Heightened Invisibility

[Atalius]

How viable is Heightened Invisibility in PF2? Is it quite easy for the enemy to just spend a seek action to find you? Or is this spell worthy of a slot on a real casters list?

[Parduss]

I mean, halving the chance for someone to hit you (DC 11 check), everyone being flatfooted to you (which means if you have the Magical Trickster feat, that's a fireball with sneak attack), and that's only after they've succeeded on that perception check you work out where you are.

[BlessedHeretic]

if they know where you are, they still suffer a DC11 flat check to target you. That's a 55% chance of failure. on top flat footing them against you, it's significant.

[Atalius]

Hmm we've got a Barbarian, a Wild Order Druid, Rogue and Whip wielding Bard on the team, who would be the best candidate to have this spell cast on them?

[Siro]

Generally, the Rogue would be pretty good, as creatures that are flat-footed against there attacks also suffer from there sneak-attack damage, and any disability effects it may have. Also, if they are the more 'traditionally' minded Rogue of sneak and stab, they both have a fairly good chance of sneaking away if something gives away there position/ they will appreciate the 50% chance to miss being slightly squishier then most up close combatants.

Barbarian could be fun, simply because they can hit really hard, and creatures being flat-footed against them means they will hit more/ crit more often. Plus the 50% auto-miss means they will be even stickier. One drawback however is, if an enemy cannot see/ does not exactly know where the Barbarian is, then they may just start targeting the more visible and squishier members of the party. {ie, foes may be less incline to try and hit something they cannot see, versus something they can see.}

Same thing for the Druid if they are going down the Wild Shape/ turning into stuff.

The Bard while having reach with the whip, is going to still be pretty close to the front lines, so the 50% miss chance is also going to be useful for him as well.

While I have mentioned different reasons why the different members would like it {hey, who would not want to be invisible in a world that as a dedicated 362 page tome of things that want to kill you, with more tomes planned in the future}, its also going to be dependent on the situation at hand. For example, if a party member is very low on HP, and no one has really good healing prepared, even if they generally would not take full advantage of being invisible, giving foes a 50% chance to miss them can be life saving.

[Castilliano]

Parduss wrote:

I mean, halving the chance for someone to hit you (DC 11 check), everyone being flatfooted to you (which means if you have the Magical Trickster feat, that's a fireball with sneak attack), and that's only after they've succeeded on that perception check you work out where you are.

Magical Trickster only works with spells that have a Spell Attack roll not those with Saves. I expect an archetype (likely an Arcane Trickster in the APG) to build on this. Who knows, given how that would be pretty powerful.

Though yes, Heightened Invisibility is as useful as before, at least if they have to directly attack you.

[BellyBeard]

Being able to Seek-move-attack does mean that invisibility isn't quite as overpowering as before. But it is nonetheless one of the most powerful buffs. Flat footed to all attacks, they have to spend actions to even know where you are (which can fail) and better than half chance of missing even if they do find you. Then you can simply move again next turn to force more checks.

Do note that casting from invisibility produces "noticeable visual manifestations" which will reveal your location without seek checks. So either cast then move each turn, or plan to use Conceal Spell/silent spell to hide your position.

[Atalius]

Interesting, both my hands are occupied and noticed the spell has a material component, does that mean I need to empty out one hand (Shield) so I can cast the spell?

[thenobledrake]

Atalius wrote:

Interesting, both my hands are occupied and noticed the spell has a material component, does that mean I need to empty out one hand (Shield) so I can cast the spell?

That is correct; spells with material components require a hand free to manipulate those components.

However, most spell-casting classes have a built-in way to get around that requirement in particular situations: bards can replace any component with a focus component while playing an instrument, clerics can use a divine focus such as a religious symbol to replace material components with focus components, druids can do that with a primal focus such as holly and mistletoe, sorcerers can replace material components with somatic components just because of their blood... but in all cases the type of spells each is able to do that with is limited to those naturally occuring within their class (i.e. clerics and divine spells, druids and primal spells, and so forth)

[Atalius]

My Bard doesn't have access to Concealed Spell or Silent Spell, would Melodious Spell help when casting Heightened Invisibility?

