Class Proficiency Comparison


Advice


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Comparison of basic proficiencies between the classes

I found this pretty informative to put together. Let me know if you spot any mistakes.

P.S. here is the list of resources I've put together so far for Pathfinder Second Edition


Nice comparison, I especially like the proficiency comparison between classes.


That's a neat visualization. I like the simple level breakdown on the second sheet a lot. It gives a great one-page overview of how proficiencies progress.

The ABC stat calculator is also great!


Very cool resource!
Hmm, it's got me rethinking my ranger/monk as a fighter/monk...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Excellent job here.

Proficiencies for Unarmed Strike sure look weird.

If MC adds proficiencies, it might add even more value to include them in your table :-D


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:

Excellent job here.

Proficiencies for Unarmed Strike sure look weird.

If MC adds proficiencies, it might add even more value to include them in your table :-D

Yeah, Unarmed Strike is in a very strange place right now. For example:

1) No way to raise UAS if your class doesn't hand it to you

2) Alchemist only gets Trained, though mutagens seemed designed to encourage unarmed alchemist melee

3) Champions of gods that favor UAS still only get Trained (this highlights a separate issue with Champions not advancing proficiency of favored weapon)

4) Fighters start Expert and leap to Legendary at lvl19 with nothing in between, and can't use Weapon Mastery for UAS

Mark suggested that some of this was due to some details falling through the cracks as different sections of the book were handed off between different staffers. So I'm eager to see what kind of errata/clarification we get for it.

My preferred would be if UAS worked like unarmored defense: your proficiency goes up along with whatever else you're getting. I'm hoping that was the intention and what we'll see

Liberty's Edge

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tqomins wrote:
2) Alchemist only gets Trained, though mutagens seemed designed to encourage unarmed alchemist melee

Mutagenists get Expert. It's one of their features.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
tqomins wrote:
2) Alchemist only gets Trained, though mutagens seemed designed to encourage unarmed alchemist melee
Mutagenists get Expert. It's one of their features.

Ah, great. I see that now. Thanks for the catch!

Quote:
Whenever your proficiency rank for simple weapons increases, your proficiency rank for unarmed attacks increases to the same rank unless it’s already better.


Might want to Include Ruffian as they get master in Medium Armor


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Reziburno25 wrote:
Might want to Include Ruffian as they get master in Medium Armor

Ah, will do. Thanks!

Silver Crusade

Wow, that is wonderful. Thank you very much

Dark Archive

What this shows is that the "Canny Acumen" feat is fairly pointless. All classes get minimally expert in Perception/Reflex/Fortitude/Will saves. That means the feat is really only useful at L17+ to get one of those to Master proficiency, which means it gets taken at L15 for no mechanical benefit for 2 levels or L19 (only mechanical benefit for 2 levels). Otherwise you have to waste a bunch of downtime retraining it from an early feat pick.

It should be revised to increase proficiency by one step in one of those categories and have the proficiency bump up when the class naturally bumps it up.


Red Griffyn wrote:
What this shows is that the "Canny Acumen" feat is fairly pointless. All classes get minimally expert in Perception/Reflex/Fortitude/Will saves. That means the feat is really only useful at L17+ to get one of those to Master proficiency, which means it gets taken at L15 for no mechanical benefit for 2 levels or L19 (only mechanical benefit for 2 levels).

From what I see Wizard/Champion/Sorcerer get expert Perception at lvl 11 and Cleric get expert Reflex at 11 so Canny Acumen (Perception) should be rather useful.


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Great, thanks for putting this together.

It kind of makes me wish Paizo had used 3.x/1E style Save/BAB tables instead of just listing Proficiencies as text inline with other abilities, which doesn't really stand out or convey over-all progression structure. Using colors like you did for TEML is way to make it even easier, as well as saving space since you would need a much tinier space to simply show color changes... So even variants like Cleric Doctrine could directly display their progression in Core math and how that differs from their alternatives over 1-20 span.

Now that I think of it, columns showing a simple checkbox for Class Feat, General Feat, Ancestry Feat, Skill Feat/Increase would use less space than spelling them all out, and that would free the named abilities column to clearly display just the non-formulaic abilities, while graphically showing the distribution formula for generic elements.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Unarmed Attack proficiencies not improving are likely an oversight,

Rogue has this:

CRB, pg. 182 wrote:

Weapon Specialization 7th

You've learned how to inflict greater injuries with the weapons you know best. You deal 2 additional damage with weapons and unarmed attacks in which you are an expert. This damage increases to 3 damage if you're a master, and 4 damage if you're legendary.

