I don't think Sharding does anything to change the arguments. Throwing shield is all over the place, with large chunks of it not making much sense. You linked to throwing shields as shields, but look at their weapon entries. https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Throwing%20shi eld
In theory, you could make a throwing buckler and it still does 1d6 damage when thrown. It basically throws out most of the things we know about shields, so the idea that it changes a heavy or light shield to purely a ranged weapon is not out of the question.
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Thrown is a garbage combat style and no weapon property is going to suddenly break the game just because its on a melee weapon with a thrown range.
I don't allow keen to work on melee weapons used at range, I don't allow ranged properties to function on ranged weapons when used in melee, etc.Do you allow the Improved Crit feat to work on melee weapons used at range?
The underlying mechanics of Improved Critical are different.
Improved Critical was never restricted to ranged or melee. It works equally for all weapons, regardless of how the weapons are used or classified.
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I don't allow keen to work on melee weapons used at range, I don't allow ranged properties to function on ranged weapons when used in melee, etc.Do you allow the Improved Crit feat to work on melee weapons used at range?The underlying mechanics of Improved Critical are different.
Improved Critical was never restricted to ranged or melee. It works equally for all weapons, regardless of how the weapons are used or classified.
I think the point was that an expanded threat range is an expanded threat range. And the two don’t stack. So the enchantment doesn’t let you do something you couldn’t achieve with different means.
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I think the point was that an expanded threat range is an expanded threat range. And the two don’t stack. So the enchantment doesn’t let you do something you couldn’t achieve with different means.I don't allow keen to work on melee weapons used at range, I don't allow ranged properties to function on ranged weapons when used in melee, etc.Do you allow the Improved Crit feat to work on melee weapons used at range?The underlying mechanics of Improved Critical are different.
Improved Critical was never restricted to ranged or melee. It works equally for all weapons, regardless of how the weapons are used or classified.
Not at all. This is not about expanded threat ranges. This is about underlying mechanics and unintended interactions.
The underlying mechanics of Keen and Improved Critical are completely different, even if the end result is mostly the same.
Improved Critical is a self-contained feat with no real crossover on how it interacts with other feats.
Allowing melee only properties to work at range, or range only properties to work in melee, has far more potential for unintended interactions and far more edge cases.
A clean interpretation that is easy to apply consistently and that eliminates both the unintended interactions and edge cases is much healthier for a game.
The same interpretation carries over, for example, to a keen cestus or keen claw blades. Keen does not function on blunt weapons, and will not function when either is used as a Blunt damage.
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I’m not defining it by the tables alone.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.Being a melee weapon or a ranged weapon is fairly binary. A weapon has to specify otherwise to count as both. The dagger is not one of these exceptions.
"Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile projectile weapons" is not the same as "thrown weapons and projectile weapons are ranged weapons".
Seriously.
"Dogs are mammals" is not the same as "mammals are dogs".
The line in the CRB defines what a "ranged weapon" is. They are all either thrown or projectile. If you look at the table, you will find that is true.
But then there's the dagger. Which is a melee weapon. Yes, it can be thrown and not count as an improvised weapon when doing so but it's not a "ranged weapon" despite that caveat, because it's not on the ranged weapon table. It is a thrown weapon which is not a ranged weapon. Why? Really, because it's designed as a melee weapon which happens to be decent enough when thrown to not incur an improvisation penalty, but isn't inherently designed to be ranged, primarily.
That's how the language parses, even if it's not what the D&D 3.0 team intended.
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Here's some more rules text that could be read in interesting ways:
Weapons come in two basic categories: melee and ranged. Some of the weapons listed as melee weapons can also be used as ranged weapons. In this case, their enhancement bonuses apply to both melee and ranged attacks.So, do non-enhancment bonuses not apply to both? Or were the special abilities included with "enhancement bonuses".
This does imply an all or nothing ruling though. Either the dagger keeps keen when thrown or it also loses things like flaming since that's not an enhancement bonus either.
Pedantic time. "Used as" and "is/are" aren't the same thing. A +5 greatsword counts as all the metals for purposes of bypassing DR, but it isn't made of silver or cold iron or adamantine. It "isn't", but "counts as".
