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They are more expensive by dint of that fact, they offer more AC (Damage avoidance) or do more damage on a hit (+1/2 Str to damage) than their cheaper counterparts.
They're meant to be non-magical upgrade equipment after you've done one or two cool things before you end up spending money on enchantments and other high fantasy stuff. Besides that, I have nothing nice to say other than to simply restate that they're more expensive because they are more powerful.
It is not intended that starting characters have heavy armor or a composite longbow, nor do they need them at 1st level. Both are more powerful than the alternatives and their price point is thus higher.
I could go with weapons being just more expensive for better versions, armor is a bit worrying to me: a heavy armor build that's low on dex is starting behind in AC JUST because it's a heavy armor build... Most heavy armor builds are going to have to wear medium at start and that leave putting more dex in than you might want or being 2-3 points behind, meaning being hit and crit that much easier.
This was true in PF1 as well, for that matter.
Sure but I'm not sure why it couldn't be better in a new version especially if the armor types are meant to be competitive vs each other.
They are more expensive by dint of that fact, they offer more AC (Damage avoidance)
But they don't as you have to take dex cap into account. In fact, specing for heavy ends up with you starting out with less AC than someone with good dex and leather.
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I could go with weapons being just more expensive for better versions, armor is a bit worrying to me: a heavy armor build that's low on dex is starting behind in AC JUST because it's a heavy armor build... Most heavy armor builds are going to have to wear medium at start and that leave putting more dex in than you might want or being 2-3 points behind, meaning being hit and crit that much easier.
Eh. With Dex 12, there's Medium Armor that will get you as much AC as anyone without Heavy (+4 AC/+1 Max Dex Mod is a listed armor...Chain Mail if only 6 GP). Only at Dex 10 are you really suffering, and even then only to the extent of -1 AC.
Sure but I'm not sure why it couldn't be better in a new version especially if the armor types are meant to be competitive vs each other.
Fair enough, but it is in fact a lot better. Only Dex 10 characters are inconvenienced at all.
But they don't as you have to take dex cap into account. In fact, specing for heavy ends up with you starting out with less AC than someone with good dex and leather.
Only if you spec for Plate very specifically. All other Heavy Armor makes a Dex of 12 useful, as does some Medium Armor.
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Full plate is something I can maybe, kind of, somewhat understand, though it is still on the jankier side due to characters planning for that Dexterity modifier cap +0 roughing it out at the lowest levels.
But splint mail? Half plate? Are those really so much better than other armor choices that they should be denied at 1st level, to characters who are already gaining heavy armor proficiency from their class?
They are +1 AC over all other armor, and in a system where every +1 matters. They are flatly superior. Being flatly more expensive is entirely reasonable.
Are composite bows somehow overpowered at 1st level, but fine at later levels? Is 1d6+1 damage from a composite shortbow supposed to be notably impressive over a crossbow ranger's Precision shots?
Well, over the course of a round, at 1st level, the DPR of a crossbow is 7.2 vs. AC 17 while the DPR of an archer with a longbow is 7.425 if they were using Composite, that would rise to 9.075.
So, yes, that's a huge DPR boost. At 2nd level a crossbow user can get Hunter's Aim to help out the comparison...but not at 1st.
Only at Dex 10 are you really suffering, and even then only to the extent of -1 AC.
That's exactly what I'm looking at: If you're going for heavy, it seems odd to shoot for a higher dex that you'll eventually be unable to use.
Eh. With Dex 12, there's Medium Armor that will get you as much AC as anyone without Heavy (+4 AC/+1 Max Dex Mod is a listed armor...Chain Mail if only 6 GP).
I'm figuring in the whole medium spread as we don't have a character to back anything up to know what other costs the character has: 15 gp can go in no time and things get worse the cheaper you go in medium.
The only pro I can see to heavy would be harder to damage/destroy but sundering doesn't seem like a focus of this edition.
Only at Dex 10 are you really suffering, and even then only to the extent of -1 AC.That's exactly what I'm looking at: If you're going for heavy, it seems odd to shoot for a higher dex that you'll eventually be unable to use.
Start with chain, go to splint. Same dex cap, +1 AC for the transition.
While the armor table is rather weird to my mind (effectively there are only 6 armors, and there isn't any real point in buying the more expensive version of the same AC/dex cap, and no point in wearing an armor you don't have the strength for), there is a major advantage to it:
Unlike the playtest you aren't obliged to max dex for most characters (monks aside). Sepllcasters have a hard time without tossing a general feat at it, but most characters can kick off the game at AC 17 or 18 without any trouble.
