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Basically, the champion Diefic Weapon class feature seems to strongly imply that Champions will almost always use the favored weapon of their diety. Is this true? Would a champion of Shelyn almost always favor the use of a Glaive or might some choose to take up sword and shield to gain better defense and potentially stronger capability to protect their friends with additional shield block attempts, etc?
I am just curious on how well the idea of Champions who do not choose to use their diefic weapon fits into the setting.
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I think you have this kind of backwards. It's not that Deific weapon says "use the favored weapon of your deity" it's "if you wanted to use the favored weapon of your deity, it will be usable even if it's normally not a very good weapon." So Redeemers of Pharasma are not worse off for using daggers for thematic reasons. But since they have martial weapons they're free to use longswords or fauchards or whatever else, which might be better than even a souped up dagger.
In first edition Paladins had precisely no incentive to use their deity's weapon. So the precedent is that a Paladin of Shelyn can use a rapier or a guisarme if they want and there's nothing even remotely weird about this.
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I think you have this kind of backwards. It's not that Deific weapon says "use the favored weapon of your deity" it's "if you wanted to use the favored weapon of your deity, it will be usable even if it's normally not a very good weapon." So Redeemers of Pharasma are not worse off for using daggers for thematic reasons. But since they have martial weapons they're free to use longswords or fauchards or whatever else, which might be better than even a souped up dagger.
In first edition Paladins had precisely no incentive to use their deity's weapon. So the precedent is that a Paladin of Shelyn can use a rapier or a guisarme if they want and there's nothing even remotely weird about this.
Mechanically this is what it offers.. however let me include the text and my interpretation of one particular point:
You zealously bear your deity’s favored weapon. If it’s uncommon, you gain access to it. If it’s a simple weapon, increase the damage die by one step (d4 to d6, d6 to d8, d8 to d10, d10 to d12).I've added the emphasis here. The concept of 'zelously bearing' the weapon to me implies that the champion would tend to choose this weapon over all others.
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Pretty much every paragraph in Pathfinder starts with a bit of "fluff" like that before getting to the mechanical "crunch." It's always best not to take the fluff too seriously, as they don't really make much effort to get it right; it just needs to sound good in passing.
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Pretty much every paragraph in Pathfinder starts with a bit of "fluff" like that before getting to the mechanical "crunch." It's always best not to take the fluff too seriously, as they don't really make much effort to get it right; it just needs to sound good in passing.
This is why my question is more about lore/fluff than mechanical rules. Curious if it is like incredibly uncommon for a champion not to take up their diefic weapon or if it happens with enough frequency that he wouldn't seem completely out of place, just not common either. This is more from an RP/Lore/Thematic perspective.
I don't think it would be weird even for a Cleric of Torag to prefer an axe to a warhammer- both are suitably dwarfy weapons.
I would think so, because as it stands champions of koroda and irori can't use smite evil with their deity's favored weapon or the blade ally power. So there must expectations that you won't always chose to use your deities favored weapon as a champion.
Also you can always both bring your deitys weapon with you and other weapon for specifik situations.
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Don't take it too seriously. Not all Deities are particularly martial, so therefore they wouldn't really care about weapons much anyways. That all Deities have "Favored Weapon" really shouldn't imply there is consistent sentiment towards them, or anything like moral value attached to using that particular weapon. Probably Champions are more likely to at least CARRY / have on hand the Deity Favored Weapon. But even that isn't guaranteed. Especially for martial deities, maybe myths about the Deity usually feature the Deity using a particular weapon. Maybe their Champion can choose to emulate that. But there's no inherent reason they have to. I think mostly it's about so there can be special magic weapons of Deity that both Cleric and Champion could make use of decently. But there isn't anything about generic weapon type that requires it be used.
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Note that Deific Weapon does literally nothing if your deity's favored weapon is already a proper warrior's weapon. The ability exists for exactly the reason Cabbage says it exists, and nothing else.
If Champions were required to use their deity's favored weapon, it'd be listed in their anathema. It isn't, so they're not.