A dagger "is" a melee weapon what "can be used as" a ranged weapon. As in, it can be used in the same ways as a ranged weapon, with the rules regarding how to do so applying. But the dagger doesn't cease being what it is: a melee weapon. Potentially a keen melee weapon.
The rules for ranged weapons don't say to remove any enchantments that aren't permitted for ranged weapons. A hypothetical dagger qualified for its enchantment at the time it was crafted and no rule says that the magic ability is disabled. The stipulation on keen regards what weapons qualify for the enchantment to be placed on them, not for what weapons can have those enchantments.
Again, yeah, pedantic.
In the case of the transformative enchantment, it actually spells out specifically that changing a weapon to become a weapon that has prohibited enchantments disables them. But that's verbiage on that specific ability, not a general rule. It's telling you how to run a transformative weapon. And it shows that Paizo knows to include rules telling when to apply a change to the general rules (for instance "melee weapons are the weapons on the melee weapons table".)
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Not at all. This is not about expanded threat ranges. This is about underlying mechanics and unintended interactions.
The lack of wording preventing a +1 keen dagger from threatening on a rolled 18 does not imply that said threatening is unintended.
Untangling my tortured sentence, I would suggest that the fact the rules indicate a dagger qualifies for keen and don't indicate that enchantment is disabled when thrown means the developers fifteen years ago intended it to work.
Unless there's a developer FAQ or errata in the massive time period since 3.0 was designed, there's either a} indication of intent or b} no lurking game-breaking unintended interaction to fear. Either way, RAW is fine.
Not at all. This is not about expanded threat ranges. This is about underlying mechanics and unintended interactions.The lack of wording preventing a +1 keen dagger from threatening on a rolled 18 does not imply that said threatening is unintended.
Untangling my tortured sentence, I would suggest that the fact the rules indicate a dagger qualifies for keen and don't indicate that enchantment is disabled when thrown means the developers fifteen years ago intended it to work.
Unless there's a developer FAQ or errata in the massive time period since 3.0 was designed, there's either a} indication of intent or b} no lurking game-breaking unintended interaction to fear. Either way, RAW is fine.
RAI in this case is just an attempt at justification, without evidence, based on personal feelings.
The keen property requires melee and P or S damage.
You either rule weapon properties care only about the option to use the weapon in the required manner, without restriction on actual usage, or you rule the properties are dependent on how the weapon is used and only apply when weapon usage meets the property requirements.
Both are valid interpretations, but you need to be consistent in that interpretation and aware of how that decision interacts with the rest of the game.
You either rule weapon properties care only about the option to use the weapon in the required manner, without restriction on actual usage, or you rule the properties are dependent on how the weapon is used and only apply when weapon usage meets the property requirements.
Both are valid interpretations, but you need to be consistent in that interpretation and aware of how that decision interacts with the rest of the game.
The rules seem to suggest that it matters more what the weapon is intended to be used for. A dagger is a melee weapon that can do some ranged weapon things. So, for magic purposes it’s a melee weapon and not a ranged weapon. A javelin is a ranged weapon that can do some melee weapon things. So, for magic purposes, it is a ranged weapon and not a melee weapon.
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The keen property requires melee and P or S damage.
One word changed.
"Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen."
The keen property requires melee and P or S weapons. Which daggers are. There is no text indicating that a melee weapon which is thrown changes its type.
You either rule weapon properties care only about the option to use the weapon in the required manner, without restriction on actual usage, or you rule the properties are dependent on how the weapon is used and only apply when weapon usage meets the property requirements.
The property says what the requirement is. "How it is used" is not such a requirement.
Both are valid interpretations, but you need to be consistent in that interpretation and aware of how that decision interacts with the rest of the game.
I'd offer that both are valid options to run at the table. But I don't agree that both are what is written. And yes, I'm prepared to continue to rule as I do given that there's been zero cases documented where it's a problem, that I have seen presented.
The keen property requires melee and P or S damage.One word changed.
"Only piercing or slashing melee weapons can be keen."
The keen property requires melee and P or S weapons. Which daggers are. There is no text indicating that a melee weapon which is thrown changes its type.
