I believe both of the creatures should be squeezing at that point. Thus the spell completes, applying penalties to invisible target and fighter. We had a similar incident recently with an enlarge person, and an invisible enemy in his way, and nowhere to shunt that was a free space, so thats what we decided on. I have no actual rules quote for this, but it seems to be the most reasonable solution.
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Technically the summon spells don't say the creature needs to arrive in an unoccupied space, so in this case I think the arrival would just happen. The summoned creature "can't" end its turn in an occupied square though, so that needs to get adjudicated at that time. During it's turn I think Evilserran is reasonable to apply the squeezing penalties.
Since it’s not covered by the rules, you’re in house rules territory. My assumption would be for the summoner creature to be shunted to the nearest open space, as happens with most teleports.
I agree with Melkiador, I don't think it's covered by the rules.
As a GM I would rule that it appears in the nearest available open space that can support the creatures size that isn't occupied.
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Personally I would move the invisible fighter to the nearest free space.
No rules justification for it, but it makes sense to me, and would keep the PCs unaware of the invisibility.
I’d probably require a reflex save for the invisible creature to get out of the way. Again, that’s just house rules since there are no real rules.
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Since it’s not covered by the rules, you’re in house rules territory. My assumption would be for the summoner creature to be shunted to the nearest open space, as happens with most teleports.
from the magic chapter, on the conjeratin school spells:
"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."my english isn't the best( it's a 2nd language) but doesn't 'open location' mean that it doesn't have anything (significat) in it? what does it matter if it was an invisible or not. the space is NOT open. and your trying to summon it where it can't apear.
the way i see it, trying to summon into an area with some1 else in (that he can't be with. remmber if its 3 size categories larger and such rules let it go into such space) you can't summon there. idk what happen to the spell then, i guess it ether fails - like if you would try and summon it into a surface that can't hold it. or you get an 'error' fealing when you try and need to change where your having it pop (and fail if no where in range is ok).
Personally I would move the invisible fighter to the nearest free space.
No rules justification for it, but it makes sense to me, and would keep the PCs unaware of the invisibility.
This is a good ruling. It may not be rules legal and is open to abuse as the GM is essentially revising the location of the enemy based on the players actions. But the GM is not looking to gain an advantage and unless the PCs are metagaming (and there is no indication that they are) they will be unaware of the change. If the players are metagaming and cast the spell in an attempt to reveal the fighter then the GM has dealt with the situation well by both allowing the spell and keeping the fighter hidden.
Honestly, I'd just make the spell fail and tell the caster that there was something unseen in the square that prevented the spell from working and prompt a Perception and Spellcraft Check.
They lose the spell, **Sad Trombone** oh well, things are ALWAYS supposed to turn out the way the party wants.
I think this is a fair way to handle it. Since, unless you give the invisible creature free movement the characters will know something is up anyway. I don't think the creature should get free movement since you don't get free movement even when you're doing something like dodging a fireball.
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Since it’s not covered by the rules, you’re in house rules territory. My assumption would be for the summoner creature to be shunted to the nearest open space, as happens with most teleports.from the magic chapter, on the conjeratin school spells:
"A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it."my english isn't the best( it's a 2nd language) but doesn't 'open location' mean that it doesn't have anything (significat) in it? what does it matter if it was an invisible or not. the space is NOT open. and your trying to summon it where it can't apear.
the way i see it, trying to summon into an area with some1 else in (that he can't be with. remmber if its 3 size categories larger and such rules let it go into such space) you can't summon there. idk what happen to the spell then, i guess it ether fails - like if you would try and summon it into a surface that can't hold it. or you get an 'error' fealing when you try and need to change where your having it pop (and fail if no where in range is ok).
This is the correct answer. The spell would fail.
Personally, I think I fall in to the 'Move the invisible creature' camp ... but for an additional differing reason.
MOST (standard) summon spells are a Full Round Action, ie, more than long enough for the invisible creature to GTFO. Perhaps even to attack the Caster, and interupt the spell.
Personally, I think I fall in to the 'Move the invisible creature' camp ... but for an additional differing reason.
