worg64's page

worg64 wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

it's not necessarily a realism thing so much as it is that, as written fall damage just doesnt matter, by midgame players can jump off cliffs and ramparts with ease and barely get a scratch for it, and jumping off cliffs and castles just isnt an aesthetic I want. As mentioned earlier it also makes spacing into those things more valuable and the people who CAN just hop off a 50 foot fall more special by extension.

I am not trying to persuade you think otherwise in regard to fall and damage.

I just dont see why just fall damage should be more realistic vs other in game damages?

If it comes to damage as written weapon damage dont matter much either, nor a fireball. I mean in real life if you where in a room where someone used a flame thrower on you, you would be a black crisp. In the game your cloth doesnt even get destroyed and you barerly get a dent by the fireball. Realistic not so much.
Same goes for traps, in real life if you got a deadly poison you would surely die but in game you get some lousy d6 damage.

So why is it that you find those types of damage ok but fall damage must be realistic? Thats what I really dont get.

Its all about game balance and having fun, where you need to see the heroes barerly avoid the brunt of the hits and damage they take to be able to survive and fight on.
If you put realism in it, most "heroes" would die in a couple of turns after some encounters.
This game system is just not about realism in regard any damage they take.

Another homebrew regarding shields and their rules.
This is very easy to use and to implement and has worked very well in our combats.

Buckler +1AC, 3 Hardness, 6 Breakvalue, 2 Structure.
Wooden shield +2AC, 3 Hardness, 12 Breakvalue, 3 Structure.
Steel shield +2AC, 5 Hardness, 20 Breakvalue, 3 Structure.
Tower shield +2AC, 5 Hardness, 20 Breakvalue, 3 Structure.
(+4Accover action)

Hardness and Breakvalue for magic shields & special material equal their normal hardness and uses their current hp for breakvalue.

Shields have bonus AC as normal rules when raised and stop an amount of damage equal to their Hardness when blocking as normal.
Shield block can only be used against melee attacks as per rules.

All types of Shield have a fixed breakvalue.
On a normal hit, if the total damage of the attack before reductions equals the BREAKVALUE of the shield, the shield gets one structure damage. (if the shield was used blocking, not otherwise)

On a critical hit, if the total damage of the attack before reductions equals the HARDNESS value of the shield the shield gets one structure damage. (if the shield was used blocking, not otherwise)

OBS: Precision damage and/or non physical damage like poison damage & non leathal damage is NOT counted for structure damage purposes.

When a Shield has structure damage it is damaged but can be used normally. It can be repaired by crafting as normal.
If the shields structure becomes 0 the shield is destroyed and can not longer be used nor repaired.

Repair
ExplorationManipulate
Source Core Rulebook pg. 243
Requirements You have a repair kit.
You spend 10 minutes attempting to fix a damaged item, placing the item on a stable surface and using the repair kit with both hands.
You can repair one structure damage each 10 minutes. The GM sets the DC, but it’s usually about the same DC to Repair a given item as it is to Craft it in the first place.
You can’t Repair a destroyed item.

Shields have bonus AC as normal rules when raised and stop an amount of damage equal to their Hardness when blocking as normal.

All types of Shield have a fixed breakvalue.
On a normal hit and the total damage of the attack before reductions equals the BREAKVALUE of the shield the shield gets one structure damage. (if the shield was used blocking, not otherwise)

On a critical hit and the total damage of the attack before reductions equals the HARDNESS value of the shield the shield gets one structure damage. (if the shield was used blocking, not otherwise)

OBS: Precision damage and/or non physical damage like poison damage & non leathal damage is NOT counted for structure damage purposes.

When a Shield has structure damage it is damaged but can be used normally. It can be repaired by crafting as normal.
If the shields structure becomes 0 the shield is destroyed and can not longer be used nor repaired.

Buckler +1AC, 3 Hardness, 6 Breakvalue, 2 Structure.
Wooden shield +2AC, 3 Hardness, 12 Breakvalue, 3 Structure.
Steel shield +2AC, 5 Hardness, 20 Breakvalue, 3 Structure.
Tower shield +2AC, 5 Hardness, 20 Breakvalue, 3 Structure.
(+4Accover action)

Hardness and Breakvalue for magic shields & special material equal their normal hardness and uses their hp for breakvalue.

Repair
ExplorationManipulate
Source Core Rulebook pg. 243
Requirements You have a repair kit.
You spend 10 minutes attempting to fix a damaged item, placing the item on a stable surface and using the repair kit with both hands.
You can repair one structure damage each 10 minutes. The GM sets the DC, but it’s usually about the same DC to Repair a given item as it is to Craft it in the first place.
You can’t Repair a destroyed item.

1 Fear gravity: cliffs are scary and falling off one should be impressive but in pf its kinda.... not, a level 10 barbarian can fall about 600 feet and have a slightly better than coin flip odds of living, and anything below 300 cannot kill them from full.

House rule: fall damage raises exponentially dealing d6 damage for every 10 feet fallen squared, so 10 feet Is 1d6, 50 feet is 25d6, 100 feet is 100d6 ect.

If you would implement this in regard to reason of realism then you would need to do the same for all damage.

As I see it the damage in game based on combat and hazard is supposed to be viewed in a heroic manner, where the target work with the force and dodge or lessen the damage by any means it can.
Ex by falling the target manage to slow the decend by then and again brake the fall towards the cliff and end up at the last moment getting hold of a branch of tree or bush or similar to just not outright die, or they fall in the water. A 100 feet drop would then still give them 50hp and they would be at the bottom of the fall.

I would suggest you consider less realism into the gaming and more as heroic scenes between heroes and villains.

Well I am more intrested in that they would be using the Pathfinder 2 rules along with the game being turn based.
How they would do the rest I am sure they would do just nicely.

We use only one Lore skill where all Lore abilities use this specifik skill. This because the Lore abilities has few uses and its just never worth having a specifik skill in all of them.
Its not really logical but made for playbalance and makes lore a bit more intresting. That said people very seldom buy it anyway.