You either rule weapon properties care only about the option to use the weapon in the required manner, without restriction on actual usage, or you rule the properties are dependent on how the weapon is used and only apply when weapon usage meets the property requirements.The property says what the requirement is. "How it is used" is not such a requirement.
Both are valid interpretations, but you need to be consistent in that interpretation and aware of how that decision interacts with the rest of the game.I'd offer that both are valid options to run at the table. But I don't agree that both are what is written. And yes, I'm prepared to continue to rule as I do given that there's been zero cases documented where it's a problem, that I have seen presented.
The how it is used requirement forces a lot of recalculations of combat statistics the minute someone takes weapon versatility.
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The how it is used requirement forces a lot of recalculations of combat statistics the minute someone takes weapon versatility.
Maybe I missed something. Weapon Versatility the combat feat? Which changes the damage type dealt by a weapon on-the-fly?
If so, I don't see how that's involved. The enchantment doesn't apply to damage types. It applies to weapons. So even if a +1 keen dagger is used to deal bludgeoning damage, it's still going to crit on 17-20/x2.
Where's the recalculation? I assume I'm misunderstanding.
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The how it is used requirement forces a lot of recalculations of combat statistics the minute someone takes weapon versatility.Maybe I missed something. Weapon Versatility the combat feat? Which changes the damage type dealt by a weapon on-the-fly?
If so, I don't see how that's involved. The enchantment doesn't apply to damage types. It applies to weapons. So even if a +1 keen dagger is used to deal bludgeoning damage, it's still going to crit on 17-20/x2.
Where's the recalculation? I assume I'm misunderstanding.
I know, i agree with you, im referring to the flaw in the "how its used" argument.
If you believe that a weapon's type is dependent on the type of damage it does (and there are good rules based arguments for this line of thinking) then as soon as you used weapon versatility to do blunt damage the weapon becomes a blunt weapon and therefore is ineligible for the keen enchantment.
Personally I don't ascribe to this line of reasoning, but there are many people who do. Just look up threads on swashbucklers and weapons that are both piercing and slashing weapons if you are interested in that arguement.
The keen property requires melee and P or S damage.
The bolded part of your sentence is a departure from RAW, as others have mentioned here, and it is not how the game works. There are countless examples in Paizo modules, adventure paths, and NPC statblocks available at the tip of your fingers just one Google search away.
Daggers are in the light melee weapon category, not the ranged weapon category, so you can't put properties that can only be applied to ranged weapons to them.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.So, that second bolded sentence is vague but you could take it to mean that weapons that are effective in melee are not “ranged weapons”.
But this also supports that a thrown melee weapon is still a melee weapon.
Reference from the PRD has:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons.
Seems pretty clear that a dagger is considered a thrown weapon. Thus it qualifies for designating. This also clears up the ambigious sentance claim by Melkiador.
It seems pretty clear that if a weapon has a listed range increment it is considered a ranged weapon.
Some of you need to practice more thorough reading (not intended to be rude, we all skim at times). You answered my first scenario of designating on a thrown dagger, you failed to even acknowledge the second example. I will quote it again here for you to consider an disect, with extra emphasis.
Or give my two handed weapon of choice the throwing enchantment, then apply lesser designating and gain all the benefits? So while making such as weapon would require a total of +3 worth of enchantments and only provide me with a net +2 attack/damage, so not as good for me personally as just adding +3 enhancement bonus to my weapon, it does wonders for a party with multiple melee classes, or for my full TWF build since I don't have to stack as many bonuses on my off hand weapon.
I wouldn't have a problem with it. The throwing property turns it into a ranged weapon and that should be good enough to plop on the second property. Of course, without the returning property, you're throwing perfectly serviceable (and expensive) melee weapon at your target only to have to go pick it up again and for just a 1 round morale bonus. I'd seriously consider putting it on something smaller and cheaper and already throwable to save the extra +1 of magic bonus equivalence.
Though, I suppose whipping a dagger at the enemy doesn't have quite the same "Boo-Yah!" cachet to it as throwing a whole two-handed sword.
Some of you need to practice more thorough reading (not intended to be rude, we all skim at times). You answered my first scenario of designating on a thrown dagger, you failed to even acknowledge the second example. I will quote it again here for you to consider an disect, with extra emphasis.