MOST (standard) summon spells are a Full Round Action, ie, more than long enough for the invisible creature to GTFO. Perhaps even to attack the Caster, and interupt the spell.
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
The caster doesn't select a position until the full round action is over, so there really isn't time to get out of the way.
Having the spell fail may be a strict RAW interpretation - which might be the right answer for a rules forum but seems like a bad interpretation in that the consequences are bad. So now invisible creatures prevent summoning? So I can fill my lair with invisible skeletons and no summoning can happen? And more likely, that'll be the last time my group of pc's ever goes anywhere without at least one of the pc's having See Invisibility. Or I'll have them trying to figure out how to use Invisibility to prevent NPC's from summoning. Seems simpler and less consequential to shunt the summoned creature to the nearest open space or failing having one available squeeze in a smaller space if needed. Shunting to nearby space also prevents player squawk which is sure to happen if a I negate a spellcaster's action for a round, especially one he spent a full round action on.
Though "secretly" moving the invisible fighter is also an elegant answer.
And more likely, that'll be the last time my group of pc's ever goes anywhere without at least one of the pc's having See Invisibility.
I could see the group having at least one player investing in an ioun wyrd familiar if this became a common ruling.
That's a huge bucket of worms if they use one of those to overcompensate.
Having the spell fail may be a strict RAW interpretation - which might be the right answer for a rules forum but seems like a bad interpretation in that the consequences are bad. So now invisible creatures prevent summoning? So I can fill my lair with invisible skeletons and no summoning can happen? And more likely, that'll be the last time my group of pc's ever goes anywhere without at least one of the pc's having See Invisibility. Or I'll have them trying to figure out how to use Invisibility to prevent NPC's from summoning. Seems simpler and less consequential to shunt the summoned creature to the nearest open space or failing having one available squeeze in a smaller space if needed. Shunting to nearby space also prevents player squawk which is sure to happen if a I negate a spellcaster's action for a round, especially one he spent a full round action on.
Though "secretly" moving the invisible fighter is also an elegant answer.
creatures can share space if they are 3 size categories difrent from each other. unless thay specificly call out to take the whole area they are in (like j-cubes). so very small summons or big enough can still be used, even if you fill the place up with skellies. (which most probebly won't be controlled as there is a hd limit.)
also since the last details of the spell happen when it is done. id let you summon a difrent thing that would be able to get in there. as in when you end casting you get a list of things you can summon. and the ones that can't be used where you want them are unavilable, without tellin you why.if the caster insist on tryin to brin one of the unavialbe then ill fail his spell. but again that is my rulling. raw as i mantioned should just fail the spell.
So now invisible creatures prevent summoning?Just as much as trying to summon something into a non-invisible creature's space would, and always has.
I'd say that part is questionable though.
It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
That could be interpreted to mean the creature must appear in the nearest suitable location rather than the spell automatically fails if the targeted space isn't actually open.
Look, if you cast a fireball on a group of monsters you see and it turns out to be a wasted action and spell slot because they're illusory (and you didn't know it), there's not much difference from this case. You picked an invalid target because you lacked some knowledge of the facts of the situation. Move on.
That could be interpreted to mean the creature must appear in the nearest suitable location ...It could be interpreted that way, but there's no indication that that is the usual method of placement for these spells. There's a very good track record of spells actually saying they do this in certain circumstances.
Those spells mostly have the same language as they did in 3.0. But the text about open spaces was tacked on to 3.5, because people were summoning whales on top of people’s heads.
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So I can fill my lair with invisible skeletons and no summoning can happen?
Sure, why not? You can do that with regular, visible skeletons as well.
And more likely, that'll be the last time my group of pc's ever goes anywhere without at least one of the pc's having See Invisibility.
Then your PCs are learning. : D
Or I'll have them trying to figure out how to use Invisibility to prevent NPC's from summoning.
See above.
Additionally, invisible undetected characters can also give flanking bonus, so I don't see the reason why they shouln't block summons as well.
What's been the answer or ruling in the past if a creature tries to move or even Charge into or through a square occupied by an invisible creature?
I believe the move or charge is stopped in the last open square on their path. With a charge, I think they are allowed to attack what they hit, but I don't know if they keep their charging bonus.
/cevah