We use the combined Strength and Constitution /2 rounded up for forced march tests.
This seem more logical in that it makes the physical classes more able to force march.

We allow intimidation being used by Strength instead of Charisma if the player so like. This seem more logical in that it makes the physical classes more able to intimidate.
ex a barbarian should be good at intimidation. Now he can be.

We have taken away the accuraccy skill feat.
Instead the profficience expert, master and legendary can take a ten instead of a roll in those skills. They do not have the DC before hand but they might have a good opinion.
This to make the easy skill checks more easily managable by the experts+. This seem logical that experts more seldom fail easy tasks.

Well for me there is core rules that are intendent to be used.
You can however change them as well, making houserules.

Then there is the optional rules that are in the core books. these are rules that the GM can allow or not and the player use if allowed by the Gm if they want. Still being optional they are up for debate if they are to be allowed into the game and therefore not the same as core rules. Thats why they are called optional rules.

Variants is taking existing rules and change them so it better fits how you want the rules to work. Like in my case I want more freedom for the players when they create their characters.

Houserules are more including more rules that you see the need for into the game, maybe to get more depth.

But this has now become more about core, optional and variant.
For me that is up to the Gm and players what they want to use and not really why I started this thread.

This thread is really about using a more flexible character creation variant with more freedom when it comes to pick the races and a lot more freedom when it comes where you want allocate your characters attribute points toward their skills.
Use it if you like it and if not, dont. Easy as that :-)
Have fun!

Well I really hope some good and economical sound company decide to do a good rpg based on pathfinder 2ed and that it is turnbased,

I for one really looking forward to that!
maybe Paizo chould talk to some companies they think would be good and intrested!

Malk_Content

Well you are right in that it is written in the core book but it is as said still a optional rule.
You can use that as much as a variant, its up to the GM and players.

But just because there is a rule, a optional rule or variant doesnt mean you can not do more variant rules.
You choose to use what you like.

For me that is a increased freedom in creating the characters when it comes to race and skill. To make them balanced in line with the rules but also unique and fun to play towards what the player want to do,

Yeah given that every ancestry can get 18 in their core stat and all ancestries that dont have a -2 with exactly the same efficiency I just cannot see where that complaint comes from, this is even before we get into the fact that an 18 is a absolutely not required for lots of classes.

This is because that comes from another variant or optional rule.

This variant of mine adress the race issue in regard some classes are better with specifik races, as well as give more freedom to character creation in terms what skills you as a player want your character be good at with.
You are free to choose use it or not as for all variants and optional rules :-)

You are aware of the core Additional Flaws rules, right? Even a gnome can start with 18 strength in this edition, which seems to nullify the need for like... Half of this.

If you feel like lore isn't being used enough.... You're the gm. Make more situations for it to come up. Same with people rolling things other than perception for initiative. Perception was decoupled from the skill system explicitly because it's so universally useful that if you don't boost it at every possible turn, you're holding yourself back. In this system you've proposed, I would feel the need to boost Insight at every possible opportunity.

Yes I am aware that this many good variants out there and you are free to use the ones you want.

Its not a problem include more lore rolls, the problem is that it is very situational and most lore just doesnt seem to have much use.

I agree with you that Perception was excluded from the skills because it was so usefull. To take away the initiative and insight from it, make perception more in line with the other skills albeit still good.
Making Insight its own skill doesnt make it more powerfull.
I am sure you and many other would buy it but many others would prefer other skills and thats the point of this variant of mine. That it lets player choose what skill they are good at when they create them.

Thank you for your input in depth. I appreciate that.
Not to worry, I appreciate any thoughts on the matter.
Let me answer as to your thoughts one by one.

Your first note
"First off - I want to note that I think the race selection way more free then in PF1, you can even pull off a character that has a flaw on a key score - which was basically an invitation for a horrible experience in the first game"

yes that is true but still there is that issue that lacking that vital +2 in the right attribute just make some races better suited for certain classes, something I and my group just think unlogical hence this variant. It doesnt make the races any better or worse than they currently are but make it a option to pick any race you like play without the need to consider a best "race"

1. I see no reason why forced march should be a strength based check instead of fortitude

Thats in purely of balancing and logical reasons. As it is now all classes buy Con. That means physical classes that really should be good in force march and similiar situations are just about equal the mental classes not better as they logical should be. So thats why putting force march under strength makes more sense in terms of gamebalance. If you just look at what the attribute as such I agree that con is per definition the more correct attribute.

That said another option would have been making it str & con to make it more in tune with the attribute, but I just thought it easier doing only str.
Maybe for more sense the str & con combined is a better way in regard to this.

2. Lore is already influenced by intelligence

Yes with current rules but with talent point you can choose your own value 0-4 for the attribute skill value for lore. Lores are also very situational at best and seldom used in game. Making Int attribute get extra lore and all lore use the same skill (lore) give Int some boost in this matter and this is based on game balance. If Int doesnt have extra language, skill point and lore, wisdom will always be a better choice for those classes that doesnt need Int for class purposes because the save it gives.

3. Insight as new skill - okay I can understand that but I think it is well covered with perception. And what would it use to use the skill against performance?

This is done by game balancing reason, Perception as it is are way to good skill to keep as it is.
Thats also the reason I withdrow the initiative from the perception skill. With Initiativ and insight withdrawn from perception I found it more in balance to other skills, it is that said still very good.

4. Lore grouped makes sense with craft and performance grouped, on the other hand is the skill waaaaay to wide to make this really appliccable

Not really, as already said Lore is very situational and seldom used. Normally a character might have some crafts and lores.
Using craft, lore or performance as specifik group skills for this I dont find it to good. I would actually be surprised if they was to be used that much anyway.

5.Thievery max skill point allocation - why only thievery? and maybe this should be noted after how skill point allocation works (forwards reference is...clumsy)

Yes I am sorry for my english,it is as said not my native langauge and writing makes it even harder for me. Ill try to explain.

