It's worth noting that the most direct path to the Elephant people village misses the kobolds (by one hex, but it does miss them). When I ran this section for my players, they went directly to the Elephant people village, then made rafts and traveled along the river until they found the mine.
I don't think that what you're describing are narrative problems. It can be more difficult to tell the story you want, depending on how your party tackles the jungle, but it's all still doable. Finding the kobolds after the mine still works ("Hey look, these are the kobolds Hezle was talking about!"), and IMO finding the fortress before figuring the dragon pillars out is more interesting. Looking at the multicolored shield around the fortress and figuring out that none of the remaining colors match any of the dragon pillars they've found so far is a good way to deduce the puzzle.
The Gerhard situation is trickier, depending on how you want to run the whole twin thing. I just didn't bother with it.
Holistically though, not every encounter needs to be story important in a meaningful way. Finding little nods to things they've already done is rewarding as a party, it makes it feel like your actions have consequences and the world you're inhabiting is alive. In the context of a TTRPG, that makes up for the looser narrative flow in my view.
All that said, if you want to put the encounters in order, there's nothing wrong with that. It's certainly less stressful to prep! The order you've chosen should work well, as far as I can tell.
My players have just begun working the Fortress. They stealthily took out half of the boggards in the watch towers (did anyone else have trouble picturing these?) before the 4th one rolled high enough on his initiative to get a warning out. So now I need to figure out what the response to the alarm would be. It looks like everyone in the building is meant to stay there, either because they are a beastie or have something else preoccupying them. Which does kind of make this a "room by room" dungeon, which always strikes me as weird for an organized force.
It looks like as written only the cultists in C3 respond to the alarm. But they need 5 minutes to get their armor on, which means all the boggards outside will be dead by the time they respond. I suppose they can just send the boggards out ahead though. (I might change these guys into level 4 warrior types. Running that many casters seems unwieldy.)
The Spawn in C4 don't have any response written in, and so they are the only wild card. They are also pretty dangerous and can definitely tip a battle they join. Might have them be part of the first responders-- as long as they don't join the golem! That would be RUFF.
I mean, your players don't know what enemies are inside the fortress. If you want some to magically have their armor on and run out immediately, do it? If you want to invent another group of boggards and charau-ka to supplement the defenses, do it? I personally lightened up the number of encounters inside the fortress because of how my group plays, so if yours is not itching for three or more sessions of straight fighting, adjust as you see fit!
It's worth noting that the most direct path to the Elephant people village misses the kobolds (by one hex, but it does miss them). When I ran this section for my players, they went directly to the Elephant people village, then made rafts and traveled along the river until they found the mine.
I don't think that what you're describing are narrative problems. It can be more difficult to tell the story you want, depending on how your party tackles the jungle, but it's all still doable. Finding the kobolds after the mine still works ("Hey look, these are the kobolds Hezle was talking about!"), and IMO finding the fortress before figuring the dragon pillars out is more interesting. Looking at the multicolored shield around the fortress and figuring out that none of the remaining colors match any of the dragon pillars they've found so far is a good way to deduce the puzzle.
The Gerhard situation is trickier, depending on how you want to run the whole twin thing. I just didn't bother with it.
Holistically though, not every encounter needs to be story important in a meaningful way. Finding little nods to things they've already done is rewarding as a party, it makes it feel like your actions have consequences and the world you're inhabiting is alive. In the context of a TTRPG, that makes up for the looser narrative flow in my view.
All that said, if you want to put the encounters in order, there's nothing wrong with that. It's certainly less stressful to prep! The order you've chosen should work well, as far as I can tell.
I really appreciate your perspective and I will give it more thought. I guess the module contemplates that the PCs can handle ANY of the non-fortress encounters at 6th OR 7th level, including the mine? Usually the modules have the encounters designated for one specific level, which helps for avoiding TPK.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really appreciate your perspective and I will give it more thought. I guess the module contemplates that the PCs can handle ANY of the non-fortress encounters at 6th OR 7th level, including the mine? Usually the modules have the encounters designated for one specific level, which helps for avoiding TPK.It's worth noting that the most direct path to the Elephant people village misses the kobolds (by one hex, but it does miss them). When I ran this section for my players, they went directly to the Elephant people village, then made rafts and traveled along the river until they found the mine.
