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I've seen an odd number of players accepting (or even proud) of how little direct contribution their envoys make to combat.
...Why?
First off, the indirect contribution is't that great. There;s the opportunity cost of your envoy being there as opposed to a beat stick , or at the very least opposed to an operative with comparable skill bonuses, a comparable accuracy boost (flat footed), and better direct damage (from trick attack).
Lets say you have a party of 6. There's 5 other members that all primarily combat through hitting things (pretty much your best case scenario). Each +1 to hit is a 5% damage boost per other person in the party, so 25% per plus in an ideal setup. (the damage helps a little bit too but it doesn't scale very well). You'd need a +3 or +4 bonus to break even on the opporunity cost: IF everyone in the party always swings at things, AND your bonus is always up. (It's not. Sometimes people beat you in initiative (they should delay unless there's an enemy in between your inits), sometimes the guy with get em dies.
You also lose out the more your party doesn't use attacks: spells, grenades (the square has an ac of 5). If you take the talent to apply the bonus to a drone it will be worth a lil more Obviously very variable depending on your party.
Even more importantly...Why not be good in combat? And by that in starfinder I mean get a big unwieldy weapon, a long arm or better yet, a Heavy weapon? and a dex bonus
The effectiveness of get em is baked into the class. It's not like you can spend feats to be a better envoy. Skill focus in skills you care about is absolutely terrible (the consolation prize when you hit ninth level is worth a bit more than a +1, once per day, on a skill check, called in advance, under a blue moon)
Between the expertise dice, the reroll on skills you really like, and the back door diminishing returns on the point buy, there's little if any reason to go all in on your charisma to the point of ignoring a hit stat.
Dipping soldier (blitz if melee and sharpshooter if ranged) and spending 1 feat for versatile specialization or just spending 2-3 feats going to long arms/ heavy weapons cost you almost nothing in terms of your ability to help your party. But it greatly increases your damage output and your ability to use your own buffs. Improved Get em not only doesn't compete with any other hit bonus in the game, it's essentially a free action to use along with a heavy weapon.
Get your princess leia on. Grab the big gun and go to town on some stormtroopers. Standing in the back and singing is two edditions ago. Embrace the future.
My problem with inspiring Boost: since i know it will come up.
Inspiring boost really only matters if it results in one of the following.
-It keeps you from having to rest and spend a resolve after combat
-It keeps you out of hitpoints
-It keeps you from dropping
-It keeps you from dying from a really big hit
1-It keeps you from having to rest and spend a resolve after combat
This almost never happens if you think about it. People that you've healed up are almost certain to be the ones that expect to get hit again. They need to rest up again even if you healed them up to full, because if they don't you can't inspiring boost them again.
Hit points are an easy matter of popping a few very cheap healing serums. If you need to heal someone in combat a highly overlooked option is to run up to the tank with a gem of mystic cure 1 in a level 4 spell storing weapon and transfer all of your HP to them.
Someone would have dropped without it is a legitimate problem, especially if its your only meat shiel...erm. Front liner. The problem is that damage scales MUCH faster than your inspiring boost. Dropping the bad guy a round sooner by hitting them has a better chance of keeping someone up.
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Really long posts for a really long answer.
First, it's roleplaying game, not video game. The character you want to play is as important as the mechanics being it. Currently, there are no Charisma-based classes but Envoy. So, if you want to play an 18 Charisma character because you like to chat, you play an Envoy. Then, you try to find a mechanical way to build it.
Hence the spoony bards.
Also, in general, players have 50/50 chances to hit on an attack, so +1 is 10% more damage, not 5%.
I see 4 Envoy builds:
- The range one
- The melee one
- The disrupting one
- The pure support
The range one uses Improved Get'Em or Clever Attack as standard actions, shooting with longarms or heavy weapons at the same time. In general, he has high Dexterity, honorable to high Charisma and nothing else.
Pros:
- Strong right from level 1. You don't need anything but a good weapon to be efficient.
- Very easy to level up, certainly the easiest build.
