's a trick only available to 9th level Wizard/Loremasters, 8th at the earliest (with retraining a feat for Secret of Magical Discipline). Even if they only do a one level dip, it seems that they have well-earned the ability to craft anything with Secret of Magical Discipline.
The crafting/item creation system is already so broken, it's not like Secret of Magical Discipline is going to push it any further over the top than it already is. Same for crafting from scrolls in general, given that you would burn a scroll every time you made your crafting check unless you had Mnenomic Vestments or an ability like False Channel. I feel that way about crafting with Shadow Conjuration, too, or Paragon Surge and Expanded Arcana.
The generic Wizard is just as broken. Being told "No" for the first time at level 9, especially after making sure to meet the requirements to get into Loremaster in the first place... and now they reach an obstacle they don't have the answer for? This is what the rules finally deny the almighty Wizard?
Anyways, it looks like Hepha is going to need Leadership and Cooperative Crafting for a Wizard apprenticeship/Cohort in order to actually be the blacksmith I want him to be. Of course a Wizard is the answer. Wizard is ALWAYS the answer in PF1.
Anyways, it looks like Hepha is going to need Leadership and Cooperative Crafting for a Wizard apprenticeship/Cohort in order to actually be the blacksmith I want him to be. Of course a Wizard is the answer. Wizard is ALWAYS the answer in PF1.
Instead of leadership take the recruit feat you can have up to 10 cohort of 4 level below of you,so you can have a group of spellcaster of different class to help you to create items
Oh wow. That's perfect. Thanks.
Hepha started a guild that grew into an academy over the course of the campaign, so it is fitting to have multiple apprentices representing crafters from various classes.
That's a trick only available to 9th level Wizard/Loremasters, 8th at the earliest (with retraining a feat for Secret of Magical Discipline). Even if they only do a one level dip, it seems that they have well-earned the ability to craft anything with Secret of Magical Discipline.Why the wizard obsession? I'm playing a Druid and I dipped 1 level into Loremaster so I could cast remedy spells that druids don't naturally have access to. There is no reason a sorcerer couldn't spend ranks on the skills needed to become a Loremaster. Heck, create a headband that has the needed skills, spend no ranks to become a Loremaster (and get massively nerfed if any PC steals the headband).
It's better to be wizard or arcanist for crafting so you can get 2 important discovery
Yuelral blessings and staff like wand and you don't need the prestige class of Loremaster, that prestige class I see better for investigation or spell research
I knew that the Sorcerer wasn't going to be the best crafter, but I wanted to see if it was possible.
I built this character thinking that you can craft with scrolls, but you cannot... so it's a failure. The character is really good at using scrolls, but it doesn't matter for someone who is supposed to be a crafter.
Good thing he has all those crafting feats so he can at least contribute to Cooperative Crafting with his Recruits.
Sorry to waste everyone's time with this.
Magic crafting does not require you to cast the spell. You must have it prepared, have it as a spell known, or supply it in another way (such as via a magic item like a scroll). Your ability of False Channel does not make the scroll into a spell known or prepared. Thus, you will consume the scroll. Mnemonic Vestments have the same problem. Pages of spell knowledge work just fine.
/cevah
I know this is old, but most of this seems wrong to me.
----
CRB FAQ:
Crafting and Spell Requirements: When crafting an item, can an arcane caster use a divine scroll to fulfill an item's divine spell requirement?
Yes. (Likewise, a divine caster could use an arcane scroll to fulfill an item's arcane spell requirement.)
However, the character has to be able to activate the scroll somehow as part of the crafting process. This probably requires the arcane caster to succeed at a Use Magic Device check to activate the divine spell. If the caster fails to cast the divine spell from the scroll, he makes no progress on the item that day unless he has another source for that divine spell (such as another copy of the scroll).
Furthermore, CRB FAQ again:
Spell-Like Abilities and Item Crafting: Can I use a spell-like ability for an item's spell requirement?
Yes. Core Rulebook page 461, Requirements section, paragraph 2 says, "A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect."
For example, a demon with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and who has fireball as a spell-like ability can craft a +1 flaming sword, which has fireball as a prerequisite.
Therefore, we must conclude that if you want to meet (instead of +5) a prerequisite, we are actually casting the effect, with the crafting modifying the cast. You hopefully aren't firing a disintegrate ray at your magic item that has a disintegrate requirement - unless the result you're hoping for is a pile of dusted material. :P
So what can we do with this?