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I would find it common for Champions to have the diety's favored weapon with them as a ceremonial weapon. Even if they don't fight with it they can carry it in town so that people recognize them as a champion of X.
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"Zealously" doesn't necessarily mean "all the time" or "to the exclusion of all else" just, when you wield it, you wield it zealously.
I find it helpful when making champion characters and npcs (as champions, paladins especially, run into problems of being a bit cookie cutter) to picture a cast of characters on a tv show or anime, where all of the main characters are a team of 5 or 6 champions of the same god. They would each have their own personality and preferred fighting style to distinguish them - (lets pretend that in this example the deities weapon is a longsword) one might be the grizzled old mentor, one might be the unsure of himself new guy, one might be the reformed rogue who actually uses her daggers more often than the deities longsword, one might actually act as a scout for the order, and prefers a bow, and the dumb big guy might use a greatsword.
They all probably carry longswords, but some may have other weapons they also carry as they prefer them or use them interchangeably depending on the situation. For some of them, the longsword may be something they are trained with, and use in ceremonial functions (like duels or parades) but use something else in combat.
Heck, a knightly order usually does have a variety of weapons used on the battlefield, because just having a regiment of knights all wielding the same thing and nothing else isn't the brightest idea.
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"I don't always wield my deity's favored weapon, but when I do, I do it zealously."
"Zealously" doesn't necessarily mean "all the time" or "to the exclusion of all else" just, when you wield it, you wield it zealously.
It doesn't even say "wield". It says you zealously BEAR your deity's favorite weapon. You carry it with great enthusiasm. I don't take this to mean you always, or necessarily ever, carry it. Just that if you have one on you, you are pretty darn proud of what it represents.
Mostly I think the whole "favored weapon" concept is silly, and paying it much attention makes the game worse. The gods concern themselves with big, philosophical issues. What is so special about weapons (as opposed to food or poems or buildings) that each god cares so much about one specific, unique type? Why would a Champion of Shelyn carry her favorite weapon, and not sing her favorite song? Why would Norgorber have a favorite weapon instead of a favorite poison?
If some specific god really does care about some specific weapon, it's use should be part of the Edict.
"Zealously" doesn't necessarily mean "all the time" or "to the exclusion of all else" just, when you wield it, you wield it zealously.Mostly I think the whole "favored weapon" concept is silly, and paying it much attention makes the game worse. The gods concern themselves with big, philosophical issues. What is so special about weapons (as opposed to food or poems or buildings) that each god cares so much about one specific, unique type? Why would a Champion of Shelyn carry her favorite weapon, and not sing her favorite song? Why would Norgorber have a favorite weapon instead of a favorite poison?
Probably because the game is about adventurers who mostly fight things, so way back in 3.5 they made it so every god's clerics and paladins had something to flail incessantly at monsters with that helped to set them apart from clerics of the other gods.
For some gods it feels weird if you don't have bonus to using hammers of some kind (Torag for example) and for a god of the hunt you really want them to be more likely to use a bow than pretty clerics.
But for some, yeah it's a bit strange. I think its pretty meh thematically for Shelyn to care that much about weapons (though I do think Norgober is appropriate to have a weapon as he is literally a god of murder, and he prominently wields a short sword in all of the art).
It would be nice to have a non-weapon option for some gods, maybe something you can wave around for some effect in battle (torches, lanterns, censers, musical instruments, chalices full of blood, that kind of thing).
Deific weapon is basically "your zeal in bearing your deity's weapon makes you more effective with it than some rando would be, unless it's already a good weapon in which case your zeal has negligible effect."
Probably the same reasons that real world religions have prohibitions against eating pork, mixing meat with milk, what kind of underwear you use, how you bathe, requirements for getting dunked in a body of water, and a countless list of other things that one might consider beneath the worries of a God.
What I'm trying to convey isn't that it is silly for gods to care about seemingly minor things. It is that the seemingly minor thing that every god cares about is a weapon.
