CHA to Hit with a Slashing Weapon


Advice


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I don't think this is possible, but here I go anyway.

Is there a way to get CHA to Hit for an Oracle with a Slashing Weapon? I want to use Vorpal on an Oracle.

Desna Divine Fighting Style, unfortunately, does not work because Starknives are Piercing Weapons


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Eh, remember vorpal only activates on a nat 20 not a normal critical threat.

It's also a +5 equivalent cost. It's honestly a pretty terrible enchant.

The only way I can imagine it being useful is if you have some limited ability to make specific attack rolls a nat 20, such as the cyclops helm that lets you choose the outcome of a dice roll. However, as a GM I would rule that it doesn't work because such an interaction would be broken as it would allow you to one shot anything that needed a head to survive.

So yeah, not worth it IMO.


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You could weapon versatility it, although raw, that just means you can make the weapon do slashing damage, it does not mean it is a slashing weapon.

And yeah, Vorpal is "eh", generally speaking.


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If vorpal were a like a +2 equivalent enhancement I would consider putting it on weapons because a 5% chance to one shot an enemy is cool.

But enhancement bonuses to hit are way more valuable than (on average) than the low chance to insta-kill.


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What is the reason you want to use the Vorpal enchantment with an Oracle? What's the connection? What is your goal?


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VoodistMonk wrote:
What is the reason you want to use the Vorpal enchantment with an Oracle? What's the connection? What is your goal?

I want to use Cyclopean Seer to choose when I crit. I don't really need to have CHA to Hit to make the build work but I thought it would help

Claxon wrote:
It's honestly a pretty terrible enchant.

But fun, and that is ultimately what we play for


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Dip a few levels in paladin for smite evil. If you dip 2 levels, you also get CHA to saves.


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I think you ron't really need the CHA-to-hit. It'd obviously help with the confirmation roll, but you should be able to get that high enough anyway.

Since it's 1/day anyway you could take a single level dip into Paladin for Smite Evil to give yourself CHA-to-hit (and +1 damage) vs 1 enemy per day. You'd have to set it up the round before because both Smite Evil and Flash of Insight are swift actions, but it'd work with any weapon. Also a second level of Paladin would get you CHA-to-saves. Maybe not worth it, but you'd still end up with 9th level spells ...?

(Or Antipaladin for Smite Good, or there are archetypes for Smite Law/Chaos.)

Regarding Vorpal, you can always just get a weapon with a ×4 modifier, that's often enough to 1-shot things anyway. Vorpal is fun but it's 72,000gp for a ~4% chance to insta-kill something.


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Minigiant wrote:
But fun, and that is ultimately what we play for

But it's not actually fun, in my opinion, because it costs so much and comes up so infrequently. Like I said, if it was a +2 equivalent I might be inclined to pick it up because it would be comical when it actually kicked in.

But as I said before, as a GM I absolutely wouldn't let you use it with Flash of Insight to select that a 20 to activate vorpal. Confirming a crit becomes pretty trivial, but the 5% chance to even have the opportunity is pretty rare. Getting to once per day decide "that creature that uses it's head is dying" is too powerful.


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Claxon wrote:
Minigiant wrote:
But fun, and that is ultimately what we play for
But it's not actually fun, in my opinion,

I will rephrase my initial statement then, 'It is fun to me', and I am the one asking for advice


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Alright, I suppose I can accept that.

However, I don't know of a way to get charisma to attack except for Desna's shooting star style which as you mentioned wont work with vorpal due to starknives being piercing.

You could ask your GM if by using weapon versatility to do slashing damage with the starknife if they will allow you to apply vorpal to it. But the rules it doesn't work, but they might choose to allow it.

Do keep in mind though, when asking for advice it doesn't mean good advice is telling you what you want to hear. Sometimes it's telling you that what you're trying to do is a bad idea and to dissuade you from it. I hold that this is a bad idea. It will cost you a minimum of 72,000 to have a weapon enchanted with vorpal (+1 vorpal). This means you can't even have such a weapon until around level 11, but you would be putting almost all your wealth into it, which is also a bad idea. You're going to wait until around level 16 to where the cost of the weapon is "only" about 25% of your wealth by level.

Why don't we talk about what the build of your character looks like up until that point first? Will your group even make it to such a high level? A lot of groups tend to end their campaigns between level 12-15.