- Quite easy to play. You will contribute always.
Cons:
- Mobility. Because of cover and melee opponents getting next to you, you'll need to move. And movement hinders your contribution by a lot.
- Your maximum contribution is limited. You'll never really shine.
The melee one uses Improved Get'Em or Clever Attack as standard actions, hitting with advanced melee weapons at the same time. In general, he has maxed Strength. And a little bit of Charisma, Dexterity and Constitution.
Pros:
- Maximum contribution to the party. Melee damage + Envoy Improvisation + a bit of tanking, you're the combat jack of all trades.
Cons:
- Very hard to build properly. You need a lot of feats, a lot of equipment (good armor and good weapon), a lot of attributes (Charisma, Strength, Dexterity, Constitution). In general, you'll be multiclassed Soldier/Envoy, and as such won't level other Envoy class features to their maximum.
- If you are the only melee character in your party, you'll be blowned to pieces if you meet a bit of resistance. Even with multiple melee characters, you'll certainly be the squishiest one.
The disrupting one focuses on buffing and tanking. He puts himself in the heat of battle with a reach weapon, searching for the highest possible contribution besides damage. He needs a little bit of Charisma, Strength, Constitution and Dexterity, but can focus on whatever attribute.
Pros:
- Improved Get'Em + Clever Attack + Coordinated Shot + Menacing Fusion. He can reach +5/+6, increasing the party damage by a lot.
- High Disruption. 10-15 feet reach on a quite tanky character (you focus on armor and defensive feats) makes it a pain for enemies.
Cons:
- You don't deal much damage without your teammates.
- Dislikes fighting in the open.
The pure support focuses on helping his comrades. He stays out of battle, giving bonuses and healing every round. He can be built the way you want but is in general maxed in Charisma.
Pros:
- Very easy to play and build. You don't need to move, you just use your improvisations in the most optimized way.
- Best Envoy build if you're at least 2 levels under the average party level. Also very good if you are in a party of 7+ characters (the more the better for this build).
- Very good in tight spaces as you just need line of sight to your teammates.
Cons:
- Boring in combat.
- You don't deal damage at all so you can't be alone.
- Very slow to level and very hard to play properly. Before high levels, you'll have a few Improvisations and you'll need to get the most out of them. In small groups, you're a liability, as you won't help much.
So, 2 of these builds can be built with maxed Charisma, and be spoony bards. Hence, only the last one is a spoony bard to me.
I quite agree that the full support build is lacking in combat before high levels or strange situations (very big party, underleveled).
And Inspiring Boost is only useful if it prevents from dropping. At low level, Serums of Healing being expensive, it's also a bit useful to avoid losing hit points. But as soon as level 5, you don't care much. At medium to high levels hit points are easier to heal than stamina points.
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I think it's mostly because people see a 3/4 BAB class with charisma as a key ability and only small arm and basic melee proficiency.
The basic chassis suggests that you're a support character who buffs the beatsticks and plinks away..
It doesn't suggest picking up a big slow firing gun and buffing and doing damage like your operative friend is.
I'd guess it's a lot like the first time someone looks at technomancer, thinking max int is the way to go, until they start looking at their magic hacks and realizing there's a lot more to this class. It can be built very differently from a max int caster. The envoy's tricks that make it a good heavy weapon build don't stand out nearly as well.
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Because not everything is about combat. I absolutely love my Halfling Envoy, and she does barely anything in combat related to damaging enemies. But she's great at healing Stamina damage and letting the other party members get in hits.
I have more fun with her talking her way out of things, getting better deals, and negotiating big pay-days. Ya know. the ROLE-PLAY aspect of ROLE-PLAYING GAMES.
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Currently, there are no Charisma-based classes but Envoy. So, if you want to play an 18 Charisma character because you like to chat, you play an Envoy. Then, you try to find a mechanical way to build it.
I'd just like to take a second and point at the Solarian.
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I'd just like to take a second and point at the Solarian.
