Ranger Snares... Incomplete design?


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So this came up when discussing a character build for a ranger. Ranger Snare Specialist Feat, and Snares in the wider PF2 system feel unfinished and borderline broken as is.

When creating a snare, you use the base Craft activity. Fair enough, that makes sense. The base Craft activity allows you to craft any item with the Consumable trait (which all snares have) in batches of up to four with one check and as part of the same activity. Looking at crafting snares, we see that a snare must be created within a single 5-foot square. However there is no limitation to the number of snares that can inhabit that same 5-foot area. This creates a rather odd scenario:

Jim the Ranger hits level 4 and takes Snare Specialist. He is now able to create 4 snares without paying their cost (excepting any additional crafting requirements of course) per day, and if they normally take 1 minute to craft, he can do so in 3 interact actions. Rules as worded, Jim the Ranger can use the Craft activity to place all 4 of his "free" snares in the same square with 3 actions. Let's use Biting Snare as an example because it has 0 additional crafting requirements. This leads to some unlucky enemy stumbling into 4 basic reflex saves against a base damage of 20d6. This feels very strong for a level 4 character to be able to do, even if only once per day.

It gets a step stronger when you consider the defensive ramifications. Let's say that your party has a home base. Why wouldn't the ranger spend their down time days priming the home base with 4 snares per day for any unlucky invaders? Since there is no "duration" or decay of even the Rangers free snares, this is possible.

Nothing in the rules disagrees with this as written. I believe that this is an artifact created by taking a normally downtime activity and trying to use it's rules for an in combat action.

As a houserule to discourage abuse I have set down that snares cannot be placed in the same 5 foot square as another Snare. Additionally a ranger can only "craft" one snare at a time using his 3 action feats. Snares can still be crafted in batches during downtime, but their locations cannot be an unreasonable distance apart (read this as usually in the same "room" or area) otherwise they do not count as a batch and must be crafted singularly with separate checks.

Am I just misreading the rules here, or are Snares woefully undeveloped?


Remember that now days can extend for a long time.

With the 10 min breaks you could probably even face 20 encounters per day.

A single enemy who steps on your mass trap will take a high amount of damage and it could even be obliterate, but it is just for 1 enemy, who had the misfortune.

A medium roll for 20 d6 is 60 dmg

A success against 60 dmg is 30 dmg taken

Since they are 4 traps, 4 st are required.

Let's say that an enemy fail 2 out of 4.

45 dmg taken.

A lvl 4 creature should have from 50 ho to 90, depends the creature.

To me it could be fine to consider an exploit placing infinite traps on the same spot, but since the daily cd it doesn't seem something that dangerous.

Remember also that, depends the place you are, some traps could require more time, even depends your DM, or be impossible to realize.


Regardless of the efficacy of the tactic, which does have some pitfalls for sure, that doesn't address the primary point: This system doesn't seem to work as intended. It doesn't make sense that a character could place 4 snares in the same turn for 3 actions. Something in those rules needs to be clarified as to how the designers intend for it to work.

The biting snare was just a convenient example, but let's look at the Hail of Arrows snare. Sure you say, it's level 16 so that's far enough ahead to not matter that much. Except at level 16 you could be Legendary in crafting which allows you to place 8 "free" snares or 2 Alpha strike death stars per day. Not that bad I suppose. Well, look closer at Hail of Arrows and compare it to competing magical options. 4 Hail of arrows Snares would effect a 20 foot radius around the triggered square with 72d6 in arrows allowing a basic Ref save with DC 37 (potentially higher depending on class DC and if you took Powerful Snares but I digress). An Ancient Black Dragon (lvl 16) has a Ref Save of 27, meaning they pass on a 10 up and only crit pass on a 20. Average damage on 72d6 is 252 which is a little over 2/3rds of that Ancient Black Dragons health for one characters turn worth of actions. And that's against a single target, the Hail of Arrows targets everything in a pretty significant area meaning the more enemies are around, the more mileage you get out of those snares. And Hail of Arrows has NO additional crafting requirements so really are "Free" with Snare Specialist.

A fireball (the old standard area damage spell) cast at 8th would do a paltry 16d6 at this level unless I am mistaken. How is that balanced? Even if you consider Jim the Ranger can "only" put down two of these death stars per day, that is one heck of an opening punch.

Let's put it this way, even if the effects able to be generated by a player exploiting the poor implementation of these rules are almost balanced or "not that bad", that doesn't change the fact that the rules allow for what appears for all intents and purposes to be an abuse to exist. Especially when you consider the long term. What happens when new, possibly better or more efficient, snares are released?

Why not just fix the rules or at least provide a clarification on how they are actually supposed to be used now and side step that issue.