[Siro]

Depends on what you are trying to do. Even with Melodious Spells all the effects that would indicate you are casting a spell are still there {hand movement, odd words, mini light show, ect.} What it does, however , is to integrate all these indicators into a Performance, so anyone whom fails there check against your Performance, simply believes they are part of the show.

So if you need to cast Heightened Invisibility without anyone noticing your casting a spell, its your best bet. {side note, using this with Illusory Creature can help in a lot of social situations. Social situations is where this feat seems to shine} If the goal is to remain hidden while you are invisible, well, you can fool them into thinking your not casting a spell, but your mini rock show will still properly give away your position.

Also, I heard you mentioning having to drop your shield to have a hand free for material components for spells. If it becomes an big issue, take a look at Bucklers. They do provide less 1 less AC then your standard shield when you raise it, but keeps your hand free. {you can even use the 'Raise Shield' action even if you have something in your hand the of the shield arm, as long as its a light object and not a weapon.)

[Atalius]

If an enemy does use the Seek action is there a particular character would be better not being seeker out, for example would the high stealth Rogue be the best for remaining hidden ? If Stealth is indeed a big factor maybe Stealth is a skill I should consider increasing as a Bard?

[Siro]

If its the traditional 'Thief Racket' based Rouge, then generally they would be the best at being hidden. This is because there going to {most likely} have the higher Dex, and so will have the better stat bonus to Stealth. They also have class feats which deal with Stealth, and the class feature of sneak attacks working in tamdum through the flat-footed condition which being hidden can provide {Edit= plus they have more Skill feats they can devote to the cause.}

As for your Bard, it all depends on what you want to do, and what kind of purpose it fulfills for 1) your character in terms of there 'character' 2) the goal you wish to achieve, both from a story and build wise 3) the goals and abilities of the party as a whole and 4) what your character as experienced in the story so far.

Just inferring based on the thread {so I could be wrong} but it seems your idea is to be Invisible, cast a spell or some other action that will generally give away your position, and then use the 'Sneak' action to conceal your position again. If you plan to incorporate that tactic on a regular bases in battle, then invest {as the 'Sneak' action is against foes Perception DC when you try it, at least after you give away your position after turning Invisible. Though, if you are still Invisible and crit fail the check, you only suffer the results of a failure, meaning they know the rough area you are, but you are still 'Hidden' from them, unless they have another sense that could find you.). Also, keep in mind how useful it may be outside of battle as well, and what your character could do with it {A good Sneak along Deception and a couple of choice spells under your belt, and you can be a good infiltrator or the party for example}

However, also keep in mind what you may be giving up in the process, has every investment into the Stealth skill means another skill was not invested in. If your only planing using it on occasion with 'Invisibility' while in battle, then it may be better to put that investment into something else. {Being 'Trained' in Stealth with a decent Dex is alright if your not planning on using it a lot, and even if you are found, foes still have the 50% chance to miss while targeting you, unless they have another way other then sight to 'see' you, meaning they may be more encouraged to go after more visible targets even if they do know your rough location.)

[Ediwir]

A sufficiently high Invisibility can pierce through True Seeing.

I'd say it's worth it.

[mrspaghetti]

Atalius wrote:

Interesting, both my hands are occupied and noticed the spell has a material component, does that mean I need to empty out one hand (Shield) so I can cast the spell?

I don't think so. Holding something doesn't prevent you from using somatic components in 2e, only being restrained or pinned in some way.

[thenobledrake]

mrspaghetti wrote:

Atalius wrote:

Interesting, both my hands are occupied and noticed the spell has a material component, does that mean I need to empty out one hand (Shield) so I can cast the spell?

I don't think so. Holding something doesn't prevent you from using somatic components in 2e, only being restrained or pinned in some way.

the spell has a material component - not just somatic.

[mrspaghetti]

thenobledrake wrote:

mrspaghetti wrote:

Atalius wrote:

Interesting, both my hands are occupied and noticed the spell has a material component, does that mean I need to empty out one hand (Shield) so I can cast the spell?

I don't think so. Holding something doesn't prevent you from using somatic components in 2e, only being restrained or pinned in some way.

the spell has a material component - not just somatic.

My bad, I stand corrected.

[Atalius]

Is this considered a top 3 buffing spell in the game?