Skill points with trained and profficency works just like it do now in the current rules. (NO CHANGE)

What I have changed is the "fixed" attribute numbers to respective skills. (Ex strength give athletic, dexterity give thievery)
That I have removed.
Instead basicly all skill attribute values are 0 at start.
Instead of the fixed skill attributes values you get "Talent points" based on your choosen attributes" in total that you can allocate free as you like on the skills.
These free talent points replace the fixed skill attribute numbers for the skills.

Why the Thivery skill has this requirment is because otherwise all classes could put 4 in Thievery and neglect dex and choose strength instead.
Now if you for example has 14 Dex you can at max have a +2 attribute value in Thievery, that said you dont need to apply up to +2 if you dont need to but you can.
If you on the other hand have 18 in Dex you would be able to have up to +4 attribute value in Thievery.
This make only those with max dexterity 18 those that can get maximum in Thievery something I think is good for game balance.

6. I don't understand what the correlation between charisma and talents is supposed to be

The talent points are instead of the fixed skill attribute values.
that you get by your attribute to give together with your proffiency your total value. By giving charisma some extra oost in this regard the value of charisma make it valuable in game balance compared to wisdom and Int.

7.'A negative attribute affect talent point gained.' is very clumsy wording, can you explain and/or rephrase that?
Yes sorry for my english once again.

This means that if you choose to buy the ancestry feat flawed, you get +2 on a attribute and a -2 attribute.
That would decrese a attribute in a negative manner and therefore impact your total talent point you have.

8.the +2 to two stats and -2 on one is without limits what stats, while this allows some freedom I think it would make ancestries less distinct

I agree but this is made for game balancing. If you want a race with a flawed attribute you can choose to have that.

9. talent points are like skill points in pf1?

Talent points are what you in current game would be what you apply to the skills from your attributes.
But instead of a fixed value to a specifik skill you get a toal value that you freely can allocate.

Skill points are what you get from your profficenct and level.

10. what is the difference between charismas 5+1 bonus attribute/talent vs just having 6

It is the same, it is just written like that so people see it is a bonus.

11. also the terms you use seem to be randomly exchanged, it makes following the text very hard

I guess this is due to my bad english.

12. It might be me but I don't get how the bonus points for races are supposed to work

You pick a race.
All races then have two values based of what they start with and what they can get for the extra points some have for balance purpose.
First value is what they get by picking the race in term of value. it is just there for a value estimate. Maybe it would be better get rid of it.
Second value is the point you can buy some extra perk for.
Some races dont have extra points because they alrd gotten so much at start.

EX
Goblin get value of 3pts (race abilities) same what they get now in game, here you do not need do anything.
and have +1pts to buy extra perk for.

Human 1pts +3 pts
get value of 1pts (race abilities) same what they get now in game, here you do not need do anything.
and have +3pts to buy extra perk for.

This is for balance the races somewhat better.

13.punctuation is somewhat irregular, it might help reading if you check that too

Yes well I might need ask somewhat better than me in english writing to do that. I hope you can manage with this and that you can understand the concept.

14. my first impression is that races would loose a lot of their distinctiveness and become ... well, some kind of proto-matter in the form of whatever race you want to play, this also seems very complicated - it is more free from what I can tell, I give you that one.

No the races would be exactly what they are now in terms of apperance, social interaction and have the abilites their races should have. Only difference is that specifik +2 attribues are removed and that will allow you to pick any race together with any class you want to play without the need to feel bad for having tge wrong attribute bonus.
The extra point value some races get are just for balancing issues since some races just are plain better in normal rules.

Hope this clear some questions up, but maybe I have made it worse :-)

Has anyone some solid fact in regard to some company making or considering a PC game for Pathfinder 2?
Yes I know there is for pathfinder 1 but I would really like a Pathfinder 2e PC game since I find the balance so much better in 2e.

Any news?

Forgot to write

Initiative

Dexterity attribute bonus & Proficiency (the same as your perception)
If you stealth you use that skill as your initiative.

Character Creation Variant

Hope youll understand my notes, english its not my native language.Sorry!

Due too the very rigid character creation in terms on that you need specifik "best" race for specifik class and that your class always get the same skills in what you are good, the game become rather static and rigid.
I have therefore created this variant for more freedom and flexibility.

Basicly you start with 10 in all attributes and allocate 18pts-
(Min four 12s and max one 18 attribute.
(Ancestry, background, class & free stats at creation do not longer generate attribute points).
This make it possible to pick any race for any class without the need to feel you picked a poor choice. Also for balance purpose the races with little race abilities get a short amount of compliment points to balance them.

You can buy a flawed character one +2 and one -2 to attribute but it now cost one ancestery feat. (still max one 18 however.
A flawed attribute also gives less talent points, see below.

Secondly the big difference instead of a fixed attribute value to your skill you get a total number of talent points based on your total attributes that you can allocate freely on your skills up to max 4.
The gain in this is that characters get the freedom to create unique and fun characters without upsetting the balance of the game.

Information changes in regard to normal rules for balance as follow:

Attributes
(Ancestry, background, class & free stats at creation do not longer generate attribute points)

Strength Forced march or fatigue roll you use the strength attribute
Dexterity You use dexterity for initiative
Intelligence Intelligence attribute now also affect lore abilities
Charisma Charisma attribute now affect talent points

Skill
Insight New skill (Used vs Deception or Performance, targets choise)

Lore All lore abilities use the same lore skill!
(That is for every lore you have you use the same lore skill for them)

Perception (No longer include initiative & Insight)

Thievery
(Dexterity value ability modifier is max possible skill talent allocation)
(That is you can’t have higher in your talent for thievery than your dexterity attribute bonus)

Feats
Flawed Ancestry Feat: gain +2 pts one stat -2 one stat. A negative attribute affect talent point gained

Talented General Feat: You get 2 extra talent points. Charisma 12 is required.

NPC have the normal rules stat and class allocation. Only the Heroes use this rules.

