Has There Been A FAQ About Crafting Multiple Potions / Scrolls Per Day?

[Meirril]

Magic Item Creation wrote:

The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5.

So in our current campaign we have a wizard and a druid trying to craft multiple items in a day. The Wizard wants to craft 4 first level scrolls. The druid is a Druidic Herbalist that has lots of special rules for crafting potions. Specifically:

Druidic Herbalism wrote:

A druid can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier.

Druidic Herbalism wrote:

Additionally, at 4th level, when the druid creates additional concoctions, she need pay only half the normal cost to create them.

Druidic Herbalism wrote:

Additionally, at 7th level, a druid can create any herbal concoction in 1 minute.

The druid in question has a 21 wis so has 5 uses of the create free concoctions ability which works like Brew Potion with an additional limitation. Everything implies that the Druidic Herbalist can make not just their wis mod in free potions, but more potions each day. If the one magic item per day in the crafting rules was the hard limit, why doesn't the Druidic Herbalism stuff say explicitly that you can craft more than one?

Is there anything to fix this disconnect in the rules that I'm not aware of? Especially considering that Druidic Herbalism only gives the ability to make free potions, not to create more items per day?

[blahpers]

The druid herbalism rules supersede the normal "one per day" restriction. Other magic item crafting is still restricted to one per day.

[Melkiador]

This is one of those odd copy paste things from Pathfinder being based on 3.5. The feat says, "Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price." That text is not in the original 3.5 feat, implying that there was an intention to lower the required time. But the text in the magic item creation section for potions was not updated to reflect this change, so there you still have the line, "Brewing a potion requires one day.", which the original feat also used to have.

So, I'm not sure what the intention was for Pathfinder. Maybe you are intended to be able to craft up to 4 low level potions per day. Or maybe you're intended to craft one potion very quickly and then just have a bunch of free time the rest of that day. I imagine it's the kind of thing that gets interpreted differently from table to table, so you'll need to ask your GM.

[Pizza Lord]

I think your wizard might be able to get away with making one scroll with four (or more) spells on it; that technically counts as one magic item, but making four separate scrolls is clearly four separate magic items.

[OmniMage]

I'm not against allowing you to craft more magic items per day. Crafting a level 1 scroll (25 gp) is not a good use of your time when your limit is 1000 gp per day. The only time you should be making level 1 scrolls is if you are low on character levels, short on cash, or really need a spell.

So maybe try to talk to your GM about making a few changes to item crafting rules. Make it so you can craft up to 4x 250 gp items per day (each taking 2 hours). Let us know how it goes.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Unfortunately your wizard will likely be disappointed without GM intervention. Under the rules for Creating Scrolls, it clearly states that although a scroll can have multiple spells, only 1 spell can be scribed/day.

This is frustrating.

A level 1 wizard receives Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. One of the Archetypes their Familiar can take is the Valet, from which the wizard derives a helper and the benefits of the Cooperative Crafting Teamwork Feat. This means their GP limit per day doubles AND they've got someone that can potentially give them an Aid Another check on the crafting check.

On a day off from adventuring this level 1 wizard could normally cast, say, 3 level 1 spells and an unlimited amount of castings of 3 cantrips. They have a 2,000 GP limit in crafted item worth they can make in a day. Regardless, they can craft 1 scroll with one spell. Period.

My suggestion would be to ask for the houserule I use in my own game to ignore that line in scroll creation, allowing a caster to cast as many spells as they'd like up to their 1000 GP (or higher) limit/day.

[Diego Rossi]

You really want to have the PCs running around with one or more scrolls of every spell they know?

[Melkiador]

I think the feat text is more than sufficient as a "house rule".

Quote:

Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price.

It gives casters the ability to produce more scrolls per day at low level, when they really need it. But cuts out for 3rd level spells, when casters no longer need help keeping up with martials.

[blahpers]

Diego Rossi wrote:

You really want to have the PCs running around with one or more scrolls of every spell they know?

Nope, only the useful ones. : D

[Diego Rossi]

Melkiador wrote:

I think the feat text is more than sufficient as a "house rule".

Quote:

Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price.

It gives casters the ability to produce more scrolls per day at low level, when they really need it. But cuts out for 3rd level spells, when casters no longer need help keeping up with martials.

That gives them more free time, but they are still limited to making one magic item in a day.

If you mean that, as a house rule you allow them to make more scrolls in a day while staying within the 8 hours daily limit, it works.
I still feel that it gift spellcasters more power for free.

@blahpers If you play long enough, any spell is useful, sooner or later.
I argued with our oracle about not taking Protective Penumbra as one of his know spells (all human characters), but it became useful when we meet a vampirized paladin and befriended him.
I still feel that it was a waste of a know spell slot, but a scroll of it isn't a wasted item.

[Mark Hoover 330]

@ Mr Rossi: yes, I want my players with more than one scroll of every spell they have, if that's what they care to do with their time/GP.

Scribe Scroll costs more than Craft Wand on a per scroll versus per wand charge basis, so my players are forced to not use the most cost effective crafting feat if they choose to go this route.

If you spend 1 day and 375 GP you can put 50 charges of Mage Armor in a fancy stick, which works out to 7.5 GP/charge. If you pound that stick into pulp, dry the pulp to paper, add fancy inks and roughly the same free time you can put... one charge of Mage Armor on the paper for 12.5 GP.

The only difference being that you can make the scroll right away at level 1 if you take the feat then; with wands you have to wait until level 3.

