arcane trickster?


Second Edition

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I've currently got a group using playtest rules and switching to 2E in august.
One of my players brought up the arcane trickster and using rays in combination with sneak attacks.

Now my question is is there anything known already about this? Or can it work at all with how rogues will work (is that maybe known already)


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There was a level 4 class feat for Rogues revealed that specifically lets you sneak attack with touch spells IIRC.


Okay missed that one, the question is - does it work with ranged touch spells? (And how is that effected by no more tac?)


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Seisho wrote:
Okay missed that one, the question is - does it work with ranged touch spells? (And how is that effected by no more tac?)

The enemy just need to be flat footed and the Rogue have the feat to do Sneak Attack with magic for it to work. No more TAC so it just your spell attack modifier against the enemy AC, no more DEX for spellcasters to hit their spells.


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Spoiler #67:

Quote:

Magical Trickster (Rogue Feat 4)

Whether you’re using magic items, wielding innate magic, or dabbling in spellcasting, you can sneak spells past your foes’ defenses as easily as any blade. When you succeed at a spell attack roll against a flat-footed foe’s AC and the spell deals damage, you can add your sneak attack damage to the damage roll. If your single spell leads to multiple separate damage rolls, apply your sneak attack damage only once per target.


I wonder if it will be tough to get ranged sneak attack like before


Probally but rogue get it easier to sneak attack the higher lvl since certain class feats make it easier.


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Lanathar wrote:
I wonder if it will be tough to get ranged sneak attack like before

Having one Alchemist or Fighter in the party basically makes the enemy flat footed forever and you can always hide to make the enemy flat footed against your attacks too.


Kyrone wrote:
Lanathar wrote:
I wonder if it will be tough to get ranged sneak attack like before
Having one Alchemist or Fighter in the party basically makes the enemy flat footed forever and you can always hide to make the enemy flat footed against your attacks too.

How come ? I haven’t read through all the paizocon spoiler cards

I guess tanglefoot bags are the alchemist thing?


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That or some other bombs have similar effects. As for fighters, a lot of manouvers can be used for that, and especially freehand fighters are damn good at it.


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Lanathar wrote:
Kyrone wrote:
Lanathar wrote:
I wonder if it will be tough to get ranged sneak attack like before
Having one Alchemist or Fighter in the party basically makes the enemy flat footed forever and you can always hide to make the enemy flat footed against your attacks too.

How come ? I haven’t read through all the paizocon spoiler cards

I guess tanglefoot bags are the alchemist thing?

Bootled Lighting caused the Flat Footed condition to any enemy that it his until the start of the next turn of the person that used it.


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Kyrone wrote:
Lanathar wrote:
Kyrone wrote:
Lanathar wrote:
I wonder if it will be tough to get ranged sneak attack like before
Having one Alchemist or Fighter in the party basically makes the enemy flat footed forever and you can always hide to make the enemy flat footed against your attacks too.

How come ? I haven’t read through all the paizocon spoiler cards

I guess tanglefoot bags are the alchemist thing?

Bootled Lighting caused the Flat Footed condition to any enemy that it his until the start of the next turn of the person that used it.

Yeah, Bottled Lightning is a Rogue’s best friend right after that knife looking hungrily at some poor bandit’s kidney. Especially with access to Quick Draw, and if it remains cheep to craft a low level version, i imagine a Rogue carrying a couple regularly.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

As far as Arcane Trickster itself, I strongly suspect it's simply been absorbed into Rogue as "things Rogues should be able to do anyway". I would bet we will get Rogue feats for ranged lockpicking and emergency sneak attacks, and a high level Rogue feat to sneak attack with AoE spells.


Well ranged lockpicking makes sense

but I don'T think AoE spells get sneak attack

and I have no idea what emergency sneak attacks are supposed to be


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Those are Arcane Trickster class features. Impromptu Sneak Attack let them make a sneak attack against a creature that didn't have any other reason to be vulnerable to one, and the Arcane Trickster capstone let them sneak attack with AoE spells.


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I wouldn't say that that's an emergency sneak attack but that is useful
but I don't think it would be a good feature to add because it would be either a focus ability (which is not a rogue think iirc) or be basically a feint


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Out of all the Arcane Trickster class features I think that is the one least likely to return, yes.

I don't have a problem with it being a Focus spell, though - I think all classes should have access to Focus spells one way or another, and arcane trickster Rogues seem like the obvious candidate for a Rogue build that has Focus spells. The feat just needs to include the language "if you don't have a Focus pool, you gain a 1 point pool and can recharge it by [whatever]".