If the proficiency never increases, there is no reason to list an increase in damage with unarmed attacks based on increased proficiency.


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I mean, the weapon specialization for the bard specifies what to do if you have legendary proficiency, while the Bard can't even get master.
I'm guessing exhaustive language here is just for future proofing.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, the weapon specialization for the bard specifies what to do if you have legendary proficiency, while the Bard can't even get master.

I'm guessing exhaustive language here is just for future proofing.

Yeah it is straight up future proofing; some on the class feats mention unskippable class features as prereqs as well; presumably so that class archetypes that remove those features work properly.


Seems like bard gets spell caster proficiency and access to more weapons.


Awesome Thanks!
It does make give a nice perspective on the classes for sure.

It does, however, make it stick out at me that it feels like Alchemists should get higher Class DC thing it felt like. Since they have an ability to turn DCs for alchemical items to their Class DC and some things like perpetual and their daily allotment are sort of similiar (but not the same) as casting stuff. Feels like they ought to have a higher DC going on for their debuff. But I bet that would throw a kink in other things somewhere.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The Raven Black wrote:

Excellent job here.

Proficiencies for Unarmed Strike sure look weird.

If MC adds proficiencies, it might add even more value to include them in your table :-D

From what I have read, I assume there are no Class Feats granting or improving Proficiencies. They are all granted by Class Features.

Proficiencies gained through MC are thus easy to list :

Each MC grants trained in the relevant class DC.

Alchemist MC grants trained in alchemical bombs and Crafting.

Barbarian MC grants trained in Athletics.
At 12, you can increase your proficiency rank in Fortitude saves to master.

Bard MC grants trained in Occultism, Performance, spell attack rolls and spell DCs for occult spells.
At 12, you can increase your proficiency rank in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for occult spells to expert.
At 18, you can increase your proficiency rank in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for occult spells to master.

Champion MC grants trained in Religion and your deity’s associated skill, in light, medium, and heavy armor.
At 14, you can increase your proficiency rank in light armor, medium armor,
heavy armor, and unarmored defense to expert.

Cleric MC grants trained in Religion and your deity’s associated skill, in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for divine spells..
At 12, you can increase your proficiency rank in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for divine spells to expert.
At 18, you can increase your proficiency rank in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for divine spells to master.

Druid MC grants trained in Nature and your order’s associated skill, in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for primal spells..
At 12, you can increase your proficiency rank in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for primal spells to expert.
At 18, you can increase your proficiency rank in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for primal spells to master.

Fighter MC grants trained in your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics, in simple weapons and martial weapons.
At 12, you can increase your proficiency rank in simple weapons and martial weapons to expert, and your proficiency rank for advanced weapons to trained.

Monk MC grants trained in your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics and in unarmed attacks.
At 12, you can increase your proficiency rank in one saving throw (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will) in which you are an expert to master.

Ranger MC grants trained in Survival.
At 12, you can increase your proficiency rank in Perception to master.

Rogue MC grants trained in in Stealth or Thievery plus one skill of your choice and in light armor.
At 8, you can increase your proficiency rank in one of your skills from expert to master and in another of your skills from trained to expert..
At 12, you can increase your proficiency rank in Reflex saves to master.

Sorcerer MC grants trained in your bloodline’s two skills, in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for your tradition’s spells.
At 12, you can increase your proficiency rank in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for your tradition’s spells to expert.
At 18, you can increase your proficiency rank in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for your tradition’s spells to master.

Wizard MC grants trained in Arcana, in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for arcane spells.
At 12, you can increase your proficiency rank in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for arcane spells to expert.
At 18, you can increase your proficiency rank in spell attack rolls and spell DCs for arcane spells to master.


Kinjar wrote:
Red Griffyn wrote:
What this shows is that the "Canny Acumen" feat is fairly pointless. All classes get minimally expert in Perception/Reflex/Fortitude/Will saves. That means the feat is really only useful at L17+ to get one of those to Master proficiency, which means it gets taken at L15 for no mechanical benefit for 2 levels or L19 (only mechanical benefit for 2 levels).
From what I see Wizard/Champion/Sorcerer get expert Perception at lvl 11 and Cleric get expert Reflex at 11 so Canny Acumen (Perception) should be rather useful.