60 is also a low average for 20d6. The actual average is 70, which could fluctuate wildly based on saves. Not throwing shade, just figured I'd point that out.

Cheers


Another point I just considered: What has Jim the Ranger invested into his death star shenanigans? 1 Feat, Snare Specialist. At level 16 you can pick up Ubiquitous Snares for 16 Snares and 4 Death Stars per day.

Oh and he trained his Snare Crafting up to Legendary. 2 Feats and some Skill increases is not much of an investment, you still have a fully functional Ranger at the end of the day.

Seems balanced. :)


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First of all, you don't create Snares by batches:
"You must have the Snare Crafting feat to create snares. You can spend 1 minute to Craft a snare at its listed Price."
So, you can create one snare by spending 1 minutes. Snare doesn't follow the classical crafting rules, they have their own rules.

Then, I don't see any issue in having more than one snare on the same square. The fact that there is no limitations per RAW doesn't mean that your DM can't make them. Their are tons of things that are allowed in the rules but that your DM will limit because they are not logical. So, if you come with an intelligent idea on how to have multiple snares on the same square and having them interact nicely, I think there is no reason to limit that. Now, if you just want to make Death Stars by creating 4 times the same snare, as a DM, I would certainly apply a few limitations to it, either by making them easier to spot or by asking you more and more time to build your complex mechanism as you'll have to think about their interaction (and make sure not to trigger them while building the others).


SuperBidi wrote:

First of all, you don't create Snares by batches:

"You must have the Snare Crafting feat to create snares. You can spend 1 minute to Craft a snare at its listed Price."
So, you can create one snare by spending 1 minutes. Snare doesn't follow the classical crafting rules, they have their own rules.

Then, I don't see any issue in having more than one snare on the same square. The fact that there is no limitations per RAW doesn't mean that your DM can't make them. Their are tons of things that are allowed in the rules but that your DM will limit because they are not logical. So, if you come with an intelligent idea on how to have multiple snares on the same square and having them interact nicely, I think there is no reason to limit that. Now, if you just want to make Death Stars by creating 4 times the same snare, as a DM, I would certainly apply a few limitations to it, either by making them easier to spot or by asking you more and more time to build your complex mechanism as you'll have to think about their interaction (and make sure not to trigger them while building the others).

Nothing in that section of the book indicates that crafting that snare operates any differently than the Craft Activity described under Craft aside from the time taken to craft a snare. Each and every Snare has the Consumable Trait, so when Craft says that Consumables can be created using the Craft Activity in batches of up to 4, why then does this not apply to Snares? The only thing clearly altered by the "Crafting Snares" section is the time frame under which it is done.

Look, at the face of it, I agree with you. And of course the DM has final say on what is and is not allowed. In Game Conventions under Ambiguous Rules they even state that you should work with your group to find the best solution in situations just like this.

Big However here: That does not excuse the fact that the rules as written clearly allow for this sort of abuse, which should be addressed.


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beowulf99 wrote:
Nothing in that section of the book indicates that crafting that snare operates any differently than the Craft Activity described under Craft aside from the time taken to craft a snare. Each and every Snare has the Consumable Trait, so when Craft says that Consumables can be created using the Craft Activity in batches of up to 4, why then does this not apply to Snares? The only thing clearly altered by the "Crafting Snares" section is the time frame under which it is done.

"This section includes magic items with the consumable trait. An item with this trait can be used only once. Unless stated otherwise, it is destroyed after activation. When a character creates consumable items, they can make them in batches of four, as described in the Craft activity. Consumables includes the following subcategories, with any special rules appearing at the start of the section."

"Snares are small annoyances and simple traps you can create using the Crafting skill if you have the Snare Crafting feat (page 266). Creating a snare requires a snare kit (page 291) and an amount of raw materials worth the amount listed in the snare’s Price entry. Unlike other items, found snares cannot be collected or sold in their complete form. Snares have the snare trait."

It's quite clear that Snares are not created following the "Craft activity", they are created using another activity. So, I think my ruling's good.


SuperBidi wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Nothing in that section of the book indicates that crafting that snare operates any differently than the Craft Activity described under Craft aside from the time taken to craft a snare. Each and every Snare has the Consumable Trait, so when Craft says that Consumables can be created using the Craft Activity in batches of up to 4, why then does this not apply to Snares? The only thing clearly altered by the "Crafting Snares" section is the time frame under which it is done.

"This section includes magic items with the consumable trait. An item with this trait can be used only once. Unless stated otherwise, it is destroyed after activation. When a character creates consumable items, they can make them in batches of four, as described in the Craft activity. Consumables includes the following subcategories, with any special rules appearing at the start of the section."