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I do not see why a champion should be told, "Sorry, but unlike other class builds in this game, you are not allowed to make full use of your class features at 1st level."
Patience, Grasshopper.
You can't have everything, all at once.Why is it so inconceivable that your character will have to go slumming it with a breastplate or chainmail for a few adventures before graduating to his target equipment? Isn't part of the game, part of roleplaying, giving your character concrete goals that he wants to achieve inside the game world?
If anything, full plate armor is listed at an unrealistically low price in the PF2 CRB. One could argue that it has been listed at an artificially low price for the express reason of making it more accessible to characters.
When I used to run games in previous editions, I would just say to players "Pick a basic weapon, basic armor, and some adventuring gear," and it never really lead to anything out of hand.
That said, I no longer do things that way, mostly because now my players feel more accomplished when they get their hands on their desired gear (and attaching a story to acquiring it). I think if the OP is really that upset about this, it isn't a hard change to make as a GM. It's really not even THAT much a hard sell to your GM if you're a player who really wants to have full-plate at level 1.
it seems odd to shoot for a higher dex that you'll eventually be unable to use.If Dex only applied to your AC, sure...
But it ups various skills and Reflex as well. And yes, Bulwark makes that Ref boost redundant against damage spells, but there are other Ref-targeting effects as well.
I'm looking at it in a vacuum: if I'm looking at armor and dex, I have no need for dex FOR AC. I might want dex for something else, but that's not really part of what I'm talking about: my default heavy armor build wouldn't have a need for dex but that's not saying that I might not make a specific heavy armor build sometime that might want some but I'd have to REALLY NEED that dex.
Yeah, but what is the point of looking at it that way if it doesn't actually exist in a vacuum?
That kinda sums up the problem. The game isnt in a vacuum, so looking at things in a vacuum doesn't always work. (Honestly IMO it -often- doesn't, but that's a different discussion)I'm looking at it in a vacuum:it seems odd to shoot for a higher dex that you'll eventually be unable to use.If Dex only applied to your AC, sure...
But it ups various skills and Reflex as well. And yes, Bulwark makes that Ref boost redundant against damage spells, but there are other Ref-targeting effects as well.
I think I explained myself quite well: the vacuum works 100% fine for me, UNLESS I have a specific build in mind that needs it. Otherwise, I don't. Otherwise we have to bring EVERY other aspect into play like would I want that dex or wis for saves? Int or cha for skills? You either narrow the focus or it's fairly meaningless unless we're looking at a specific build.
Or to put it another way, If I was making a heavy armor character, I'm not looking for various skills and Reflex as a default. [this is out of the vacuum]. It takes a special build for me to care about them that is non-standard for a heavy armor character.
Secondly, if you're going to ignore the part were I explain what I meant, you're really debating dishonestly.
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This issue mysteriously vanishes just one or two levels higher.
There's nothing mysterious about characters with more money being able to afford things that characters with less money can't.
I'm wondering how many people, for whom dex is not their primary stat, are going to put on studded leather with less than 16 dex and 12 strength.
Most classes don't optimize their armor class at level 1, I figure.
Patience, Grasshopper.
You can't have everything, all at once.
Why is it so inconceivable that your character will have to go slumming it with a breastplate or chainmail for a few adventures before graduating to his target equipment? Isn't part of the game, part of roleplaying, giving your character concrete goals that he wants to achieve inside the game world?If this applied to all class builds? Sure.
But this does not, in fact, apply to all class builds. Some class builds (e.g. champions) have to deal with a starting funds problem, while others (e.g. rogues, crossbow rangers) do not.
not all starts or ends must be equal, merely fun, and I think finding or buying some new set of armor you couldn't afford before, can be fun.
Patience, Grasshopper.
You can't have everything, all at once.
Why is it so inconceivable that your character will have to go slumming it with a breastplate or chainmail for a few adventures before graduating to his target equipment? Isn't part of the game, part of roleplaying, giving your character concrete goals that he wants to achieve inside the game world?If this applied to all class builds? Sure.
But this does not, in fact, apply to all class builds. Some class builds (e.g. champions) have to deal with a starting funds problem, while others (e.g. rogues, crossbow rangers) do not.
Is it only now that some folks are realizing that all options in the game do not have the same value? Some options are objectively "better" than others, others worse (from certain points of view).
One could argue that all first-level PCs have a "starting funds problem" since there are so many cool beans in the CRB that they can't have.
