I am trying to understand the ins and outs of Pathfinder 2e, and thought I would start by trying out a Human Fighter build (traditionally, a relatively simple character, so a good place to start if I don't know what I am doing).
So I am going to try to list various character choices and post it here so that people can answer some questions:
1) Is this build legal? Have I broken some rule in character generation or advancement? If so, what?
2) Is this build feasible? Have I left some glaring holes that I should cover to make the character useful to a party? Are there too many redundancies in the build?
Ok, here goes! Caveats: I heard that Gnome Flickmaces are good, so that will be the weapon I will build around. Also, I haven't looked into magic items for what I "should" have at higher levels. I assume I would get magic weapon and armour, given a choice. Stat boosting items if they exist too.
Jack (every inch a) Sailor (background) Neutral Good Human Fighter. (+2 str, +2 con)
Ancestry: Unconventional Weaponry (Gnome Flickmace). (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 con, -2 int, -2 chr) (took the two voluntary flaws).
Heritage: Versatile Heritage: General Feat: Fleet.
Language: Common.
Sailor: Skills: Athletics, Sailor Lore. Feat: Underwater Marauder.
Fighter: Skills: Stealth, Medicine, Acrobatics. (+2 str) (I will have a int penalty so I assume I am down one skill).
Feats: Sudden Charge, Shield Block (free)
Special Ability: Attack of Opportunity
Four free ability raises: (+2 str, +2 dex, +2 con, +2 wis).
So at level one: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Chr 8. (I assume I don't lose the ability to speak my only language!).
So the total of trained skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Medicine, Sailor Lore, Stealth.
total starting feats: Fleet, Shield Block, Sudden Charge, Unconventional Weaponry (gnome flickmace), Underwater Marauder.
Start with Fighter's Kit. I think I get a Gnome Flickmace for free via the feat. If not, buy it. Upgrade armour to Chain Mail (noisy, which is bad for stealth, but flexible for no penalties to acrobatics or athletics). Perhaps choose a bow in case I need to shoot someone far away and can't get at them otherwise.
Ok, on to higher levels! I won't list what fighters get automatically, but only abilities where I have to make a choice.
Level 2: Sudden Charge, Powerful Leap
Level 3: Toughness. Athletics (Expert)
Level 4: Knockdown, Rapid Mantel (stop using a shield around now, if I use one at all).
Level 5: +1 str; +2 dex, con, wis. Natural Ambition (Exacting Strike). Acrobatics (Expert). Weapon Group Mastery (Flail).
Level 6: Guardian's Deflection, Titan Wrestler (definitely stop using a shield around now).
Level 7: Die Hard. Athletics (Master).
Level 8: Sudden Leap, Combat Climber.
Level 9: Clever Improvisor. Acrobatics (Master). Floating Feat usually Felling Strike.
Level 10: +1 str, con; +2 dex, wis. Improved Knockdown, Cat Fall.
Level 11: Breath Control. Stealth (Expert).
Level 12: Lunging Stance, Quick Swim.
Level 13: Unconventional Expertise. Stealth (Master).
Level 14: Whirlwind Strike, Quick Climber.
Level 15: +1 str, dex, con; +2 wis. Incredible Initiative. Athletics (Legendary). Floating Feat usually Disruptive Stance.
Level 16: Guiding Finish, Cloud Jump.
Level 17: General Training: Canny Acumen (Will Save). Acrobatics (Legendary).
Level 18: Savage Critical, Kip up.
Level 19: Quick Squeeze, Stealth (Legendary).
Level 20: +1 str, dex. +2 int, chr. Extra trained skill from int boost: Nature (I assume going from 8 to 10 in int does not grant an extra language). Boundless Reprisals, Steady Balance.
Anyhow, thanks to anyone that bothers to read this. Greater thanks to anyone that bothers to respond!
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It's pretty much legal (a handful of details aside), though personally I think selling down Int and Cha for a +1 Con Mod is unnecessary and less than ideal.
On armor, your Str is 18, you will never suffer Armor Check Penalties, as those are only for people who don't meet the Str Minimum (you also reduce movement penalties of armor by 5 feet). So Chain Mail is maybe not a great choice.
Per the people at Paizo, Humans are supposed to get one bonus language, so you should get one extra for free.
You do not get an actual Gnome Flickmace from the Feat, just access to it, so you need to buy it.
Well I guess the language of gnomes would be the obvious choice. It would explain the gnome flickmace training.
So when it comes to armor choice is movement more important than AC or vice-versa? Or are they about equivalent?
I guess starting with Hide ain’t so bad with 14 dex. Eventually I would improve dex and either choose movement or AC when switching armor.
Thanks for responding! I just had a “Did I leave the oven on? Did I remember to lock the door?” feeling and wanted to make sure I wasn’t making a character with a glaring flaw that could wreck its ability to contribute meaningfully.
Movement wise, you only take a penalty if the armor has -10ft (str negates 5) or you don't meet the Str requirements. Mythril fullplate has no movement penalties either.