Not every real world religion has a prohibition against one specific singular food item. Not every religion has a single specific dunking liquid.
I don't think it is weird that Shelyn has a favorite weapon. I don't think it weird that Shelyn's favorite weapon is a glave (given her history). I think it is weird that the one favorite thing of Shelyn's that gets listed is a weapon. Shelyn may well have a favorite weapon, drink, time of day, species of tree, and major road network. But what Shelyn really loves is beauty and art. While Shelyn's favorite weapon may be the glave, it is hard to imagine that what her followers use as a weapon would matter to her. It isn't really in her scope of major concerns.
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Shelyn grants her favor bot just for weilding a glaive, but because a cleric etc. is doing so with the intent to honor what it represents to her.
For many gods I would look at it more like that.
Or, because its coon among the faithful they pass down experience and techniques with it.
I get that. Gods like to be honored. But why favorite weapons? Why not "favorite ways to be honored"? Clerics and Champions will train in a god's beloved skill. That makes more sense to me. Serenrae cares about healing people, and her adherents naturally learn about medicine. But they don't get a medicine boost from Serenrae.
I think lore-wise, listing out favored weapons it is silly. I don't think the mechanical benefits are interesting, and are potentially limiting. I'd hate for a character concept to be undermined by an unwanted favored weapon.
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It would be nice to have a non-weapon option for some gods, maybe something you can wave around for some effect in battle (torches, lanterns, censers, musical instruments, chalices full of blood, that kind of thing).
Asmodeus is pretty heavily associated with torches - to the extent he got multiple different feats for using torches in combat in PF1. Shelyn similarly got feats related to musical performance.
Gods have favored weapons listed prominently because... that's what matters mechanically, really. Inner Sea Gods had plenty of details on non-weapon equipment associated with the deities in its flavor text, but the one thing all Champions and Warpriests will have in common is "hittin' stuff with a weapon" so it's useful to give every deity a weapon to be associated with.
I dunno, maybe it's just me but I think it's cool that every deity has a weapon listed. Giving a flavor justification to a slightly weaker choice than the best available weapon is a good way to encourage diversity.
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One thing about the thematics of favored weapons is that while this is not a thing we can put in a mechanics block for a deity, there is a lot of room for having a weapon which is incredibly thematic for a devout follower of a god which is nonetheless not the deity's favored weapon.
Like my Wrath of the Righteous character was a Shelynite, and at one point in the campaign you come across a powerful glaive that has big evil juju. However the Redeemed affix is for stuff like this and we decided that the ritual to cleanse this glaive involved putting the edge on the opposite side of the blade, so that it was now a fauchard. For another example I had a Sarenrite Paladin who wielded a Falchion that was simply "a really big scimitar."
Putting the thought into "how this specific weapon is appropriate to my faith" is probably even better than "I used this one since it says it's the one to use."
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Right, to me that gets back to the weirdness of Favored Weapon fixation is that it is just so monotonically consistent. Sure, why not some martial Deity has favored weapon that is big deal for them. Nobody has said NO Deity can EVER care about favored weapons. But it's weird that every single Deity must have favored weapon that is equally a big deal to them. Maybe some have a favorite horse to ride. Maybe some have a favorite alchoholic beverage. Etc.
Anyways, there is legacy and metagame reasons why it exists mechancially. To the OP's question, that doesn't mean there is in-world lore reason for every Cleric/Champion to obsess around always using these weapons, or even always carrying them on their person. If you really feel a strong story involving that, then go ahead. But you don't have to, and even within givin Deity's followers/church(es) there can be diversity, there isn't obligatory cookie cutter approach to weaponry just for having same Deity.
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Right, to me that gets back to the weirdness of Favored Weapon fixation is that it is just so monotonically consistent. Sure, why not some martial Deity has favored weapon that is big deal for them. Nobody has said NO Deity can EVER care about favored weapons. But it's weird that every single Deity must have favored weapon that is equally a big deal to them. Maybe some have a favorite horse to ride. Maybe some have a favorite alchoholic beverage. Etc.
