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That's not the entire thread.
Its actually a more fighter archetype since requires Trained with an Advanced Uncommon Martial Weapon, doenst provide any killing move, just some spells and a polymorph, and ofcourse, proficiency advancement on Sawtooth Saber.
Really disappointed.
I hope to see an actual Assassin archetype anytime soon... or one that at least marries with the rogue class (Assassin, Shadow Dancer...)
One of the reasons i started to play PF1 was that whole new idea of Archetypes and they said "you dont have to waste 7 levels playing something you dont want to finally begin the first level on something you want, you start playing from the beginning" they were talking about prestige classes on 3.5 - and this concept was awesome.
But now it i get this Master Strike (Assassinate) at lv 18!!! and nothing prior that that makes me feel im playing the character i want. Because Poisons itself suck beyond some level (and its really costly, so it cant be part of character theme, is an circumstantial accessory). The Dedication Feat with bad scaling DC makes it not OK even with Alchemist Dedication (so i cant play a "Poisoner" and PoisonWeapon feat, lets face it: suck. And burns TWO class feats)... on top of that they took away the two-weapon rogue, they (again) made a lv 18 feat something that could be happening MUCH earlier... and still made it a hell difficult to achieve (now that fighter ded is str 14 and str dex).
Idk if im just frustrated or anyone else feels the same way... i was excited about Crimson Assassin and they delivered me a fighter Archetype. So much love for fighters in this edition ha?
What’s the crimson assassin?
What’s the crimson assassin?
d20pfsrd's Golarion free name for the Red Mantis Assassin.
What’s the crimson assassin?
It's the Red Mantis Assassin with the copyright scrubbed off for the purposes of d20pfsrd. That doesn't explain the OP though since the RMA's abilities don't match up with what they're talking about.
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The Red Mantis Assassin is exactly what it is supposed to be. They are magic using killers that worship a Mantis god. You are probably gonna get what you want in the APG.
Oh, right! Ha. That’s clever.
Yeah, a lot of the archetypes in that book have been described by people who have the book (I don’t) as teasers, intros and freebies. Current thinking/hoping seems to be those archetypes will get fleshed out in future products.
So your not alone in being generally unhappy with it. I personally only plan to cannibalise them for homebrew myself.
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What’s the crimson assassin?It's the Red Mantis Assassin with the copyright scrubbed off for the purposes of d20pfsrd. That doesn't explain the OP though since the RMA's abilities don't match up with what they're talking about.
He kind of has a point about the way the archetype is directed. The PF1 PrC was very much aimed at rogues and other similar characters.
In PF2 rogues can't even access the level 2 dedication feat until level 8 if they aren't human or human adopted. Fighters are the only class who can pick up the feat at their intended level without being human, even.
The archetype is also lacking in combat/offensive options, which can feel kind of strange considering it's called an assassin. Their signature Prayer Attack from PF1 doesn't even exist anymore. I can see why that would throw somebody off.
Finally, it's not listed in the OP but I think it's a little problematic that they're a fixed-list caster whose whole list is buried in a feat. That means they're probably not going to get many opportunities to expand their options. Granted it's a super niche list by design, but it still feels like something that could be a pain down the road.
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Finally, it's not listed in the OP but I think it's a little problematic that they're a fixed-list caster whose whole list is buried in a feat. That means they're probably not going to get many opportunities to expand their options. Granted it's a super niche list by design, but it still feels like something that could be a pain down the road.
Their list also covers all Transmutation and Illusion spells from the Arcane list. So it's quite a bit bigger than you're implying here, and that segment of it will get added to whenever those Schools get more spells in the Arcane list.
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Well, the Red Mantis Assassin is a very specific type of assassin. Frankly there's nothing stopping a Fighter from being an assassin in PF2 anyways since they aren't so severely limited on skills... and if you're looking for a class that's the most "assassiny" out of the box, I'd argue that that's the Ranger, not the Rogue. And Rangers can get into RMA about as easily as the Fighter can.
I'd expect a more generic Assassin archetype to come out in the APG next year, which won't have a weapon restriction and isn't obligated to do mantis things.
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Well, the Red Mantis Assassin is a very specific type of assassin. Frankly there's nothing stopping a Fighter from being an assassin in PF2 anyways since they aren't so severely limited on skills... and if you're looking for a class that's the most "assassiny" out of the box, I'd argue that that's the Ranger, not the Rogue. And Rangers can get into RMA about as easily as the Fighter can.