This hypothetical champion will simply have to be patient to fully realize his "class build".
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I am miffed about the argument that certain fighting styles have to automatically be better than others and even when they are in some cases, that is still not good enough. Heavy armor is already the best category of AC boosting armor, and full plate is objectively the best out.
At level one, with an investment of one ability boost to dexterity (and the obvious boosts to strength; otherwise why wear the armor), characters can get heavy armor with a +1 in AC (which protects against attacks and criticals) compared to other armor types without a shield or an equal AC to characters in other armors categories without the dexterity boost. These same characters can also get a shield (+2 AC) and weapon with the rest of their money, being the most competent defensively and as adequately competent offensively as other martials, but sacrificing other items to be combat specialists.
At level 2, with some experience and money on their belts, these heavy armor focused characters can get, without any investment into dexterity whatsoever, the same boost to AC as other heavy armor-wearing characters with the addition of +3 to reflex saves against damage. That’s the equivalent of three ability boosts that every other character has to invest to protect against things like fireball. This alone should put full plate at the same or even a higher cost than most low level magic items.
As for composite bows, their monetary value are reflective of opportunity cost. A bow is meant to be used at range with the purpose of avoiding engagement in damage provoking actions, such as fighting in the front line next to a troll with a cleaver. Therefore, archers don’t have to sacrifice actions moving into position or the coin needed to buy top-notch armor. With protection (most of the time) from dangers and the ability to strike from afar, it makes sense from a gaming point of view that bows aren’t as damaging without a suitable investment.
As for the argument that every other class gets everything they want, that is completely untrue. A rogue with the vision of having the right tools and skills for any situation quickly runs out of money before even getting a quarter of the way through his list. Even an elven rogue I have come up with using class and ancestry description has trouble: someone who wants to keep those close to him living as long as possible, someone who takes random fancies to completion, and someone who is roguish and ready for many situations. For this character, I take the rogue starting set with their theives’ tools, but I lack the funds to get everything that defines my character, having to choose between a ranged weapon, a healer’s kit, artisan tools, or a disguise kit. Of course, I will have to pick those up when I have the coin available, but I would also start facing trouble with bulk because strength is not my forte, something that a heavy-armor user would not have to worry about.
tldr: This is a game of choices, and like with feats, classes, or ancestries, equipment is a choice based on roles of characters, as even the rogue cannot get everything s/he wants.
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I would say just make them cheaper at your table? This is sounding more like a molehill than a mountain. Like, some people enjoy that choice when making a character.
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My general logic here is that champions and fighters have heavy armor proficiency built into their class. It is effectively a class feature, and something that deserves immediate benefit, right from the start. Champions and fighters can wear splint mail (13 gp) and swing around a two-handed weapon (~1 to 2 gp), which can work out fine, though it does mean no shield for a champion.
A composite bow is not necessarily stronger than a crossbow for a ranger. The price tag suggests that, for a ranger, a composite bow is a much stronger weapon at lower levels, but that does not seem to be the case.
What makes heavy armor (and full plate especially) and composite bows so negligible a benefit at later levels that they cost no more than any other items, whereas they suffer from large price tags at lower levels, before magic armor and magic weapons are available? Are they overpowered to have only at the lowest of levels, and fine before then? I am doubtful that that is the case.
Just the same, a plethora of skills is something built into the rogue, and they also do not get every single items that can get the max benefit from those skills. And a champion can get a shield, a weapon, and heavy armor for less than every item a rogue could use to make full use of his/her number of skill proficiencies.
Composite bows are stronger than crossbows for the ability to get extra damage from strength without the investment of a feat, a feat that could be spent on an animal companion or for multiple shots on a single enemy.
I don’t have the exact answers for later levels, but my guess is that it is for simplification and/or the assumption that characters will be using the same armor and weapons at later levels as they had been until then, as magic weapons and armor are the same cost as their runes.
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I would say just make them cheaper at your table? This is sounding more like a molehill than a mountain. Like, some people enjoy that choice when making a character.
I'd add a crude plate variant that is to heavy armor what hide/scale is to medium armor. Going from +2 AC/+3 DEX cap (light) to +3 AC/+2 DEX cap (medium) resulted in armor that was roughly the same cost. That is Hide/Scale cost about the same as Studded/Chain Shirt. A Crude Plate with +5 AC/+0 DEX cap (heavy) should, using a similar progression, cost 5-7 gp, -3 check, -10 ft., 18 Strength, 3 Bulk, Plate.
That way you don't mess with relative effectiveness of builds.