[thenobledrake]

Atalius wrote:

Is this considered a top 3 buffing spell in the game?

There's really no way to actually meaningfully rank things like that because everything in the game is situational, so what is exceptionally useful in one campaign is only mildly useful in another.

So make your own determination as to how you think things rate.

[Atalius]

thenobledrake wrote:

Atalius wrote:

Is this considered a top 3 buffing spell in the game?

There's really no way to actually meaningfully rank things like that because everything in the game is situational, so what is exceptionally useful in one campaign is only mildly useful in another.

So make your own determination as to how you think things rate.

I didn't think this spell was that situational, I thought it was solid most combats, for example like Heroism, its usually solid.

[thenobledrake]

Atalius wrote:

I didn't think this spell was that situational, I thought it was solid most combats, for example like Heroism, its usually solid.

Combat is a situation. As is the particulars of the opponents you face, some of which have traits that make not being visible less beneficial like echolocation, metal scent, heatsight, or spells like true seeing, see invisibility, faerie fire or glitterdust.

[Atalius]

I see what your saying. Generally speaking would this spell be considered in the conversation with spells like Heroism and Haste?

Question if making a knowledge check and successful is it legitimate to ask if the monster has a means of seeing Invisibility?

[Siro]

Knowledge checks can be very dependent on DM, both in what they offer, and if you could use it ask specific questions. Depending on the DM, you may also try using Perception to see if the creature is not fully relying on its sense of sight {a creature whom keeps twitching there ears towards sound my indicate they use there hearing to some degree, or if you see there nose twitching, they may also be using smell.)

[thenobledrake]

What Siro said is very true.

I'd think that since the guidance on using Recall Knowledge to learn info about creatures encountered talks about best-known attributes you'd be very likely to recall that a bat has echolocation but something like a demon that has true seeing that's a lot less likely to be toward the top of the list of things people would consider important to remember.

As for the conversation about which spells are worth using, ideally the answer is "all of them, given the right situation" and PF2 has made good strides towards making that ideal a reality. At the very least, all of the "classics" (invisibility included) are easy to find a good reason to utilize.

[Atalius]

If I were to go the Heightened Invisibility route would eventually becoming a Master in Stealth in order to get Foil Senses be very helpful in avoiding detection during combat?

[Siro]

Foil Senses, if you are fully investing into Stealth, is an excellent feat to have. It basically means you do not have to worry about preparing for special senses that may detect you otherwise {smell, hearing, creatures whom can sense heartbeats ect.). This also means you do not need to worry about finding out if a creature has a special sense that could find you, at least for the purposes of them locating you with it. {ie, its useless to prepare against smell, if the creature actually senses heartbeats.}

One thing to note {in general because I've seen this happen once in game}, this does not mean you can no longer be detected by special senses, it means your automatically taking precautions against these senses. {basically, a low Stealth roll can still get you found.)

[Atalius]

Siro wrote:

Generally, the Rogue would be pretty good, as creatures that are flat-footed against there attacks also suffer from there sneak-attack damage, and any disability effects it may have. Also, if they are the more 'traditionally' minded Rogue of sneak and stab, they both have a fairly good chance of sneaking away if something gives away there position/ they will appreciate the 50% chance to miss being slightly squishier then most up close combatants.

Barbarian could be fun, simply because they can hit really hard, and creatures being flat-footed against them means they will hit more/ crit more often. Plus the 50% auto-miss means they will be even stickier. One drawback however is, if an enemy cannot see/ does not exactly know where the Barbarian is, then they may just start targeting the more visible and squishier members of the party. {ie, foes may be less incline to try and hit something they cannot see, versus something they can see.}

Same thing for the Druid if they are going down the Wild Shape/ turning into stuff.

The Bard while having reach with the whip, is going to still be pretty close to the front lines, so the 50% miss chance is also going to be useful for him as well.

While I have mentioned different reasons why the different members would like it {hey, who would not want to be invisible in a world that as a dedicated 362 page tome of things that want to kill you, with more tomes planned in the future}, its also going to be dependent on the situation at hand. For example, if a party member is very low on HP, and no one has really good healing prepared, even if they generally would not take full advantage of being invisible, giving foes a 50% chance to miss them can be life saving.