1. We can scroll the spell, as noted in the FAQ.
2. Since the Razmiran / False Channel protects scrolls from consumption when used, it doesn't change the fact that we can scroll the spell; in fact, we can scroll the spell and KEEP the scroll for repeated use during the crafting process!
2b. "You use the spell/item over the progress of the day" doesn't matter. Razmiran Channel imbues the scroll with the power of a spell slot. Even if we accept this idea of crafting causing spells to long-channel (something seeming contradicted by how craft-during-adventure works,) something IS being consumed over that time.
For the Priest, it's that spell slot.
3. The mnemonic vestment lets you tap into on-hand written spells once a day, casting one of them as though it were a spell known. Since we only care about a casting happening, the vestment is fine.
4. Similarly, the Secret of Magical Discipline works as expected.
5. Page of spell knowledge is fine. (Just... make a house-rule or table's honour decision to NOT exploit the ability to fetch any spell in the game with a DC 27 crafting of this item.)
So your build seems to work as you want it.
I figured you could craft from scrolls, especially someone who has False Channel... the magic is still being spent, or whatever, in the form of a spell slot. Exactly like everyone else.
And everything he cannot find a scroll of, or cast himself, he can ignore. The Impossible Bloodline Power allows him to ignore up to two prerequisites without incurring the +10 penalty to the check. I assume that the Bloodline Power stops progressing after you leave the class. Otherwise he can ignore even more prerequisites without penalty.
That has to be worth something to a crafter, right?
Anyways, I'm glad to see that it's not a total flop. He has worked well as the kingdom crafter, thusfar. Lol. I actually stopped building him after he got all the crafting feats, because he is just a background NPC making magical items for an imaginary kingdom in a fantasy game. Lol.
I am glad to finally finish his build and make use of those prestige classes. If nothing else, I like learning more about spellcasting classes, since I have very little experience with playing them. As a GM, I need to know the basics of crafting in Pathfinder, and the more I learn about spells in general, the better.
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Magic crafting does not require you to cast the spell. You must have it prepared, have it as a spell known, or supply it in another way (such as via a magic item like a scroll). Your ability of False Channel does not make the scroll into a spell known or prepared. Thus, you will consume the scroll. Mnemonic Vestments have the same problem. Pages of spell knowledge work just fine.I know this is old, but most of this seems wrong to me.
----
Crafting and Spell Requirements: When crafting an item, can an arcane caster use a divine scroll to fulfill an item's divine spell requirement?
Yes. (Likewise, a divine caster could use an arcane scroll to fulfill an item's arcane spell requirement.)
However, the character has to be able to activate the scroll somehow as part of the crafting process. This probably requires the arcane caster to succeed at a Use Magic Device check to activate the divine spell. If the caster fails to cast the divine spell from the scroll, he makes no progress on the item that day unless he has another source for that divine spell (such as another copy of the scroll).Furthermore, CRB FAQ again:
Therefore, we must conclude that if you want to meet (instead of +5) a prerequisite, we are actually casting the effect, with the crafting modifying the cast. You hopefully aren't firing a disintegrate ray at your magic item that has a disintegrate requirement - unless the result you're hoping for is a pile of dusted material. :PSpell-Like Abilities and Item Crafting: Can I use a spell-like ability for an item's spell requirement?
Yes. Core Rulebook page 461, Requirements section, paragraph 2 says, "A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect."
For example, a demon with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and who has fireball as a spell-like ability can craft a +1 flaming sword, which has fireball as a prerequisite.
Linkified the FAQs
Let's say I wanted to make a Tome of Clear Thought +5. It needs a Wish or Miracle. Price: 137,500 gp; Cost: 131,250 gp. Standard craft time: 7 days. If I must cast Wish each day, I spend 175,000 gp in components in addition to the 125,000 gp for the tome. Clearly, I do not do this.
This makes the statement in the FAQ crazy: "However, the character has to be able to activate the scroll somehow as part of the crafting process." I don't cast the spell so why do I have to activate the scroll? I do use up the magic either way, but there is no justification for activation.
/cevah
The best part of being the GM is that ultimately, I can make a command decision on the matter. The FAQ is just as misleading as the rest of the crafting rules.
"I am The DECIDER!"
-Roger. [American Dad]
And I am going to just go ahead and side with Cevah on this, and rule that at my table crafting would require you to be able to actually activate the scroll, but you are not doing so as part of the crafting process. If you have to use UMD to use a scroll, make your UMD check with your crafting check.