True. Mystics also can have high Charisma, depending on their connection (Overlord ones come to mind).
But they are secondary attributes. Building a Solarian with Charisma as main attribute would be a bit hard (I don't say it's impossible, but it's clearly non conventional).
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And Inspiring Boost is only useful if it prevents from dropping. At low level, Serums of Healing being expensive, it's also a bit useful to avoid losing hit points. But as soon as level 5, you don't care much. At medium to high levels hit points are easier to heal than stamina points.
Just going to point out here that, in Society play, your income (and timetable) is pretty limited, and even at higher levels one is reluctant to buy a lot of healing serums, so avoiding hit point damage is more important. My Inspiring Boosts have helped the flow of the game considerably (on top of saving people from going down now and then).
Plus, appropriately, Inspiring Boost is also a real-world morale bonus for players. Makes them feel good to get that buffer back.
Dot
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While I agree that envoys should have no qualms with picking up a weapon, longarm feat, and doing their part, you're definitely underselling the envoy's contribution if they choose to dedicate their standard action to something other than attacking.
First, assuming 4 martially inclined allies with 70% accuracy with their normal attacks, Get 'em's contribution to the fight is more than 5% of their damage. Looking at four martial teammates full attacking...
4 PCs x 0.5 Chance to hit x Base damage x 2 attacks/rd = 4 x Base damage
4 x 0.55 x Base damage x 2 = 4.4 x Base damage
4.4/4 = 10% higher overall damage per round per person. Effectively, your envoy's DPR is 40% of the average teammate.
If you consider improved get 'em and clever feint:
4 x 0.5 x Base damage x 2 = 4 x Base damage
4 x 0.7 x Base damage x 2 = 5.6 x Base damage
5.6/4 = 40% higher overall damage per round. Your effective contribution is 160% of your average ally and you never even picked up a weapon.
----
You can build for weapon use to get even more effective damage contribution. But an envoy's poor BAB and poor proficiency support means that you spend a lot of character building resources (and a lot of credits) to provide pretty mediocre damage output. Even with an unwieldy heavy weapon (like the Ice Launcher), a DEX focused envoy that upgrades weapons at every opportunity deals a progressively smaller amount of damage as a proportion of what your allies can put out.
At 4th level, your damage is 50% of what the Soldier is putting out on a full attack. By 11th level, that's down to 40%, and by 17th, it's down to 30%. The effect on the party's total damage per round at 11th level is:
Sans imp get 'em, clever attack:
4.4 x Base damage
With imp get 'em, clever attack:
6.15 x Base damage
Your DPR contribution is 215% of your average ally (34% higher than the weaponless envoy). But at the cost of buying new weapons on a regular basis, getting proficiencies, dedicating feats, and so on. It's not as big of a difference as you might expect! The large majority of the damage output you're contributing in combat is still coming from your improvisations rather than from your weapon attack.
---
I think it's perfectly reasonable to give up some damage and instead use the feats and credits freed up to focus on utility and versatility.
While I agree that envoys should have no qualms with picking up a weapon, longarm feat, and doing their part, you're definitely underselling the envoy's contribution if they choose to dedicate their standard action to something other than attacking.
I agree with you even if I have to show some flaws in your calculation.
First, Clever Feint only works on one enemy, and Improved Get'Em works on one enemy unless you pay for a RP.Your allies will have hard time focusing the same enemy. Also, if they do, chances are great for the enemy to drop before having taken a full attack from everyone.
So, your calculation works only on solo monsters.
Second, having a high Charisma increases the chances for Clever Feint to work (10% more chance if you have Charisma as first attribute instead of secondary attribute, with or without reroll), so you need to spend less RPs on Clever Feint. It also increases your number of RPs, double bonus.
RPs are extremely important, as they allow you to make multi target buffs. Improved Get'Em, without RP, is half of its value (unless solo monster, once again).
There are also very strong Improvisations needing RP (Draw Fire comes to mind).