Or give my two handed weapon of choice the throwing enchantment, then apply lesser designating and gain all the benefits? So while making such as weapon would require a total of +3 worth of enchantments and only provide me with a net +2 attack/damage, so not as good for me personally as just adding +3 enhancement bonus to my weapon, it does wonders for a party with multiple melee classes, or for my full TWF build since I don't have to stack as many bonuses on my off hand weapon.
I wouldn't have a problem with it. The throwing property turns it into a ranged weapon and that should be good enough to plop on the second property. Of course, without the returning property, you're throwing perfectly serviceable (and expensive) melee weapon at your target only to have to go pick it up again and for just a 1 round morale bonus. I'd seriously consider putting it on something smaller and cheaper and already throwable to save the extra +1 of magic bonus equivalence.
Though, I suppose whipping a dagger at the enemy doesn't have quite the same "Boo-Yah!" cachet to it as throwing a whole two-handed sword.
Well you quoted a post I deleted, but that is fine, I took to long thinking over it after my initial post before I deleted it.
But under the ruling that a thrown dagger with keen gets the keen benefit, then for consistency in rules you don't need to throw your sword, it just needs the ranged enchantment on it to make it qualify for the designating enchantment, then at that point you get the benefits of designating while using it as a melee weapon.
Daggers are in the light melee weapon category, not the ranged weapon category, so you can't put properties that can only be applied to ranged weapons to them.Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.So, that second bolded sentence is vague but you could take it to mean that weapons that are effective in melee are not “ranged weapons”.
But this also supports that a thrown melee weapon is still a melee weapon.
Reference from the PRD has:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons.
Seems pretty clear that a dagger is considered a thrown weapon. Thus it qualifies for designating. This also clears up the ambigious sentance claim by Melkiador.
It seems pretty clear that if a weapon has a listed range increment it is considered a ranged weapon.
Melee weapon’s can be thrown. But, we already knew some melee weapons could be thrown. That doesn’t mean the dagger is a “ranged weapon” though, especially for enchanting purposes.
It’s like saying you can put agile on a long sword because you can use finesse with it if you take slashing grace. But the weapon doesn’t care about how it could be used, but about what it is. And the dagger is a melee weapon. So no designating.
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It’s like saying you can put agile on a long sword because you can use finesse with it if you take slashing grace. But the weapon doesn’t care about how it could be used, but about what it is. And the dagger is a melee weapon. So no designating.
A position I have long held.
There is no weapon property for finesse. There is a baseline feat, followed by an entire series of feats and abilities, and more recent weapons that modify the baseline.
Weapon Finesse is a property of the weapon wielder, not the weapon.
The Agile property states:
Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
What Agile does not state is that it is usable only on weapons with the finesse property, because the property does not exist. No melee weapon uses DEX-to-hit by default.
A long sword is usable with Weapon Finesse. Just not by every character.
Agile would only function if the character using the weapon can use it with Weapon Finesse. Just as Keen only functions in melee and Designating only functions when making a ranged attack.
By that logic you can make a keen club, but the keen property would only function when using it to do piercing or slashing damage via some ability such as weapon versatility.
Fundementally most people fall into one of two groups, properties are inherent to the weapons themselves group, or properties are all about use. Both have good examples of why in particular cases their group's viewpoint is right. However the rules are written in a conversational tone and don't directly address this issue in a consistent manner.
So, check with your GM, or pick a style that isn't controversial if you are doing PFS.
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Melee weapon’s can be thrown. But, we already knew some melee weapons could be thrown. That doesn’t mean the dagger is a “ranged weapon” though, especially for enchanting purposes.It’s like saying you can put agile on a long sword because you can use finesse with it if you take slashing grace. But the weapon doesn’t care about how it could be used, but about what it is. And the dagger is a melee weapon. So no designating.
A dagger is both a melee weapon and a thrown weapon.
We know it's melee because it is listed under simple melee weapons on the table.We know its ranged because
1) It is a thrown weapon as shown earlier. (it does not appear on both the ranged and melee weapon tables for convservation of space and all that).
2) The rules tell us
Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon’s use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon’s usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).
There isn't anything stating it can only be one. Just like a weapon can be both P or S, depending on how it is used, and it would qualify for enchantments that can only be applied to a P or an S.
