Except daggers are in the melee weapon section of the book, not the ranged weapon section. Its convenient how they divide that up in the supplements and books
None of this is about daggers, it is about underlying mechanics.
I could name a dozen edge cases were weapons are on the melee weapon tables yet count as improvised weapons in melee (and thus inefficient in melee, as defined for melee weapons, but not mirrored by ranged weapon definitions), by being listed on the ranged weapon tables while having explicit usage in melee, or by being listed on both melee and ranged tables.
Except daggers are in the melee weapon section of the book, not the ranged weapon section. Its convenient how they divide that up in the supplements and booksNone of this is about daggers, it is about underlying mechanics.
I could name a dozen edge cases were weapons are on the melee weapon tables yet count as improvised weapons in melee (and thus inefficient in melee, as defined for melee weapons, but not mirrored by ranged weapon definitions), by being listed on the ranged weapon tables while having explicit usage in melee, or by being listed on both melee and ranged tables.
First off..name them and source the books.
Second off, every weapon is placed in either melee, or ranged sections on the tables. If they're in the melee section, they can be enchanted as melee weapons, regardless if they can be used as thrown weapons or not. If they're in the ranged section, they are enchanted as ranged weapons...regardless if special rules allow them to be used in melee or not.
But if I were running at Gencon and you tried to get a ranged property to work in melee or a melee property to work at range the onus of being forced to defend that interpretation with RAW, not feelings, would be on you.
We keep going in circles. There's no such thing as a "ranged property". In the specific example that birthed this discussion, there's a "melee weapon", which dagger is, and a "property that requires a melee weapon", which a dagger still is, and a second rule that allows throwing a dagger. The RAW is clear. The enchantment is valid. The action is valid. Denying a +1 keen dagger from being what it is is a house rule.
Interpret as you will and dislike as much as you wish and fear unintended consequences if you wish, but what's written with ink on paper is clear.
Unless of course we invoke the "DMs can override anything we wrote" rule which immediately moots any discussion of any rule ever.
And here i was expecting to return to dozens of examples from printed material of melee weapons listed under the melee section but counting as improvised in melee and ranged weapons that appear on melee and ranged tables.
I'll help you out.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
There's the core rulebook separation out of the gate.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table 6–4), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or onehanded weapon is a standard action, while throwing a twohanded weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
And theres the core rulebook discussion of thrown. Being able to be thrown does not convert a melee weapon to a ranged weapon Ranged weapons that can be used in melee at a penalty are not automatically melee weapons, as the penalty represents them not being effective in melee.
In core, Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, throwing axes, light hammers, and tridents are melee weapons. They can be enchanted with melee enchantments + the returning enchantment that outright specifies it may be placed on thrown weapons.
Darts, nets, javelins, and shuriken are ranged weapons because they either cannot be used in melee, or are ineffective as represented by a penalty (javelins) They can be enchanted with ranged weapon abilities. Halfling sling staves could be confusing because they have a special rule saying they can be used as a simple weapon that does damage as a club. This does not change that they are in the Ranged weapon category, and the use as a club is a special rule for the weapon itself.
This is easy to extrapolate for every other weapon put forth.
Be careful trying to apply blanket rulings like this. As has been pointed out ruling that thrown weapons are not ever "ranged weapons" can be problematic in the context of many feats that specify the use of "ranged weapons."
The rules were not written to make an absolute ruling either way. They are coversational. GMs have to make judgment calls as to what the best intent is in each case. Will that be furstrating sometimes? Yes. But that is the reality of the situation. The developers are not going to go through and clarify the many many edge cases most of which can be pretty easily ruled one way or the other.
For PFS GM's, just let the player have it the way they want unless their interpretation is very obviously against the intent, or specifically clarified. It's not worth stopping the game to fight about it, or punishing a player for having a different, but just as understandable interpretation of the ambiguous rules.
I didn't say "thrown weapons are not ever ranged weapons" Javelins are thrown weapons that are also ranged weapons. Throwing axes are thrown weapons that are melee weapons, instead of rapid shot with a throwing axe you use two weapon fighting.