To shoot at a target, you'll sometimes need to move (either because you are threatened or because your target has cover), and will reduce the bonuses you give because of that. Also, you need to shoot the target you give bonuses on, so you limit a bit your bonuses choices by specializing in weapons.
I clearly consider the range build to be the best one at low level. Prior to level 6, it clearly shines. But at level 12 and above, its damage contribution becomes very low, and the opportunity cost of maximizing it less and less interesting. I don't think it's that good of a build at high level.
The pure support focuses on helping his comrades. He stays out of battle, giving bonuses and healing every round. He can be built the way you want but is in general maxed in Charisma.
So what buff or ability does this guy bring that the other two don't? Clever attack or improved get em are part of an attack, so there's no opportunity cost as far as action economy goes to also shooting someone in the face (My envoy is a gym teacher and carries around a zamboni bigger than she is)
Being able to bluff slightly more often really doesn't enter into it. Anyone built around bluffing is going to have the ability to roll the bluff check twice, which puts a bit of a diminishing return on the required +s to bluff (since a reroll is worth more +s the closer you are to 5050) The extreme +s also matter a little less when you need a -4 on a d20 to fail...
To shoot at a target, you'll sometimes need to move (either because you are threatened or because your target has cover), and will reduce the bonuses you give because of that. Also, you need to shoot the target you give bonuses on, so you limit a bit your bonuses choices by specializing in weapons.
A dip in sharpshooter soldier (see.. not EVERY character should dip blitz soldier) will net you almost an effective +2 to hit, and the ability to use dex instead of charisma for your resolve. It makes standing still and using improved get em plus then your choice of improved hurry or the clever feint feat a lot more workable.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to give up some damage and instead use the feats and credits freed up to focus on utility and versatility.
Just upgrade your armor once, ever, to the Estex Suit 1 and you'll have more than enough credits for the biggest gun you can get at your level.
As to versatility feats, what else are you going to spend your feats on?
Fast talk for the occasional surprise round, and improved demoralize, so you can help your casty friend, as well as your martial friends?
Fast talk for the occasional surprise round
I really don't like that feat for a few reasons.
1) how vague it is. You should be able to bluff your way into some surprise rounds without it (like pretending to strike up a conversation with someone in a market then pulling a gun on him) and the feat isn't supposed to be a surprise round every time either. So.. when is this feat supposed to be applicable where a bluff check isn't or or not be applicable at all?
2) Your party needs to be prepared and set up to take advantage of the surprise round. Bad guys get a lot of mileage out of surprise rounds because they're in position and holding the right weapon. When your envoy walks around the corner "Hello, would you like to buy an abadar prime subscription?" usually the rest of the party can only move up and then combat starts: they can't charge, run around and trick attack, etc.
As a character that can be useful or not. As a player its a turn of combat where i really don't get to do much.
(adventure with a skittermander who can hold a sword a laser cannon and an abadar prime case?)
and improved demoralize, so you can help your casty friend, as well as your martial friends?
Alright, 3 searches can't find that exact feat.
Do you mean antagonize? Putting to hit penalties on the baddies seems kind of pointless with the amount of to hit they're walking around with (before you run into the same problems as inspiring boost) especially for anything other than a fu
EDIT: AHHH its in signal of screams.
I said occasional surprise round because fast talk absolutely isn't something that can be used all the time. And o am certainly not going to claim that when it works isn't going to vary significantly depending on your gm. But there are a number of characters that can take advantage of a surprise round, even if they don't have weapons in hand, like spellcasters, or anyone with a standard action charge ability, since they can draw as part of that charge. Or someone with quickdraw and grenades or other thrown weapons. It isn't the Greatest Feat In The World That All Envoys must take, but I have had players use it well, and it's an option for a utility feat.
EDIT: As for using normal bluffing skills and preplanning to try to suckered someone into a surprise round, that's something that you should be able to attempt anyway, subject to circumstances, but it isn't what the feat is for. The feat is only for when the other side would be the ones starting hostilities.