I mean, they do. That information is largely collected in the splatbooks that are specifically about faiths and deities. The Core Rule Book doesn't need to spend ink on telling you that Shelyn is closely associated with songbirds because that doesn't have any major mechanical implications unless there's a feat for it (which again, is most appropriate for a Deities-themed book).
I mean, they do. That information is largely collected in the splatbooks that are specifically about faiths and deities. The Core Rule Book doesn't need to spend ink on telling you that Shelyn is closely associated with songbirds because that doesn't have any major mechanical implications unless there's a feat for it (which again, is most appropriate for a Deities-themed book).
But that's the point, and why it feels silly. The mechanics don't reflect the actual individual gods. Shelyn may really love some specific species of songbird, and surely loves songbirds more than weapons, but her mechanics talk about a favorite weapon.
Anyway, regarding OP's question: I'd say that a Champion that does not bear their deity's weapon breaks a very narrow reading of lore, but would generally not violate a more broad understanding. I'd talk to your GM about whether your specific god would care very much.
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It's not even breaking narrow reading of Lore, it's breaking narrow reading of rules fluff. Not same thing IMHO.
And yeah, the point was Deities could place importance on horse, bird etc and NOT on a weapon.
Nethys may have Dagger Favored Weapon, but IMHO few Nethys Clerics actually care about using a Dagger in combat.
If they use a weapon in combat at all, they probably are just as happy to use Stave or anything else.
Favored Weapons may be mechanically standard thing, but that doesn't mean there is consistent lore valuation of them.
It's reasonable to say they all have some ceremonial role at the least, but that doesn't really say much.
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Also you can always both bring your deitys weapon with you and other weapon for specifik situations.
This is what my Redeemer of Shelyn does. He carries around a glaive (at 2 Bulk!) and rarely uses it. I felt like not having one would be disrespectful.
As has been pointed out before, there are no explicit rules consequences for not regularly and zealously using your deity's favored weapon. So it very much depends on your GM. Personally, as a GM, I like the flavor involved and will have the gods be "disappointed" if their followers regularly choose other weapons over their God's favored choice. This is true in particular for the more martial gods, as well as the Champion class, while less martial gods likely care less. This diappointment will initially manifest in flavorful expressions and signs, but as a cleric or champion, you really shouldn't annoy your God too much...
But that is very much a play style decision. Similarly, you could have a goddess of light be mad at a cleric continously using the spell darkness, and maybe withhold granting access to that spell eventually.
If your GM, or you as a GM, think that it should be handled this way, it's probably best to discuss these issues with the group. Some players like the flavor part a lot less and prefer the number-crunching min-max approach of always using the mathematically ideal weapon. That's fine as well, just talk about how it should be handled in your group.
At least for Shelyn, part of the fluff about her and the glaive involves an artifact she has.
I think that maybe temples might have the weapons on hand, perhaps as ceremonial copies, and a champion might have one even in miniature. Plus, as noted earlier, some weapons are just so similar that they can be called otherwise. 'My glaive is ... er, customized.' 'That's fine. Torag's seen fit to bless my warhammer that just happens to have a sharp blade on one side.'
The more warlike gods would probably NOT care about the specific weapon. Iomedae isn't going to fault you for riddling a demon with arrows or fending it off with a halberd, and Gorum would probably only frown slightly at using a wooden club or staff yet relish the idea you're still fighting stuff anyway.
This would suck if it was an enforced rule and part of what makes the Warpriest Cleric bad if you choose the "wrong" deity. Desna has a starknife which is a martial weapon with a d4 damage. There is no way unless the Gods and magic book adds Starknife feats that a Champion of Desna would use a Starknife since every other Martial melee weapon is better and a Bow short or long beats its ranged options.
Similarly a warpriest cleric gets super screwed since they are only expert in their deity's weapon so a Warpiest of Desna has no choice as losing +2 to hit by using a harder hitting martial isn't an option.
Note there is basically a Cannon champion of Shelyn who does not wield a glaive. He wields a big sword instead.