I'd expect a more generic Assassin archetype to come out in the APG next year, which won't have a weapon restriction and isn't obligated to do mantis things.
Crimson Assassin in PF1 was very specific about Prayer attack (similar to assassinate of the Assassin) and the Sneak attack advancement. The core concept embraces rogues as main choices for the class (and obviously you can MC with wharever you want... but even this case is not the case HERE, since we cant go for it with rogues - we cant.). Now is just a fighter archetype that proficients you in a pair of swords, not an "Assassin" ... and Rangers are "slayers", not "Assassins", if you know what i mean.
Just read the archetypes/classes that points you to assassination and the ones that points you to "slaying/hunting" and you can see the clear difference.
And yes, i guess youre right about the APG next year, i REALLY HOPE they come up with something cool to compensate and not these super conservative archetypes...
PS: Some archetypes are indeed cool, but not going further here cuz its not the thread is about.
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You can't even coup de grace in PF2 or take someone permanently out of a fight with a spell except on a crit fail, of course there isn't going to be an assassinate ability.
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You can't even coup de grace in PF2 or take someone permanently out of a fight with a spell except on a crit fail, of course there isn't going to be an assassinate ability.
Could still be some kind of super sneak attack that does massive damage. I mean, most poisons deal "just" damage too...
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You can't even coup de grace in PF2 or take someone permanently out of a fight with a spell except on a crit fail, of course there isn't going to be an assassinate ability.
Right?
Don't expect "assassination" to be a one-shot like before, unless you're talking about Master Strike....at 20th. So essentially all Rogues are Assassins, eventually. And all classes that have precision damage continue to progress in their precision damage when they're Red Mantis.The prayer attack would be able to keep the fascination effect, but not the killing blow. Fascination could be duplicated via their spells, though yes, perhaps a Focus Spell would've been better.
And why does anybody presume you have to enter the Archetype at 2nd (or else!)? That's much earlier than you could be a Red Mantis Assassin in PF1.
Maybe the Red Mantis don't want Rogues anymore since they've found others who were better with the signature weapon and had the skill set? :)
Re: Who's an assassin?
Back in Greyhawk, the head of the Guild of Assassins was a Fighter. Though Assassin was a class, many of the other top assassins also weren't Assassins, but simply people really good at killing for coin. And who know who's off limits. Lore: Assassin is enough to be a working assassin.
And yes, poison is bad, but it's so, so much better than ever in the post-"save or die" era. A trait it kinda had to discard. I think it'll come to fruition sometime in PF2.
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Fitting spellcasting into an archetype takes a lot of wordcount, and Paizo only had one page.
Personally I'm glad they got the spellcasting and spell-likes in there, because other "assassin" abilities you can get from multiclassing rogue or ranger. Things like Mantis Form and Crimson Shroud, not so much.
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Fitting spellcasting into an archetype takes a lot of wordcount, and Paizo only had one page.
Personally I'm glad they got the spellcasting and spell-likes in there, because other "assassin" abilities you can get from multiclassing rogue or ranger. Things like Mantis Form and Crimson Shroud, not so much.
Its pretty easy to flag "Assassin" apart from "slayer" and "mercenary" just by getting back to what it was in PF1.
Im not saying "we need a insta-kill coup-de-grace thing" ... its not 8-80, but think about a 2 action [>>] Assassinate, that requires the target not seeing you, and you deal some extra amount of Sneak attack damage. Its not new!! Power attack exists!!
Some ways to coat yor weapon with poison damage that doesnt suck, or change the dmg type of precision to poison damage, doenst raise the numbers but provides versatility within the theme. Poison DCs scaling with the class.... there are a LOT of creative solutions to bring the experience of "Assassin" do lower brackets before we rely on the Master Strike at lv 19 (or 18, wharever). Thats what im talking about.
And Crimson Assassin is(was) all about it, assassins with some spells with actual ASSASSIN MOVES and not just "ok, use these swords, kill them with it" ... "how?" ... "doubleslice it until it dies... i mean, youre a fighter right?"
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Yeah, I don't see any problem here, anybody expecting 1E mechanics must be aped is in for alot of disappointment.
What I don't get is why? Other games have radically changed mechanics (e.g. Star Wars) people don't whine for reproducing mechanics.