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Claxon wrote:
Minigiant wrote:
But fun, and that is ultimately what we play for

But it's not actually fun, in my opinion, because it costs so much and comes up so infrequently. Like I said, if it was a +2 equivalent I might be inclined to pick it up because it would be comical when it actually kicked in.

But as I said before, as a GM I absolutely wouldn't let you use it with Flash of Insight to select that a 20 to activate vorpal. Confirming a crit becomes pretty trivial, but the 5% chance to even have the opportunity is pretty rare. Getting to once per day decide "that creature that uses it's head is dying" is too powerful.

This seems somewhat contradictory to me.

It's not powerful enough to be worth the +5 enhancement bonus, and you think it'd be alright at +2.

But on the other hand it's too powerful and you wouldn't allow it.

I get where you're coming from, but I think if someone DID want to invest this much into their character then they SHOULD be able to 1-shot some enemies. And while 1-shotting the big-bad is maybe a bit of a downer, there are other ways PCs can do this. There are also ways the big bad can avoid this (eg. Displacement/Mirror Image), so you still have tools to stop this derailing the whole campaign.

Is it powerful? Absolutely, but it's 1/day and extremely expensive.

Now as to whether it's fun, that's totally subjective. You don't have to agree there.


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I don't find it contradictory at all. Just because Vorpal on it's own is bad, doesn't mean that in conjunction with something else can't make it too good.

I wouldn't allow it in conjunction with Flash of Insight, because you can then choose to 1 shot kill enemy that requires a head to live.

Imagine finding a Balor (or end of campaign bad guy), and you decide to use Flash of Insight + Vorpal. That specific interaction is too strong.

The reason why Vorpal sucks is because you only have a 5% chance for it to activate on top of being so damned expensive that you can't afford it till way late, and you're going to sacrifice your ability to hit (by not having numerical enhancements).

You seem to understand exactly my complaint, but you call it a contradiction when it really isn't so.

Imagine Vorpal just said "once per day you can choose to kill anything with a head". That would be too f#+@ing good. So they gave it a low chance to occur because that was the way to balance it, along with cost.

And a GM shouldn't have to invent defenses against a once per day kill someone power just to keep the BBEG alive so it doesn't ruin the story of the campaign.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Claxon wrote:


And a GM shouldn't have to invent defenses against a once per day kill someone power just to keep the BBEG alive so it doesn't ruin the story of the campaign.

BECMI had the Collar of Stiffness for just such an emergency. :-)


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I seem to remember a certain Nymph BBEG that has exactly the sort of defenses in the place needed to survive a chance encounter with a Vorpal weapon... and that's written into an AP.

Honestly, me-thinks Vorpal is best given as loot. For one, it gives a lucky enemy NPC a 5% chance to cut off a PC's head... heck yeah, that's hilarious. Bet you murderhobos never saw THAT coming. Like throwing a JubJub Bird at the party and it bites off one of the PC's cohorts' head in the surprise round. The game has changed, and THIS particular encounter obviously demands our undivided attention or else our heads may be divided from our bodies.

Why not just use Starknives with Heart Piercing?


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VoodistMonk wrote:
Why not just use Starknives with Heart Piercing?

It is worth noting… some GMs will argue that despite being thrown weapons, starknives, daggers, and other throwable melee weapons “are not ranged weapons”… so while Heart Piercing is an amazing alternative to Vorpal for a piercing weapon, like starknives, some GMs might not allow it because “it’s technically not a ranged weapon”, which I think is stupid…


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Agreed, but I would hope that a GM would at least allow for a compromise such as “Heart Piercing when throw, not when in melee combat.” A bow with the Heart Piercing quality in the hands of a dedicated archer would be far more problematic than a Desna worshipper’s star knife.


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Chell Raighn wrote:
It is worth noting… some GMs will argue that despite being thrown weapons, starknives, daggers, and other throwable melee weapons “are not ranged weapons”…
    That is rather explicit RAW:
    "Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon’s use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon’s usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons)" (CRB pg. 140) The usage of 'either ... or' means 'melee' and 'ranged' are mutually exclusive categories.
    "Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee." (CRB pg. 141) Since a starknife is effective in melee, it is clearly on the melee side of the divide.