Success? Good. You craft stuff.
Failure? Bummer. You cannot access the scroll today, you will have to raise the DC of the crafting check by 5. Good luck, and may the force be with you.
It's probably not even that big of a deal for a dedicated crafter to just deal with the raised DC. But it's worth a UMD check to see if you can access the scroll to keep the DC down.
Truth be told, I generally leave the downtime crap up to the players. Anytime past level 3, I pretty much assume that you are capable of succeeding at most such checks anyways. The players know how much money their characters have, they know what is available to purchase, and they know how long it takes to craft things or get things crafted for them.
Every time I look at the crafting rules, my brain starts to bleed, and I get inexplicably angry... so yeah, it's there, I just don't want to deal with it.
I have been blessed with a table of actual people who like to play the game... not a bunch of abusive murderhobo @$$holes that go out of their way to take advantage of me. So I trust that they will maintain some semblance of honesty and the game goes on.
If you are using a scroll as a wizard using a scroll at too high a CL, you would open yourself up to mishaps with a required activation.
/cevah
Let's say I wanted to make a Tome of Clear Thought +5. It needs a Wish or Miracle. Price: 137,500 gp; Cost: 131,250 gp. Standard craft time: 7 days. If I must cast Wish each day, I spend 175,000 gp in components in addition to the 125,000 gp for the tome. Clearly, I do not do this.
This makes the statement in the FAQ crazy: "However, the character has to be able to activate the scroll somehow as part of the crafting process." I don't cast the spell so why do I have to activate the scroll? I do use up the magic either way, but there is no justification for activation.
The 125k can't be the tome, or else its cost would be reducible as with every other wondrous item. It has to be an exceptional case, caused by the fact that the value of inherent bonuses is indexed to "can't be less than it costs to chain-cast Wish."
That aside... now you have me thinking. And I'm going to over-think things. Don't mind me though.
Hepha is a Sorcerer and cannot just add spells to books, and then add more books to hold more spells. So it is very likely that Hepha will encounter item creation requirement spells he does not know. This is why he has False Channel and the Impossible Bloodline.
Hepha is not just making scrolls with scrolls.
Hepha is good at making scrolls, but it is not the only thing he does. Scrolls are simply a source of steady income for him. Hepha runs a business, after all.
Let's say I wanted to make a Tome of Clear Thought +5. It needs a Wish or Miracle. Price: 137,500 gp; Cost: 131,250 gp. Standard craft time: 7 days. If I must cast Wish each day, I spend 175,000 gp in components in addition to the 125,000 gp for the tome. Clearly, I do not do this.Any item where you need to use a Wish (or Miracle) to make it is a bad example. Why? Because you'd just cast Wish instead and Wish for the item you want to craft.
Most GMs would just change you the creation cost of the item. Even if they changed market price, it isn't that different considering that most of the creation cost is the material components.
The big problem with the character Void described was using scrolls to craft scrolls... You use up 1 scroll to produce 1 scroll of the same item. Or worse, you use up multiple scrolls to produce 1 scroll of the same spell in the case the market price of the scroll goes over what you can craft in a day.
Wish is a good example, and was chosen for its familiarity.
If I chose True Resurrection, it also has the 25,000 gp component. An item of one use would be Price: 3,060+25,000; Cost: 1,520+25,000; Crafting time 4 days. If I have to cast it each day, there is 100,000 gp spent in addition to the 25,000 component needed for the item.
The spell Judgment Undone has a 50,000 gp component.
The spell False Resurrection, Greater has a 25,000 gp component.
All four spells are 9th level, so have the base 3,060(1,520) gp magic value and 4 day for a single use.
I also miscalculated the crafting time. It should have been 13 days for that tome with a higher casting component costs (425,000 gp).
/cevah
Like I said earlier, I don't understand the crafting rules enough to really say one way or another... but what Cevah said about clearly not paying for multiple castings of the Wish material component makes sense to me.
In the specific case of Hepha and the False Channel ability, the magical "cost" is still being "paid"... Hepha is expending spell slots, magic is being released or imbued or inserted or whatever you actually do with magic when creating magic items.
The material components have already been paid for by whoever made the scroll Hepha uses. The fact that he has an ability that allows him to reuse scrolls allows him to cheat material costs. I think.
What I said is you'd use a wish to wish for the Tome of Clear Thought +5.
You are using a wish to wish for more wishes? That is explicitly not allowed.
/cevah