You don't get point blank shot with melee thrown weapons, it specifies ranged weapon
You do get precise shot, it specifies shoot or throw into melee.
You don't get rapid shot, it specifies ranged weapon.
Ranged disarm: No
Ranged feint: no
Ranged trip: no
Clustered shots: no
Its simply a matter of reading the rules and not pretending they're trying to fool you. Thrown is a bad combat style.
Many people would disagree with this interpretation and there are good reasons for it. It is ambiguous at best.
Many people would disagree with this interpretation and there are good reasons for it. It is ambiguous at best.
except its not, people just don't read the rules, and when they do they try to infer hidden meanings. You don't get clearer than putting ranged weapons in a section labeled ranged weapons and melee weapons in a section labeled melee weapons.
Many people would disagree with this interpretation and there are good reasons for it. It is ambiguous at best.except its not, people just don't read the rules, and when they do they try to infer hidden meanings. You don't get clearer than putting ranged weapons in a section labeled ranged weapons and melee weapons in a section labeled melee weapons.
This is a bit ironic when you claim precise shot works with a dagger (under the assumption daggers are not ranged weapons).
You can shoot or throw ranged weapons...
It's not a matter of us not reading the rules. We read them. Then we also apply context. We understand that a weapon can be classified as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. We understand that they don't need to list them under both tables because that would be duplication of information and take up unneeded print space.
Many people would disagree with this interpretation and there are good reasons for it. It is ambiguous at best.except its not, people just don't read the rules, and when they do they try to infer hidden meanings. You don't get clearer than putting ranged weapons in a section labeled ranged weapons and melee weapons in a section labeled melee weapons.This is a bit ironic when you claim precise shot works with a dagger (under the assumption daggers are not ranged weapons).
You can shoot or throw ranged weapons...
It's not a matter of us not reading the rules. We read them. Then we also apply context. We understand that a weapon can be classified as both a melee weapon and a ranged weapon. We understand that they don't need to list them under both tables because that would be duplication of information and take up unneeded print space.
Eh, you're right, i was looking at an old phrasing of the feat where it said you may make ranged attacks, looked at a newer version and thats what it says. Nope, you cant use melee weapons with a ranged increment with precise shot.
and no, you're inferring intent, you aren't applying context. There's nothing wrong with playing that way, but weapons aren't classified as ranged AND melee unless they actually put them there or actually write a rule stating so.
But the rules are written in a format that requires that the reader will "assume the intent" when it is generally obvious. The rules aren't computer code or math equations. The developers expect interpretation.
You don't have to assume intent though, they make a complete distinction right there.
Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
A dagger or handaxe is effective in melee, therefore cannot be a ranged weapon even if they are also thrown.
Here, I'll give you a specific example of one place were the developers strongly imply that you are wrong. Look at the thrown weapon ranger fighting style. It included both two weapon fighting and precise shot, which by your interpretation cannot be used with the same weapons.
That doesn't imply anything. Chakram can use precise shot, throwing axe can use two weapon fighting. By the very nature of thrown weapons you are going to need to offer some melee and some ranged weapon abilities because thrown has some melee and some ranged weapon.
So going down this rabbit hole.
1. A thrown non-ranged weapon(TNRW) does full damage to an object now.
2. Ricochet toss would work with any thrown weapon but requires weapon training in a ranged weapon.
3. Can't throw during shot on the run with a TNRW.
4. Eldritch eyes can't enhance TNRW but can still spellstrike with them.
5. Deflect arrows and the like won't stop TNRW attacks.
Also a question what constitutes a Ranged Thrown Weapon in this case? Does it mean a thrown weapon from the ranged category only?
For use of ranged weapons in melee i only see one issue Blade Snare would cause you not to be able to let go of ranged weapons used this way.
But also does this mean that a dagger can't have returning on it now since its a ranged property?
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single ranged attack at any point during your movement.
Shot on the run is fine
Ricochet toss: Thin splats are iffy on wording vs author intent, as written yes.
Eldritch eyes are third party and therefore rules interactions can be iffy.