I was thinking to take it for fortitude on a sorcerer, and retrain it at 5 to perception. Eventually I would retrain it again back to fortitude for the master proficiency around 17 if the game lasts that long.

Dark Archive

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Abraham spalding wrote:
Kinjar wrote:
Red Griffyn wrote:
What this shows is that the "Canny Acumen" feat is fairly pointless. All classes get minimally expert in Perception/Reflex/Fortitude/Will saves. That means the feat is really only useful at L17+ to get one of those to Master proficiency, which means it gets taken at L15 for no mechanical benefit for 2 levels or L19 (only mechanical benefit for 2 levels).
From what I see Wizard/Champion/Sorcerer get expert Perception at lvl 11 and Cleric get expert Reflex at 11 so Canny Acumen (Perception) should be rather useful.
I was thinking to take it for fortitude on a sorcerer, and retrain it at 5 to perception. Eventually I would retrain it again back to fortitude for the master proficiency around 17 if the game lasts that long.

It all depends on the opportunity cost. Are you wasting 2-3 retrains during downtime that might otherwise earn your GP, retrain something more critical, craft item X, etc.? Its probably less of a concern with a home campaign. However, for something like PFS, where timeframes will be standardized, shuffling a feat around like that could be bothersome. I'm just not sure what the overall opportunity cost is at this point as things are too new. The fact is that most of the classes get expert in all of those things within the first 3, 5, 7, or 9 levels and so the feat is only useful for a small fraction of PCs for a small amount of time. Its a very strange outcome for a feat that previously was intended to allow PCs to shore up their weaknesses so they don't get 'wrecked' by save related mechanics. Not sustaining the feats mechanical proficiency bump just because the class feature finally catches up just make the feat something that is either a dead feat or taking further resources away from the PC down the line.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

I was just starting to fool around with something like this, but now I don't have to! This is nice.


Red Griffyn wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Kinjar wrote:
Red Griffyn wrote:
What this shows is that the "Canny Acumen" feat is fairly pointless. All classes get minimally expert in Perception/Reflex/Fortitude/Will saves. That means the feat is really only useful at L17+ to get one of those to Master proficiency, which means it gets taken at L15 for no mechanical benefit for 2 levels or L19 (only mechanical benefit for 2 levels).
From what I see Wizard/Champion/Sorcerer get expert Perception at lvl 11 and Cleric get expert Reflex at 11 so Canny Acumen (Perception) should be rather useful.
I was thinking to take it for fortitude on a sorcerer, and retrain it at 5 to perception. Eventually I would retrain it again back to fortitude for the master proficiency around 17 if the game lasts that long.
It all depends on the opportunity cost. Are you wasting 2-3 retrains during downtime that might otherwise earn your GP, retrain something more critical, craft item X, etc.? Its probably less of a concern with a home campaign. However, for something like PFS, where timeframes will be standardized, shuffling a feat around like that could be bothersome. I'm just not sure what the overall opportunity cost is at this point as things are too new. The fact is that most of the classes get expert in all of those things within the first 3, 5, 7, or 9 levels and so the feat is only useful for a small fraction of PCs for a small amount of time. Its a very strange outcome for a feat that previously was intended to allow PCs to shore up their weaknesses so they don't get 'wrecked' by save related mechanics. Not sustaining the feats mechanical proficiency bump just because the class feature finally catches up just make the feat something that is either a dead feat or taking further resources away from the PC down the line.

Yeah my other thought was to represent his 'unnatural toughness' with the fast healing feat and toughness and then wait until much higher level and take it if I felt I needed to.

Anything I play will likely be homebrew so the timeline would be squishy. I do dislike that it's basically a trap for anyone to take and is so wasted for most levels.


tqomins wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:

Excellent job here.

Proficiencies for Unarmed Strike sure look weird.

If MC adds proficiencies, it might add even more value to include them in your table :-D

Yeah, Unarmed Strike is in a very strange place right now. For example:

1) No way to raise UAS if your class doesn't hand it to you

2) Alchemist only gets Trained, though mutagens seemed designed to encourage unarmed alchemist melee

3) Champions of gods that favor UAS still only get Trained (this highlights a separate issue with Champions not advancing proficiency of favored weapon)

4) Fighters start Expert and leap to Legendary at lvl19 with nothing in between, and can't use Weapon Mastery for UAS

Mark suggested that some of this was due to some details falling through the cracks as different sections of the book were handed off between different staffers. So I'm eager to see what kind of errata/clarification we get for it.