"Snares are small annoyances and simple traps you can create using the Crafting skill if you have the Snare Crafting feat (page 266). Creating a snare requires a snare kit (page 291) and an amount of raw materials worth the amount listed in the snare’s Price entry. Unlike other items, found snares cannot be collected or sold in their complete form. Snares have the snare trait."

It's quite clear that Snares are not created following the "Craft activity", they are created using another activity. So, I think my ruling's good.

Sure, excepting only the use of the term Craft over and over and over again.

Also, "Snares are small annoyances and simple traps you can create using the Crafting Skill,"... That feels pretty clear to me.

Okay, since Snares have their own crafting rule, and since Snare Specialist clearly states that I can get any common or uncommon recipe for snares when I pickup the feat, I'll just take all the lvl 20 ones and use them at Level 4. Since I'm not using the "Craft Activity" the whole item of my level non-sense doesn't apply.

Again. I agree with you Sir and or Ma'am. However the rules as written are not Clear. I get what is intended. But I won't start the age old RAI/RAW war with you. This entire post is entirely me stating that the Rules as Worded are far too ambiguous and clearly indicate that Snares can be placed 4 at a time for 3 actions by a Ranger. You have said nothing that disproves that.

Yes, DM's have the final say. Yes, there is an entire blurb about finding the best compromise for ambiguous rules. However if Snares break the rules so hard, why shouldn't Paizo fix them? It wouldn't even be difficult. A simple sentence stating that only 1 snare can fit in a 5-foot square and only 1 snare can be crafted at once would fix the entire issue.

But that doesn't exist, and it should. Because I want the game to be as clear as it can be in its rules.


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Lightning Snares is written as only letting you do one snare at a time. The other feats have some ambiguous language but I need to check the Snare rules to see if it is actually an exception as written. Regardless, pretty sure that is the intention.

As for placing snares in the same square, common sense dictates that probably won't normally work, but I could see a scenario where it could-- if you have a bunch of spider webs letting you hide a trip wire above ground level for example.

Setting aside those considerations, the snares work fine as written (doing a single snare with each craft activity, one per square.) Snares do hit really really hard, but they require extensive planning to actually use. If you deploy them in front of an enemy they almost certainly won't step into that square, and even if they don't you have to lure them there. You could rig your home base with them, sure. But you almost never get attacked at home. PCs are almost always the Invaders, so setting snares is going to require careful scouting and planning to utilize.

Will they be crazy good when you get those stars aligned. Hell yeah. But it isn't game breaking anymore than having a sorcerer with fireball fight a whole mass of tightly grouped enemies, a druid wild striding around the battlefield, or other such things.


@beowulf99: Reading more about it, I agree with you, there should be a line for batches of snares.
I still like the idea of having multiple snares on the same square. For example, cumulating an Alarm Snare with a damaging one is a very nice combo, and I think no DM would forbid it as it's far from overpowered.


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I feel it is good to talk about this before the first errata comes out so it gives the devs a good chance of addressing this in the first errata. Most of us will agree to no stacking traps and the like. But there are always people that will see something like this and interpret it to be in there favor regardless of how it is intended, and sometimes those people steam roll the gm to get there way.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
K1 wrote:


A medium roll for 20 d6 is 60 dmg

just to point out that your numbers are wrong.

out of 2 dice the average result is 7, so 20d6 is 70 dmg.

not that it matters much, just so you know for the future.


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beowulf99 wrote:

Another point I just considered: What has Jim the Ranger invested into his death star shenanigans? 1 Feat, Snare Specialist. At level 16 you can pick up Ubiquitous Snares for 16 Snares and 4 Death Stars per day.

Oh and he trained his Snare Crafting up to Legendary. 2 Feats and some Skill increases is not much of an investment, you still have a fully functional Ranger at the end of the day.

Seems balanced. :)

You need snare crafting too. And I'm not sure I'd call investing one of your very limited skill increases in Crafting a non cost.

And in the end you get... something that's pretty cool in a couple very niche circumstances?

So, yeah, that does seem pretty balanced I agree.

The lack of guidance on batch crafting does seem like an oversight though.


Squiggit wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:

Another point I just considered: What has Jim the Ranger invested into his death star shenanigans? 1 Feat, Snare Specialist. At level 16 you can pick up Ubiquitous Snares for 16 Snares and 4 Death Stars per day.

Oh and he trained his Snare Crafting up to Legendary. 2 Feats and some Skill increases is not much of an investment, you still have a fully functional Ranger at the end of the day.

Seems balanced. :)

You need snare crafting too. And I'm not sure I'd call investing one of your very limited skill increases in Crafting a non cost.

And in the end you get... something that's pretty cool in a couple very niche circumstances?

So, yeah, that does seem pretty balanced I agree.

The lack of guidance on batch crafting does seem like an oversight though.

