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Considering the recent events in Hong Kong, the intimidation tactics used by Chinese government against business (NBA, Blizzard) and the well known general track record for trampling human rights, as with the Uygur minority recently, is continuing to print your products in PRC truly reflective of a company which has, to much well-deserved praise, stood insofar for several universal values of inclusivity, employee rights, tolerance and non-discrimination?
I'm fully aware of the fact that moving printing out of the People's Republic of China towards some more exotic place such as the eastern marches of the Godless United Communist Ripubliks of Yurp would likely result in the printed matter getting more expensive. I'd be more than happy to pony up the price hike. I've insofar enjoyed the fact that throwing my money at Paizo helps a business that treats employees fairly and eschews many idiotic policies (excuse me, sound capitalist practices) the American entrepreneurship is famous for, the "printed in China" issue sticks out.
These days I believe we can safely discard the whole "well at least it makes Chinese people richer and if they'll get richer they'll inevitably go democratic and abolish their authoritarian government" argument, as it's plain to see that it's not happening.
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If Paizo books were printed in Europe, maybe there could one day even be a possibility of not having to ship them across the Atlantic twice...
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I don't generally agree with talking bag...but this once I do...
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I have seen 2 or 3 Paizo books printed in Canada, I don't know if it's possible to do it on a regular basis and don't know the financial of that… I'm sure it's not as cheap than printing in China... but don't know by how much.
A bonus of printing in North America, as the books transit in Paizo warehouse, is that they don't cross half the planet before being shipped again to customers. So probably less shiping polution.
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I have seen 2 or 3 Paizo books printed in Canada, I don't know if it's possible to do it on a regular basis and don't know the financial of that… I'm sure it's not as cheap than printing in China... but don't know by how much.
A bonus of printing in North America, as the books transit in Paizo warehouse, is that they don't cross half the planet before being shipped again to customers. So probably less shiping polution.
Unfortunately, the Canadian printers are both significantly more expensive and they don't have the capacity to handle Paizo's standard print runs (they're used primarily for fast turnarounds on products printed in more limited quantities). It would likely require another country or large corporation putting significant investment into printing infrastructure at a point in human history where print publishing is on a distinct downward slope to make moving printing somewhere other than China feasible.
Given that right now Paizo has lowered the overall cost per page of their product lines to the consumer and is still being met with pretty vocal accusations of making their products unaffordable, it seems like it could be pretty questionable as to whether the company could use a different printer if they wanted to, though I expect they'd be as happy as anyone if there were a plausible alternative.
The pain of higher costs may hit us whether or not Paizo moves production out of China. If the tariffs on Chinese goods apply to books, then cost of production will go up anyway.
At that point the cost-differential may become small enough that switching won't make much difference.
The playtest books were printed in the US.
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The issue is really about the big hardcover books. Those are the ones that printers outside of China have such trouble competing with.
Plenty of printers can produce quality soft cover perfect bound or saddle-stitched books at competitive prices. Big full cover case bound hard covers is a different animal entirely.
Chief Technical Officer
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I have removed some posts regarding American politics. That discussion is not welcome on paizo.com. (I am leaving the existing limited discussion of Chinese politics as it's relevant in this specific situation; this should not be construed as an invitation to talk about Chinese politics in general. There's a VERY fine line here, and posts that cross it will be deleted.)
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I too have removed a post that contained disparaging remarks regarding China and the Chinese. Our community will not tolerate these kinds of comments so please take them elsewhere.
The playtest books were printed in the US.
Actually, Captain Yesterday, the Playtest books were printed in Canada, not in the USA.
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I have seen 2 or 3 Paizo books printed in Canada, I don't know if it's possible to do it on a regular basis and don't know the financial of that… I'm sure it's not as cheap than printing in China... but don't know by how much.
A bonus of printing in North America, as the books transit in Paizo warehouse, is that they don't cross half the planet before being shipped again to customers. So probably less shiping polution.