My preferred would be if UAS worked like unarmored defense: your proficiency goes up along with whatever else you're getting. I'm hoping that was the intention and what we'll see

I'm pretty sure unarmed combat works the same for fighters as any other weapon group. unarmed belongs to the brawling group.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
ikarinokami wrote:
tqomins wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Proficiencies for Unarmed Strike sure look weird.
... Fighters start Expert and leap to Legendary at lvl19 with nothing in between, and can't use Weapon Mastery for UAS ...
I'm pretty sure unarmed combat works the same for fighters as any other weapon group. unarmed belongs to the brawling group.

I do think that's what was intended, and how I'd choose to run it as a GM. But the rules as written don't actually do that. Because (1) the Fighter's proficiency increases go to "weapons" in a weapon group, but (2) unarmed strikes are not weapons (even though they belong to weapon groups). So as a result, Fighter starts at level 1 as Expert in unarmed strikes, and has no way to increase that until level 19, when Versatile Legend swoops in and bumps that to Legendary.

Unarmed Trait:

Unarmed Trait wrote:
An unarmed attack isn’t a weapon, though it’s categorized with weapons for weapon groups, and it might have weapon traits.

Fighter:

Fighter Weapon Mastery (5th Level) wrote:
Choose one weapon group. Your proficiency rank increases to master with the simple and martial weapons in that group ...
Fighter Weapon Legend (13th Level) wrote:
Your proficiency ranks for simple and martial weapons increase to master. Your proficiency rank for advanced weapons increases to expert. You can select one weapon group and increase your proficiency ranks to legendary for all simple and martial weapons in that weapon group, and to master for all advanced weapons in that weapon group.
Fighter Versatile Legend (19th Level) wrote:
You are nigh-unmatched with any weapon. Your proficiency ranks for simple weapons, martial weapons, and unarmed attacks increase to legendary, and your proficiency rank for advanced weapons increases to master.


Awesome. This was what I was missing. An easy breakdown to compare proficiency. :)

While making my character for the Sunday game, I had to keep jumping between tabs and try and keep track of things.


Some Kind of Chymist wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I mean, the weapon specialization for the bard specifies what to do if you have legendary proficiency, while the Bard can't even get master.

I'm guessing exhaustive language here is just for future proofing.
Yeah it is straight up future proofing; some on the class feats mention unskippable class features as prereqs as well; presumably so that class archetypes that remove those features work properly.

Listin the class feature as a pre-req is also there b/c of MC. I'm an MC Monk, but I might not get all the class features, so that specific feat isn't available to take as MC feat. It also avoids the whole "you can take the second feat in the chain for free, but if you don't have the first it doesn't actually work" problem that would creep up in P1.


tqomins wrote:
ikarinokami wrote:
tqomins wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Proficiencies for Unarmed Strike sure look weird.
... Fighters start Expert and leap to Legendary at lvl19 with nothing in between, and can't use Weapon Mastery for UAS ...
I'm pretty sure unarmed combat works the same for fighters as any other weapon group. unarmed belongs to the brawling group.

I do think that's what was intended, and how I'd choose to run it as a GM. But the rules as written don't actually do that. Because (1) the Fighter's proficiency increases go to "weapons" in a weapon group, but (2) unarmed strikes are not weapons (even though they belong to weapon groups). So as a result, Fighter starts at level 1 as Expert in unarmed strikes, and has no way to increase that until level 19, when Versatile Legend swoops in and bumps that to Legendary.

Unarmed Trait:

Unarmed Trait wrote:
An unarmed attack isn’t a weapon, though it’s categorized with weapons for weapon groups, and it might have weapon traits.

Fighter:

Fighter Weapon Mastery (5th Level) wrote:
Choose one weapon group. Your proficiency rank increases to master with the simple and martial weapons in that group ...
Fighter Weapon Legend (13th Level) wrote:
Your proficiency ranks for simple and martial weapons increase to master. Your proficiency rank for advanced weapons increases to expert. You can select one weapon group and increase your proficiency ranks to legendary for all simple and martial weapons in that weapon group, and to master for all advanced weapons in that weapon group.
Fighter Versatile Legend (19th Level) wrote:
You are nigh-unmatched with any weapon. Your proficiency ranks for simple weapons, martial weapons, and unarmed attacks increase to legendary, and your
...

RAW you're certain about the unarmed proficiences, but I'm guessing that, RAI (IMO), they should increase.

Also: GREAT POST! THANKS!

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