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I know nothing of a way to prevent power attack or similar, but if they can hit 150-400 dm. in a round, then it is only when they full attack and you need to make that more difficult. This is easier with martial charcters than archers.
But please tell more of your group composition if you want better advice.
Seize advantage is a feat swashbucklers can use vs. power attackers, but there's no generally available counter.
Similarly unchained monks can get the formless mastery ki power to counter style-using enemies.
Effects which make movement dangerous or difficult can make jabbing style hard to use of course.
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in a different thread i made a level 12 character for a friend who follow Mr. Miyagi's advice for not being hit - not being there!.
he can pretty much keep lightning stance constant while hiding and having his Anku clones attack and decoy ring clones run about. (each round going invisible and making more clones too. the Anku clones seem to gain the benefit of the stance and invisibility as well)
also with his clones he can form a 16 men Conga line flash mob all by himself, which we find hilarious.
Is Jabbing Style really the main source of the monk's dmg, though?
If the monk is reaching 400 dpr, then unless they have like 20+ attacks per round, Jabbing Style isn't the problem. It's at best avg +14 dmg per hit.
Can you get more specifics for their builds?
While 400 damage in a round isn't impossible, that sounds like "got lucky enough to land all of their attacks in a round and crit on at least one" territory.
In order to give you better advice I would need to see their builds. If they're regularly dealing 400 damage in a round without a crit I suspect they may be accidentally breaking the rules.
For a level 14 character I would expect only 2 of 3 attacks to hit, or 3 of 5 for a TWF. Archers might have 5 attacks worth of damage possible, and I would expect maybe 4 arrows worth of damage to actually hit. But still, they would need to be averaging nearly 100 damage per hit to reach the level of damage you describe. Which is possible, but usually only a crit.
What are the other characters? If the other characters are full casters their damage should be a lot less than a dedicated martial character.
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If they don't have true seeing, you can rain on their parade of blows by using Mirror Image or Displacement. You could make the Monk nearly useless with retaliatory effects like Fire Shield. You could be able to draw out the combat by making multiple weaker enemies who do not group together (since his style strike which allows him to move and make a full attack is one per round).
But the real solution starts with a question: How is the rest of the party contributing?
Can you get more specifics for their builds?
While 400 damage in a round isn't impossible, that sounds like "got lucky enough to land all of their attacks in a round and crit on at least one" territory.
In order to give you better advice I would need to see their builds. If they're regularly dealing 400 damage in a round without a crit I suspect they may be accidentally breaking the rules.
For a level 14 character I would expect only 2 of 3 attacks to hit, or 3 of 5 for a TWF. Archers might have 5 attacks worth of damage possible, and I would expect maybe 4 arrows worth of damage to actually hit. But still, they would need to be averaging nearly 100 damage per hit to reach the level of damage you describe. Which is possible, but usually only a crit.
I second this
Well, Jabbing Style heavily depends on the target AC, but a pretty well build 14th level unMonk with Jabbing Style chain (and Monk's Robe) does around 170 DPR against an average CR 14 target (lower CR targets would of course mean more DPR due to lower AC, but everything below CR 13 probably dies too soon). That's without Medusa's Wrath.
For a level 14 character I would expect only 2 of 3 attacks to hit, or 3 of 5 for a TWF.
It's an unMonk, so we're talking about 5 attacks at full BAB, which hit fairly reliable (the Monk shouldn't use Power Attack against tougher enemies). For the average CR14 enemy, that's 5.5 average hits per round without Elbow Smash.
For a level 14 character I would expect only 2 of 3 attacks to hit, or 3 of 5 for a TWF.It's an unMonk, so we're talking about 5 attacks at full BAB, which hit fairly reliable (the Monk shouldn't use Power Attack against tougher enemies). For the average CR14 enemy, that's 5.5 average hits per round without Elbow Smash.
5 how?
Flurry of blows would give him 3 at full BAB. I guess he could spend a ki point to make an extra attack and that gives him 4, though he will go through ki very quickly if he does that every round.