The rule doesn't state that only thrown weapons that cannot be used as melee weapons count as ranged weapons. They make a blanket "thrown weapons are ranged weapons" claim.
By that logic you can make a keen club, but the keen property would only function when using it to do piercing or slashing damage via some ability such as weapon versatility.
Fundementally most people fall into one of two groups, properties are inherent to the weapons themselves group, or properties are all about use. Both have good examples of why in particular cases their group's viewpoint is right. However the rules are written in a conversational tone and don't directly address this issue in a consistent manner.
So, check with your GM, or pick a style that isn't controversial if you are doing PFS.
Finesse is not a weapon quality. It is derived solely from feats and abilities. Things possessed by the weapon user, not the weapon.
As for your example with the club: it is no different than putting keen on Claw Blades (B or S) and then using them to deal Blunt damage.
By my interpretation, keen does not work when used to deliver Blunt damage, regardless of the weapon. By your interpretation, you can deal keen Blunt damage with Claw Blades, because the weapon has the property and the property always works.
In argument against the club: damage types are a defined weapon classification.
Agile would only function if the character using the weapon can use it with Weapon Finesse. Just as Keen only functions in melee and Designating only functions when making a ranged attack.
The wizard putting an enchantment on a sword can only put the enchantments designed for that sword. The idea that weapon enchantments are mutable or adaptable based on their future users is not only illogical, but ridiculous at best. Unless your entire campaign happens in some kind of wacky cartoony dimension...
To recap: light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain. Those are the weapons that can be finessed and slapped with the agile property. Other than that check individual weapon's description for finessability for those that came after the Core rulebook.
PS: don't bother checking your character's feats or abilities or other magic items that may make that greataxe finessable --> those don't matter to that good old wizard sword enchanter.
Agile would only function if the character using the weapon can use it with Weapon Finesse. Just as Keen only functions in melee and Designating only functions when making a ranged attack.The wizard putting an enchantment on a sword can only put the enchantments designed for that sword.
No weapon has the finesse quality, because it does not exist.
Even weapons that specifically state they work with Weapon Finesse modify the Weapon Finesse feat, they don't have a separate weapon quality.
Since we allow that the Weapon Finesse feat can have weapons other than the original set added to it (as with anything else in the game) why would you think other feats and abilities cannot also add to Weapon Finesse?
The Agile property requirement is "usable with Weapon Finesse." At the time (Core Rules) that was a limited subset of weapons. The game has grown since then. There are now abilities that render all melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse, which meets the requirements of the Agile property.
Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
Emphasis mine.
OP here... Very encouraged by all the input on this concept! One of the specific abilities I was concerned with is the fortuitous ability... the Busker bard archetype gains the ability to make ranged attack of opportunities with thrown weapons... if I have a +1 fortuitous dagger, do I gain the use of that ability with my ranged thrown weapon attack of opportunity from the busker class ability?
Yes.
A dagger is both a melee weapon and a thrown weapon.
We know it's melee because it is listed under simple melee weapons on the table.
We know its ranged because
1) It is a thrown weapon as shown earlier. (it does not appear on both the ranged and melee weapon tables for convservation of space and all that).
2) The rules tell us
Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon’s use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon’s usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).
The part you are getting confused on is that both melee and ranged weapons can be thrown. Your bolded part isn't saying that all thrown weapons are ranged, just that there are thrown ranged weapons, like the javelin.
But having the thrown property doesn't change the weapon's type from melee to ranged.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
It feels like you are completely missing the text I provided here earlier. The dagger is effective in melee and is thus not a ranged weapon.
The part you are getting confused on is that both melee and ranged weapons can be thrown. Your bolded part isn't saying that all thrown weapons are ranged, just that there are thrown ranged weapons, like the javelin.But having the thrown property doesn't change the weapon's type from melee to ranged.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.It feels like you are completely missing the text I provided here earlier. The dagger is effective in melee and is thus not a ranged weapon.
When something looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, its a duck, unless we have something explicitly telling us otherwise.
Since all thrown weapons use ranged combat rules except for the single called out exception of adding str to damage, then they are ranged weapons.