As written deflect arrows wont stop thrown non ranged weapon attacks.
Look yall are acting like i think this is fine, its not, thrown weapons are a mess by the way the rules are written, they're a mess in the amount of energy you have to put in to make them a focus of your character. As written. This whole thread began because people couldn't wrap their head around the idea of daggers qualifying as melee weapons simply because they have a range for when thrown, and the argument that keen vanishes if you throw the weapon because somewhere inbetween your hand and getting tossed it ceases to qualify as a melee weapon.
I think it's pretty clear: daggers are melee weapons as defined in the core book. The keen enchantment can be placed on a dagger and works just fine.
If there's some other enchantment out there that breaks the game because of this ruling, change it.
Thrown weapons need some serious love, anyway.
Also since ranged weapons don't threaten this would now mean you can't threaten with things like Javelins correct?
Also since ranged weapons don't threaten...
No. Weapons don't threaten squares, period. Combatants do.
A medium character has a reach of 5ft. Some weapons change this value. A ranged weapon cannot be used to make an attack of opportunity, but that doesn't mean you can't make one at all. You just can't make it with your ranged weapon. But can you kick a dude in the gut with your hobnail boot as he tries to drink a potion? Or stab him with your javelin? Or the arrow you have in hand? Why not?
Well the rules clearly state
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
So a Javelin under this interpretation can't be used to to make an AoO
...While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
So a Javelin under this interpretation can't be used to to make an AoO
Where is that passage from? I can't seem to find it in the combat section.
If that is true, then I suppose no, a javelin cannot by RAW make an attack of opportunity.
...which is ridiculous.
Regardless, this is getting off-topic. Melee and ranged weapons are clearly defined. The requirements for the Keen enchantment is clear. A keen dagger has a threat range of 17-20, full stop.
Where is that passage from?
Snap Shot (Combat)
With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any opening in your opponent’s defenses.Prerequisite: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
Of course, the intent may have been to say that you can't normally make ranged attacks of opportunity with ranged-only weapons. Feats in Ultimate Combat are an odd way to define the basic rules of the game...
Where is that passage from?Of course, the intent may have been to say that you can't normally make ranged attacks of opportunity with ranged-only weapons. Feats in Ultimate Combat are an odd way to define the basic rules of the game...Snap Shot (Combat)
With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any opening in your opponent’s defenses.Prerequisite: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
I agree I was just doing my best to show all of the strange inconsistencies that come from stating that when the rules say melee weapon or ranged weapon they only main things that fall under that category in the weapons chart.
I agree I was just doing my best to show all of the strange inconsistencies that come from stating that when the rules say melee weapon or ranged weapon they only main things that fall under that category in the weapons chart.
Of course, the intent may have been to say that you can't normally make ranged attacks of opportunity with ranged-only weapons. Feats in Ultimate Combat are an odd way to define the basic rules of the game...Snap Shot (Combat)
With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any opening in your opponent’s defenses.Prerequisite: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
Text contained within Ultimate Combat does not trump the original core rulebook, so I feel like it's an iffy example at best.
But as far as "strange inconsistencies" go, if I had to pick between (1) a dagger losing it's magical enchantment when thrown or (2) being unable to stab someone with a javelin as an attack of opportunity, I'd pick #2 all day every day. I mean, they're both pretty situational and inconsequential, but the latter definitely more so than the prior.Of course, I don't have to pick. I'd just say neither are the case and move on with my game.
Actually you wouldn't be picking there the way it's being interpreted those would be both on one side of the argument.
and no, you're inferring intent, you aren't applying context. There's nothing wrong with playing that way, but weapons aren't classified as ranged AND melee unless they actually put them there or actually write a rule stating so.
I'm not applying context when I treat a thrown weapon as a ranged weapon? If you were to go ask any person who isn't a versed rules lawyer what kind of attack I'm making when throwing something at someone (and the options are ranged or melee) and whether the weapon used to make such an attack is a thrown or melee weapon, I'd bet 99 out of 100 you'd get ranged attack with a ranged weapon. The context is a thrown weapon - which by very definition of it being thrown is a ranged attack and thus a ranged weapon. Yes the ranged attack means ranged weapon is an inference, but it is a very strong inference.