I don't think that what you're describing are narrative problems. It can be more difficult to tell the story you want, depending on how your party tackles the jungle, but it's all still doable. Finding the kobolds after the mine still works ("Hey look, these are the kobolds Hezle was talking about!"), and IMO finding the fortress before figuring the dragon pillars out is more interesting. Looking at the multicolored shield around the fortress and figuring out that none of the remaining colors match any of the dragon pillars they've found so far is a good way to deduce the puzzle.
The Gerhard situation is trickier, depending on how you want to run the whole twin thing. I just didn't bother with it.
Holistically though, not every encounter needs to be story important in a meaningful way. Finding little nods to things they've already done is rewarding as a party, it makes it feel like your actions have consequences and the world you're inhabiting is alive. In the context of a TTRPG, that makes up for the looser narrative flow in my view.
All that said, if you want to put the encounters in order, there's nothing wrong with that. It's certainly less stressful to prep! The order you've chosen should work well, as far as I can tell.
The system's math really helps here. An encounter is always one step more difficult when done at one level lower, and one step easier when done at one level higher. You'll notice that a lot of the jungle encounters are listed as "Severe 6". That means they'll be a Severe encounter for a level 6 party, and a Moderate encounter for a level 7 party. So those encounters are difficult but doable for a level 6 party, especially because they'll likely only be doing one per day, and they get easier once the party is level 7.
The mine, you'll notice, has a lot of "Moderate 7", some "Low 7", and even a "Trivial 7" or two. As long as you follow the guidelines for keeping individual encounters in the mine separate from one another, the mine is doable at Level 6. The dragon pillar itself will be quite difficult, (it would be an Extreme encounter for a Level 6 party), but the rest of it should be fine.
How the heck does that gate to the Fortress Of Sorrow open, anyway? I cannot visualize it for the life of me.
Well, my player's luck (and/or cleverness) ran out tonight. The barbarian punched a hole in the back wall, startling the Nessian Warhound. She hit them with a breath weapon, but the fighter always carries dog treats and was able to chill her out enough to listen to them. They gave her yes or no questions and realized she didn't want to be here. Meanwhile the Ranger and Barbarian absolutely CARVED their way through the boggards who had answered the alarm, working their way to now open front gate. The ranger crept up and peeked in, and with a little Detect Magic realized the statue was a construct.
So rather than go in the backdoor with the perfectly reasonable hellhound, the barbarian just decided to rush the golem. I think they were high on how easily they decimated the boggards and thought they were invincible. Boy howdy did that golem prove them wrong. The Ranger seemed fixated on running past it and going further into the base for reasons I didn't totally understand. She didn't get far though before the golem fixated on her (I decided it would go after whoever was furthest inside since it was programmed to keep people out) and put her down to 1 hitpoint with a crit and a hit. (She's admittedly a very fragile Ranger.) She then decided to pull back, so the golem turned back to fighter and knocked him out.
I had decided that identifying the clay golem wouldn't tell you all the details of its extremely specific antimagic defenses, but they could gain more information with subsequent Recall Knowledge actions. I let them choose from what it was harmed by, healed by, and specifically vulnerable to. They chose everything but what it was actually harmed by before failing the check and running their knowledge well dry, and none of the rest wound up being useful. Really, what it is harmed by is the only thing you need to know, because that is all you will use, and maybe I will just give that out from the secondary check next time I run a golem. The worst part is the sorcerer tried Ray of Frost and missed, and then never tried it again.
So they ended the session fleeing back to their boat with an unconcious fighter... But they haven't fought Sweet Tooth yet, so I'm going to make their pilot roll stealth to see if they escape the big scaly boi. If not, he might finish them.
And I will need to decide how the remaining forces will be reallocated whenever the party comes back. This might be a good time to send a search party after them, since they are going to have a hard time healing those cursed wounds.
There’s only one traditional entrance into the fortress—a pair of clay-reinforced timber gates at its southern end, which open into area C2. These gates are large and heavy but can’t be locked.
The word into is used twice here, which I take as intentional. The gates can be pushed into room C2 by the party to gain access. Given their angle, they're probably hinged at the bottom of the map and make two separate entryways when open.
I guess the gates would open outward? I just can't imagine how they could have a clay fortress in an area of 5 feet of water and then not have boats around. I just know one of my guys is going to ask about it.
Can a clay golem be discovered by Detect Magic? Wouldn't its inherent immunity to magic prevent that?
I don't think my guys would try and break through any of the walls. But they have a habit of doing random stuff so who knows what's going to happen. Especially now that I've had my first player death. RIP Beshbish, gnome halberd wielding fighter who died from Hezle's bombs.