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Well I don't agree that every class need to get acess to focus spells but I think that in one of the Know Direction interviews Logan mentioned about a possible Racket that give acess to some magic and an Investigator racket in the future.

Dark Archive

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I don’t think a rogue will need impromptu sneak attack since there was the level 14 class feat that made enemies flat footed at the cost of one action.

Liberty's Edge

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Tbh I would likely build a Rogue and then take Wizard Dedication and just be very judicious in picking out the spells I memorized. If you go Wizard w/ Rogue Dedication you're never going to get better than 1d6 Sneak Attack where as if you go Rogue with Wizard you can scale Sneak Attack to full and just limit your spell choices.

I guess really it just depends on what you want to focus on?

Liberty's Edge

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Can't rogues just always do half-strength sneaks anyway?


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Narxiso wrote:
I don’t think a rogue will need impromptu sneak attack since there was the level 14 class feat that made enemies flat footed at the cost of one action.

I forgot about this; this effectively is Impromptu Sneak Attack under another name.

On the Focus spells thing - I don't think all classes should have native access to Focus spells, but I do think all classes except maybe Fighter should have a path that gets them Focus spells. I feel like "X, except with a little magic" should be a thing you can do without needing to multiclass - and more then that, I feel like every class should have its own "little magical things" it can do that are specific to that class.


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MaxAstro wrote:
Narxiso wrote:
I don’t think a rogue will need impromptu sneak attack since there was the level 14 class feat that made enemies flat footed at the cost of one action.

I forgot about this; this effectively is Impromptu Sneak Attack under another name.

On the Focus spells thing - I don't think all classes should have native access to Focus spells, but I do think all classes except maybe Fighter should have a path that gets them Focus spells. I feel like "X, except with a little magic" should be a thing you can do without needing to multiclass - and more then that, I feel like every class should have its own "little magical things" it can do that are specific to that class.

I mean, if we are expanding the classes that get Focus options I'd actually love to see Fighter get something. Like a supernatural Blademaster kind of aesthetic or something. I was going to suggest an Eldritch Knight path but then remembered Fighters don't have paths.


From what has been spoiled so far, has there been anything that could really support a magical trickster build. From what I have heard, I am pretty sure you could grab cantrips from just ancestries, but cantrips seem quite limiting. It might be as simple as taking the right multi-class dedication and grabbing the right spells and support, but I am not sure that will be enough. And maybe will have the right items or powers to make it work, but I don't think I have seen any so far.

Though, while I am skeptical about magical trickster at launch, I am hopeful for it in the future. After enough content, there should eventually be enough to make it work hopefully.

I have already been looking forward to kineticist, I think this could work quite nicely if you could go pew-pew-pew. Just throwing a metric ton of fiery bolts at people, very sneaky like.


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Edge93 wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
Narxiso wrote:
I don’t think a rogue will need impromptu sneak attack since there was the level 14 class feat that made enemies flat footed at the cost of one action.

I forgot about this; this effectively is Impromptu Sneak Attack under another name.

On the Focus spells thing - I don't think all classes should have native access to Focus spells, but I do think all classes except maybe Fighter should have a path that gets them Focus spells. I feel like "X, except with a little magic" should be a thing you can do without needing to multiclass - and more then that, I feel like every class should have its own "little magical things" it can do that are specific to that class.

I mean, if we are expanding the classes that get Focus options I'd actually love to see Fighter get something. Like a supernatural Blademaster kind of aesthetic or something. I was going to suggest an Eldritch Knight path but then remembered Fighters don't have paths.

Tome. Of. Battle.


Leotamer wrote:

From what has been spoiled so far, has there been anything that could really support a magical trickster build. From what I have heard, I am pretty sure you could grab cantrips from just ancestries, but cantrips seem quite limiting. It might be as simple as taking the right multi-class dedication and grabbing the right spells and support, but I am not sure that will be enough. And maybe will have the right items or powers to make it work, but I don't think I have seen any so far.

Though, while I am skeptical about magical trickster at launch, I am hopeful for it in the future. After enough content, there should eventually be enough to make it work hopefully.

I have already been looking forward to kineticist, I think this could work quite nicely if you could go pew-pew-pew. Just throwing a metric ton of fiery bolts at people, very sneaky like.

What are you looking for exactly? Because as mentioned, there is a feat that lets you sneak attack with spells.


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Leotamer wrote:
From what has been spoiled so far, has there been anything that could really support a magical trickster build. From what I have heard, I am pretty sure you could grab cantrips from just ancestries, but cantrips seem quite limiting. It might be as simple as taking the right multi-class dedication and grabbing the right spells and support, but I am not sure that will be enough. And maybe will have the right items or powers to make it work, but I don't think I have seen any so far.