Actually you wouldn't be picking there the way it's being interpreted those would be both on one side of the argument.
Eh, not really, since the javelin has special rules that allow you to treat it as a melee weapon.
Since it is not designed for melee, you are treated as nonproficient with it and take a –4 penalty on attack rolls if you use a javelin as a melee weapon.
And as such it acts as a melee weapon for all rules that interact with melee weapons, including threating and AoO's.
Text contained within Ultimate Combat does not trump the original core rulebook, so I feel like it's an iffy example at best.
As UC is one of the core rule books it actually does. Later books trump earlier books on rules. Just like later printings of the same book trump earlier printings. And FAQ's trump them all (in so far as they keep FAQs updated with info from the lastest printings).
That said, I wouldn't take the text of a single feat as strongly compelling. It is more like circumstantial evidence.
Do those who back the "dagger is only a melee weapon" believe this rule does not apply to thrown daggers?
If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.
I would think that under their reading then no it doesn't it's not a ranged weapon according to them.
First off..name them and source the books.
A few examples off the top of my head. There are others, but you'll have to find them yourself.
Combat Scabbard, Sharpened: an improvised melee weapon. It is specifically named on the melee weapon list, but does not meet the following condition
Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
If you allow that improvised weapons are effective in melee, all weapons are melee weapons. Bows, crossbows, etc. can all be used as improvised melee weapons by any character without any special rules or feats. If you rule it is not effective in melee (due to improvised and related penalties, it can be thrown without any additional penalties, and ranged weapons are not defined as being effective.
Shield, Throwing: it is a mod that applies to already existing shields. The resulting weapon appears on both the melee and ranged weapon tables.
Chakram, Common: a ranged weapon with explicit rules for melee usage. There is a -1 penalty, compared to the -4 of a combat scabbard.
Second off, every weapon is placed in either melee, or ranged sections on the tables. If they're in the melee section, they can be enchanted as melee weapons, regardless if they can be used as thrown weapons or not. If they're in the ranged section, they are enchanted as ranged weapons...regardless if special rules allow them to be used in melee or not.
Except for the weapons that appear on both, or that appear on the table for one, but are explicitly usable as the other. Or weapons that don't fall within the definitions of either category.
All this leaves aside characters, feats and weapon properties that change how a weapon is used.
The best guidance on this comes from the Greater Transformative weapon property:
However, abilities prohibited by its current shape do not function. For example, a keen greater transformative weapon functions normally in the form of a piercing or slashing weapon, but cannot use the keen special ability when in the shape of a bludgeoning weapon. A double weapon that loses the double quality cannot use the abilities on one of its ends (wielder’s choice), whereas a non-double weapon that gains the double quality applies all its abilities to only one end. When unattended for 1 day, the weapon reverts to its true shape
While the rules for Greater Transformative are only explicitly spells out for weapons with this property they are, in essence, how I have always interpreted the rules for weapon properties. They are simply being restated in a more explicit manner for a weapon that freely changes classification.
Ranged weapons that can be used in melee at a penalty are not automatically melee weapons, as the penalty represents them not being effective in melee.
There are weapons on the melee table that cannot be used in melee without a penalty and anything can be thrown. Does that make them ranged weapons?
There are ranged weapons that do not take penalties in melee. Does that mean they cannot use ranged weapon properties, but instead use melee properties at range?
Throwing Shields use entries on both melee and ranged weapon tables. Can you enchant them with both melee and ranged properties and have both sets of properties function in both ranged and melee?
Penalty, or lack thereof, is not a factor for determining is something is a ranged weapon. Only the fact that is it thrown and not effective in melee.
Text contained within Ultimate Combat does not trump the original core rulebook, so I feel like it's an iffy example at best.
Most recent trumps older.
The game has changed, and many core rules have been updated, or completely replaced, by more recent books.
Ultimate Intrigue and Unchained are the two biggest examples, but others abound.