• Allocate attribute 18 pts (see Below)
• Chose Ancestry
• Chose Ancestry complements if you ancestry get balance points
(see Below)
• Chose Background (Only get skill, skill feat, skill trainings)
• Choose Class
• Allocate skills points based on attribute in intelligence, ancestry,
class and backgrounds.
• Allocate feats and abilities based on ancestry, class and backgrounds.
• Allocate your total talent points based on your attributes on your
skills. (See below)
(Talent points are flexible points based on your character stats instead of the normal fixed values)

Attributes
10 in all attributes + 18 pts to allocate(Min four 12 stats and max one 18 (Even with feat flawed)
(Ancestry, background, class & free stats do not longer generate stat points)

Ancestry Feat: Flawed +2 pts one stat -2 one stat. A negative attribute affect talent point gained.

Talents (Instead of the normal fixed attribute allocation for skills)
Skill talents points at start. (Max four in a talent)
Strength attribute x2
Dexterity attribute x3
Constitution attribute x0
Intelligence attribute x 5
Wisdom attribute x5
Charisma attribute x5 and bonus attribute x1.

An 8 in an attribute affect as follow.
Strength attribute 8, - 2 talent points.
Dexterity attribute 8, -3 talent points.
Constitution attribute 8, -0 talent points.
Intelligence attribute 8, - 5 talent point. (And lose one lore ability & skill point and one language).
(If that would require you to lose common you keep it but cannot read & write)
Wisdom attribute 8, - 5 talent points.
Charisma attribute8, -5 talent point s and a further -1 talent point.

Total your talent points based on your attributes and you can then allocate them freely to the skills
Important Thievery (Dexterity value ability modifier is max possible skill talent allocation)

When you gain an attribute increase you also gain additional skill talents based on your increased attribute allocation. You may only increase a talent one point per skill at each attribute increase time.
You may now have max 5 in a talent.

Strength attribute +2
Dexterity attribute +3
Constitution attribute +-0
Intelligence attribute + 5
Wisdom attribute +5
Charisma attribute +5 and bonus attribute +1.

Ancestries
Your race gets ancestry compliment points to spend to balance the races in accordance with start abilities.
(Ancestries with lowlight from start that can gain Darkvision by heritage gain +1pts to buy compliments for)

Race (Starvalue pts) Extra point to buy for
Dwarf 3pts +1pts

Elf 4pts +0pts

Gnome 2 pts +2pts

Goblin 3pts +1pts

Half-Elf 2 pts +2pts

Halfling 0 pts +4 pts

Half-Orc 2 pts +2pts

Hobgoblin 4pts +0pts

Human 1pts +3 pts

Leshy 2pts +2pts

Lizardfolk 2pts +2pts

Shoony 1pt +3 pts

Ancestry compliments you can buy based on your bonus point

1pt Hp+2 (Max 10)
1pt Skill feat
1pt 2 extra languages
1pt 2 Lore abilities
3pt Dual Background (Human & Halfling only)

Heritage All ancesteries as normal gain one heritage.

Physical attributes
Str 10 (Forced march & carry capacity)
Dex 10 (Initiative. Ref save)
Con 10 (Hp, Fort save, disease & poison save)
Mental attributes
Int 10 (Extra lore abilities, skill points, & languages)
Wis 10 (Will save)
Cha 10 (Extra talent points)

Skills
Acrobatic
Athletics
Craft
Perception (No longer initiative & Insight)
Stealth
Survival (Camp. cover track, track, sense direction, foraging)
Thievery (Dexterity value ability modifier is max possible skill talent allocation)

Deception
Diplomacy
Insight (new skill)
Intimidation
Lore (Same skill is used for all Lore abilities you have obtained)
Medicine
Perform
Society (Social structures, history, culture, forgery, decipher writing)

Arcana
Nature
Occultism
Religion

Let me know if you have any questions. Have fun!

Also you can always both bring your deitys weapon with you and other weapon for specifik situations.

Intresting class and good conversion to P2ed.
However there is one thing I dont like and thats the elemental type damage the bloodhunter gets.
I would very much so prefer necrotic damage to its attack and with some flavor maybe poison damage could be included as well

Just my 2 cents

Add skill feat accuraccy for medicine, get expert in medicine and you always succed DC 15 at lv 2. 10+6=16
DC 20 at lv 6. 10+10=20
Or later level if you wait with expert.
With Continual Recovery and Ward Medic
You can heal two targets each 10min for 2d8 healing at lv2-3 and at lv 6-7 2d8+10, pretty good i would say without risk.

Thank you for info and thread.

The cleric is a awesome class.
Have no fear of that.
If you go for a fighting cleric go warpriest
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 14
At level 5 and 10 you raise
Str, Con, Wis and Cha.
This will give you melee capability, ok spell casting and good healing.
I would suggest 2-h weapon for max melee damage and shield cantrips for some extra AC. You will notice you will do well in most situations only problem is to have enough action for all.

I would like to know if any of the Lizardfolk subraces has the ability to get darkvision.
Also Intresting to know if they got any good feats for thivery/stealths or combat.

Thanks

Anyone know if any of the lizardfolk subraces will have the option of darkvision?

Absolutly Captain Morgan.

I would actually like to play a Lizardfolk me being a rogue but would prefer to have darkvision but I dont think they have.

I can start with the info I have but I rather not if I get anything wrong thats why I asked if anyone had more info in regard to race options and feat 1 but I guess most of that info a few have and they might not share it as of now, Well it was worth a try ;.(

Well put and intresting thoughts. This make it even more intresting with a free hand.

They already exist on this forum so I dont think we need to keep it a secret.
It is Under the threads

Lost Omens Products
Paizo Blog: You're A Lizard, Harry
Paizo Blog: Love 'Em Or Leaf 'Em
I cant find the hobgoblin just now but it should be there as well otherwise you can see it on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx_dl3tuxRw
Pathfinder also has made a movie where they discuss them so it is no secrets
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENSxR9TXbJ0
By designer Mark Seifner where they make a leaf champion character from scratch and talk about the new coming races as well.

I was just wondering if someone has the full three races choises and feats for level 1 to share?
It might well be that noone has or that you cant share it at moment until officially released.
I have seen the stats and one feat but would need more to be able to choose.