In general:
In Pathfinder, active abilities and stuff that triggers upon using the weapon in combat check for how it is actually used; physical properties (hardness etc.), permanently chosing a weapon (or weapon type), as well as anything that tries to modify a weapon (including weapon enchantments), goes by what the weapon is listed as in the weapon table (for the size it was crafted for).


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Since, by the above quoted RAW, Ranged weapons include thrown weapons, and the Starknife does, in fact, fall into the aforementioned "thrown weapons" group... my advice to you is to try put Heart Piercing on a Starknife... just do it like it ain't no thang, and see if your GM even notices or cares before you ask if it works. Because, honestly, the Starknife is equally ineffective at both melee and at a distance... so go for it.


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VoodistMonk wrote:


Why not just use Starknives with Heart Piercing?

Now that is an interesting concept


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VoodistMonk wrote:
Since, by the above quoted RAW, Ranged weapons include thrown weapons, and the Starknife does, in fact, fall into the aforementioned "thrown weapons" group...

The text says that "ranged weapons" includes both thrown and projectile weapons, but not that it includes all thrown weapons.

By the rules, there is no way in the game to enchant a Starknife with Heart Piercing. And secretly doing it without GM houseruling would by lying and cheating.


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Derklord wrote:
VoodistMonk wrote:
Since, by the above quoted RAW, Ranged weapons include thrown weapons, and the Starknife does, in fact, fall into the aforementioned "thrown weapons" group...

The text says that "ranged weapons" includes both thrown and projectile weapons, but not that it includes all thrown weapons.

By the rules, there is no way in the game to enchant a Starknife with Heart Piercing. And secretly doing it without GM houseruling would by lying and cheating.

I didn't mean to add it without the GM's permission... I meant bring it up like it's any other enchantment. When you have Vorpal enchantment money laying around, and you're at the magic weapon shop or the magic weapon mystery box kiosk that upgrades your guns or whatever, just be like "hey, I want to enchantment my Starknife with Heart Piercing"... do not point out that it might not be legal, and do not ask if it is ok. If the GM says yes all willy-nilly without double checking, then you win, and it's on the GM for allowing +5 weapon enchantments without seeing what, exactly, they are and how they might interact with or influence the balance of the game being played.

But, as a GM, I would allow Heart Piercing on any piercing weapon... be it melee or used at a distance. Those enchantments suck, so throwing them out on the field is the only way they might ever be fun... hey, remember that time a nameless NPC cut your head off with a Vorpal sword? Remember one-shotting that dragon with your stupid Heart Piercing Starknife? I like to allow the freak chance for an awesome story to show up.

Even on Starknives, with Desna's Shooting Star, on a 9/9 Charisma-caster, I would allow Heart Piercing to be used in both melee and at a distance... with whatever shenanigans you want to use to choose the outcome of your rolls. I don't care. Have fun. I will figure it out, as there are enemies without hearts, and I am creative AF.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Derklord wrote:
VoodistMonk wrote:
Since, by the above quoted RAW, Ranged weapons include thrown weapons, and the Starknife does, in fact, fall into the aforementioned "thrown weapons" group...

The text says that "ranged weapons" includes both thrown and projectile weapons, but not that it includes all thrown weapons.

Can you point me to the list that excludes starknives as thrown weapons? I'd like to see what other weapons in the thrown catagory aren't thrown weapons.


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Matthew Morris wrote:
Can you point me to the list that excludes starknives as thrown weapons? I'd like to see what other weapons in the thrown catagory aren't thrown weapons.

I never said starknives aren't thrown weapons, I said they aren't ranged weapons.

Thrown weapon does not equal ranged weapon!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Derklord wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Can you point me to the list that excludes starknives as thrown weapons? I'd like to see what other weapons in the thrown catagory aren't thrown weapons.

I never said starknives aren't thrown weapons, I said they aren't ranged weapons.

Thrown weapon does not equal ranged weapon!

"ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons"

All thrown weapons are ranged weapons. Not all ranged weapons are thrown weapons.

So I'll ask again, what thrown weapons are not ranged weapons. Can you cite the list?


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Matthew Morris wrote:

"ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons"

All thrown weapons are ranged weapons. Not all ranged weapons are thrown weapons.

So I'll ask again, what thrown weapons are not ranged weapons. Can you cite the list?