Unfortunately, the Canadian printers are both significantly more expensive and they don't have the capacity to handle Paizo's standard print runs (they're used primarily for fast turnarounds on products printed in more limited quantities). It would likely require another country or large corporation putting significant investment into printing infrastructure at a point in human history where print publishing is on a distinct downward slope to make moving printing somewhere other than China feasible.
Given that right now Paizo has lowered the overall cost per page of their product lines to the consumer and is still being met with pretty vocal accusations of making their products unaffordable, it seems like it could be pretty questionable as to whether the company could use a different printer if they wanted to, though I expect they'd be as happy as anyone if there were a plausible alternative.
Actually Ssalarn, you are incorrect. There are several manufacturers in Canada that can handle books of our size and print runs at reasonable pricing, the drawback in working with them is timing. They work with a more rigid manufacturing timetable and we benefit from the flexibility our Chinese manufacturing partners provide us. Not to mention more than a decade long business relationship that has been highly beneficial for a variety of reasons.
The playtest books were printed in the US.Actually, Captain Yesterday, the Playtest books were printed in Canada, not in the USA.
Excellent, Thanks!
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Not to mention more than a decade long business relationship that has been highly beneficial for a variety of reasons.
That's what you hear usually in a Shanghai bar sitting next to an employee of the Company and an officer of MI6 and the reasons involve an opium den and a dance hall full of agreeable camaraderie wearing silk cheongsams.
But that arrangement might not survive the coming storm, perhaps you could reconsider meeting in a snowy pass in Switzerland a stone's throw away from Geneva with reasons involving a printing house somewhere between the Oder and the Bug rivers?
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you deleted my post?
you deleted my post?
Did it fall into one of these categories:
I have removed some posts regarding American politics. That discussion is not welcome on paizo.com. (I am leaving the existing limited discussion of Chinese politics as it's relevant in this specific situation; this should not be construed as an invitation to talk about Chinese politics in general. There's a VERY fine line here, and posts that cross it will be deleted.)
I too have removed a post that contained disparaging remarks regarding China and the Chinese. Our community will not tolerate these kinds of comments so please take them elsewhere.
Paizo have a policy against discussing politics on the boards. They also have a broader, more general policy against targeting specific groups.
The boards got a bit unpleasant a few years back and the decision was made to disallow these conversations here. There’s plenty of places on the internet that do allow discussion of political issues.
you deleted my post?
Your previous post, the deleted one, Diego deemed beyond what we feel is appropriate to discuss with regard to Chinese politics.
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I might have a bit more background knowledge to add. I've mentioned before that I'm a logistics professional, so I can speak in a general way some of the reasons Europe isn't as good of an option, although of course I am completely in the dark as to the specific agreements Paizo has with their printer, so it is only general knowledge.
Seattle is a decent sized container port, with good roads and not terrible traffic, so the logistical constraints of getting goods off a ship from China to their office is relatively low, and the speed from end to end is relatively quick, even for low priority traffic. Any further inland and you'd start seeing increased delays and expense, but Paizo is in a good spot for container deliveries out of Asia (assuming that's what they use).
Meanwhile shipping from Europe would add a week lead time, minimum. I have personally seen containers lose two to three weeks in transit from coast to coast, more during "peak" seasons due to needing to transfer rail service and the East coast ports being kind of a hot mess to begin with. Shipping from Europe through Canada might be easier; I've not had to deal with Canadian supply chains in a professional capacity, so I don't know them as well.
You could of course forgo the rails and truck the product coast to coast, but the expense on that is best described as "lots and lots." Usually air freight would fall into the same category, but I'm actually not sure how that has played out this year. I'll have to bug some contacts and ask.
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It strikes me that there's something... strange... about our global economy that it makes sense to have a whole bunch of books printed on one continent and then shipped to another continent, rather than printed on the continent they will be distributed from. The cost in terms of real resources (not money, but fuel, whatever damage the fossil fuel does to the environment, etc.) of shipping stuff across the ocean is something. For Paizo's books, it's probably a truly insignificant effect in the global scheme of things, but Paizo is hardly alone; this is standard practice for a LOT of manufacturing. (What fraction of the stuff sold at Wal-Mart is produced in China? And Wal-Mart in the US and Canada sell a LOT of stuff, many orders of magnitude more than Paizo does.) For a small operation like Paizo's, it's impossible to avoid some shipping of stuff around. But our economy has made it cheaper to ship reams of stuff across the ocean when there's no technical reason it couldn't be produced a whole lot closer (and, thus, cheaper in terms of fuel, etc.) to where it's going to be distributed from.