If you're not locked into the flickmace, one alternative I found fun for a shield fighter is taking up Double Slice, which lets you shieldbash and attack with main weapon at a -2 to the second hit. Since I'm using a spear and shield, it works well aesthetically.
What kind of weapon style do you want to use? So Flickmace with shield is good but i wouldn't dual wield with flickmace. When going two-handed weapons flickmace is obviously not your thing.
Why sailor background?
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
puksone wrote: Why sailor background? I'm guessing it was to get underwater marauder. It's one of the few skill feats that is really useful in combat, and a combat build seems to be what he's building.
Ravingdork wrote: puksone wrote: Why sailor background? I'm guessing it was to get underwater marauder. It's one of the few skill feats that is really useful in combat, and a combat build seems to be what he's building. That feat seems really nice on martial classes since it's much easier to shove enemies into water and jump in after them. Unless they've got it, free flat-footed all around.
You have Sudden Charge listed as your class feat for both 1st and 2nd level.
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Corvo Spiritwind wrote: Ravingdork wrote: puksone wrote: Why sailor background? I'm guessing it was to get underwater marauder. It's one of the few skill feats that is really useful in combat, and a combat build seems to be what he's building. That feat seems really nice on martial classes since it's much easier to shove enemies into water and jump in after them. Unless they've got it, free flat-footed all around. It's also a nice feat for Fighters because if your weapon group (i.e. flails for the flick mace) lacks piercing options, you don't lose your main shtick underwater.
Plus Sailing Lore is one of the few Lores that grants a physical skill, not just Recall Knowledge. I have several sailors because that just seems more adventurous than most choices.
If planning to use a shield, and if you get that Int back, think about Craft so you can fix your shield's damage during lulls.
LuniasM wrote: You have Sudden Charge listed as your class feat for both 1st and 2nd level. Oh shoot you are right! That should be Lunge at level 2.
As for shield I was thinking of getting a gnome flickmace and steel shield for low levels but then going one handed with a free hand at higher levels once I get feats that require a free hand to use, which I think happens at level 4 with knockdown and if not, then at level 6 with the guardian’s deflection feat.
Particle_Man wrote: LuniasM wrote: You have Sudden Charge listed as your class feat for both 1st and 2nd level. Oh shoot you are right! That should be Lunge at level 2.
As for shield I was thinking of getting a gnome flickmace and steel shield for low levels but then going one handed with a free hand at higher levels once I get feats that require a free hand to use, which I think happens at level 4 with knockdown and if not, then at level 6 with the guardian’s deflection feat. While I approve of Lunge, especially when you have reach and get so many extra squares to hit, look at Combat Grab if you want a free hand anyway.
It's a free grab. No extra actions, no roll if you hit. Just free.
Except it is on a Press, but those will be common enough.
Knockdown requires the hit, and both an extra action and a successful roll.
I missed something. What is the physical skill that sailing lore grants? Do you mean the athletics skill that sailors get?
Anyhow, thanks for all of the replies!
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Is it right? That is not the way that I would build a fighter, and so by definition it is wrong! How dare you?
How. Dare. You.
Particle_Man wrote: I missed something. What is the physical skill that sailing lore grants? Do you mean the athletics skill that sailors get?
Anyhow, thanks for all of the replies!
Lore lumps a bunch of skill types, physical, cerebral, social, etc., which is fine when your game isn't about pursuing careers.
Sailing Lore's physical skill is the ability to sail, much like the Farmer background Lore grants the physical ability to farm (even if you had in mind a farm administrator). Having a physical aspect to one's Lore suits a certain PC mindset IMO. (For tougher sailing chores, Athletics would be called for at times.)
I suppose a Barrister also learns to pound tables. :)
(Hmm...or maybe they could get a maul. Barbarian Barrister?!)
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Castilliano wrote: Particle_Man wrote: I missed something. What is the physical skill that sailing lore grants? Do you mean the athletics skill that sailors get?
Anyhow, thanks for all of the replies!
Lore lumps a bunch of skill types, physical, cerebral, social, etc., which is fine when your game isn't about pursuing careers.
Sailing Lore's physical skill is the ability to sail, much like the Farmer background Lore grants the physical ability to farm (even if you had in mind a farm administrator). Having a physical aspect to one's Lore suits a certain PC mindset IMO. (For tougher sailing chores, Athletics would be called for at times.) That or your GM can ask you to roll your lore check but use a different ability tied to your proficiency. Using sailing lore + Dex instead of sailing lore + Wis for tying a rigging knot, for example.
Castilliano wrote: I suppose a Barrister also learns to pound tables. :)
(Hmm...or maybe they could get a maul. Barbarian Barrister?!)
Never break the law around The Barbarrister. Breaking the law makes her angry.
And you wouldn't like her when she's angry.
I am liking combat grab and might make that my usual floating feat at 15th and I like certain strike and could make that my level 16 feat.