Yeah I dunno about the boat thing either. The boggards could just swim out though, and maybe the charua-ka can just use vines to swing to he nearby trees?
I'm not sure on the Detect Magic, but you are probably right. Didn't wind up mattering though, because my players just charged the thing anyway.
Perhaps, but does it make sense for a fortress' gate to open outward? Gates that open inward are far more defensible; just pile things up against it. Doors that open outward can be similarly blocked, sealing everyone in. Then again, boggards and charau-ka aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.
My party is still Level 6, and one of my party's characters tried to walk through the energy field at Cinderclaws HQ. (Yikes!)
Does this mean he is petrified permanently? It doesn't look like the black dragon pillar effect has a set duration.
I've already ruled that he became un-petrified 24 hours later because it wasn't fun otherwise. But I'm curious... was it truly permanent? And what recourse does the party have at this level to remove petrification?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The black pillar is blindness. The blue pillar is petrification. If the PC was hit by the blue effect then the duration depends on the degree of success (unaffected, 1 round, 1 hour, permanent). If the result was a critical failure then it is indeed permanent unless it is counteracted.
Shell Defense (abjuration, divine, light) When a creature physically passes through the shell, the creature is affected simultaneously by all colors of energy currently active in the shell; apply these effects in the following order: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet, black. These effects are the same as that of the eye beams described on page 29, but with a save DC of 32. Each effect requires its own save.
I am not sure were the escape attempt should happen. A few options that I am considering:
- Inside the Fortress of Sorrows
- In the jungle, while they are being transfered to the Fortress.
- In the mine or another Cinderclaw location (The red and orange pillar are standing still).
- In other place (a new one created form scracth).
Be careful with having them escape from the Fortress of Sorrow, especially since not all pillars are destroyed yet. Getting out with the shell partially intact would be tricky.
The Ekujae are unlikely to help if they're deep in the jungle as they'd all be blind.
Being transferred from the mine to the fortress is a good idea for an escape location, and perhaps Renali helps them? Maybe their equipment is at the mine and they must go back to retrieve it, dodging encounters until then. I know players hate losing their equipment, but it's a good compromise since they'd technically be dead otherwise.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Be careful with having them escape from the Fortress of Sorrow, especially since not all pillars are destroyed yet. Getting out with the shell partially intact would be tricky.
Haha... "We're free! We did it!" BZZZT
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My party decided to hire Tuskhead Stoneworking to do all the repairs and upgrades on the Citadel. I'll update them as to the background progress of the works between their adventures. I made a formal quote for the Building Works and shared this with them. The Special requests were things their characters specifically wanted to add to the renovation. Here is the pdf for you to use.
That's great!
Yeah, I'm about to run my game again and the party will have a few chances to avoid fighting the croc (at least a stealth check and wild empathy check, I figure) but if they don't succeed at those that thing might wipe them out.
Anyone have thoughts on how Belmazog would redistribute her forces after her boggards are wiped out and a hole is punched in the back wall? I'm thinking the Nessian Warhound might get strict orders to kill anyone who comes in through the back (which is won't be able to refuse, being lawful) and the Elokos and Charau-Ka would get posted outside.
So they snuckout past Sweet Tooth, got caught by him coming back in, then wild empathied him into letting them pass. I put two elokos and two dragon priests out patrolling the walls and two butchers guarding the hole punched in the back wall. The party snuck up and planted a few a snares. All those enemies wound up converging on them , and the over tuned butchers did tremendous damage before going down. The fight wound up being a brutal six rounds.
I think they might have lost it, were it not for the monk whirling throwing enemies to Sweet Tooth. He killed a butcher and eloko. Actually, everyone started shoving each other in the water and then climbing out as quickly as possible when they got dunked themselves. Made for a pretty entertaining back drop.
It occurred to me that the Spawn of Dahak should probably have responded as well, but the book says they take a full minute to heat their hammers first. I suppose that's good. Joining the other cultists probably would have pushed it to TPK territory, but now the party won't have long to recover from that fight.
I'm considering removing a fight or two though-- this has been sooooooo much combat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I removed the Nessian hound and the two chimeras. They felt really random and less relevant to the actual interests of the fortress, so they were simple removals. I think for a different party, they could have been really fun encounters, but my players (especially after the whole of Cult of Cinders, which is very encounter-heavy) weren't looking to see a final boss fortress/fight extend out to three or even four sessions.