Multiclassing into a caster gets you up to 8th level spells; some Focus Spells that could match with it; magic items with ‘Trick Magic Item’ Skill Feat.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Not to mention "rogue that uses magic items to supplement their routine" is WAY more viable now, since wands and scrolls have non-crap DCs.


Captain Morgan wrote:
Leotamer wrote:

From what has been spoiled so far, has there been anything that could really support a magical trickster build. From what I have heard, I am pretty sure you could grab cantrips from just ancestries, but cantrips seem quite limiting. It might be as simple as taking the right multi-class dedication and grabbing the right spells and support, but I am not sure that will be enough. And maybe will have the right items or powers to make it work, but I don't think I have seen any so far.

Though, while I am skeptical about magical trickster at launch, I am hopeful for it in the future. After enough content, there should eventually be enough to make it work hopefully.

I have already been looking forward to kineticist, I think this could work quite nicely if you could go pew-pew-pew. Just throwing a metric ton of fiery bolts at people, very sneaky like.

What are you looking for exactly? Because as mentioned, there is a feat that lets you sneak attack with spells.

I was referring to that feat. It is named very similarly to arcane trickster, maybe I should have been more clear.

I was asking how could you leverage that feat in a way that would be on par with simply using ranged weapons. It may be that I just simply underestimating the amount of spell slots you get from multi-classing.


Well lvl 20 multiclass into caster if you grab all casting class feats in say wizard dedication will give you 14 spell slots.

But someone who starts off in caster class at 20 should have between 36-37 spell slots.


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MaxAstro wrote:
Not to mention "rogue that uses magic items to supplement their routine" is WAY more viable now, since wands and scrolls have non-crap DCs.

Now I am imagining Merisiel but instead of having hundreds of daggers it have hundreds of wands, unlimited wands works.


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Leotamer wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Leotamer wrote:

From what has been spoiled so far, has there been anything that could really support a magical trickster build. From what I have heard, I am pretty sure you could grab cantrips from just ancestries, but cantrips seem quite limiting. It might be as simple as taking the right multi-class dedication and grabbing the right spells and support, but I am not sure that will be enough. And maybe will have the right items or powers to make it work, but I don't think I have seen any so far.

Though, while I am skeptical about magical trickster at launch, I am hopeful for it in the future. After enough content, there should eventually be enough to make it work hopefully.

I have already been looking forward to kineticist, I think this could work quite nicely if you could go pew-pew-pew. Just throwing a metric ton of fiery bolts at people, very sneaky like.

What are you looking for exactly? Because as mentioned, there is a feat that lets you sneak attack with spells.

I was referring to that feat. It is named very similarly to arcane trickster, maybe I should have been more clear.

I was asking how could you leverage that feat in a way that would be on par with simply using ranged weapons. It may be that I just simply underestimating the amount of spell slots you get from multi-classing.

The one attack Cantrip we have seen, Divine Lance, takes 2 actions and does 1d4+casting mod, adding 1d4 per spell level, so eventually 10d4+casting mod. This seems reasonably comparable with shortbows, which start at 1d6 and eventually end up at 4d6+1/2 Str (plus Weapon Specialization). Of course with sneak that's 10d4+4d6+mod vs 8d6+1/2Str+Spec and bow only takes one action but landing two bow shots is less likely because MAP.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if there are d6/spell level Cantrips as well, it'd be surprising if the Divine attack Cantrip was as strong as Arcane ones (pleasantly surprising).

Also it's great for a Rogue that likes both ranged and melee, since you can wield whatever and still have an at-will ranged attack.

TL;DR I think Cantrips will be a perfectly viable weapon for a Rogue, and you can get some great stuff out of more feats in Multiclass. (CoughLevel4InvisibilityCough)


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Kyrone wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
Not to mention "rogue that uses magic items to supplement their routine" is WAY more viable now, since wands and scrolls have non-crap DCs.
Now I am imagining Merisiel but instead of having hundreds of daggers it have hundreds of wands, unlimited wands works.

If you click on the Pathfinder tag at the top, and after the page loads you scroll down to Age of Ashes, it shows Merisiel using a wand with a Dagger in her other hand.

Silver Crusade

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Pumpkinhead11 wrote:
Kyrone wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:
Not to mention "rogue that uses magic items to supplement their routine" is WAY more viable now, since wands and scrolls have non-crap DCs.
Now I am imagining Merisiel but instead of having hundreds of daggers it have hundreds of wands, unlimited wands works.
If you click on the Pathfinder tag at the top, and after the page loads you scroll down to Age of Ashes, it shows Merisiel using a wand with a Dagger in her other hand.