I'm not going to go through and list everything that can be thrown that isn't a ranged weapon, Matthew, but down at the bottom of each of these lists are a category listing "ranged weapons": (or pp. 142 and 143 of the CRB)

Simple Weapons
Martial Weapons
Exotic Weapons

Heart-Piercing needs to be put onto a ranged weapon, Starknives aren't listed under "Ranged Weapons" even though they can be thrown thereby showing that not all weapons that can be thrown are ranged weapons.

Also worth noting:

CRB p. 141 wrote:
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons... It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table 6–4)...

So any weapon can be thrown, some more effectively than others.


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Matthew Morris wrote:

"ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons"

All thrown weapons are ranged weapons.

The second sentences does not logically follow the first one. You're assuming exclusiveness where there is none.

Let's take the sentence "offroad capable cars, which includes both electric cars and gasoline powered cars, see an increase in sales". Is every single electric car included here, even a small compact car? No, because the word "includes" doesn't denote that the following subsets exclusively belong to the above set, instead its purpose is to inform that there is more than one (non-exclusive) subset. The weapon categorization is just the same.

There are five classifications for weapons:
1) size (the various creature sizes)
2) handedness (light, one-handed, two-handed)
3) proficiency (simple, martial, exotic)
4) distance (melee, ranged)
5) travel type (not designed to be thrown, thrown, projectile)
They're not all presented in a table, but each weapon in the game has every one of those classifications, and all of these are independent of each other. Note that stated handedness is always only for the intended size.
Heart-Piercing only cares about category 4, whereas starknife being classified as a "thrown weapon" only informs you of category 5.

Matthew Morris wrote:
So I'll ask again, what thrown weapons are not ranged weapons. Can you cite the list?

You didn't ask that before. And I can't cite a comprehensive list, because the game has dozens of rulebooks, but I can give you a list if you're interested.

Thrown weapons that are not ranged weapons:

Aklys
Baston Fighting Stick
Brass Knife
Chain-hammer
Club
Dagger
Dan Bong
Deer Horn Knife
Doru
Dueling Dagger
Dwarven Maulaxe
Dwarven Ram Hammer
Dwarven Sphinx Hammer
Harpoon
Iron Brush
Knobkerrie
Kunai
Kyoketsu Shoge
Light Hammer
Lungchuan Tamo
Shortspear
Sibat
Spear
Spring Blade
Starknife
Switchblade Knife
Syringe Spear
Throwing Axe
Totem Spear
Trident
Wahaika
Wooden Stake
Wushu Dart


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you are making a mistake reading the rules there.

all it say is that ranged weapon are in general less effective in melee (as one can tell by getting aoo when you try to ranged in melee or if one try to stab with an arrow).

you decide that since star knife ARE effective in melee they can not be ranged since '' Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee". but you are just using a GENERAL rule (which speak about effectiveness of using weapons for ranegd or melee not necessarily types) on a specific thing that happen to be a unique thing.
using a bow or dart in melee is ineffective they are the example of general ranged weapon. while using a greatsword as a thrown weapon is also less effective then most ranged weapon. starknife is a unique weapon useful for both melee and ranged attacks (one would still get aoo though).
it's in there in the weapon's info:

"By gripping the crossbar that runs through the weapon’s open middle, a wielder can strike with it as a deadly melee weapon. Alternatively, by gripping it by the outer rim, a starknife’s light, aerodynamic design allows it to be thrown short distances in a manner similar to a chakram."

-chakram i think you'd agree IS a ranged weapon? not designed for melee( you need to take care not to hurt yourself if you do use it in melee after all)

a weapon CAN be of more then one type. there is no rule that it has to be only one ranged or melee. you read the part talking about usefulness of the weapon as if it talk about the only way the weapon can be used.

btw the wushu dart have a dual use as well:

"This sharpened wooden spike can be used as a punching weapon, but it is also perfectly balanced for throwing." which part here claim it is only melee or only ranged?!?

even if that WAS talking about the way to separate melee and ranged weapon id say " general vs specific". generally melee weapons are ineffective in ranged combat, and ranged are ineffective in melee. some are specifically good for both.(read their info to find out more)


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I had a whole thing typed out about starknives not being listed under "Ranged Weapons" and Chakram are and that was why one is a ranged weapon and the other isn't but then I reread a different rule and I take that argument back...

