I think the mobility crane stance grants has been underestimated here especially with skill feats like quick jump.I appreciate mobility as much as the next guy Vestris, but does that really warrant bumping up crane style? I’m not so sure, especially since I don’t think IIRC stances can be used in Exploration mode?
I was mostly curious as to why you omitted to mention the mobility factor in crane stance while explicitly pointing it out for dragon stance. As I assumed crane would be the mobility stance, kinda hit and run with high ac and the potential to waste a lot of actions from opponents. Or getting out of range entirely while utilizing vertical jumps.
If that would warrant a boost in your ranking? I don't know. I haven't looked at the stances in too much detail yet but I am very happy with the many different fighting styles introduced for the monk.
So I reread Tangled Forest Stance and it was different than I thought it was. Specifically the line:
While you’re in Tangled Forest Stance and can act, every enemy in your reach that tries to move away from you must succeed at a Reflex save, Acrobatics check, or Athletics check against your class DC or be immobilized for that action.
Since this isn't a reaction, it triggers even if the enemy chooses to step instead of stride, which is neat. But my question is "how do we read 'moves away'."? Can I stop people who are moving laterally (in order to set up flanking, for example)? Or do they need to actually be increasing the linear distance I would need to move to be adjacent?
Like if someone is in the square directly in front of me, and they move one square to my left they are still in my reach, but can I stop them? It seems like the *spirit* is "yes, you can stop people from shifting to set up flanking" but the text might disagree.
I feel like what Tangled Forest should not do is "prevent people from getting closer to you." Since if you have a reach advantage over them, you shouldn't be able to stop them from getting to where they can attack, as that would be too powerful (I mean, that's what Stand Still does, and it costs a reaction, and it needs a crit to actually stop them.)
It should probably work otherwise.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like what Tangled Forest should not do is "prevent people from getting closer to you." Since if you have a reach advantage over them, you shouldn't be able to stop them from getting to where they can attack, as that would be too powerful (I mean, that's what Stand Still does, and it costs a reaction, and it needs a crit to actually stop them.)
It should probably work otherwise.
I assumed the intent was so a monk could hold enemies in the front line rather than letting them hit-and-run or break through to the squishier enemies. Not preventing them from circling you, just stopping them from disengaging and making you a bit stickier than other tanks.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The thing with Crane Stance is that it's the only stance that let you reach Champion AC with heavy armor and with the Crane reaction you reach Champion AC with the shield raised.
Basically a defensive stance that let you do cool jump stuff as bonus.
Uh, how so? The highest AC you can get with Crane Stance is:
+5 Dex (as both explorer's clothing and Bracers of Armor cap Dex at +5)
+3 Item
+3 Circumstance (reaction)
Legendary Proficiency
Total: 10+level+5+3+3+8=29+level
While a fully upgraded Mountain Stance, unless I'm getting something wrong, grants:
+4 Status
+2 Dex
+3 Item
+2 Circumstance (Mountain Stronghold, 1 action),
+ Prof
so: 10+level+4+2+3+2+8=29+level.
So Mountain Stance should net you the same AC as Crane Stance, with a couple notable drawbacks (namely, it won't stack with status bonuses and it will cost 1 action instead of a reaction), but it will work against every attack instead of just one.
Am I missing something?
The thing with Crane Stance is that it's the only stance that let you reach Champion AC with heavy armor and with the Crane reaction you reach Champion AC with the shield raised.
Basically a defensive stance that let you do cool jump stuff as bonus.
Uh, how so? The highest AC you can get with Crane Stance is:
+5 Dex (as both explorer's clothing and Bracers of Armor cap Dex at +5)
+3 Item
+3 Circumstance (reaction)
Legendary ProficiencyTotal: 10+level+5+3+3+8=29+level
While a fully upgraded Mountain Stance, unless I'm getting something wrong, grants:
+4 Status
+2 Dex
+3 Item
+2 Circumstance (Mountain Stronghold, 1 action),
+ Prof
so: 10+level+4+2+3+2+8=29+level.So Mountain Stance should net you the same AC as Crane Stance, with a couple notable drawbacks (namely, it won't stack with status bonuses and it will cost 1 action instead of a reaction), but it will work against every attack instead of just one.
Am I missing something?
Ah, so you can’t get max Dex benefits (+7) and still benefit from magical armour, whereas Str doesn’t have that problem, interesting.
it takes 2 actions to take cover behind a tower shield, it takes 1 reaction to crane, they are not really comparable.The thing with Crane Stance is that it's the only stance that let you reach Champion AC with heavy armor and with the Crane reaction you reach Champion AC with the shield raised.