You may also want powerful snares. The current snare list has some gaps between levels that are a little harsh so a DC increase is quite nice, say, for level 11 when you're still using 8th level snares.

Lightning Snares is worth considering as well.


Captain Morgan wrote:


You may also want powerful snares. The current snare list has some gaps between levels that are a little harsh so a DC increase is quite nice, say, for level 11 when you're still using 8th level snares.

Lightning Snares is worth considering as well.

It also let's you use low level snares at high level. You can deal more damage with the same amount of money spent on spike snares,

I mean, you can make over 3000 spike snares (2d6) for the same cost as 1 Instant Evisceration (24d8). 250 times as much damage (Though obviously a lot longer setup time).

Though, would powerful snare apply to caltrop snare?


Mellored wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:


You may also want powerful snares. The current snare list has some gaps between levels that are a little harsh so a DC increase is quite nice, say, for level 11 when you're still using 8th level snares.

Lightning Snares is worth considering as well.

It also let's you use low level snares at high level. You can deal more damage with the same amount of money spent on spike snares,

I mean, you can make over 3000 spike snares (2d6) for the same cost as 1 Instant Evisceration (24d8). 250 times as much damage (Though obviously a lot longer setup time).

Though, would powerful snare apply to caltrop snare?

Provided you are sticking to the "one square per snare" rule it also doesn't seem too OP. Trapping every single square of an area (or enough squares to make people think they all are) seems like it could have some fun applications. Especially if you throw in a high end snare at a key point, so they plow through expecting just another 2d6 and then get Instantly Eviscerated.


Bandw2 wrote:
K1 wrote:


A medium roll for 20 d6 is 60 dmg

just to point out that your numbers are wrong.

out of 2 dice the average result is 7, so 20d6 is 70 dmg.

not that it matters much, just so you know for the future.

I am a little lost.

Given a maximum which is 120, why would a 50% be 70 and not 60?

Can't I simply do /2 to get what the average roll would be?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
K1 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
K1 wrote:


A medium roll for 20 d6 is 60 dmg

just to point out that your numbers are wrong.

out of 2 dice the average result is 7, so 20d6 is 70 dmg.

not that it matters much, just so you know for the future.

I am a little lost.

Given a maximum which is 120, why would a 50% be 70 and not 60?

Can't I simply do /2 to get what the average roll would be?

you have 6 possible rolls on a d6

1 2 3 4 5 6

half of a number is the number between that number and 0

so between 0 1 2 3 4 5 6, as there are 3 numbers on each side.

a dice doesn't start from 0, so the middle number is 1 2 3 4 5 6, 3 and 4(2 numbers on both sides), meaning roughly 3.5 is the average die roll.

the range of 20d6 is 20-120
so to find the average roll, you half the largest number 120(60) and add it to half the lowest number, 20(10), for a total of 70.


Right.

Thank you!


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
K1 wrote:

Right.

Thank you!

you're welcome.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Mellored wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:


You may also want powerful snares. The current snare list has some gaps between levels that are a little harsh so a DC increase is quite nice, say, for level 11 when you're still using 8th level snares.

Lightning Snares is worth considering as well.

It also let's you use low level snares at high level. You can deal more damage with the same amount of money spent on spike snares,

I mean, you can make over 3000 spike snares (2d6) for the same cost as 1 Instant Evisceration (24d8). 250 times as much damage (Though obviously a lot longer setup time).

Though, would powerful snare apply to caltrop snare?

Provided you are sticking to the "one square per snare" rule it also doesn't seem too OP. Trapping every single square of an area (or enough squares to make people think they all are) seems like it could have some fun applications. Especially if you throw in a high end snare at a key point, so they plow through expecting just another 2d6 and then get Instantly Eviscerated.

2d6 over 200' / 5' per trap = 140 damage. Enough to kill a level 8 creature, for the cost of 2 striking snares.

At higher levels, probably line a hallway with Grasping Snares, and maybe a few stunning snares. And get 10 free turns to shoot the enemy.

Just saying, I don't see these things as weak.


Mellored wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Mellored wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:


You may also want powerful snares. The current snare list has some gaps between levels that are a little harsh so a DC increase is quite nice, say, for level 11 when you're still using 8th level snares.

Lightning Snares is worth considering as well.

It also let's you use low level snares at high level. You can deal more damage with the same amount of money spent on spike snares,

I mean, you can make over 3000 spike snares (2d6) for the same cost as 1 Instant Evisceration (24d8). 250 times as much damage (Though obviously a lot longer setup time).

Though, would powerful snare apply to caltrop snare?

Provided you are sticking to the "one square per snare" rule it also doesn't seem too OP. Trapping every single square of an area (or enough squares to make people think they all are) seems like it could have some fun applications. Especially if you throw in a high end snare at a key point, so they plow through expecting just another 2d6 and then get Instantly Eviscerated.