Very interesting, the Druid would be in dinosaur form and does have AOO via fighter Dedication at 4th level. With him being invisible I imagine enemies could very easily fall into his threatened range unknowingly and eat an AOO.

[Atalius]

Siro wrote:

Foil Senses, if you are fully investing into Stealth, is an excellent feat to have. It basically means you do not have to worry about preparing for special senses that may detect you otherwise {smell, hearing, creatures whom can sense heartbeats ect.). This also means you do not need to worry about finding out if a creature has a special sense that could find you, at least for the purposes of them locating you with it. {ie, its useless to prepare against smell, if the creature actually senses heartbeats.}

One thing to note {in general because I've seen this happen once in game}, this does not mean you can no longer be detected by special senses, it means your automatically taking precautions against these senses. {basically, a low Stealth roll can still get you found.)

Hmm, generally I am 10ft away from my opponent using my whip and inspiring courage, if I were using heightened invisibility would it be enough to move 5ft to remain undetected (so inspire courage, attack, move) or do I generally need to move more than that? Lastly would Inspire courage or inspire heroics give away my position?

[HammerJack]

Well, depending on the type of performance, your inspire courage is going to have some traits. With a visual performance, your allies wouldn't be inspired, unless they can see invisible creatures. With an audible performance, you would absolutely be making a bunch of noise that could give away your position. I can't think of a type of performance that you could be making while staying unnoticed, because those 2 things are kind of antithetical to each other.

That being said, making a lot of noise while invisible is still safer from attack than being clearly seen, and if you do draw attacks from creatures that have a 50% miss chance, that could be a good thing, since those attacks aren't being focused onto one character, to knock them out of the fight, and reduce the combat effectiveness of your party.

[Atalius]

Thanks Hammer! So would the 5ft movement after the courage or other composition essentially make me safe again?

[BellyBeard]

Atalius wrote:

Thanks Hammer! So would the 5ft movement after the courage or other composition essentially make me safe again?

Yes, moving after the spell would throw the enemies off your position, unless they can find you again with seek or anti-invisibility measures.

5 foot steps take just as many actions as a full movement, so you aren't restricted to stepping there.

[Atalius]

BellyBeard wrote:

Atalius wrote:

Thanks Hammer! So would the 5ft movement after the courage or other composition essentially make me safe again?

Yes, moving after the spell would throw the enemies off your position, unless they can find you again with seek or anti-invisibility measures.

5 foot steps take just as many actions as a full movement, so you aren't restricted to stepping there.

Does Seek work against foil senses? Or would foil senses only work to combat anti-invisibility measures like scent, tremorsense, etc. How would I protect against Seek?

Or basically is there no defending vs Seek, and it just allows the enemy to know what square I'm in and then they would still have a 50% miss chance right?

Curious a question for the mathematicians out there, if at level 14 I have Master Stealth with 19 Dex, how likely am I going to remain hidden vs the enemys Perception DC (+1 CR)?

[HammerJack]

Having a high stealth DC improves your odds against seek. A feat absolutely does not make you unseekable, though.

[BellyBeard]

Yeah, you can defend against Seek by having a high Stealth bonus, and by tricking the enemy with your movements so they seek in the wrong area. They have to target a 30 foot cone or 15 foot burst with Seek, and if it fails they won't know if it's because you aren't in the area or because they rolled too low.

[Atalius]

If I just had a high stealth but no Foil Senses could scent or tremorsense pinpoint what square I'm in? If so would they still have a 50% miss chance?

[HammerJack]

That depends on the situation. What is there, or what are you doing to avoid being detected with scent or tremorsense?

From the sidebar on page 465:

"DETECTING WITH OTHER SENSES

If a monster uses a sense other than vision, the GM can adapt the variables that keep its foes from being detected to equivalents that work with the monster’s senses. For example, a creature that has echolocation might use hearing as a primary sense. This could mean its quarry is concealed in a noisy chamber, hidden in a great enough din, or even invisible in the area of a silence spell.