We are to start the Ash campaign this saturday and some of these new races seems very intresting and I would like to be able to see if any of them was to my liking now.
I dont really want to change ancestery after when I have started playing hence my question.

Yes that fighter reaction is nice but it only triggers against melee attack now so not always you get it, but I will look into that, might very well be a better option along with shield block as well. You cant use that with parry. Parry only gives +2 AC.

Sentry dedication is something I have missed.
Found it, the lastwall sentry. hmm need to have shieldblock first thats a issue. I will have to look into that.

I usally dont need too make many athletics roll, is there something specifik you had in mind regarding atletic?

Thanks for your input :-)

Great thanks for your input. Guess its a str 14 build then and Rogue/Fighter build :-)

Is there any spell focus or cantrips that would give +2 AC?
I have found +1 shield like shield and bard inspire defense but not any that does +2 AC.

I would take him aside to not enbarese him and and in a kind manner tell him you has noticed he has issues with the rules and ask him what you and he together can do to make it work better for all? Explain that you will do Your best to support him but that he really need to get to terms with the basic rules and if he is not prepered to do that,he wont be able to continue play. That said be supporttive and kind during Your talk and try reason with him in a friendly manner the importance of this to get a good gameflow and atmosphere.
If he understand the reasoning why it is important and his own responsibility in this matter you might convince him to do better.

Thanks for your input and effort. Mountain stronghold requires mountain stance and as same for the fighter str 14 to get monk multiclass so not really a option either I am sorry to say.

The problem I have in this build is that I rather dont go
fighter or monk multiclass because that would need str 14 something I rather not do since I am going thief all dex to hit and damage.

I could use a normal shield for the +2 AC but I would rather have a parry +2 ac effect since I would like to have one hand free for other purposes.
And since I dont have shield block I might as well have parry rather than shield.

I can go duelist but that require me to use two general feats into it to meet the prerquisite and it would make me obtain parry either at lv8 or lv10 somewhat late depending on race.

So any other good idea how to get a kind of parry effect +2 AC with free hand?
If there is any?

Thanks

correct I mean +2 ac as a shield raised for all attacks

I for one would find con intresting for sorcerors as their spellcasting ability. Maybe for some specifik bloodline. But it might make them to good since then they would only need con, dex as their stats. I guess thats the main reason they have charisma as such.

As the subject say I would like to know what feat there is currently in pathfinder 2ed that gives the character a +2 circumstance AC for a action with a weapon and a free hand.

I have found two so far.

DUELING PARRY [one-action] FEAT 2 Fighter

ALDORI PARRY [one-action] FEAT 4 Archtype Aldori Duelist

Is there any other of this kind of feat that you know about?

Myxih "Femme Fatale" Gnome(Umbral) Rogue(Thief) CN alignment

She is a innocent looking but beautifull female gnome that uses her charms to get her way in life, She acts the weak, whimsical lady in dire need of salvation but under the lovely mask she is a ruthless, uncaring, egoistic b!$&# that do whatever neccessary to get her goals fullfilled.She has a background as a field medic where she learned the medicine and acted much as the lovely sweet nurse while at the same time she gladly plundered the poor wounded or dead soldiers she come across. Here she also learned the basic of fighting where she also saw the need to take care of her own wounds from bad encounters and hence she wanted to learn the healing craft, not for care of others but because of her own selfish care.
Now she has heard of the goblins very sneak way to sneak around more easily and that is her next goal to learn from any willing goblin to teach her. (at level 3 obtain adopted ancestry goblin)
Her strength is a minus but she uses her dex to deadly effect in battle and her sweet deamenor to make other carry her things in her travels with a carefull eye nothing disappear.

Stats
Str 8 -1
Con 14 +2
Dex 18 +4
Int 10 +2
Wis 14 +2
Cha 14 +2
Skills
Thievery
Stealth
Diplomacy
Deception
Performance
Athletic
Acrobatic
Survival
Arcane
She is to learn society
She will then go expert in thievery and Stealth as well as diplomacy, deception and performance.
She has excellent saves all expert as well as expert perception.
Deadly in combat and a jack of all trade when it comes to skills.
At start she will be using shield, where later on she might instead get the shield cantrip or fighter dual to obtain +2 ac with 1h weapon.

Many intresting thoughts and insights.

For me the need to finetune the balance of the stats made me rethink.
How about a finetune then when it comes to talents.Instead of removing the stats from the skills altogether with a fixed amount of talent, why not keep the stats and give the players some lesser amount of talent points.

I suggest each class have 10talent point to distribute to increase the stats for the skills only.
The amount of talent Point is a balancing issue but I would guess around 10 Points would be sufficient and feel good for each class.

The character get to increase the current stat for his choosen skill he have with his talent point, up to the amount of talent point he has.
A Stat for a specifik skill could max be increased to +4)

EXAMPLE: A Ranger have put 14 in wisdom. That gives him +2 in perception from his wisdom in the perception skill. He wants to be a better scout so he put +2 in perception from his talent points to increase his stat for perception only for a new total of +4 from his stat. Talent Points only help increase stats in specifik skill choosen. He uses his remaining talent point on other skills.

This would give some much needed freedom for players and open up for more roleplaying even among classes that normally can not contribute in skill challnges.

For me it is without doubt the current skill system that is extremly static and boring that need to be opened up and get some more freedom and flexibility!

As the current skill system work you get plenty of classes that really cannot contribute at all in skill challenges and even worse at specifik skills since the stats are what decides what skill the classes are strong in.Even in skills they are supposed to be good they cannot because that skill have the wrong stat.
This really hamstring the roleplaying aspect of the game as well where a player never can choose what skill he can be trully good at.

I suggest each class have 10(Can be a different number, balance issue) talent point to distribute to increase the stats for the skills only.
The character get to increase the current stat for his choosen skill he have with his talent Point, up to the amount of talent Point he has.
Stat for a specifik skill could max be increased to +4)

Ex A Ranger have put 14 in wisdom. That gives him +2 in perception from his wisdom in the perception skill. He wants to be a better scout so he put +2 in perception from his talent points to increase his stat for perception only. Talent Points only help increase stats in specifik skill choosen. he uses his remaining talent Point on other skills.