The unchained monk still suffers from not having built in accuracy boosters, which is why they get bonus attacks at full BAB, because their iterative attacks are likely to miss.
But you do have a point, they will hit more often than my initial estimates. Still, as you said 170 points of damage is the expected average. Not 400.
For a level 14 character I would expect only 2 of 3 attacks to hit, or 3 of 5 for a TWF.It's an unMonk, so we're talking about 5 attacks at full BAB, which hit fairly reliable (the Monk shouldn't use Power Attack against tougher enemies). For the average CR14 enemy, that's 5.5 average hits per round without Elbow Smash.5 how?
Flurry of blows would give him 3 at full BAB. I guess he could spend a ki point to make an extra attack and that gives him 4, though he will go through ki very quickly if he does that every round.
The unchained monk still suffers from not having built in accuracy boosters, which is why they get bonus attacks at full BAB, because their iterative attacks are likely to miss.
But you do have a point, they will hit more often than my initial estimates. Still, as you said 170 points of damage is the expected average. Not 400.
Haste/boots of speed perhaps?
Blood crow strike is a ranged flurry sure but half the damage is fire - more enemies will be resistant to this than not at this level. Also it's SR: yes.
Flying characters who don't have a lot of ranks in the fly skill (like monks, probably) are at a serious disadvantage once they leave the ground. Getting behind them and/or control winds and so on can make life very difficult for them, though I'm not sure if you'd object to that considering you dislike using even darkness.
The main way of dealing with the shifter is probably to present a target-rich environment. They can charge one and only one enemy each round.
1) Stay out of melee. Optimized archers from a 200-300 feet away with distance bows can probably do comparable damage (if not more).
2) Reduce the hit chance. Not just boosting AC, but mirror image and other abilities, feats, and spells that cause missed attacks irrespective of attack bonuses. Status effects to cause penalties are also helpful (a cad fighter can cause damage and impose penalties with each attack, under the right conditions; which aren't that difficult to set up).
3) Reduce the number of possible attacks. Making the melee types move a lot means fewer full attacks, but status effects are also good (dazed, entangled, nauseated, staggered, etc.) or just the old standby of Improved Trip/Greater Trip with a reach weapon.
I guess he could spend a ki point to make an extra attack and that gives him 4, though he will go through ki very quickly if he does that every round.
Unless he has selected Ki Leech as a Qinggong Power. It costs 0 ki, so it can be maintained all day long, and even when not totally abusing it (which is rather easy), it's a huge boost.
And yes, the 5th attack is from Haste - even if not one in the party casts Haste or Blessing of Fervor, at 14th level one could afford multiple Boots of Speed. Although I wouldn't be surprised if the Monk in question has more equipment than WBL suggests.
He has Medusa's Wrath
How does he reliably trigger it?
The true culprit here is flying kick, tbh for everything that allows you to full attack and move should be not allowed for a player imo.
On the contrary, every melee should have such an option. Lack of those is one of Pathfinder's biggest issues. Does the Shifter not have pounce?
I already nerfed him by saying that the flying kick doesn't count toward the jabbing stack. Last time I nerfed him by saying that he can't flying kick while flying for it suppose that you have a surface to push.
Honestly, both of these sound unfair and a bit vindictive. Flying Kick is still an unarmed strike, which is all Jabbing Master asks for. I don't known ho the Monk is flying, but nothing in the flying kick description asks for firm ground to push off of.
Have you tried talking to the player? If he's making the game unfun for other players, it's not an ingame solution that you should seek. Talk to the players, ask him to tone it done, maybe offer some free retraining.
To answer a bit...
He has Medusa's Wrath, often starts first, has boots of speed, spam Ki on the flurry. In a day it's rare that he run out of resources because, as you can imagine, from fights do not last long.
The true culprit here is flying kick, tbh for everything that allows you to full attack and move should be not allowed for a player imo.
He has 7 attacks at his maximum bonus, 2 at -5 (elbow strike) and 1 at -10.
how is he reliably triggering medusa?