The point is that "Ranged Weapon" is a game term that has a specific meaning in Pathfinder. You are talking about how melee weapons with the thrown property can be used to make a "ranged attack", which is not quite the same as a "ranged weapon".
Do you think acid splash is a ranged weapon? It's pretty ducky.
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I suppose then it would require the person doing the enchantment to have the necessary feats to make it usable with Weapon Finesse or such person to aid in the creation of the magic item, which isn't an unreasonable requirement. Because the weapon isn't, unless you are such a person.Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.Emphasis mine.
Most casters don't have Weapon Finesse and cannot use the Agile property on any weapon.
Fortunately, there is no requirement for any weapon property to be usable by the person creating the weapon.
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I suppose then it would require the person doing the enchantment to have the necessary feats to make it usable with Weapon Finesse or such person to aid in the creation of the magic item, which isn't an unreasonable requirement. Because the weapon isn't, unless you are such a person.Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.Emphasis mine.Most casters don't have Weapon Finesse and cannot use the Agile property on any weapon.
Fortunately, there is no requirement for any weapon property to be usable by the person creating the weapon.
True, but Agile can only be put on weapons that can be used with Weapon Finesse. If the person making the weapon doesn't have slashing grace or whatever, the weapon they are enchanting can't be used with weapon finesse and is thus ineligible for the enchantment.
I was thinking of the scenario of creating an agile longsword or something, not just making a regular agile weapon.
The weapon can be used with weapon finesse, just not by that character.
Just as a medium sized caster cannot use weapon finesse with a small or large weapon, even if they have the Weapon Finesse feat.
Alternately, any one-handed weapon that has an effortless lace applied may be used by anyone with weapon finesse (assuming appropriate size).
If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.
Emphasis mine.
The Effortless Lace has several ways it can be destroyed, none of them which remove the Agile property, which would remain on the weapon.
All you accomplish by arguing the person enchanting the weapon must be able to use it with Weapon Finesse is restrict casters to enchanting weapons of their own size category. No more gnomes enchanting human weapons, no more humans enchanting halfling weapons, etc.
A clean interpretation that is easy to apply consistently and that eliminates both the unintended interactions and edge cases is much healthier for a game.
You can argue that your position is right, but I'm not sure having someone's weapon properties arbitrarily turn on and off is necessarily clean, easy or consistent.
A clean interpretation that is easy to apply consistently and that eliminates both the unintended interactions and edge cases is much healthier for a game.You can argue that your position is right, but I'm not sure having someone's weapon properties arbitrarily turn on and off is necessarily clean, easy or consistent.
There is nothing arbitrary.
Melee properties only work in melee, ranged properties only work when making ranged attacks.
Properties that require specific damage types only work when the required damage type is dealt.
Properties that require the user to meet a specific condition only work when the condition is met.
It is very straight forward, very easy to predict, and does not have corner cases, or at least none that I can recall.
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A clean interpretation that is easy to apply consistently and that eliminates both the unintended interactions and edge cases is much healthier for a game.You can argue that your position is right, but I'm not sure having someone's weapon properties arbitrarily turn on and off is necessarily clean, easy or consistent.
It isn't, its just jerkin off linguistically and deliberate misinterpretation of the text.
It isn't, its just jerkin off linguistically and deliberate misinterpretation of the text.A clean interpretation that is easy to apply consistently and that eliminates both the unintended interactions and edge cases is much healthier for a game.You can argue that your position is right, but I'm not sure having someone's weapon properties arbitrarily turn on and off is necessarily clean, easy or consistent.
It is reading the text and looking at the underlying mechanics, rather than trying to come up with some convoluted series of interpretations.
What people are trying to push without understanding the underlying mechanics requires a long series of inconsistent interpretations that follow no easily defined logic except that they feel it is the "right" way to play the game.
Without being consistent on the underlying mechanics, the entire thing is just a house of cards. It becomes simple to find loopholes and exceptions that don't fit.
When the rules are interpreted in a manner that provides consistent underlying mechanics, none of that happens. Every edge case has a simple answer; the one that is consistent with the underlying mechanics. If something provides a specific exception, that is fine. The exception is specific and defined.
It is [...]
...not acceptable in PFS play if you happen to go to GenCon this weekend.