CRB p. 184 wrote:
Shooting or Throwing into a Melee: If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

If I throw a dagger without having Precise Shot I'm taking -4 even though it's not listed under the "Ranged Weapon" category.

That indicated that when you throw a weapon (even if it's a bastard sword and I can only hit on a 20) it is a ranged weapon for that attack, therefore you can put Heart Piercing on any weapon you want but, I would argue, Heart Piercing only works when you throw the weapon.


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no no, when you throw a weapon with no range indication then it's considered an improvised weapon and doesn't proc any of it's normal magical abilities. (there is an example of throwing a sword as improvised weapons in the improvised weapon section if i recall).

but any weapon with a range indication be it 5, 10 30 or more IS designed to be used in ranged combat and is by the rules posted above a ranged weapon (oh and don't bring then why isn't it in the ranged weapon table, they didn't want to double post every weapon that can be used in both. the ranged weapon table is for weapons that do not normally have a melee option).
what actually determine if it's ranged or what not is the weapon group it's listed at (which is why a chakram can be considered both heavy and light blade and thrown weapon)

also if starknives are thrown but not ranged weapons. then how come some starknives (look up the unique weapons there are more then a few) have the ranged weapon ability of returning? going by "thrown =\= ranged" it should only be used on thrown ranged weapon that are not melee (such as javelins and darts).
unless...gasp! any weapon from the thrown weapon group is a "ranged weapon" no matter if it is also usable in melee or not..


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zza ni -- With having reread "Shooting or Throwing into a Melee" rules I'm saying I agree with you and that starknives are ranged weapons. I'd argue that anything thrown counts as a ranged weapon because of the wording "If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll."
I don't speak for Derklord, but that has me convinced that anything you throw is considered a ranged weapon for at least that turn. (Otherwise, let's say that a mug is an improvised weapon without a range listed doesn't count as a ranged weapon then you wouldn't take the -4 to throw it at someone engaged in melee as well as the -4 for using an improvised weapon, and that doesn't make sense. It shouldn't be easier hit someone in melee with a mug as it is to throw it at someone but have it be harder to throw a dagger at someone than it is to stab someone with one.)
Does that make sense? I think it does.

But your last paragraph isn't as convincing as you think it is. While I agree with you, it's not because of the Returning "...can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown..." so it seems like it could be put on most any weapon, even if it's a sword and therefore an improvised thrown weapon. (If I'm wrong, please, let me know what text I'm missing)

*****************************************************

"But Warped, if a melee weapon becomes a ranged weapon when you throw it, like a dagger, then does that mean that it's no longer a melee weapon and therefore my +1 Keen dagger isn't Keen when I throw it?"

Well, bother. I dunno. Sometimes there won't be things laid out well enough and the GM will have to make a judgement call. Arguing about all of this online doesn't make sense and just make the call you want for your game. So long as the players are all good with it it doesn't really matter, does it?


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Warped Savant wrote:
That indicated that when you throw a weapon (even if it's a bastard sword and I can only hit on a 20) it is a ranged weapon for that attack

Yes, it is a ranged weapon for that attack. But you aren't placing the enchantment on it during an attack.

I actually addressed the issue in my first post in this thread, you know? Let me repeat:
In Pathfinder, active abilities and stuff that triggers upon using the weapon in combat check for how it is actually used; physical properties (hardness etc.), permanently chosing a weapon (or weapon type), as well as anything that tries to modify a weapon (including weapon enchantments), goes by what the weapon is listed as in the weapon table (for the size it was crafted for).

The thing is, while for some statistics and using the weapon solely based on how it's currently use, this doesn't work for all of them. A one-handed sword's HP is different form a two-handed sword's, so does a longsword gain HP when you grip it in two hands? That is clearly wrong.

Enchantments aren't directly covered, and the respective FAQs address specific cases, but we have two FAQs on the bastard sword that nonetheless show that a weapon counts as what it's listed as regardless of usage for at least some things:
First, if what a weapon counts as is always dicated by current usage, A Cleric with a deity that has bastard sword as their favored weapon would only get Exotic Weapon proficiency when one-handing the weapon and not when two-handing it, but this FAQ says otherwise.
Second, "The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.". If special materials always treat it as a one-handed weapon, why would enchantments be different? And if that's the case for handedness, why would the melee/ranged classification not follow the same rules?