It was a really fun book, though! Some memorable fights, but also the pure hatred my players came up with for Gerhard Pendergast stood way out. They stole his boat and captured him alive and then he "tripped and hit his head on a rock" when the bard was alone with him. The kishi and the angel was also an interesting day.
I also had a really good time adding in some encounters of my own, to try to shake things up a bit. The old crone in her little hut, so pleasant and slightly creepy, who filled them in a bit on the nul-acrumi vazhgul and told them to kill her sister, Rusty Mae, if they ever run into her. The boggard camp with all the tormented, blinded elven prisoners that I built to test out the infiltration rules from the GMG. The aboleth scout under the river casting bizarre illusions into the feast at Akrivel, who was sent to determine the influence of the Scarlet Triad in the area (I really loved the aside in book 5, I think it was, that a prominent person was, inconsequentially, a vidileth in disguise--so I decided to try to subtly weave some of their machinations into a book or two as needed).
Had a terrific time running this one. I wish my players were a bit more excited by combat, as I feel like I frequently am cutting down on really random stuff to try to include more clearly connected, non-violent encounters.
I love this damn AP so far. It's my first and boy have I had a blast preparing, modifying, and running it!
I like the hound. I think I can avoid her turning into another fight. If Belmazog told her to kill anyone who tries to get in through the hole, she can probably growl and gesture at the PCs to stop them from trying. If they make another entrance they can sneak in and kill Belmazog for her.
But the Chimeras are pretty random, yeah. I dunno, might ditch them. Or only leave one so it doesn't take so long to kill it because Chimeras are at least interesting.
Question about the hex map. What do you give to your players? The hex map in the book and PDF show all the encounter zones even if the labels are removed. So one look at the map and the PCs will know where to go.
Did you show them a blank map? How did you make it? Got a game tomorrow, so I'd love to know today!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I created a hex map and removed the locations. You can find it over in the Community Created Content thread.
I created a hex map and removed the locations. You can find it over in the Community Created Content thread.
Wow! Lots of great stuff there, thanks! I just went on a "Save Shortcut to Google Drive" orgy.
If we weren't all playing over the computer these days, I'd use all those item cards. I'll probably still yoink all the images.
Here's one I made, listing all the actions for RULING CITADEL ALTAEREIN
What do folks think about making the chimeras chained up as guard beasts in the Fortress? It could allow for a Thievery check to unchain them and let them escape into the jungle. It keeps them as a noteworthy set piece but allows for a less violent solution. I think it would appeal to my eco-friendly table, at least. Unfortunately, none of them are trained in thievery and if the restraints could be brute forced the chimeras probably would have done so by now. But for other groups it might be a nice solution.
Hey question for those who've played through the exploration aspect of this adventure.
One of my players wants to use Wanderer's Guide (p383 Corebook) and more or less set the destination to be "that hex over there [picks hex three hexes away from current location", with the argument that the PCs have received a map from the Ekujae that roughly matches the hex map the players are using. He essentially just wants to be able to speed up how fast the PCs can search the jungle.
I am not so sure it works this way, and am more inclined to say "Well if your destination is Akrivel, you can get back there faster." I might even be willing to let it work on the Cinderclaw Mine, given they've run into the kobold miners who told them a little bit about it.
Anyone else have players use this spell? How did they use, and how did you as a GM adjudicate it?
Thanks,
|
I'd say you could pick a landmark as a destination and effectively do this in some cases, yes. I mean 'this random spot in the jungle' probably wouldn't work, but 'the place where the river forks' or something like that should work fine.
In the PF2 playtest, my PCs used a similar effect to quickly retrace their steps to places they'd been and could thus specify as a destination, and that would definitely work and cut the necessary time significantly.
|
One of my players asked about casting Dispel Magic on the Vrock with the intent to dispel the conjuration effect. This was based on him seeing the magic circle and assuming it could be banished. After I seemed hesitant (with no guidelines included for this) he decided the check would probably be too difficult.
Can such conjuration effects be dispelled?
I would allow a player to use Waderer's Guide with a hex as a destination. The spell doesn't specify how specific the destination has to be, and a 10 mile stretch of jungle is still a destination. Though there's a different spell of the same level called Show the Way that, as far as I can tell, does the same thing but does not require a destination. It's divine/primal instead of divine/occult, but both are such narrow spells that I would guess that their most common use case is a cleric or Druid preparing them, rather than a bard or a sorcerer knowing them.