2d6 over 200' / 5' per trap = 140 damage. Enough to kill a level 8 creature, for the cost of 2 striking snares.

At higher levels, probably line a hallway with Grasping Snares, and maybe a few stunning snares. And get 10 free turns to shoot the enemy.

Just saying, I don't see these things as weak.

Assuming they don't have a ranged attacks, spells, flight, teleportation, or other relevant abilities, sure. But lots of things will have some combination of those at higher levels. Or hell, the creature might just leave if the battefield is that rigged against it.

It is a very nifty move to be sure, and could trivialize some very specific encounters... But it's pretty easy to beat as a strategy. Also, while the rules for Snare raw materials are woefully underexplained (IMO, of course) a GM could very reasonably argue that you couldn't carry the crafting materials for 3000 snares. So we are getting into even more specific niches.


Captain Morgan wrote:

Lightning Snares is written as only letting you do one snare at a time. The other feats have some ambiguous language but I need to check the Snare rules to see if it is actually an exception as written. Regardless, pretty sure that is the intention.

As for placing snares in the same square, common sense dictates that probably won't normally work, but I could see a scenario where it could-- if you have a bunch of spider webs letting you hide a trip wire above ground level for example.

Setting aside those considerations, the snares work fine as written (doing a single snare with each craft activity, one per square.) Snares do hit really really hard, but they require extensive planning to actually use. If you deploy them in front of an enemy they almost certainly won't step into that square, and even if they don't you have to lure them there. You could rig your home base with them, sure. But you almost never get attacked at home. PCs are almost always the Invaders, so setting snares is going to require careful scouting and planning to utilize.

Will they be crazy good when you get those stars aligned. Hell yeah. But it isn't game breaking anymore than having a sorcerer with fireball fight a whole mass of tightly grouped enemies, a druid wild striding around the battlefield, or other such things.

Lightning Snares uses the same language as the rest of the Snare feats. The problem stems with the way the Craft activity is worded. The Craft activity only ever talks about crafting items in the singular. For example: "You can make an item from raw materials. You need the Alchemical Crafting skill feat to create alchemical items, the Magical Crafting skill feat to create magic items, and the Snare Crafting feat to create snares."

Then at the very end of the section tacks on that items with the Consumable Trait can be made in batches of up to 4. The wording of Lightning Snares is the Exact same as the wording in Snare Specialist.
Snare Specialist: "...you can prepare four snares from your formula book for quick deployment; if they normally take 1 minute to Craft, you can Craft them with 3 Interact actions."
Lighning Snares: "When you create a snare that normally takes 1 minute to Craft, you can Craft it using a single Interact action instead."

The problem is the way this interacts with the aforementioned Craft activity. Again, sure the DM has the right to veto any of this, but my point is that a DM shouldn't have to in a case this egregious. The wording is too vague and should be addressed.


So 3 questions...

Does powerful snare work with caltrops snare?
Can you build snares while hidden? (like if you scout and find some enemies, put a few snares, and then start shooting).
If you disable your snare, do you get the money/snare back to use later?


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Another issue with Snares as designed I just had pointed out to me, detecting Snares and Monsters. Under detecting Snares it states the following:
"If you are an expert in Crafting, only a creature that is trained in Perception can find your snares; if you are a master in Crafting, only a creature that is an expert in Perception can find your snares; and if you are legendary in Crafting, only a creature that is a master in
Perception can find your snares. If your proficiency rank is expert or better in Crafting, only creatures actively searching can find your snares."

How well trained in perception is a Goblin? Or a Dragon? How does a GM determine when a monster has high enough training in perception to begin finding an expert Jim the Ranger's Snare?


Mellored wrote:

So 3 questions...

Does powerful snare work with caltrops snare?
Can you build snares while hidden? (like if you scout and find some enemies, put a few snares, and then start shooting).
If you disable your snare, do you get the money/snare back to use later?

In order, as written Yes powerful Snare works with Caltrops. You can build Snares while hidden as there is no contradiction I can find in Hidden or the Craft Activity saying that you cannot.

The last part is a bit ambiguous. The book says that, "Unlike other items, found snares cannot be collected or sold in their complete form," and under Crafting a Snare, "Once constructed, it can’t be moved without destroying (and often triggering) the snare."

This would leave me to believe that you cannot pick up your own Snare to deploy elsewhere. However I believe it is up the GM how much if any of the components are salvageable since the book doesn't really provide an answer.

My read on it would be no, you cannot recollect a deployed Snare as written.


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beowulf99 wrote:
This would leave me to believe that you cannot pick up your own Snare to deploy elsewhere.