Using Stealth with Other Senses

The Stealth skill is designed to use Hide for avoiding visual detection and Avoid Notice and Sneak to avoid being both seen and heard. For many special senses, a player can describe how they’re avoiding detection by that special sense and use the most applicable Stealth action. For instance, a creature stepping lightly to avoid being detected via tremorsense would be using Sneak.In some cases, rolling a Dexterity-based Stealth skill check to Sneak doesn’t make the most sense. For example, when facing a creature that can detect heartbeats, a PC trying to avoid being detected might meditate to slow their heart rate, using Wisdom instead of Dexterity as the ability modifier for the Stealth check. When a creature that can detect you has multiple senses, such as if it could also hear or see, the PC would use the lowest applicable ability modifier for the check."

Foil senses is a feat that allows you to use the hide, sneak and avoid notice actions for all kinds of senses, but it is not the only way to take any precaution. More specific countermeasures for particular senses can be very case-by-case, and dependent on GM judgement of how a particular plan would work to avoid notice by a particular creature, and what skills/attributes should be used. Some senses do have built in limitations you can plam around, though. Tremorsense, for example, can be avoided, if you can avoid being on the same surface as the monster.

With regard to the 50% miss chance, that should still apply any time a creature is only perceiving you with an imprecise sense to narrow your location down to a square, bease imprecise seneed can only treat your as hidden, not as observed.

TLDR, if you don't have foil senses, you may still be able to take actions to nit be found by scent/tremorsense/etc... but those actions might not be hide and sneak.

[Atalius]

Thanks Hammer very thorough as per usual. It's hard to decide whether I should be using this spell on myself in combat in order to protect myself (and trip/buff my allies) or if I would be better off with a spell like Fly (vs a large grounded enemy).

[BellyBeard]

Atalius wrote:

If I just had a high stealth but no Foil Senses could scent or tremorsense pinpoint what square I'm in? If so would they still have a 50% miss chance?

First, let's look at how stealth works with invisibility and normal human senses.

If you are invisible and not trying to stealth, a human will not be able to see you, so you are undetected to their sight, they can't find your square. However, without Sneaking their imprecise hearing sense makes you hidden to them, allowing them to locate your square automatically: you make enough noise moving around that they can find you. If you use Sneak to move around, their hearing can no longer detect you automatically, so you change to undetected by both hearing and sight. If they Seek and beat your Stealth DC, their hearing changes you from undetected to hidden, and they have located your square. As you are completely invisible, their sight still cannot locate you even with the Seek action (important for deaf characters or creatures who only have sight).

Sneak can be used whenever you are concealed or in cover from all the creature's precise senses. In the case of invisibility against a normal human observer, sight is the only precise sense, and you have concealment from that so you can Sneak whenever you like.

If a creature has scent or tremorsense, those are usually imprecise. These work the same way as hearing in our previous example. This means if you are invisible but not using Sneak, you will be hidden: they will know your square but suffer the miss chance. You do not need concealment from their scent or tremorsense to use Sneak. However you do need to describe a plausible way that you are hiding from that sense, such as stepping quietly for tremorsense or moving upwind to avoid a creature's scent ability.

However, if a creature has scent, tremorsense, or another sense as a precise sense, that all changes. Now it works like sight. If you do not Sneak you are observed, the creature knows your square and has no miss chance. In order to Sneak you need cover or concealment. For example, concealment from tremorsense might be an earthquake or Huge creature stomping around which makes it harder to pick up your smaller footsteps, against scent it might be a smelly sewer environment that makes your scent hard to detect. If you have such concealment or cover, you can Sneak just as before. If you still have cover or concealment at the end of the move and pass your Stealth check you become undetected to the creature, as they lose which square you are at. Then the creature can Seek, just like with using sight, and if they find you you become observed again, losing the miss chance.

I will reiterate that the vast majority of creatures with these scent or tremorsense have them as imprecise senses, which means you don't need concealment to Sneak and if they find you they still have the 50% miss chance.

So what does Foil Senses actually do? That part I said earlier about having a plausible way to foil senses is what it changes. You are always considered as having a plausible way to foil senses, which means even if you don't know that a creature with scent is around the corner you can roll Stealth against it. Someone who does not have the feat, and is not specially preparing to hide against scent, will automatically fail their Stealth roll and be detected by the creature. It would be like someone trying to sneak up on you by staying out of sight, but knocking things over and making a bunch of noise. Foil Senses mostly helps in avoiding threats you don't know about, because if you know a creature with tremorsense is around the corner you already know to step lightly.