I already nerfed him by saying that the flying kick doesn't count toward the jabbing stack. Last time I nerfed him by saying that he can't flying kick while flying for it suppose that you have a surface to push.
These kinds of solutions make me cringe, it’s kind of half deliberately being obtuse with the rules are also changing how a players character functions
In a past campaign where I had similar problems (a bolt ace with crit 17-20/X4 and insane luck) I resorted to spam extra HD and abundance of advanced templates. It didn't resort to anything if not to frustrate the weaker characters.(/QOUTE]
On its own, one character being really good at killing things is t a problem, some classes are really good at killing things.
That being a problem sounds more like a symptom of a wider issue to me.
[QUOTE)
I highly disagree with the assumption that every melee character should be able to full round attack every turn.
having a pounce like ability doesn’t mean full attacking every turn.
Almost all pounce abilities have pretty meagre range and require a straight line un-impeded by terrain or other allies/enemies.
Most martial not having this is part of the reason they are widely weaker than archers and casters.
A caster can still move and cast there spell, which will almost invariably be better than a martial moving and making one attack at full BAB.
Archers can full attack most turns(more often than pouncing characters). It’s only melee martial without pounce that struggle to bring their full power to bear most turns.
And instead of Power Creep my own stuff I prefer to not let them fight 100% of their capabilities every fight. Usually I go crazy with environmental stuff.
this is certainly one type of solution to engage at least some of the time (as you say if it’s ubiquitous it can get old.
The last fight of book 4 they were in a far pool while the boss was behind a wall of light+wall of force combo in an area of deep darkenss. When they finally got to swing the bastard it was quite satisfying.However after a while it gets repetitive and bogging, expecially because after a while they are the same old expedients that come back every campaign.
I was looking for new feats to surprise them but I'm fine with crafting my own stuff.
It seems like you are missing the obvious answer though.
That monk doing 400 damage (still not clear on where that figure is coming from) can only do that to one target a turn and there is no reward for overkill.
I would say the solution would be to plan encounters around having multiple opponents. Best in my opinion is say 4-6 strong enemies rather than 1 or 2 very strong one and a load of minions. Then each kill is meaningful and one hard hitting martial can’t steal the spotlight.
To answer a bit...
He has Medusa's Wrath, often starts first, has boots of speed, spam Ki on the flurry. In a day it's rare that he run out of resources because, as you can imagine, from fights do not last long.
The true culprit here is flying kick, tbh for everything that allows you to full attack and move should be not allowed for a player imo.
He has 7 attacks at his maximum bonus, 2 at -5 (elbow strike) and 1 at -10.how is he reliably triggering medusa?
I already nerfed him by saying that the flying kick doesn't count toward the jabbing stack. Last time I nerfed him by saying that he can't flying kick while flying for it suppose that you have a surface to push.These kinds of solutions make me cringe, it’s kind of half deliberately being obtuse with the rules are also changing how a players character functions mid game
In a past campaign where I had similar problems (a bolt ace with crit 17-20/X4 and insane luck) I resorted to spam extra HD and abundance of advanced templates. It didn't resort to anything if not to frustrate the weaker characters.(/QOUTE]
On its own, one character being really good at killing things is t a problem, some classes are really good at killing things.
That being a problem sounds more like a symptom of a wider issue to me.
[QUOTE)
I highly disagree with the assumption that every melee character should be able to full round attack every turn.having a pounce like ability doesn’t mean full attacking every turn.
Almost all pounce abilities have pretty meagre range and require a straight line un-impeded by terrain or other allies/enemies.
Most martial not having this is part of the reason they are widely weaker than archers and casters.
A caster can still move and cast there spell, which will almost invariably be better than a martial moving and making one attack at full BAB.
Archers can full attack most turns(more often than pouncing characters). It’s only melee...
Whoops don’t know what happened there.
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At the end of the day, the best solution here is to pull the player aside and say:
"Hey the other players are having less fun because your character is too good at killing things. Would you mind holding back?"