Just a quick question for the agile weapon discussion. If the enchanter decides what abilities can be placed on a weapon doesn't that mean size huge or larger people can enchant any medium 2 handed weapon with agile as it counts as a light 1 handed weapon for them?
It isn't, its just jerkin off linguistically and deliberate misinterpretation of the text.A clean interpretation that is easy to apply consistently and that eliminates both the unintended interactions and edge cases is much healthier for a game.You can argue that your position is right, but I'm not sure having someone's weapon properties arbitrarily turn on and off is necessarily clean, easy or consistent.It is reading the text and looking at the underlying mechanics, rather than trying to come up with some convoluted series of interpretations.
What people are trying to push without understanding the underlying mechanics requires a long series of inconsistent interpretations that follow no easily defined logic except that they feel it is the "right" way to play the game.
Without being consistent on the underlying mechanics, the entire thing is just a house of cards. It becomes simple to find loopholes and exceptions that don't fit.
When the rules are interpreted in a manner that provides consistent underlying mechanics, none of that happens. Every edge case has a simple answer; the one that is consistent with the underlying mechanics. If something provides a specific exception, that is fine. The exception is specific and defined.
Except daggers are in the melee weapon section of the book, not the ranged weapon section. Its convenient how they divide that up in the supplements and books.
If P or S + melee then keen=ok
That is the sum total of whether you can use keen on an item. It does not matter if it can be used as a ranged weapon, because literally nothing stops a weapon from being both melee and ranged. Being used as a ranged weapon doesn't suddenly turn off enchantments that are only allowed to be placed on melee weapons.
The same applies to agile,
If light and/or weapons rules text says can be used with finesse then agile = ok.
All qualifications are from a Medium character standard, as you can literally see that they conveniently set out Light, one handed, and two handed, in how the book organizes the weapon table. Weapons classed light, or specifically finesseable, can be enchanted agile. Odd Size categories make no difference as it is a function of the wielder, feats make no difference as it is a function of the wielder and not a property of the weapon. A dagger for a huge creature could be enchanted agile, a greatsword for a tiny one could not.
Just a quick question for the agile weapon discussion. If the enchanter decides what abilities can be placed on a weapon doesn't that mean size huge or larger people can enchant any medium 2 handed weapon with agile as it counts as a light 1 handed weapon for them?Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Fair point I hadn't actually looked at the rules and was attempting to be glib. :D
As to the main question I think I would stick with a weapon counts as the category the weapon is in on the tables which probably could lead to some excessively strong combos but that is why there is a gm running to game to deal with the problems that sometimes occur with a set rule system made by many hands.
The point is that "Ranged Weapon" is a game term that has a specific meaning in Pathfinder. You are talking about how melee weapons with the thrown property can be used to make a "ranged attack", which is not quite the same as a "ranged weapon".
Do you think acid splash is a ranged weapon? It's pretty ducky.
No, we are talking about thrown weapons (some of which also classify as melee weapons). There is no restriction that a weapon cannot be both ranged and melee.
An additional question for you. Do you believe the following feats can or cannot be used with a thrown dagger?
Snapshot, PBS, Rapid Shot, Clustered Shot, Deflect Arrows, Ranged Feint/Trip/Disarm, and so forth for combat feats that affect ranged weapons.
Note that the feats I listed all refer specifically to ranged weapons. There are others that specifically refer to ranged attacks (which I assume we are in agreement on that a dagger works with them).
Acid splash is a spell, and is therefore, by definition, not classified as a weapon at all. (Though some spells are explicitly classified as weapon or weapon like - flameblade for example, specific overriding general).
It is [...]...not acceptable in PFS play if you happen to go to GenCon this weekend.
Nobody has shown me anything that disproves my interpretation,
But if I were running at Gencon and you tried to get a ranged property to work in melee or a melee property to work at range the onus of being forced to defend that interpretation with RAW, not feelings, would be on you.
An additional question for you. Do you believe the following feats can or cannot be used with a thrown dagger?
Snapshot, PBS, Rapid Shot, Clustered Shot, Deflect Arrows, Ranged Feint/Trip/Disarm, and so forth for combat feats that affect ranged weapons.
I have no issue with any of those working with any weapon that is thrown.