There are also cases where you know about the threat but can't plausibly sneak up on it. For example, if a blind wolf with scent is nearby, Sneaking close to it will reveal you unless you have some way of concealing your scent, which might not be possible in your environment. In these cases the character with Foil Senses doesn't need to find mud to roll in or anything like that to conceal their scent, they can sneak past it as easily as if it didn't have scent at all (assuming they pass their Stealth roll, that is).

To summarize and answer your question, yes they would be able to pinpoint you, and yes they would have 50% miss chance. But you can possibly avoid the pinpointing by saying how you are avoiding the sense.

Edit: Oops, HammerJack beat me to it! Hopefully my post helps you understand the general rules better.

[Atalius]

Ediwir wrote:

A sufficiently high Invisibility can pierce through True Seeing.

I'd say it's worth it.

Does this mean I would need to heighten the Invisibility to my highest level?

[Atalius]

Anyone?

[HumbleGamer]

Atalius wrote:

Ediwir wrote:

A sufficiently high Invisibility can pierce through True Seeing.

I'd say it's worth it.

Does this mean I would need to heighten the Invisibility to my highest level?

Depends who you are facing.

Being paranoid and consider to find only enemies with permatruesight hightened lvl 200 is not a good idea.

What could happen instead is to find somebody able to see through your invis. Not a big deal imo.

[Captain Morgan]

How good a buff spell is varies drastically on who it is being cast on. The rogue in your party is probably the best recipient for reasons already discussed. A flurry ranger would love it too, especially if they are ranged, but they'd also love heroism. On your bard, haste is probably the better opening buff because gishes have very packed action economies and that extra action is clutch. How good heroism is will vary based on whether you use are using Inspire Courage, which doesn't stack with it.

If you have Invisibility as a signature spell though you can have all of these spells plus fly in your arsenal.

[Atalius]

Captain Morgan wrote:

How good a buff spell is varies drastically on who it is being cast on. The rogue in your party is probably the best recipient for reasons already discussed. A flurry ranger would love it too, especially if they are ranged, but they'd also love heroism. On your bard, haste is probably the better opening buff because gishes have very packed action economies and that extra action is clutch. How good heroism is will vary based on whether you use are using Inspire Courage, which doesn't stack with it.

If you have Invisibility as a signature spell though you can have all of these spells plus fly in your arsenal.

Good stuff thank you! Btw What the hell is a Gish I often hear the term?

[Ed Reppert]

Ediwir wrote:

A sufficiently high Invisibility can pierce through True Seeing.

Not sure I know what that means.

Invisibility is a second level illusion. It can be heightened to fourth level, but all that does is reduce the duration from 10 minutes to 1 minute and allow the invisible creature to take hostile actions without ending the spell. The spell makes the target undetected to other creatures. However, those creatures can attempt to find the invisible one, making it hidden instead.

True Seeing is a sixth level divination spell. Not sure exactly how it works vs. invisibility, but I imagine a spell attack roll against the spell DC of the illusion.

As I understand it, the spell DC of a particular spell does not depend on the level of the spell. Instead, it depends on the level of the caster. So I don't know how heightening an invisibility spell "pierces through" True Seeing.

Maybe I just don't understand how it works. If so, I'd appreciate enlightenment. :-)

[Captain Morgan]

Atalius wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

How good a buff spell is varies drastically on who it is being cast on. The rogue in your party is probably the best recipient for reasons already discussed. A flurry ranger would love it too, especially if they are ranged, but they'd also love heroism. On your bard, haste is probably the better opening buff because gishes have very packed action economies and that extra action is clutch. How good heroism is will vary based on whether you use are using Inspire Courage, which doesn't stack with it.

If you have Invisibility as a signature spell though you can have all of these spells plus fly in your arsenal.

Good stuff thank you! Btw What the hell is a Gish I often hear the term?

Someone who does both casting in melee. It used to get used specifically for arcane casters, with the magus being the ultimate example in PF1.