He met with a member of clergy familiar with several of the good gods, and the choice of weapons wasn't anywhere on the scope of being of any issue. The only thing that came up was his choice to wear a Mask. And interesting enough, that didn't really come forth as a challenge to his being a Champion, but instead a question of had he stopped to think through if it was really necessary... that he should ponder and think about it further.
So according to a game developer as GM having a non-favored weapon didn't seem to be worth a bat of the eye. So I don't think anyone else should feel like their Champion or Warpriest should feel compelled to use the favored weapon if they have reason to use another.
(source: Knights of the Everflame)
Also I can think of 2 clerics from 1E ap's who don't use their deity's favored weapon either at all or as their main weapon. Nualia in RotR uses a Bastardsword and a Claw as a cleric of Lamashtu who's favored weapon is falchion, and Meyanda from Iron Gods uses a pistol instead of her deity Hellion's preferred Spiked Gauntlet.
Urgraz one of the Iconic Anti-Paladin of Mazmezz uses a warhammer and shield and a large heavy crossbow instead of the preferred net.
Also Champions are trained in all martial weapons. Why would they bother spending years learning the use of all weapons but be allowed to use only one? Most good deity's preferred weapons seem to be symbolic or just what they happened to use during their "myths". Desna is never pictured with a starknife and most of her followers are merchants, and rangers who use other weapons much more effectively. Also Champions are inately more martial than other followers of non-war deity's and thus when it comes to trading blows they are going to use whatever tools are most effective be that blade, spell or tongue.
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I think you guys are construing "favored weapon" too narrowly.
This is all subjective and IMO, but I think of art when I think "favored weapon." Imagine a painting of Seelah leading the charge against a horde of undead, what does she wield? Undoubtedly, she's portrayed with a longsword. In the actual battle, she may not have used the longsword. But in the art she will be depicted with one. Imagine a bard singing a song about an epic battle involving Kyra. In the actual battle she may have crit with a crossbow; the bard will sing of the minotaur downed with a scimitar. Imagine a priest of Gorum inspecting his acolytes' bunks - he cares that all their weapons are cared for, but people who don't keep their greatsword in good condition get doublr demerits.
The favored weapon is neither (IMO) something that can be ignored all the time, nor is it something that can never be ignored. It is at least a ceremonial weapon that every champion and cleric owns and maintains, and at most the default weapon in combat.
I agree with owning a ceremonial weapon which match the one used by my deity, but especially given how the bulk system now works is not possible anymore.
So a Cleric, or a champion, could own a weapon which is kept in their main Temple, but having to invest 2 bulks to keep a weapon is out of discussion, unless you are active using it as weapon.
It's not out of discussion, but I'll agree it's impractical.
All symbols of devotion are rather impractical. While the rules allow a character to be a nominal follower, if you want a thematically appropriate character, there has to be some sort of personal sacrifice. These gods give their followers the ability to rain fire from the sky or summon angels/demons or raise the dead to life, I can't imagine them being okay with a religious symbol rusting in a box under someone's bed.
But yeah, I completely agree that mechanically, having 2 less Bulk or 4 fewer downtime days/month or burning a feat/skill on something "useless" does mean that your character can't be a fully optimized murderhobo. I think it's a feature, not a bug, of being a champion or cleric.
This is one issue with the thematic tweak of the class between editions I have.
In PF1 it was entirely valid to have a Paladin who did not choose their deity, but was instead chosen by that deity because they lived up to their standards. You could even have a Paladin with no relationship with any deity at all (say you're a Sangpotshi paladin). This person might never pick up their deity's favored weapon and wouldn't think it's an important thing to do anyway.
A lot of these concepts are no longer accessible.
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It's not out of discussion, but I'll agree it's impractical.All symbols of devotion are rather impractical. While the rules allow a character to be a nominal follower, if you want a thematically appropriate character, there has to be some sort of personal sacrifice. These gods give their followers the ability to rain fire from the sky or summon angels/demons or raise the dead to life, I can't imagine them being okay with a religious symbol rusting in a box under someone's bed.