I guess most other RPGs are more inherently thematic, and people playing Pathfinder for "generic D&D" focus more on mechanics?
Notably, I think the rogue is a fairly fantastic assassin on it's own (and the people bringing up the ranger and fighter aren't wrong either), and while I'm sure they could do an archetype for a generic assassin type its pretty clear that this one isn't supposed to be it, in the sense that red mantis assassins aren't generic assassins.
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Notably, I think the rogue is a fairly fantastic assassin on it's own (and the people bringing up the ranger and fighter aren't wrong either), and while I'm sure they could do an archetype for a generic assassin type its pretty clear that this one isn't supposed to be it, in the sense that red mantis assassins aren't generic assassins.
They are anything close to any type of assassin, they are sawtooth saber warriors. Period. Nothing in their mechanic stands for the "assassin" on its title. It did before, but not now.
Dedication: requires proficiency with sawtooth sabers (hello fighter-only), and lets you increase your proficiency above that (expert and on..).
Crimson Shroud: a veil of smoke-wharever that gives you 1 AC, one time use.... until the end of next round. And (wait for it...) gives you the option that, when you die if you have this veil up, you can choose to turn yourself into a pile of red smoky dust and vanish forever. "No ressurrections this time" - Thanos.
Basic Cantrip Feat: Cantrips
Advanced Spell Feat (Gives you access to a specific list of spellss from level 1st to 4th max.)
Mantis Form: You turn into... a mantis :D Polymorph.
Thats it. Thats what it does.
Crimson Assassin :)))))))))
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To try to put it another way, I don't think the problem so much is that other classes can access this archetype, that's obviously fine. It's more that the rogue is fantastically bad at getting into the archetype despite the rogue seeming like it should be a natural entry for the class given their shared thematics.
Ultimately though that's more just another problem with PF2's proficiency system than anything else.
And why does anybody presume you have to enter the Archetype at 2nd (or else!)? That's much earlier than you could be a Red Mantis Assassin in PF1.
No one said you 'have' to, but it feels pretty bad to not be able to take a level 2 feat until level 8 at the earliest without a specific heritage option.
The Red Mantis Assassin is exactly what it is supposed to be.
Is it? To be sure, mantis form and crimson shroud aren't new abilities and the archetype isn't what I'd call terrible, but I think if three weeks ago you told people the Red Mantis Assassin was going to be a fighter-centric archetype that provides a good way for front line combatants to get fast healing and wizard-style casting from a limited list you'd get some weird looks.
Not quite what the OP is talking about, but I'm not a huge fan of its spellcasting feats either. Basic Spellcasting from an archetype gives you 1-3rd level spells while the mantis feat only gives you first level spells. I get that RMAs aren't supposed to be power house spellcasters, but you're still spending the same amount of your feat budget as everyone else is, it's just worth less.
Presumably Golarion contains all sorts of people who will kill for money who aren't associated with Achaekek (such as those associated with Norgorber.)
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They are anything close to any type of assassin, they are sawtooth saber warriors. Period. Nothing in their mechanic stands for the "assassin" on its title. It did before, but not now.
What makes someone an assassin? A willingness to murder for money or political influence? A feat wouldn't give you that. Martial prowess making you capable of murdering for money or political influence? You get that, sawtooth sabre proficiency increases and is slightly better than comparable weapons. The ability to infiltrate your target's stronghold, get them to trust you alone, and kill them? You get that, there are numerous illusions and enchantments that will help with that.
What you don't get is any ability which DnD and PF have historically linked to assassins, such as sneak attack or assassinate. Instead you get abilities that differentiate the red mantis assassins from the run-of-the-mill assassin. It is bad that the archetype doesn't work with rogues, but the archetype does help you be an assassin, in the sense that you are someone who murders people for money or political influence.
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Almost all canonical members are Humans or Half Elves. Human Rogues can qualify for Red Mantis Assassin at 2nd level. Half Elves and Half Orcs can do so at 4th.
The other Classes common in the Red Mantis based on PF1 are Clerics (who qualify for the Archetype at 2nd regardless of Ancestry due to Swatooth Sabers being their God's Favored Weapon), and Rangers (who qualify at 4th regardless of Ancestry).
Honestly given the restrictions on Sneak Attack I would have been fine with giving Rogues all Martial Weapons. It would pretty much amount to the same thing, but make these hoops a little easier to jump through. Not sure about how to handle Ruffians though.