Casters with a good Strike really really like haste because it lets them cast, strike, and still have one more action left to move or use metamagic or a composition. For your melee bard, using Dirge of Doom >spell>strike is really good, especially if the spell doesn't involve an attack roll so you're still striking at the full bonus.

[HammerJack]

True seeing makes a counteract check against illusions, like invisibility. How difficult a counteract check is depends heavily on the relative levels of effects.

Remember that spells cam always be heightened to levels not mentioned in the spell description, to affect the counteract chances of things like dispel magic.

[Ed Reppert]

HammerJack wrote:

True seeing makes a counteract check against illusions, like invisibility. How difficult a counteract check is depends heavily on the relative levels of effects.

Remember that spells cam always be heightened to levels not mentioned in the spell description, to affect the counteract chances of things like dispel magic.

Hm. Thanks. <wanders off to look up "counteract check">

[Atalius]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Atalius wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

How good a buff spell is varies drastically on who it is being cast on. The rogue in your party is probably the best recipient for reasons already discussed. A flurry ranger would love it too, especially if they are ranged, but they'd also love heroism. On your bard, haste is probably the better opening buff because gishes have very packed action economies and that extra action is clutch. How good heroism is will vary based on whether you use are using Inspire Courage, which doesn't stack with it.

If you have Invisibility as a signature spell though you can have all of these spells plus fly in your arsenal.

Good stuff thank you! Btw What the hell is a Gish I often hear the term?

Someone who does both casting in melee. It used to get used specifically for arcane casters, with the magus being the ultimate example in PF1.

Casters with a good Strike really really like haste because it lets them cast, strike, and still have one more action left to move or use metamagic or a composition. For your melee bard, using Dirge of Doom >spell>strike is really good, especially if the spell doesn't involve an attack roll so you're still striking at the full bonus.

Just about, instead of an attack I use a whip to trip so unfortunately I can't get the strike in :( otherwise it would be pretty awesome. I'm a whip wielding, trip providing, aid giving, Bard. We have three other martials in the comp so didn't want to provide any more firepower. I could take advantage of that move action though, I didn't plan on getting spiritual weapon simply because we already have plenty of damage and the MAP would effect my ability to Trip.

[Siro]

Depending on your play style, if MAP is a concern with your Trip attacks, you may what to look into the 'Assurance' skill feat for Athletics {assuming you are increasing your prof for Athletics.} While using it negates any bonuses {ie, items, spells ect} you have, it also negates any pens as well {including MAP, which could overall provide a bonus.}. It can also mean you can 'assuredly' trip less power enemies, {as what you 'roll' will never change, so if you can trip them once with 'Assurance' you can always trip them} which could save yourself and the party resources, which could be used for greater threats. It can also work with 'Dirge of Doom', as 'Assurance' only affects you, not the pens your foes are suffering.

Also, while I would definitely would not rely on it, your whip allows your to 'Disarm' at a distance. To truly disarm a foe, you would need to crit success your check {making it unreliable} but it can be devastating when it does work {ie, knock the holy symbol out of the hands of the opposing cleric for example.}

EDIT= If your DM is a bit generous with the 'Aid' action, they may allow the use of something like 'Performance' as you attempt to distract the foe with a scathing comedic comment, lowering there defenses at just the right time, giving your friend a bonus to hit. {ie " Thou are a ruttish milk-livered minnow. A sanctimonious ill-nurtured malt-horse. A gleekiing idle-headed withered-hag. So sit thine traitorous toad-spotted malt-worm behind down, because you just got Shakespeared son. <insults were acquired from a Shakespearean Insults Generator.> The bonus for your Performance is most likely better then something like your whip, and will most likely have a better prof, which can give better bonuses if you crit the aid check.

[Atalius]

BellyBeard wrote:

Atalius wrote:

Thanks Hammer! So would the 5ft movement after the courage or other composition essentially make me safe again?

Yes, moving after the spell would throw the enemies off your position, unless they can find you again with seek or anti-invisibility measures.

5 foot steps take just as many actions as a full movement, so you aren't restricted to stepping there.

If however I chose to do a Lingering Composition, would then making a 5ft step do anything to hide my position? I would think since its lingering I'm going to be singing/dancing/acting continuously thus giving away my location?