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zza ni wrote:
no no, when you throw a weapon with no range indication then it's considered an improvised weapon

Completely wrong. There are rules for throwing a weapon not designed for that, and they're completely seperate from improvised weapon rules.

zza ni wrote:
all it say is that ranged weapon are in general less effective in melee

This is a lie. The word "general" that you even bolded does not appear in the text in question, you were the one who added it in.

zza ni wrote:
what actually determine if it's ranged or what not is the weapon group it's listed at

Considering that only only place in the CRB where the term "weapon group" appears is in the Fighter description, and not anywhere in the equipment or combat rules, your claim clearly has no basis in reality.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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So, for the people arguing that even though the text says "ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons" the thrown star knife, knife, club etc. then chucking a starknife into a melee doesn't have a -4 to hit when thrown into melee?


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There seem to be some words missing from your post, but if you were trying to say what I think you were, just read the bolded part of my second to last post. Everything related to the attack- and damage roll is checked based on how you're currently using the weapon.

Seriously, did you even read that post at all? Unlike zza ni, who just makes one unfounded claim after another, I actually present evidence to support ym arguments. If you want's to disagree with what I'm saying, you must disprove my evidence.


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If some GM wanna house-rule that all the heart-piercing magics stuff should only be used with projectile-ammo using ranged weaponry only, they could; but clearly, anime's influence into pop and gaming culture does say otherwise- courtesy of the Type-Moon Fate franchise by way of Irish Mythology. ;)


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Derklord wrote:
If you want's to disagree with what I'm saying, you must disprove my evidence.

Derklord, I can only speak for myself, but I'm less worried about the details of your argument or the precedent you propse they set, and more focused on the premise of the debate itself. Meaning, we're dealing with a rules set that, despite the best efforts of its design team, is in some ways incomplete and sometimes even contradictory. Speaking bluntly, you're trying to glean definitive answers in a codex that isn't always capable of providing them.

We could debate the intent of things like the throwing axe, for example, which can "be used as a melee weapon," is listed under light martial melee weapons, but is also described as "perfectly balanced for throwing"... but absent clarification from people qualified to offer truly definitive RAW/RAI verdicts all we'd be doing is trading assumptions.

In situations like this, where there are compelling arguments to be made both for available rules and for intent implied elsewhere, I always defer to the most important rule.


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Derklord wrote:
zza ni wrote:
no no, when you throw a weapon with no range indication then it's considered an improvised weapon

Completely wrong. There are rules for throwing a weapon not designed for that, and they're completely separate from improvised weapon rules.

*1

zza ni wrote:
all it say is that ranged weapon are in general less effective in melee

This is a lie. The word "general" that you even bolded does not appear in the text in question, you were the one who added it in.

*2

zza ni wrote:
what actually determine if it's ranged or what not is the weapon group it's listed at

Considering that only only place in the CRB where the term "weapon group" appears is in the Fighter description, and not anywhere in the equipment or combat rules, your claim clearly has no basis in reality.

*3

*1: separate doesn't mean unrelated. throwing a weapon that is not meant to be thrown is using it as improvised weapon (which is why throw anything feat is a thing). a rule can be sited in more then one place you know.

see touch spell in combat and also in the magic se3ction for example.

surprisingly enough in the thrown weapon rules of the equipment they are given -4 for throwing a weapon not designed to be thrown just as if they had thrown a bucket or any other improvised weapon...gee could it be because it's an improvised weapon rules?
the same as when you use a reach weapon to hit some1 close? (in the faq and that IS quoting the improvised weapons rules and is why that weapon special abilities do not work when used like so)

*2 i never said the word general was in the text. in fact i never used "" in there to quote since it wasn't a quote. i was trying to make you understand that what you were talking about is a GENERAL RULE and as such the rule it speak is about how weapons GENERALY work. so yea. that is why i bolded it out. and the point since you seam to miss was the GENERALY weapon are separated to melee OR ranged see swords vs bows\darts but there are SPECIFIC weapons which are in more then one group. see how logic work here?

*3 you know what? i agree they should have put the weapon group back when they printed the weapons. idk why they didn't. maybe lack of space or they thought 'hey it has a range in the info that should be a clue big enough.

ether way the archive do add that info in the weapon, maybe they thought it would clarify what the core book was not clear enough with, my point stand the fact a weapon has range indicated mean it is a ranged weapon.

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