The amount of talent Point is a balancing issue but I would guess around 10 Points would be sufficient and feel good.

Another possibility would have have some feats included for each class that let the class choose a different stat for a specifik skill.
But this might be to expensive in terms of feats.

Not much comments or action these days in the forums. Have all already started thinking on the holidays and are tired of the playtests?
I sure hope not because this is the time to make the difference to make the Pathfinder 2 a great game!

The current skillsystem!

Is it just me and my game group that find the current skillsystem static and boring?

Our game group have now started with free allocation of point instead of the current fixed stats and all players are happy how it has turned out.

The characters really has come to live and now there is a big difference on the characters. Makes for more fun and fluffy roleplay.

Keep the hard good work up!

Please do something to the static and unflexible skill system while you are at it.

Well explained Mathmuse. You take a good example and explain it in depth what is the problem with the current skill system.

The current skill system is extremly rigid as it is now working both in terms of abilities(stats) allocation as well as class choices in those that must be done.

Allocating talent instead of abilities(stats)open up the skill to a more fluid and flexible system with the roleplaying in focus for players.

And I agree with Barnabas Eckleworth III
Basically you just allocating your bonus instead of it being pre-decided by stats to the skills in my suggestion.
Still it would be easy to implement and work well in the current system.

You are also right on your concern Barnabas Eckleworth III regarding the stats. You wrote:
The only problem I really see is it would place less importance on stats. Wisdom for non-divine casters would only matter for Will save, basically.

The mental stats are as they are a bit underwhelming.
Int would just give exyta skill Points, WIS would just give will save and Cha would just give resonance Points. STR would also only be a dump stats for casters.

But that is a matter of balance and can be fixed by allocating some more abilities to those stats.

In fact In the current system those stats are underwhelming as they are for all melee classes,
Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins etc etc all take high STR, DEX; CON and have 10-12 at best a single 14 in the mental stats.

Don't take this as any jab. But I have no idea what I just read. I opened the post and saw a big long thing of a bunch of numbers, glanced at it, and hit the back button on my browser.

Maybe it's that I just got off a 12 hour shift. I might try again after a shower and coffee.

Well it might very well be your 12h shift :-) but it might as well be my poor English. Its not my native language and while I can speak rather well my writing has a lot to desire.

I hope you have some patience with me and take the time to read it because it is not really that difficult.

But here is the short version:

1 Remove abilities from the skills (stats)
2 Replace those removed abilities with fixed amount of Talent Point that you allocate yourself to the skills. ( 3 of each of +4, +3, +2, +1)
(with stat increase you get 4 x +1 each time more talent points)

This to get a much more free and flexible skill system.
By being able to choose where the talents are located you actually get better at the skills you want your character to be able to use.
Currently the skills are veryrigid due to the stat allocation to the skills. Hope this helped :-)

In the adventure Doomsday our playtest Group found the DC ALL to high, especially the DC for climb, seek and disarm. Most or all is above DC 16 up to 21.
This together with the current skill system where you get plenty of classes that really cant contribute at all in skill challenges or are downright deadly for themself trying to use skills. Several of our player feel they couldnt contribute when it comes to skill challenges at all.
Examples Most classes cant climb or sneak!
Also the current skill system makes for highly static and unrealistic characters bound as they are by their classes need for specifik abilities.
This makes for a really boring and anti roleplaying game since you as a player cant roleplay your character as you want for the fluff.

Even worse is that some skills some classes should logical be good at they are not.
Examples: Intimidation Barbarian, they have no charisma so they are useless in this.
Rangers and Rogues that dont have wisdom and are bad in Perception, instead you have Clerics and Druids being the uber scouts! I mean where is the logic in this?

Worst of all is that you as a player have no freedom at all on what skills you should be good at because how the abilities affect the skills. Not only that there really is no flexibility on what skills you can learn and I for one as well as my playgroup would find it fun and logical as well as flexible if you could pick the skills you would want to be talented in.
Example if you want a Performing Druid you could, or a Occult intrested Fighter or why not a Acrobatic Paladin to mention a few.

Solution to this is easy.
Remove Abilities from skills!
Include talents for skills.

Talent points should exchange the current abilities Points from the skills.

Each character should get Talent Points to allocate to the skills
3x+4, 3x+3,3x+2, 3x+1 (Instead of current fixed abilites/skills)
Each stat increase thereafter you would get 4 more talent point to allocate.
You could then raise current talents by +1 to a max 0f +4
(+5 if you have a 20+ ability)

This would make for a really free and flexible skill system where roleplaying and freedom to be who you want is at focus!

Example: You want to make a silvertounged Diplomatic Wizard with a criminal background that actually are good at what he should be.
You pick
+4 talent in Diplomacy and get trained in the skill
+4 talent in Deception and get trained in the skill
+4 talent in Thievery and get trained in the skill
+3 talent in in Arcana and get trained in the skill
+3 talent in Stealth and get trained in the skill
+3 talent in Perception and get trained in the skill
+2 talent in Performance and get trained in the skill
+2 talent in Athletic and get trained in the skill
+2 talent in Acrobatic and get trained in the skill
+1 talent in Social and get trained in the skill
+1 talent in Lore and get trained in the skill
+1 talent in Craft and get trained in the skill

It might be that you can not train all your choosen skills just as it now due to to few skill but these you can train up along the way or ignore much as it works now

THIS would really make a free and fun character with their own personality and make a lof of different types of personalities even within the same classes.

A truly flexible and intresting skill system for all characters regardless of Abilities and classes!

And it is EASY to implement within the current system as well!

As the current skill system work you get plenty of classes that really cant contribute at all in skill challenges.
Examples Fighters and Barbarians that only are good at athletic pretty much useless in rest.