Basically a defensive stance that let you do cool jump stuff as bonus.
Mountain Stance + 2 from dex and a Tower Shield taken cover behind doesn't reach? Just curious?
Edit: Though Mountain Stance will always do more damage than a crane stylist, so I guess its a bit of a trade off.
The thing is, Monks can take those two actions much more often than other classes and still get their two attacks in.
Anyway, I'm still not sold on Crane, but if people have fun with it, who am I to argue?
prototype00
Also Crane is 1 action per fight, Tower is 2 actions per TURN. Also a massive difference. Shield sacrifices lots of attacking/moving/anything else-ing, Crane doesn't. And that matters for SO much in this edition.
Heck, tower shield prevents the Mountain Quake to Flurry combo you were so fond of, among other things.
Like, you totally can make a tower shield Monk, I'm just saying it's at enough trade-off that it's far frok stomping other defensive paths, or other paths period.
(I know the quoted post was mostly just about how high a Monk could possibly get their AC in a given moment, but with the handwave of the two action cost it felt like a decent springboard for some commentary on the tradeoffs)
I’m not saying it is stomping on other defensive paths (though I still don’t like Crane), it’s just that all of Mountains available actions (raise a shield, take cover, quake, flurry) are good, which is more than I can say for Crane’s low Damage Strike.
I do kinda feel like the -1 per die is more than you give it credit for.I’m not saying it is stomping on other defensive paths (though I still don’t like Crane), it’s just that all of Mountains available actions (raise a shield, take cover, quake, flurry) are good, which is more than I can say for Crane’s low Damage Strike.it takes 2 actions to take cover behind a tower shield, it takes 1 reaction to crane, they are not really comparable.The thing with Crane Stance is that it's the only stance that let you reach Champion AC with heavy armor and with the Crane reaction you reach Champion AC with the shield raised.
Basically a defensive stance that let you do cool jump stuff as bonus.
Mountain Stance + 2 from dex and a Tower Shield taken cover behind doesn't reach? Just curious?
Edit: Though Mountain Stance will always do more damage than a crane stylist, so I guess its a bit of a trade off.
The thing is, Monks can take those two actions much more often than other classes and still get their two attacks in.
Anyway, I'm still not sold on Crane, but if people have fun with it, who am I to argue?
prototype00
Also Crane is 1 action per fight, Tower is 2 actions per TURN. Also a massive difference. Shield sacrifices lots of attacking/moving/anything else-ing, Crane doesn't. And that matters for SO much in this edition.
Heck, tower shield prevents the Mountain Quake to Flurry combo you were so fond of, among other things.
Like, you totally can make a tower shield Monk, I'm just saying it's at enough trade-off that it's far frok stomping other defensive paths, or other paths period.
(I know the quoted post was mostly just about how high a Monk could possibly get their AC in a given moment, but with the handwave of the two action cost it felt like a decent springboard for some commentary on the tradeoffs)
And the perpetually lower damage due to being Dex focused and lacking any damage boosting weapon properties like backstabber, yes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So basically, Crane Stance is for the maneuver monk (or the caster MC monk maybe). You get good defense, mobility and don't use your crappy attack that often.
The intent of "encounter mode only" is to stop PF1 arguments/shenannigans where people were trying to walk around in a stance all day to avoid spending the action in combat. You absolutely cannot start combat in PF2 in a stance without the appropriate feat, it's a GM call whether you can use it outside combat to get noncombat benefits.
Sure you can
"The fighter and I spar as we travel, spending one action per round to walk, circling each other as we move, and one extra action every minute to take a nonlethal swing at each other." You can do this indefinitely. Probably move at half speed, but you were probably doing that anyway.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean if I'm trying to keep people from using crane stance to jump somewhere in exploration mode, I can't guarantee my PCs won't pick up a ranged weapon the lowest dex party member is not proficient in, give it to that party member and say "try to kill the monk."
So I feel like "letting someone enter a stance for a specific non-combat hazard" is probably something I'm going to have to allow but "walking around in it all day to save the action" is a no go.
I mean if I'm trying to keep people from using crane stance to jump somewhere in exploration mode, I can't guarantee my PCs won't pick up a ranged weapon the lowest dex party member is not proficient in, give it to that party member and say "try to kill the monk."