As for dispelling conjuration effects, it depends. Dispel Magic counteracts spell effects (or temporarily suppresses magic items). If the Vrock was summoned with Summon Fiend and was actively being sustained, I'd rule that dispel magic would be appropriate. However, this Vrock was summoned by a ritual, therefore there is no spell effect to dispel.
Whether or not the Vrock is a summoned creature depends on whether or not creatures summoned with the Planar Ally ritual count as summoned, or if they are simply extraplanar creatures inhabiting the material plane. I would rule that the Vrock is a summoned creature, as a Ritual was required to summon it.
I don't see why Dispel Magic wouldn't work on a summon spell, though. It's an ongoing spell effect, which is something Dispel Magic can target. Considering that the spell needs to be actively sustained, there's clearly some active magic still going on to keep the creature in the material plane, if you need an in universe reason as to why it would make sense.
So my players actually liked Gerhard Pendergast and decided to let him keep the dragon pillar. They appreciated the 10 gp each for helping him move it, took it to his boat, and shared some stories before Gerhard left to find the temple he was looking for.
Anybody else have that issue? I’m hoping they change their mind by the time they encounter him again at the temple, but they may roll with it and let him do his thing without interfering. I could see that causing problems when they attempt to get through the shield.
If they find Gerhard at the temple later, you could play up the *cartoonish* level of villainy inherent in his plan. Gerhard is demolishing an ancient temple, sacred to local cultures, just because it contradicts his theory about the local religion. A theory that's demonstrably incorrect, which Gerhard would know if he had bothered to ask literally any local. If your PCs have Society or Religion, you can give them checks that will let them derive this information themselves.
If you need a backup plan, you could make an encounter containing local wildlife attacking Gerhard while he blows up the temple. If your party defends Gerhard, he could be grateful enough to part with his broken dragon pillar. It would be a bit out of character for Gerhard, but I don't see anything wrong with tweaking him to be more reasonable if your party has taken a liking to him.
I'm speaking theoretically, because my party tied his arms and legs together and sunk him in his own boat.
|
Anybody else have that issue? I’m hoping they change their mind by the time they encounter him again at the temple, but they may roll with it and let him do his thing without interfering. I could see that causing problems when they attempt to get through the shield.
As you noted, unless they actually destroyed the pillar—which Gerhard won't allow—they can't bring down the shield. I'd try to make it clear to them that the pillar is still radiating some kind of magic. I'm assuming they haven't encountered the shield yet and don't realize the pillars are connected to it?
Or, let it go for now. Once they find the shield, make the connection, and realize that the only layer of the shield remaining is the pillar they gave to Gerhard, they can engage in a desperate race to track him down the river before he takes the pillar permanently out of their reach. I'd allow them to track him and catch up, and have the final confrontation with Gerhard somewhere on the river.
Thanks all.
It’s funny, I played up the whole pillaging-the-jungle attitude and had him drop some really patriarchal statements to Renali about jungle savages, but I also leaned into the raw charisma of a solo jungle explorer and they just let everything slide. They connected the dots that the elves wouldn’t like him, so they just decided not to tell the elves.
I think they mistakenly believe that the totems only cause the blindness and that by taking the totem away it will solve the problem. I’m hoping they change their mind when they meet him again, but we’ll see. It will be fun (for me anyways) seeing them trying to get through the last barrier knowing the totem is long gone.
They missed some xp opportunities in Akrivel and are starting off the pillars chapter still at level 5, and they ran into Gerhard almost immediately while looking for a place to cross the river. Gotta say, that elephant encounter was more fun than I expected!
Also, how can the indigo pillar mind control four gripplis, if the indigo pillar explicitly notes that it can mind control only three creatures at a time?
Not seeing any answer to this question.
I'm just going to run the indigo pillar so that the 3-creature limit applies against party members. (So, in effect, a *7-creature* limit) I think that's the intention of the hazard.
So the book doesn't explicitly say the PCs can Identify Magic to figure out how the pillars work, but I really think it should. The explanation I gave my players is that while the pillars could fire laser beams and stuff before being broken, they also acted as magical relays, signal boosting other effects over the region. Namely, the blinding effect on the Eukujae. This makes the stakes clearer and destroying the pillar a goal.
Also, I decided that taking down a pillar meant the Eukujae could enter the area it was in again, so each pillar destroyed let them take back more territory. They couldn't enter the Fortress, as it was the center of the magic, but they could essentially blockade it to keep any cultists from escaping or getting reinforcements.
I think it helps the adventure flow better and makes the Eukujae feel like part of taking back their lands while keeping the camera focused on the PCs.