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But our economy has made it cheaper to ship reams of stuff across the ocean when there's no technical reason it couldn't be produced a whole lot closer (and, thus, cheaper in terms of fuel, etc.) to where it's going to be distributed from.
Not really cheaper, most years. A standard container ship carries between 3000-5000 TEUs. Each TEU is roughly 20-40 tons of freight. That's about 6-10 times the capacity of a freight train (approximately 500 TEUs fully loaded for an 8000' train).
Now currently, with container ships carrying between 20-80% of their normal cargo, the cost per container has of course gone up. But fuel prices have also sunk, so it is evening out.
TLDR: Even if the cost of goods is the same, shipping via ocean is so efficient it may well be cheaper to ship from Asia to a coastal city like Seattle than from, say, Winnipeg. If Paizo was further inland, even only a few hours like Vegas or Spokane, that might be different.
Seattle is a decent sized container port, with good roads and not terrible traffic...Uh...
That's my professional assessment (and if it explains it a bit, skips the downtown area entirely because that's irrelevant to both general freight logistics and the specific case of Paizo). There are so many worse places to work with.
I lived in the Seattle area for five years fifteen years ago, if you avoid I-5 during rush hour or the sun comes out on the 405 traffic isn't so bad.
According to the very broad language of the recent executive order Paizo, and everyone else in the industry for that matter, might be required to print somewhere else.
I am not a lawyer so I may be misinterpreting this.
Humbly,
Yawar
I don't blame Paizo at all and maybe my words were harsh but I don't believe them to be false or misleading.
I applaud Paizo for their stances and their opinions even when I disagree.
I purchase my Paizo products locally and know how tight margins can be for them so China is probably the only option currently.
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Keep in mind the reality of printing costs ...
Some people claim they would pay more for a big hardcover book printed in the U.S. (or Canada etc.) but most people will not, it’s just that simple. What I think most people probably don’t realize is that the cost would not be just a few dollars more, It would be a fairly significant increase. Instead of of say, a hardcover at the current $49.99 price, the same book might realistically cost $65 or more if printed in the U.S.
Like I say, some people might be OK with that additional cost, but most would not.
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It's pretty hard to find a nation without a reason to boycott at this stage. :(
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And then the print run drops and the costs per volume go up farther.Keep in mind the reality of printing costs ...
Some people claim they would pay more for a book printed in the U.S. (or Canada etc.) but most people will not, it’s just that simple. What I think most people probably don’t realize is that the cost would not be just a few dollars more, It would be a fairly significant increase. Instead of of say, a hardcover at the current $49.99 price, the same book might realistically cost $65 or more if printed in the U.S.
Like I say, some people might be OK with that additional cost, but most would not.
Yep
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but most would not.
Given the fanatical devotion generally shown towards Paizo, I don’t think anyone can reasonably guess with any any level of certainty how this, or frankly any other change, might affect Paizo’s revenue (not at all, a little, some, many, most, all). I’m sure there is a price point at which there could possibly be a significantly measurable decrease in sales, but none of us has any idea where that mark is. I could imagine Paizo increasing all prices by 50% and it having nearly no effect at all. Or it could close the doors. No way of knowing until it happens and then it’s too late if it was too far.
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But Paizo doesn't really have to sell those of us constantly trolling the forums. They have to sell to the guy who is more casual gamer, who can get all the rules online for free, or might buy the D&D 5E instead because it's cheaper.
To use a sport analogy, we on the forums are season ticket holders. But for every season ticket holder there are 10 or 100 or 1000 people who are casual fans, watch the games if they are on TV.
While what we spend at the stadium on Sundays is a boost to the bottom line, the real money is from the 1000 pairs of eyeballs on the TV or the 100s of ball caps or key rings or branded garden gnomes.