Even worse is that some skills some classes should logical be good at they are not.
Examples: Intimidation Barbarian, they have no charisma so they are useless in this.
Rangers and Rogues that dont have wisdom and are bad in Perception, instead you have Clerics and Druids being the uber scouts! I mean where is the logic in this?

Worst of all is that you as a player have no freedom at all on what skills you should be good at because how the abilities affect the skills. Not only that there really is no flexibility on what skills you can learn and I for one as well as my playgroup would find it fun and logical as well as flexible if you could pick the skills you would want to be talented in.
Example if you want a Performing Druid you could, or a Occult intrested Fighter or why not a Acrobatic Paladin to mention a few.

Solution to this is easy.
Remove Abilities from skills!
Include talents for skills.

Talent points should exchange the current abilities Points from the skills.

Each character should get Talent Points to allocate to the skills
3x+4, 3x+3,3x+2, 3x+1 (Instead of current fixed abilites/skills)
Each stat increase thereafter you would get 4 more talent point to allocate.
You could then raise current talents by +1 to a max 0f +4
(+5 if you have a 20+ ability)

This would make for a really free and flexible skill system where roleplaying and freedom to be who you want is at focus!

Example: You want to make a silvertounged Diplomatic Wizard with a criminal background that actually are good at what he should be.
You pick
+4 talent in Diplomacy and get trained in the skill
+4 talent in Deception and get trained in the skill
+4 talent in Thievery and get trained in the skill
+3 talent in in Arcana and get trained in the skill
+3 talent in Stealth and get trained in the skill
+3 talent in Perception and get trained in the skill
+2 talent in Performance and get trained in the skill
+2 talent in Athletic and get trained in the skill
+2 talent in Acrobatic and get trained in the skill
+1 talent in Social and get trained in the skill
+1 talent in Lore and get trained in the skill
+1 talent in Craft and get trained in the skill

It might be that you can not train all your choosen skills just as it now due to to few skill but these you can train up along the way or ignore much as it works now

THIS would really make a free and fun character with their own personality and make a lof of different types of personalities even within the same classes.

A truly flexible and intresting skill system for all characters regardless of Abilities and classes!

And it is EASY to implement within the current system as well!

I want to take a moment to discuss the relevance of Channel Energy, Charisma, and their overly strong impact on the Cleric class. If we stripped both of those away from the Cleric, the class would be extremely weak and bare bones. The class has too many feats to expand on Channel Energy, and with the new nerf to Channel Energy uses, it makes Charisma much more impactful to the class, as the ratio from stat to base uses changed as well. Prior to these changes, Channel Energy also felt like a mandatory party feature in a game that wasn't supposed to require players playing a certain type of class or role.

On top of that, the raw power from Channel Energy spirals way out of control once you apply levels, as now you're having that much more spell power compared to others. Consider at the end game, you can heal as a 10th level spell upwards of six times compared to any other class whom would be foolish to do it even once, and don't ever get bonus 10th level spell slots. That's an insane amount of power gained compared to anyone else's 20th level feat, and is not something that changing the ratio of channel energy uses solves.

To that, I propose a complete rewrite of Channel Energy to be more along the lines of how current power scaling of other classes work (and compared to PF1's channel energy):

___

Channel Energy

The cleric gains the ability to channel the energy of his/her deity's will onto others. The Cleric gains one additional spell per day per spell level they can cast, which coincides with his/her deity's channel focus. If the deity uses positive energy, the cleric gains an additional Heal spell per spell level prepared for the day. If the deity uses negative energy, the cleric gains an additional Harm spell per spell level prepares for the day. If a deity allows a choice between either positive or negative, the cleric must decide which form of energy they channel, and receive one spell per spell level based on their choice of energy, and once chosen, this cannot be changed....

I find it really bad that cleric should need to put Point in charisma to get channeling.

Not only does it make them have difficulty to heal it makes them need to spread out their abilities on several stats more than other classes,
Str for being able to fight ok
Dex for AC and ref save,
CON for HP and Fort save
WIs for DC spells, healing and Wis save
Cha to be able to get channeling.

This make cleircs really not balanced at all.
A worse it makes Clerics go wisdom 10 instead a really silly thing!

IF you feel the need to lower the Channeling
give them a fixed 2 instead
OR let it go on CON instead.
The need to being able to focus the divine force through your body.

I personally and neither of my playtest see the need to lower the clerics abilities to heal anyway!

Not only that but "I am functional in heavy armor" is for some reason genetic and therefore mutually exclusive with "I am hard to poison" and "I am magic resistant" and "I live in the desert."

I find it extremly unrealistic that dwarf are the only race woth 20 speed.

Secondly that Dwarf in Heavy armor is not possible make it even more unrealistic since Dward should be able to wear Heavy armor without massive speed penaly.

I suggest all Dwarf get 25 speed as well as 5 feet less armor speed penalty.

This is just a suggestion so no need to get defensive about it or taking it to the extreme. Its allright if you like it or if dont like it, I am just trying a different approach from what has been in the past.

Its not about the spell casters always cast all their spells nor that they dont understand the need of keeping spells to end of the day in case needed. But sometimes especially in lower level, some bad luck in a normally easy encounter forces players hand and also sometimes players guess wrong in how many encounters there will be before rest.
But most of all in lower levels where you only have some 2-6 spells a day its not really fun, just going around using cantrips all the time.

My suggestion with encounter spells/powers instead of dailys makes them easier to keep track for both GM and players.
It makes an early bad luck less hurtful and most important it makes the balancing of encounter for the GM a lot easier, since no need to consider what will happen in end fight if players dont have a Power left. It is just a matter of game flow rather than a logical view.

As far as "encounter Powers being a highly unrealistic approach compared to Daily Powers I dont agree at all with this.
Being a "normal" approach with dailys doesnt make it more realistic. We are talking magic here after all.
Just because the game untill now has been using Daily Power doesnt per see make that more logical. This is a second edition where we are to find new ways to make the game more streamlined and fun, and I Think this would make it more fun and easier for both GM and players.