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You seem to be looking for a class archetype... we haven't gotten a class archetype yet.
"It may be possible to take a class archetype at 1st level if it alters or replaces some of the class’s initial class features. In that case, you must take that archetype’s dedication feat at 2nd level, and after that you proceed normally. You can never have more than one class archetype."
The archetype you are looking at is closer to a prestige class. And it is entirely focused on golarion lore.
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And Crimson Assassin is(was) all about it, assassins with some spells with actual ASSASSIN MOVES and not just "ok, use these swords, kill them with it" ... "how?" ... "doubleslice it until it dies... i mean, youre a fighter right?"
What makes an assassin an assassin? A specific death strike move, or the willingness to murder people for money/at someone else's orders?
I think it's kind telling that you keep calling them Crimson Assassins. That's not what they're called in the book. In the book they're Red Mantis Assassins, and it makes it clear what they're about: people imitating a mantis god. So naturally they're going to be a bit on the wacky supernatural side.
And when you look at it, their abilities actually make them quite good assassins in the sense of people that you hire to murder someone. Transmutation and illusion magic and those specific spells help them get to their targets and get away again. Part of being a professional assassin is surviving the job so you can get another gig.
The shroud is where their religious side comes out to play. You can decide "I'm not going to get captured/interrogated; if I fail the mission I'm not coming back". It's not a very attractive thing to do as a PC, but given that you have to be Lawful Evil to even take the Dedication, this wasn't written for entirely normal PCs to begin with.
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I always rated it by the death strike. That was the main difference between the 1st edition (D&D) rogue and assassin. So I always figured that was what they needed.
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I think a lot of archetypes, not just the Red Mantis Assassin, are really limited just by virtue of only getting a single page. I understand that word and page counts are a thing, but keeping these down to one page per archetype already seems like a bad prescient to set to me.
I think it's kind telling that you keep calling them Crimson Assassins. That's not what they're called in the book. In the book they're Red Mantis Assassins, and it makes it clear what they're about: people imitating a mantis god. So naturally they're going to be a bit on the wacky supernatural side.
Yeah, I completely understand not wanting to buy the book, especially if you aren’t playing in Golarion.
But attacking the flavour of something that you’ve only read out of context of that flavour is a bit silly.
I think a lot of archetypes, not just the Red Mantis Assassin, are really limited just by virtue of only getting a single page.
You and me both! I really hope it’s simply a consequence of trying to squeeze player crunch in what is a lore book (to entice players to buy it). It would be a terrible mistake for them to make all future archetypes 1 page. So I don’t think we need to doom and gloom yet.
Doesn’t next month’s hardcover have archetypes? Hopefully those will be more fleshed out.
You and me both! I really hope it’s simply a consequence of trying to squeeze player crunch in what is a lore book (to entice players to buy it). It would be a terrible mistake for them to make all future archetypes 1 page. So I don’t think we need to doom and gloom yet.
Doesn’t next month’s hardcover have archetypes? Hopefully those will be more fleshed out.
I think there was an indication of the APG having sixty pages of archetypes, and that working out to about sixty archetypes, so I suspect that this is close to the archetype size we'll be getting for a while. (Although if you've got sixty pages of archetypes, I dunno if they'll be doing an art piece for every page, so it might go up a little bit.)
Regarding "being able to kill someone who is unaware of you long enough for you to set up a fatal blow" that seems like something that could just be a (Master) stealth feat (assuming it's wholly useless in combat).
Or a stealth and medicine skill feat (no reason we can't have skill feats with two tags right?) to like "be able to identify vital areas which would cause instant incapacitation, and being sneaky enough to get in position to sever someone's spinal cord without them noticing."
I think there was an indication of the APG having sixty pages of archetypes, and that working out to about sixty archetypes, so I suspect that this is close to the archetype size we'll be getting for a while. (Although if you've got sixty pages of archetypes, I dunno if they'll be doing an art piece for every page, so it might go up a little bit.)You and me both! I really hope it’s simply a consequence of trying to squeeze player crunch in what is a lore book (to entice players to buy it). It would be a terrible mistake for them to make all future archetypes 1 page. So I don’t think we need to doom and gloom yet.
Doesn’t next month’s hardcover have archetypes? Hopefully those will be more fleshed out.