The player doesn't need to spend ki every round or use boots of haste every round. They can make some deliberately sub par choices with their action economy during combat. The easiest way to overcome this issue is to talk to the player about not out shining the other players so much.
Yes, he's built a very optimized character and now shatters combat. Turns out, that's not fun for everyone else at the table. Once he's made aware of the issue, if he's unwilling to change that would be a signal that perhaps they're not a good fit with the rest of the gaming table. Some groups are very optimized, some groups are not. In this case, it sounds like you have an optimized player and the rest of the group isn't. That's the real problem.
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My point remains, talk to the player about this issue.
You're not going to find a game mechanic to "nerf" the PC, and even if you did it would be more like retaliation. That's not the route you want to go.
Talk to the player, and ask them to be more in line with the rest of the party. Often, out of game solutions are the best solutions, because the problem that seems like an in game problem is really an out of game problem. IN this case the other characters do less damage. Why is that a problem? Because the other players (not characters) feel left out. That's an out of game problem.
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My 2 cents:
Never punish players for being good at something. Instead, look at the other players, what they are good at, and design some encounters to showcase their skills. If every encounter is mash the baddies, then the guys who mash the best will always have the floor.
PCs should have their strengths tested from time to time, this makes them feel awesome and lets them do what they are best at. They should also have their weaknesses tested from time to time, otherwise they aren't weaknesses.
That aside, if you do want to punish them, throw in an encounter with a flowing monk. Causing the power attacking fools to hit each other is good for some laughs at your players expense and sure to get them storming off in a huff every time.
How close to the end of a campaign are you? Is there a chance you can just let the PC's do their fun thing, end the story, and have everyone make new characters to continue the story?
My 2 cents:
Never punish players for being good at something. Instead, look at the other players, what they are good at, and design some encounters to showcase their skills. If every encounter is mash the baddies, then the guys who mash the best will always have the floor.PCs should have their strengths tested from time to time, this makes them feel awesome and lets them do what they are best at. They should also have their weaknesses tested from time to time, otherwise they aren't weaknesses.
That aside, if you do want to punish them, throw in an encounter with a flowing monk. Causing the power attacking fools to hit each other is good for some laughs at your players expense and sure to get them storming off in a huff every time.
Intend to agree if there is a problem in the campaign my very last resort ever would be change how a character who is following the rules works.
Before then I’d like at different types of challenge
Better thought out encounters
More diverse monsters possibly with templates
Wealth by level
And talking to the player in real life about a solution.
Would you be able to post his build so we can do an audit? He's doing A LOT of damage per round, and I can't help but think he must have made a mistake while building his monk. Or perhaps the macro he built for his phone is faulty.
If his build is kosher, then my next suggestion is to buff the other players. Offer them a free rebuild in order to match his optimization. Ask the monk player to help them optimize their builds! He seems fairly good at it. If they're not interested, then they may need to accept that he built his character better.
Finally, and as others have said, have an out of game conversation with him. If his level of optimization is making him a killjoy, kindly and politely point it out in a non accusatory way. Ask him to help you out by lowering the power of his characters.
My 2 cents:
Never punish players for being good at something. Instead, look at the other players, what they are good at, and design some encounters to showcase their skills. If every encounter is mash the baddies, then the guys who mash the best will always have the floor.PCs should have their strengths tested from time to time, this makes them feel awesome and lets them do what they are best at. They should also have their weaknesses tested from time to time, otherwise they aren't weaknesses.
That aside, if you do want to punish them, throw in an encounter with a flowing monk. Causing the power attacking fools to hit each other is good for some laughs at your players expense and sure to get them storming off in a huff every time.
I agree with this.
Also, the balance to martial character is using cover, concealment, and environmental hazards. Also, look into conditions like Nauseated, Blinded, and Exhausted.
Also, use combat maneuvers and reach. Granted, he's a monk, so his CMD should be fairly high, but certain monsters specialize in certain maneuvers.
No I don't think you're missing anything bob
And that would be DPR optimised to the absolute edge of reason and it would definitely be a nova.
I think something is going wrong. Part of why I kind of gave up on this thread