And now you know why snares are terrible. You literally can't use them in combat and it's highly unlikely the PCs will have the time and knowledge to set an ambush.


Draco18s wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
This would leave me to believe that you cannot pick up your own Snare to deploy elsewhere.
And now you know why snares are terrible. You literally can't use them in combat and it's highly unlikely the PCs will have the time and knowledge to set an ambush.

Why can't you use them in combat? 3 actions to set up (one action with lightning snares) isn't bad.

Why is it highly unlikely that PCs will have time and knowledge for an ambush? Don't have a Rogue scouting for you?

This doesn't actually address the point of this thread: The wording on Ranger Snare feats is too ambiguous and needs to be addressed. This is not a thread for simply stating that snares are garbage and should just be ignored.

Good day sir.


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beowulf99 wrote:

Lightning Snares uses the same language as the rest of the Snare feats. The problem stems with the way the Craft activity is worded. The Craft activity only ever talks about crafting items in the singular. For example: "You can make an item from raw materials. You need the Alchemical Crafting skill feat to create alchemical items, the Magical Crafting skill feat to create magic items, and the Snare Crafting feat to create snares."

Then at the very end of the section tacks on that items with the Consumable Trait can be made in batches of up to 4. The wording of Lightning Snares is the Exact same as the wording in Snare Specialist.
Snare Specialist: "...you can prepare four snares from your formula book for quick deployment; if they normally take 1 minute to Craft, you can Craft them with 3 Interact actions."
Lighning Snares: "When you create a snare that normally takes 1 minute to Craft, you can Craft it using a single Interact action instead."
The problem is the way this interacts with the aforementioned Craft activity. Again, sure the DM has the right to veto any of this, but my point is that a DM shouldn't have to in a case this egregious. The wording is too vague and should be addressed.

The way I read it.

I don't think batches or pre-building snares are allowed in the base rules. Just 1 at a time, craft them where you use them. "A snare is built within a single 5-foot square.. it can’t be moved ... You can spend 1 minute to Craft A snare at its listed Price".

Snare Specialist gives you a free snares per day. They take 3 actions to "craft", all others take 1 minute.

Quick Snare let's you craft any snare in 3 actions. Doesn't really do anything for Snare Specialist which was already 3.

Lighting snare is craft a snare in 1 action. Either a new snare, or your free ones.


Mellored wrote:

The way I read it.

I don't think batches or pre-building snares are allowed in the base rules. Just 1 at a time, craft them where you use them. "A snare is built within a single 5-foot square.. it can’t be moved ... You can spend 1 minute to Craft A snare at its listed Price".

Snare Specialist gives you a free snares per day. They take 3 actions to "craft", all others take 1 minute.

Quick Snare let's you craft any snare in 3 actions. Doesn't really do anything for Snare Specialist which was already 3.

Lighting snare is craft a snare in 1 action. Either a new snare, or your free ones.

In the base rules, why wouldn't you be allowed to craft them in batches? They hit all of the requirements to do so. The base craft action only ever talks about creating a single item at a time, until you get to the "extra" bit at the end that states that items with the Consumable Trait can be made in batches of 4.

"Consumables and Ammunition
You can Craft items with the consumable trait in batches,
making up to four of the same item at once with a single
check. This requires you to include the raw materials
for all the items in the batch at the start, and you must
complete the batch all at once. You also Craft non-magical
ammunition in batches, using the quantity listed in Table
6–8: Ranged Weapons (typically 10)."

The way the Feats are written, there is nothing stopping you from using this clause with Snares.

I agree that your reading seems to be the intent of these rules, however the wording is too vague and pretty clearly also supports the idea that Jim the Ranger can do some multi-snare shenaniganery.

It is important that any ambiguous rules are cleared up, especially in cases where they break the game in ways its not meant to be broken.


Draco18s wrote:
And now you know why snares are terrible. You literally can't use them in combat and it's highly unlikely the PCs will have the time and knowledge to set an ambush.

You would really want stealth to use them, but I think "enemy runs straight at me" is going to be common enough that they will run over them fairly often. Just make sure "barbarian runs straight at the enemy" is not also happening.

And being able to place 1 in 1 action let's you use them mid-battle.

Also, they work best indoors. Not outdoors. A lot less area to cover.


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beowulf99 wrote:
In the base rules, why wouldn't you be allowed to craft them in batches?

"You can spend 1 minute to Craft a snare at its listed Price."

I guess that doesn't prevent you from spending 4 days to craft a batch of 4. But those can't be moved, and I don't think an enemy will wait that long while you set some up outside it's door.
And it would not be "a snare that would normally take 1 minute".

It also says "If you want to Craft a snare at a discount, you must spend downtime as described in the Craft activity". So I guess if you had a lot of time, and no money, you might do it in that way.