But yeah, I completely agree that mechanically, having 2 less Bulk or 4 fewer downtime days/month or burning a feat/skill on something "useless" does mean that your character can't be a fully optimized murderhobo. I think it's a feature, not a bug, of being a champion or cleric.
No one here has expressed a desire for permission to murderhobo. What a silly accusation. Champions have a Code. The only complete Codes we have so far are for Good deities. If people were looking for excuses to be murderhobo, they'd be arguing against the Champion's Code. In fact, the very first Tenet of Good forbids murder or committing an evil act. I know that my Champion I know my Redeemer enters each encounter with the goal of peaceful interactions and the spreading of his deity's philosophies.
And that really is what the discussion is about. Is there a mechanical requirement to use favored weapons in battle? I think we all agree there is not. Does Champion or Cleric have a lore-based requirement to use, keep, display, etc their deity's weapon?
Well, when I look at my character's deity, the answer seems to be no. Champion's codes begin with the tenet of their alignment. There is nothing there about favored weapons. What about my Chamion's Cause? Nothing there either. But maybe in my Deity's Edicts? "Be peaceful, choose and perfect an art, lead by example, see beauty in all things." Surely there is something about weapons in her Anathema. "Destroy art or allow it to be destroyed, unless saving a life or pursuing greater art; refuse to accept surrender".
There is simply nothing in her nature that indicates she would care about any display or use of a glave. She is a god of love and beauty and art. Yes, she would want her subjects to show devotion through symbols, but if she actually cared about carrying around a glave, it would appear in Edicts.
Now Clerics have some significant fluff, stating that in-universe Clerics do normally fight with favored weapons, and there are more mechanics based around the idea. Every deity's favorite weapon gets a boost. Simple weapons get a damage die step, and martial weapons become trained. But for Champions, there is a single line of fluff about "bearing" a weapon, with no mechanical effects for most deities.
"Ladies and gentlemen, we inform you all that our goddess decided to change her favored weapon, from a dagger to a glaive because of his family problems with his brothers. She stole his brother weapon, and because of that she made up her mind. You are now expected to own a glaive, keep it with you and carry it around the world during your Journeis"
I think this sarcastic paragraph should be taken non-sarcastically.
This is EXACTLY what favored weapon should be. Things that hurt your god hurt you, things that your god loves become things you love.
Shelyn didn't steal Zon Kuthon's glaive out of malice or revenge. She watched her brother turn evil and took his evil glaive away from him as a desperate attempt to stop its influence on him. She keeps the glaive not as a prize but as a symbol that she believes everyone can be redeemed. She doesn't destroy it because she doesn't believe things should be destroyed.
Her clerics and champions carry the glaive not because of its damage dice or critical specialization effects - they carry it because Shelyn does. (My champion is an archer - he doesn't have the strength to wield a glaive effectively.) Clerics and champions resonate with the story of Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon. When they're in church telling that story to kids or in a tavern evangelizing to their fellow adventurers, they pull out a beautiful glaive to show the beauty that Shelyn creates and the darkness that evil can taint with.
If you don't believe this is the way the world works, then simply take a closer look at world religions. Christians have adopted a 2,000 year old method of execution as their religious symbol; Muslims cite the crescent moon from its appearance over important battles. In that context look at art depicting the Crusades - the straight longsword depicting the cross, the scimitar as the crescent. The differences in sword styles evolved with the differences in fighting styles, and the fighting styles evolved with the sword styles - all against the background of religion, which united the armies. Switch the weapons, and while the martial benefits may be the same, it won't look right on the painting.
You're exactly right. It's as ridiculous as it sounds. And if it sounds ridiculous to you, you really shouldn't roleplay a cleric or champion.
No one here has expressed a desire for permission to murderhobo. What a silly accusation.
Murderhobo is a figurative term, not a literal one. It's a designation for characters who are mechanically efficient but lack depth of character.