IMO if a single casting of Mage Armor can spontaneously duplicate into 50 charges of itself in a wand, I have no problem having a level 1 wizard scribe 2 "charges" of that spell on a scroll at level 1.

As for them having ALL their spells on scrolls, while I agree that at some point all spells are useful, I rarely if ever have seen that occur. For one, as I said, it's more cost effective to craft wands over scrolls. For another scrolls and wands both suffer from having greatly reduced save DCs.

A level 1 specialist evoker wizard with a 20 point buy and optimized build might have a DC 17 or better save on their Burning Hands spell; the same wizard could cast that from a scroll with a DC 11 save. In my experience scroll users in my games tend to put defensive, buffing, or utility spells on scrolls, or else use scrolls for attack spells that require an attack roll versus a save DC.

All of the above is anecdotal and I want to say that I have no problem with others who run their game based on the RAW of scribing 1 scroll spell/day. These are my personal beliefs/house rules only. Mr D I value the advice and guidance you've put on these boards in the past and just want to say that, on this ruling I respectfully disagree. Thanks!

[Cavall]

It isnt just RAW.

It's just the plain rules.

That's why some classes (like witches) can brew multiple potions to exceed these built in limits.

It isnt making one class stronger it's making optional classes weaker. Food for thought.

[Melkiador]

It really doesn’t make the witch option any weaker. They would stack. And the witch option is effective on all potions not just some low level ones.

[OmniMage]

Magic item creation isn't the best mechanic for game balance. You need downtime to properly use item creation; otherwise its a waste of feats. The quantity of item creation feats you have doesn't do you much good after you get a broad one like craft wondrous items (which allows you to craft many many things), or a potent one like craft wands. Once you get a magic item creation feat you want to use all the time, the rest become distractions. Having all 8 magic item creation feats does not make crafting any faster than back when you had only 1.

[Meirril]

So devil's advocate time. A Druidic Herbalist of 7th level can create a concoction in 1 minute. He can make his Wis mod in concoctions for 'free'. He is further allowed to make more concoctions at half price.

How many concoctions can a 7th level Druidic Herbalist make?

A) Wis mod + 1
B) All of his spell slots + an unlimited number of zero level potions.
C) Answer B + Wis mod.
D) write your own explanation.

[Melkiador]

Well, you can only make concoctions over 3rd level by using the infusion rules. And I don’t think there’s a limit to how many infusions you can make in a day, other than your available spell slots.

[Meirril]

If I planned on just making concoctions for a day, I could prep 3rd level spells or lower in my 4+ slots.

[baggageboy]

Herbalism is a very swingy ability when it come to power. In a fast paced campaign you get very little out of it as you burn slots to make concoctions even with the free ones. However if you have downtime... Well your gm my put a limit on what you can do. Pumping out Wis mod potions a day for free at max caster level (since you aren't paying there's no reason to not max that out) can get broken very very fast. The best thing to do is talk with your gm and get their opinion on it.

[Melkiador]

There’s some obvious reasons why Druidic herbalism wasn’t made PFS legal. I’m more troubled about the wisdom modifier worth of potions they can daily make at max level and at no cost.

[Azothath]

No

Now that that is out of the way...

Commentary -
It is clear that the PF designers wanted to prevent spellcasters from running amok on an inexperienced GM, so the rules got constrained at various points in the publication history. Also there is considerable trial and error involved in playtesting rules for game balance.
It's up to your GM to smooth out the incongruities in the game and loosen up on the power aspect of spellcasters if they want.
Old DnD3.5 FR rules are there for a guide if you want. Magic of Faerûn was a great supplement.

[Diego Rossi]

Concoctions that don't work like potions have the same limit of infusions. They either last a single day or they burn your spell slots until they are used.
What is the correct limitation for infusions and extracts has never been officially explained, but the general consensus is that they last a single day.

To reply Meirill question, concoctions have a specific rule: "A druid can create a number of free herbal concoctions per day equal to her Wisdom modifier." Specific rules override general rules, so he can craft Wis+1 concoctions that are potions if he has the time. Concoctions that are infusions are limited by the infusion rules, not the magic item crafting rules.
For both kinds he uses up the appropriate spell slots.

[blahpers]

I can't get over the idea that druids of all classes get a "brew free money" ability.

[willuwontu]

blahpers wrote:

I can't get over the idea that druids of all classes get a "brew free money" ability.

Don't think of them as potions, think of the as "420 yolo potions". Then it all makes senses as we know druids grow plants the best.

[blahpers]

willuwontu wrote:

blahpers wrote:

I can't get over the idea that druids of all classes get a "brew free money" ability.

Don't think of them as potions, think of the as "420 yolo potions". Then it all makes senses as we know druids grow plants the best.

Ha . . .

. . .

. . . Now I'm getting this idea for a cartel of druid drug lords bringing down civilization and making a killing in the process. . . .

/you got my Shadowrun in your Pathfinder!

[Diego Rossi]

blahpers wrote:

I can't get over the idea that druids of all classes get a "brew free money" ability.

It is in exchange for a useful ability, but the utility of the animal companion decrease hen you get high levels, while the utility of making free potions at your caster level increase with your caster level.

Making half a dozen potions of barkskin with a CL 15 for free every day will get you a lot of friends. Considering the book where it was published I suppose the idea was to give the druid a better healing ability, but most of the time it will end stocking useful potions and still using happy sticks (wand of CLW) to cure hp of damage.