Oh badass! I hadn't seen that before, thankies for pointing it out ^w^


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Quote:
Also I wouldn't be surprised if there are d6/spell level Cantrips as well, it'd be surprising if the Divine attack Cantrip was as strong as Arcane ones (pleasantly surprising).

In playtest we had chill touch (d8), disrupt undead (d10), electric arc (d6, possible multiple targets), produce flame (d6), ray of frost (d8) and telekinetic projectile (d8)

They weren'T scaling as good as divine lance but iirc cantrips have been buffed since the playtest (I think acid splash for example went up from d4 to d6)
So, there is hope for good cantrips for magic sneak attakcs


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There are also focus spells which can be renewed between fights. If I was building an arcane trickster and wanted to spam as many spells as possible, I'd probably spend my feats getting focus powers over spell slots. I'm sure some will be blasts.


The other thing I am curious about is the wording. It explicitly allows you to sneak attack multiple targets with the same spell, but only once per target, when it could have been written so you can only sneak attack one target per spell. Am I some how horribly misreading this? If not, is there a way to make a spell attack role against multiple targets. Looking at some play-test spells, magic missile doesn't make spell attack roles and all of the multi-hit spells are saving throw only.

Being able to hit multiple targets with sneak attack with a single spell seems really strong, and seems like it is intentional.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Nope, it's multi-target.


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I would guess it is rather intended that the sneak attack is only supposed to hit the first target - but can'T be sure

If it'S actually multi-target there will be a lot of rogues with electric arc running around

Silver Crusade

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tqomins wrote:

Spoiler #67:

Quote:

Magical Trickster (Rogue Feat 4)

Whether you’re using magic items, wielding innate magic, or dabbling in spellcasting, you can sneak spells past your foes’ defenses as easily as any blade. When you succeed at a spell attack roll against a flat-footed foe’s AC and the spell deals damage, you can add your sneak attack damage to the damage roll. If your single spell leads to multiple separate damage rolls, apply your sneak attack damage only once per target.

The caveat is it has to be an attack roll, so no Sneak Attacking with fireball.


Is there anything we know about, or anything from the playtest, that can make spell attack roll/s against multiple targets?


Leotamer wrote:
Is there anything we know about, or anything from the playtest, that can make spell attack roll/s against multiple targets?
Seisho wrote:
electric arc


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Rysky wrote:
tqomins wrote:

Spoiler #67:

Quote:

Magical Trickster (Rogue Feat 4)

Whether you’re using magic items, wielding innate magic, or dabbling in spellcasting, you can sneak spells past your foes’ defenses as easily as any blade. When you succeed at a spell attack roll against a flat-footed foe’s AC and the spell deals damage, you can add your sneak attack damage to the damage roll. If your single spell leads to multiple separate damage rolls, apply your sneak attack damage only once per target.

The caveat is it has to be an attack roll, so no Sneak Attacking with fireball.

So, no to electric arc like Seisho is wishing for (It's a reflex save), but yes to Scorching Rays and any other machine gun style spells.


Magical Trickster wrote:
If your single spell leads to multiple separate damage rolls, apply your sneak attack damage only once per target.

This wording prevents you from applying sneak attack multiple times per target via

- ongoing damage from your spell
- spells like PF1s Scorching Ray where you may fire multiple rays


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Ah darn, I really misread that...now that'S emberassing

but Scorching ray would be a classical candidate for this, even though we don't have it in playstest


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masda_gib wrote:
Magical Trickster wrote:
If your single spell leads to multiple separate damage rolls, apply your sneak attack damage only once per target.

This wording prevents you from applying sneak attack multiple times per target via

- ongoing damage from your spell
- spells like PF1s Scorching Ray where you may fire multiple rays

My point being I shoot 5 SEPARATE people with Scorching Ray, dealing SA to 5 different dudes, not one dude 5 times.

Liberty's Edge

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If you make attack rolls against multiple targets who are also flat footed then enjoy the Sneak Attack on them all. :D


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This isn't exactly on point of the discussion but I love how Instant Opening let's you literally flip someone off or make a yo momma joke and then SA them. XD


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Instant Opening is cool but it kinda makes the Scoundrel Rogue pointless, I hope that this racket have some feats to fix that.

Silver Crusade

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Edge93 wrote:
This isn't exactly on point of the discussion but I love how Instant Opening let's you literally flip someone off or make a yo momma joke and then SA them. XD

Unless it's a Black Dragon, then you immediately get backhanded by their Reaction.

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