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Mellored wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
In the base rules, why wouldn't you be allowed to craft them in batches?

"You can spend 1 minute to Craft a snare at its listed Price."

I guess that doesn't prevent you from spending 4 days to craft a batch of 4. But those can't be moved, and I don't think an enemy will wait that long while you set some up outside it's door.
And it would not be "a snare that would normally take 1 minute".

It also says "If you want to Craft a snare at a discount, you must spend downtime as described in the Craft activity". So I guess if you had a lot of time, and no money, you might do it in that way.

I see what you are saying. But let's look at it this way: You go to place a Snare. Refer to the rules and you are lead to the Craft Activity. The Craft activity clearly talks about creating one singular item. All good. Then you get to the end of the Crafting section and see the bit labeled Consumables and Ammunition. Nowhere in that section does it state that it takes specifically 4 days to create a batch of items. It just says that if you are making 1 consumable, you can make them as a batch of up to 4 so long as you provide all of the material upfront and complete them at the same time all with one check.

This does not conflict with the wording on crafting "a" snare because crafting "a" snare uses the same activity as crafting "an" arrow. The only thing altered by Snare Specialist etc... is the time frame that that item is crafted in. There is no conflict with creating multiple snares as a batch directly and it can very easily be interpreted as such.

This needs to be addressed.


This whole thread makes me once again wish Snares were crossover feats with Alchemist. Also that I enjoy snares.

I do really wish they were mor clearly alligned in someway. It has a lot of wonky bits.

Actually its a lot like my other favorite thing. Poison.
I assume they were subsystems they didn't need massively tuned for the core but will become tuned later through "tricky" or "survival" centric suppliment. Kind of simliar to the P1 method there.


Zwordsman wrote:
This whole thread makes me once again wish Snares were crossover feats with Alchemist. Also that I enjoy snares.

Anyone can make snares. And there is a bomb snare for alchemist.

But I do agree, that it would make a good feat for them. Bomb snare could probably use some tweaking as well.


I mostly meant share the Ranger's Snare feat line.
The same way several other feats are shared (quick draw with ranger/rogue for instance)

Sovereign Court

I just added a note in my house rules that only 1 snare may be set in a 5 foot area, no snare-stacking. I think that should be listed as an Errata IMHO.


Zwordsman wrote:

I mostly meant share the Ranger's Snare feat line.

The same way several other feats are shared (quick draw with ranger/rogue for instance)

Might make a good archetype.

Just lag the feats a few levels behind the ranger.


As a side note, crafting a snare doesn't follow the Craft Anything rule. It uses it's specific rule.
So, the proper line about batches is the one from Consumables: "When a character creates consumable items, they can make them in batches of four, as described in the Craft activity."
It doesn't change the problem, though...


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Mellored wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:

I mostly meant share the Ranger's Snare feat line.

The same way several other feats are shared (quick draw with ranger/rogue for instance)

Might make a good archetype.

Just lag the feats a few levels behind the ranger.

Why lag them? You are getting more niche for a higher cost than just being/multiclassing ranger.

Look at the aldori, most of it is fighter equivalent stuff and it is either on level or earlier, otherwise what's the point?


SuperBidi wrote:

As a side note, crafting a snare doesn't follow the Craft Anything rule. It uses it's specific rule.

So, the proper line about batches is the one from Consumables: "When a character creates consumable items, they can make them in batches of four, as described in the Craft activity."
It doesn't change the problem, though...

Really? What page are the specific Snare crafting rules on? Which page specifically has the exact steps taken one at a time and what checks are made to craft a snare? Because as far as I am aware they follow the exact same crafting rules on page 244 that everything else does. The only thing modified by "Crafting Snares" on page 589 is the time taken to do so and where the crafted item goes.

This is what creates the entire issue. They made a way of using a downtime activity in combat and didn't fully account for odd interactions between feats written for in combat use and a downtime activity.

*edited for clarity.


You're right, actually. I found the line specifying it in Snare Crafting. I was making a mistake.
But it means you have to do a Crafting check to complete your Snare. I wasn't seeing it that way.


SuperBidi wrote:

"Snares

Source Core Rulebook pg. 589
Snares are small annoyances and simple traps you can create using the Crafting skill if you have the Snare Crafting feat (page 266). Creating a snare requires a snare kit (page 291) and an amount of raw materials worth the amount listed in the snare’s Price entry. Unlike other items, found snares cannot be collected or sold in their complete form. Snares have the snare trait.
Crafting Snares
Source Core Rulebook pg. 589
A snare is built within a single 5-foot square. Once constructed, it can’t be moved without destroying (and often triggering) the snare.