So I feel like "letting someone enter a stance for a specific non-combat hazard" is probably something I'm going to have to allow but "walking around in it all day to save the action" is a no go.
i can't think of a single instance of exploration activity that Crane stance is useful though.
non-combat encounters? sure, plenty of them.
but exploration?
what kind of sustained, time consuming, exploration you are envisioning that requires constant leaps for an extended period of time?
I could see it being useful if you're jumping around/onto a series of moving platforms/floating rocks/crossing river rapids and need to jump to different stable outcroppings.
Although I'd probably just run that as an encounter.
No you can't. Its explicitly called out as encounter mode only. Sparing with your party member while you explore is still exploration mode, and thus not encounter mode, and thus no stance.The intent of "encounter mode only" is to stop PF1 arguments/shenannigans where people were trying to walk around in a stance all day to avoid spending the action in combat. You absolutely cannot start combat in PF2 in a stance without the appropriate feat, it's a GM call whether you can use it outside combat to get noncombat benefits.Sure you can
"The fighter and I spar as we travel, spending one action per round to walk, circling each other as we move, and one extra action every minute to take a nonlethal swing at each other." You can do this indefinitely. Probably move at half speed, but you were probably doing that anyway.
You'd just be in encounter mode the entire time you're exploring. As long as you're not taking more than one action per round on most rounds, you can do this indefinitely without becoming fatigued.
if you're in exploration mode you are not in encounter mode, by default. Even if your exploration mode is "light sparring while we walk".
Except you're not in exploration mode. You're in Encounter Mode, because you're engaged in combat.
Even if a DM allowed it, keep in mind that non-lethal damage is just regular damage until a target hits 0 hp.So say you travel for 10 minutes, each person has attacked each other 10 times. Monk has to use Crane Wing in the stance, so assuming even only half the attacks the monk makes hit, that is 5d6 + (str mod * 5) damage.
So if two of you are swinging at each other constantly, that damage is going to add up. Course you could stop and patch up the damage, but still. :P
Or you could use Disarm, which is an attack action that doesn't deal damage, or even really have much of an effect at all in most cases.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As someone who has created a strength-based dwarven monk, I decided against taking Mountain Stance because of the "touching the ground" requirement. I understand that flying will be less of a thing in 2E, but this is a restriction that makes me nervous. For example, is standing on the 2nd floor of a wooden building considered to be "touching the ground?" Under most definitions of ground, I don't think it would be.
Thanks for this mini-guide though. It provides much food for thought.
I'm certain "touching the ground" means a flat surface wherein you are able to brace yourself and "ground" yourself. I don't think "ground" in the RAW literally means the ground with dirt.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm certain "touching the ground" means a flat surface wherein you are able to brace yourself and "ground" yourself. I don't think "ground" in the RAW literally means the ground with dirt.
Curses! The evil fiend has carpeted his entire lair! I'm helpless!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm certain "touching the ground" means a flat surface wherein you are able to brace yourself and "ground" yourself. I don't think "ground" in the RAW literally means the ground with dirt.Curses! The evil fiend has carpeted his entire lair! I'm helpless!
Oh no! A polished hardwood floor! My one weakness!
More seriously, what happens if you are somehow knocked off of the ground?
I suppose you are still 'touching the ground', even if you are knocked prone. And I think that even when grappled by giants (who would logically be able to pick you up), you are still treated as being in your square (image: action figure wresting with your hand to stop you from picking it up).
Are there enemies that can fly and pick you up?
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mountain stance has "standing on the ground" as a trigger not a requirement. Which means you can only take the action to enter mountain stance if you're standing, but if you stop standing on the ground (e.g. you fall in the water, you start climbing/flying) you don't lose the stance.
If it were a requirement you would lose the stance as soon as you stop fulfilling said requirement, like if you put on armor while in wolf stance for some reason.
So winners:
Str Monks:
- Dragon Style: Excellent Damage and a good debilitation effect.
- Mountain Style: Excellent Tanking and a good debilitation effect.
- Ironblood Style: Top Tier Tanking and prime contender to Fuse with either Dragon or Mountain Style.
Dex Monks:
- Tiger Style: Some interesting tricks, and the potential to cause some heinous damage on a crit. Shame about the no-shields though.
- Tangled Forest Style: Excellent Lockdown and might be a good contender to fuse with Mountain Style or Ironblood Style to keep enemies around you while your party massacres them.
Really cool breakdown, can the damage from Tiger stance be comparable to a barbarians or a fighters? I mock built a mountain stance monk and he was quite good, wondering if the Tiger stance Monk has potential to put up some serious deeps.