As for Encounter power rather than Daily power you could well state a spellcaster has a limited power to handle and controll power during a fixed amount of time before the need to rest shortly to regain said power. Like a drain as for example shadowrun uses.
Experience would increase their ability to cast more spells and more often. It not more unrealistic than being able to cast 30 spells a day where you can cast the same spell over and over.
And as in regard to metagaming it actually hinders that with Daily Powers, now you would have the encounters power you have and can not use all your Daily spells at once and then require you need a Daily rest before you can continue. Being out of spells/Powers make people metagame to avoid need go further Before they have rested. It makes for a slower game with less fun being in situations with no heal or spells because then players will do their best to avoid continue.

"Ok guys I am out of heal spells here and I have no fireballs left, lets take a rest shall we"
Not very fun but seen all to often.

That as you say "it just so happens that Paizo wants it to work this way, and not the other way" does not mean that they can not change how they want it to work. Thats after all the whole Point of a new edition,and us playtesting the game. They want changes that work better than before.The game will change! Hopefully into something more fun!

The speed is not 25 for all races just a note

I am just curious if any other player group out there have this issue as our group has with the Daily abilities/powers/spells. Especially now with less spells /day. What have happened a couple of times now is that our spell casters when playing use up their spells rather early into the game session and then they feel pretty useless with only cantrips or low to hit weapon attacks. They just dont have a fun time.

This also make them all to often want to hide out and rest and to continue first again when they have gotten their spells back. Same goes for when the party lose all their healing and are afraid to continue because of that. Or worse use all spells up in a inferno of Power and then get back to base and lay low untill they can go out again.

Here I would like to discuss if the former encounter powers from 4th ed and short rest power from 5th ed D&D could be a better option for many reasons and getting rid of the Daily Powers/spells all together.

Encounter Powers would make the game more fun and take away the need of constant need for rest as well that you wouldnt need to keep track of the spells over all day. It also could take away the need for keeping track of buffs time.

Now with the spells nerfed as well as having less spells a change to encounter power ONLY could be that all spell casters got their spells back after each encounter instead.
Make the really strong spells cost 3 actions to cast.
Might be need of taking away 1 spell slot/encounter?

Make the spells into attack spells, buff spells and utiliy spells.
Attack spell could be used once/encounter unless cantrips.
Buff spells when cast was valid the entire encounter or untill dispelled or lost concentration if a spell needed that.
Utility spells is spells used under encounters for tactical benefits like moves similiar or could be used out of combat.

It would get rid of the need of hunkering down taking rest all time untill all Daily Powers was back but it would also make the encounters more intresting and more fluid I
...

I realise this is a rather long step towards what has been and also that it make people think of 4th edition that many didnt like for various reasons.

However this really has nothing to do with 4th edition but instead it is all about getting a more fluid and fun play for all involved as well as making the game more easily handled for both experienced as new players and important it also makes it a LOT easier for the GM to handle game balance in encounters since you know what the players have in terms of power, something that now many times become a issue.
As a spell caster you would still need to think carefully when and where you use your spells because they are limited in every encounter but you would have strong impact in all situations and not as it is now limited in many situations.

You could of course as some suggested keep the really powerfull spells as dailys but then you would be back toward having to keep track of those and again the main problem with people not wanting to continue because they dont have their best spells avaiable any more.
This is the point of this suggestion to get rid of Daily Powers and the bottleneck of people not wanting to go on.

I think if you just actually consider the proposal without putting any substance of what has been and what is right you could come to like this idea for its simplicity for game issues and for its handling of lack of resources towards future encounter. In part it has already been tried in some limited cases like the warlock in 5th ed but on a more complex way and that worked well.

Just my 2cents.

I am just curious if any other player group out there have this issue as our group has with the Daily abilities/powers/spells. Especially now with less spells /day. What have happened a couple of times now is that our spell casters when playing use up their spells rather early into the game session and then they feel pretty useless with only cantrips or low to hit weapon attacks. They just dont have a fun time.

This also make them all to often want to hide out and rest and to continue first again when they have gotten their spells back. Same goes for when the party lose all their healing and are afraid to continue because of that. Or worse use all spells up in a inferno of Power and then get back to base and lay low untill they can go out again.

Here I would like to discuss if the former encounter powers from 4th ed and short rest power from 5th ed D&D could be a better option for many reasons and getting rid of the Daily Powers/spells all together.

Encounter Powers would make the game more fun and take away the need of constant need for rest as well that you wouldnt need to keep track of the spells over all day. It also could take away the need for keeping track of buffs time.

Now with the spells nerfed as well as having less spells a change to encounter power ONLY could be that all spell casters got their spells back after each encounter instead.
Make the really strong spells cost 3 actions to cast.
Might be need of taking away 1 spell slot/encounter?

Make the spells into attack spells, buff spells and utiliy spells.
Attack spell could be used once/encounter unless cantrips.
Buff spells when cast was valid the entire encounter or untill dispelled or lost concentration if a spell needed that.
Utility spells is spells used under encounters for tactical benefits like moves similiar or could be used out of combat.

It would get rid of the need of hunkering down taking rest all time untill all Daily Powers was back but it would also make the encounters more intresting and more fluid I feel.
A short rest catching your breath 1min (or 5min) during no combat would get you the encounters Powers/spells back.

What you guys Think of this?
Sorry if this has been discussed Before. Just putting my 2cent in here

Thanks for your comments but they wasnt really in tune of my post.

I was mainly talking about the current balance between a spellcaster with 1 melee strike and 1 spell cast versus a melee class that makes 3 strikes. I find the melee class rather weak in compare.

As it is a spellcaster in reach can make a melee attack without penalty and also make a spell attack without penalty. The spells also get increaingly better with higher level due to heightened spells.

A melee class on the other hand can make three melee attacks, one strike without penaly, the second strike with a -5 penalty and a third strike with a -10 penalty.

I dont really see the balance in how it works now.
The melee classes need a strong increase in this, maybe like a extra strike for theirs first attack when they reach level 11.

Also the dual weapon fighing needs to be clarified, I havent seen any about this. Any good thread I could read in this topic?