I assume that all of these feats are “either/or”? I cannot use lunge with combat grab or combat grab with certain strike buy pick one and only one feat to use with my action, if the feat costs an action?
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Particle_Man wrote: I am liking combat grab and might make that my usual floating feat at 15th and I like certain strike and could make that my level 16 feat.
I assume that all of these feats are “either/or”? I cannot use lunge with combat grab or combat grab with certain strike buy pick one and only one feat to use with my action, if the feat costs an action?
Correct, either/or. Lunge is an action which allows you to make a strike, modified with +5 reach. It doesn't passively modify all strikes you make. Same with Certain Strike.
I think I would give up Lunge and Lunging Stance both now. Combat Grab at level 2, then at level 10+ go for Improved Knockdown, Disruptive Stance, Whirlwind Strike and Certain Strike. The usual floating feat at 15th would be Combat Reflexes.
So if I have a reach weapon and use Knockdown and my weapon doesn't have the "trip" trait, do I need to have the person within reach of my arm to trip them or is being within reach of the weapon enough?
Particle_Man wrote: I think I would give up Lunge and Lunging Stance both now. Combat Grab at level 2, then at level 10+ go for Improved Knockdown, Disruptive Stance, Whirlwind Strike and Certain Strike. The usual floating feat at 15th would be Combat Reflexes.
So if I have a reach weapon and use Knockdown and my weapon doesn't have the "trip" trait, do I need to have the person within reach of my arm to trip them or is being within reach of the weapon enough?
If your weapon doesn't have trip, you can't be using it to trip.
So you can't take advantage of its reach.
But on that subject, you can always use a shifting rune on your weapon, and shift it to a desirable form based upon your current needs.
The build looks good overall, keeping in mind what people have recommended above. The only other smaller recommendation I might have is considering heavy armor. It's effectively +1 AC for -5' speed, and that's generally a good trade-off when you can make it. You won't get any ACP from it either, though because it's -10', that's reduced to -5.
Basically, Heavy armor is strictly better than Medium armor (minus the movement) given that there's no Touch AC these days and it caps at a net +6 vs net +5. I don't know of any other penalty for using heavy armor relative to medium.
If you go this route, you can still boost Dexterity, if that's what you want to do. You have the option of not boosting it at this point, but it's very useful for CMD and the like (trip operates off of Reflex saves). Full Plate would give you +3 on AoE spells, but that's only one portion of what you might be hit by.
shroudb wrote: Particle_Man wrote: So if I have a reach weapon and use Knockdown and my weapon doesn't have the "trip" trait, do I need to have the person within reach of my arm to trip them or is being within reach of the weapon enough? If your weapon doesn't have trip, you can't be using it to trip.
So you can't take advantage of its reach.
I can see that for Knockdown. What about Improved Knockdown, where it seems to apply to the Strike of the weapon itself? Does the weapon still need the "trip" trait to simply apply the critical success of a trip to that strike, as per the feat, without making a trip action?
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Knockdown skips the requirements entirely, as does Improved Knockdown. Both have specific language that would indeed let you trip at range with a Reach weapon even though you normally can't.
Interesting. Would the size requirement of my opponent relative to me still apply?
Particle_Man wrote: Interesting. Would the size requirement of my opponent relative to me still apply? Knockdown still makes a Trip attack.
and Imp Knockdown still applies the critical effect of Trip.
So yes.
If it said "you knock your target prone" instead of "you succeed at a Trip" then it wouldn't.
Ok so I can use knockdown and improved knockdown at the weapon’s reach, but only on opponents up to one size larger than me (until I get Titan Wrestler as a feat)?
Particle_Man wrote: Ok so I can use knockdown and improved knockdown at the weapon’s reach, but only on opponents up to one size larger than me (until I get Titan Wrestler as a feat)? Correct.
Oh, I took Powerful Leap too early (not legal before I have Expertise in Athletics)! So I would move Titan Wrestler to level 2, Powerful Leap to level 4 and Rapid Mantel to level 6.
It looks like one can do a respectable “one handed weapon, no shield” build. That is unusual, particularly for a core book in the game.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Particle_Man wrote: Oh, I took Powerful Leap too early (not legal before I have Expertise in Athletics)! So I would move Titan Wrestler to level 2, Powerful Leap to level 4 and Rapid Mantel to level 6. The prerequisite timing gets me all the time too. I've had to rely on spreadsheets for all of my characters.
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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Now you can have Titan Wrestler @ 2nd level thanks to the Wrestler Dedication Archetype Feat. Gives you Expertise in Athletics, Titan Wrestler and a +2 Circumstance Bonus (IIRC) to your Fort DC when enemies try to use grapple or swallow whole on you.
shroudb wrote: Particle_Man wrote: Interesting. Would the size requirement of my opponent relative to me still apply? Knockdown still makes a Trip attack.
and Imp Knockdown still applies the critical effect of Trip. Improved Knockdown gives you the effect of a critical success on a trip. It does not give you a Trip and does not require a Trip action. So, Trip requirements (e.g. free hand) don't apply.
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