To put it bluntly: given how crap these archetypes seem to be I hope your wrong.
I still hold out hope.
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I mean, one thing to consider is that unlike PF1 archetypes, these archetypes are extensible. You can always print more feats for whatever archetype as appropriate.
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Yes Cabbage. But let's not accept substandard content just because it CAN be fixed later. You know what's better then publishing an incomplete archetype and fixing it later? Publishing a complete one in the first place.
Just because Paizo messed up on their first supplement when it comes to archetypes doesnt mean they will continue to mess up all future archetypes.
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I don't know if an archetype is really "incomplete" if it only has a few feats, provided it fulfills its purpose of enabling that content. Then we can see, with whatever metrics Paizo wants to use, which archetypes are popular and supplement those with more stuff.
It's not totally unlike how there are no 17th level ancestry feats, when there absolutely will be eventually- character options now are going to be primarily ones that are appropriate for low level characters because that's what people who are playing the game have right now.
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Lol. Alright.
The best things I’ve seen people say about the archetypes in LOWG is that they’re a good start, teaser or freebie. You can consider those complete if you want. There are those who very clearly seem to disagree.
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From a home brew design perspective I've tried my hand at a Final Fantasy style dragoon archetype. I got all the way up to 13 feats and still feel like I could add a few more. So just from my own experience I can't see how one page is enough to include everything one would want in a fully fleshed out archetype (expect perhaps the multi class archetypes, as they have 10 levels worth of cross class feats to choose from by default).
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If they were to add feats to them with nearly every book, at what point would you no longer consider them incomplete?
At the point where people whose opinion I respect consider them to actually be good and worthwhile rather than “teasers”.
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If they were to add feats to them with nearly every book, at what point would you no longer consider them incomplete?At the point where people whose opinion I respect consider them to actually be good and worthwhile rather than “teasers”.
So it’s not a matter of being “incomplete” then.
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Lol. Alright.
The best things I’ve seen people say about the archetypes in LOWG is that they’re a good start, teaser or freebie. You can consider those complete if you want. There are those who very clearly seem to disagree.
I mean, that should be fairly obvious. Archetypes, the way they are in this system, is fairly new territory; and a number of them, with how they’re designed, naturally get more valuable and powerful with additional content. It was also a chance to show unique themes of the lands and the unique flavors archetypes can express.
I doubt the 60 pages in APG will directly equate to 60 archetypes, but it does inevitably depend on what archetypes they want to explore.
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Honestly the archetypes we got vary considerably in power (looking at you Magic Warrior) but overall they're not incomplete, they're both good and worthwhile, some seem designed to be continued into other archetypes, but not in the sense that they aren't sufficient packages on their own, just that doing so is a potential thing archetypes can do to offer even more comprehensive flavor for the organization or concept they're representing.
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Lol. Alright.
The best things I’ve seen people say about the archetypes in LOWG is that they’re a good start, teaser or freebie. You can consider those complete if you want. There are those who very clearly seem to disagree.
I don't think this is true at all.
Two of them could really use expansion (Hellknight Armiger and Red Mantis Assassin...the former is getting it for sure in the form of other Hellknight Archetypes), and one is just mechanically bad (Magic Warrior), but the other seven seem fun and relatively complete already.
They're not overwhelmingly powerful or anything, and the Rare bit in Living Monolith is just strange, but all but Magic Warrior and maybe Hellknight Armiger are perfectly serviceable on their own. All are quite good for the right character, really.
I don't think Armiger is bad, assuming that the Hellknight achetype is good. Mortification and the Mobility feats seem pretty good if the whole "tanky heavy armored Hellknight" is what you're going for.
Diablolic Certitude seems reasonable (it's a skill feat) if there's a high chance of encountering devils.
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I am not so disappointed in these archetypes. I haven't looked over the magic warrior (as mentioned upthread), but these others seem pretty good as something attached to another class.
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Lol. Alright.
The best things I’ve seen people say about the archetypes in LOWG is that they’re a good start, teaser or freebie. You can consider those complete if you want. There are those who very clearly seem to disagree.
To be fair, the negative thoughts tend to be more vocal online. This applies to most products. We've had a lot more "trap this, trap that" threads than positive ones, or least that's how it feels. I believe there were threads on first week already complaining about balance and how much of a trap things were before people actually got to play.