You must have the Snare Crafting feat to create snares. You can spend 1 minute to Craft a snare at its listed Price. If you want to Craft a snare at a discount, you must spend downtime as described in the Craft activity. Some snares have additional requirements beyond those stated in the Craft activity; these snares list their requirements in a Craft Requirements entry."

Copied from Archive of Nethys. You don't need anything more. It covers cost, time, conditions and the like. Level requirements is covered by Level part in items. The only thing that hasn't been repeated is Formula, it's true there's something lacking.

Anyway, snares don't follow the rules from Craft Anything. It doesn't follow the time scale, the cost scale, the check need and success span. If you start mixing both rules, then you need to make a Crafting check to make snares. Do you need a Crafting check to make a Snare? If your answer is no, then it doesn't follow Craft Anything at all, even for you.

You need to make a Craft Check to place a snare. Because it is a Crafting activity. What do you mean by, "Level requirements is covered by Level part in items,"? why are you referring to that section of the book instead of the Crafting section when you are Crafting an item?

Why wouldn't crafting a Snare require a Craft check, especially since you are having to train the Craft Skill to get access to better Snares with the Snare Specialist feat?

Snares Exactly follow the rules for Crafting Anything. The rules for Crafting anything are then modified by the specific Crafting Snares rules.

*edited to be less snarky.


I edited my post while you were writing yours :-)


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beowulf99 wrote:
Why can't you use them in combat? 3 actions to set up (one action with lightning snares) isn't bad.

Option A: 3 actions, create a snare in an adjacent square while an enemy watches you do it (if its triggered, it does 5d6 Ref 18 for half). Oh and spend 15 gold. Not silver, gold. Or about 11% of your character's total accumulated wealth by level 4.

Option B: Hunt Prey, Hunted Shot, Strike

Lightning Snares is a level 12 feat competing with Double Prey, Distracting Shot, Side By Side, and Second Sting. All of which are pretty good.

Quote:
The wording on Ranger Snare feats is too ambiguous and needs to be addressed.

I don't disagree.


Draco18s wrote:
beowulf99 wrote:
Why can't you use them in combat? 3 actions to set up (one action with lightning snares) isn't bad.

Option A: 3 actions, create a snare in an adjacent square while an enemy watches you do it (if its triggered, it does 5d6 Ref 18 for half). Oh and spend 15 gold. Not silver, gold. Or about 11% of your character's total accumulated wealth by level 4.

Option B: Hunt Prey, Hunted Shot, Strike

Lightning Snares is a level 12 feat competing with Double Prey, Distracting Shot, Side By Side, and Second Sting. All of which are pretty good.

Quote:
The wording on Ranger Snare feats is too ambiguous and needs to be addressed.
I don't disagree.

Oof. Didn't read snare specialist eh? Well the 4 absolutely free snares you get per day at lvl 4 disagree with you. Since they don't cost anything. And you only get more free snares per day as your training in craft goes up. And not to mention the Ubiquitous snares perk that doubles the number you get to a max of 16 at lvl 16. So 4 death stars per day.

Sure you can spend money and items on additional snares, but why would you since you are still capable of hunting your pray, hunted shooting and striking on subsequent turns anyway.


I will also point out that the rules never state that you need to set up the snare in an "Adjacent" square. That is all you. According to the rules, you just have to set it up in a single 5 foot square. The rules never limit you to one that is adjacent, which I agree that they should.

The rules are incomplete. This must be addressed.


I will also correct myself, earlier I said that you had to pay "Additional Crafting requirements" of any snare you place. This seems to be incorrect since Snare Specialist states that, "Snares prepared in this way don’t cost you any resources to Craft," which leads me to believe you are absolutely scott free so far as resources are considered beyond the round of actions it takes to set up.

There are also only 2 snares total, the Bomb snare and the Caltrop snare that even cost anything beyond gold in the first place. So that's not much of an issue.


Your entire point seems to be predicated on the assumption that the GM takes some wildly permissive interpretations when it comes to how snares work and gives you essentially infinite time to prepare before a fight.

Under those conditions, yeah, snares are really good, but so what?


swoosh wrote:

Your entire point seems to be predicated on the assumption that the GM takes some wildly permissive interpretations when it comes to how snares work and gives you essentially infinite time to prepare before a fight.

Under those conditions, yeah, snares are really good, but so what?

What time to prepare is required? All of this is doable in mid combat. Also, sure it is craaaazy to allow Jim the Ranger to do these things.

If you agree, then you agree that the rules NEED to be addressed. Because somewhere out there is a GM who is dming his first game of Pathfinder who doesn't know how to say no to Jim the Ranger. And that GM is going to have a bad time.

Paizo put out the rules. They didn't spend enough time making sure that these rules work well. Or really at all since the GM has to step in and fix the broken-ness of the rule in question. It needs to be addressed.

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