Regarding accuracy debuffs, yes NPCs are very accurate, and you aren't going to push them anywhere near guaranteed miss territory. That being said, demoralizing someone as a move action and then tagging them with a shot from a cruel weapon as part of your choice of improved get em or clever attack is still significant, between the -4 to hit, -4 to damage (if you have grim trophies) and -4 to all saves.
(adventure with a skittermander who can hold a sword a laser cannon and an abadar prime case?)
As a bonus, skittermanders are +DEX/CHA, and can have an 18/16 starting spread. Also no penalty to strength, so heavy weapons are easier to qualify for.
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Because not everything is about combat. I absolutely love my Halfling Envoy, and she does barely anything in combat related to damaging enemies. But she's great at healing Stamina damage and letting the other party members get in hits.
I have more fun with her talking her way out of things, getting better deals, and negotiating big pay-days. Ya know. the ROLE-PLAY aspect of ROLE-PLAYING GAMES.
This is textbook stormwind fallacy.
The other question this raises for me is, if people really want the maximum boost for their party's accuracy against a marked target, and not their own damage, why don't I ever see envoys with net proficiency?
I said occasional surprise round because fast talk absolutely isn't something that can be used all the time. And o am certainly not going to claim that when it works isn't going to vary significantly depending on your gm.
It's not how useful the feat is. It's how much it runs up the DMs bar tab and or asprin bill.
If it worked 1 time in 4 or 1 time in 6 or something we could figure out how good the feat is and work through it's other problems.
It's a very... Ultimate intrigue esque feat. It's a feat for something somebody without the feat should be able to do sometimes (bluff their way into a surprise round) that puts a game mechanic requirement on doing that thing without providing any ensuing mechanical clarity.
But there are a number of characters that can take advantage of a surprise round, even if they don't have weapons in hand, like spellcasters, or anyone with a standard action charge ability, since they can draw as part of that charge.
Your typical surprise round ambushers have themselves hidden, they see one member of a party, and all shoot them. All the ambushers get to go.
The nature of the game means that when you're probably opening a door, or turning a corner, etc. Which means the envoy is in front doing their thing, the person behind them has a corner for line of effect but no charge lane, and everyone behind them has a wall between them and the fight.
If I want to cast haste it's great. If i want to cast mindblast it's problematic. If i want to cast a summons I can't.
Regarding accuracy debuffs, yes NPCs are very accurate, and you aren't going to push them anywhere near guaranteed miss territory.
I also don't think you're going to push them out of a catagory that matters (rest/don't rest, Calden cayden brand healing potions yes/no, drop/don't drop)
That being said, demoralizing someone as a move action and then tagging them with a shot from a cruel weapon as part of your choice of improved get em or clever attack is still significant, between the -4 to hit, -4 to damage (if you have grim trophies) and -4 to all saves.
How do you get -4 to saves?
-2 for shaken, -2 for sickened when you shoot them with a cruel weapon.
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People have seemed pretty on the nose with things thus far. I was going to go provocative just like my Envoy does and say "please consult my finger located between first and third".
I'm a full Cha, melee Envoy without Get 'Em or Inspiring Boost, and no combat feats outside of Improved Unarmed Strike. Bad character? Well considering I'm pretty much second most effective in combat (even having solo'd a boss encounter through sheer dumb luck), and probably the person at the table who has the most fun, I'd say not.
I have max Intimidate, Diplomacy, Computers, Engineering, Piloting, you name it. Three Skill Focuses because hey, when you can roll a 1 to Aid another, but use Lend Expertise to give someone else with a higher Int your +1d6+1 to Engineering and still get a +3 for yourself? Or else if you really need to succeed a Diplomacy, drop the die, but still have a +3 bonus?
Oh, and did I mention I'm archtyped as a Skyfire Centurion? Our hammer fist Vesk takes good advantage at our current level from my combat feat choice. And I have a whopping one point in the Medicine skill that not only will let me first aid as a move action, but again, hey Mystic, want my Medicine Expertise die?
Like oh no, I don't do as much damage as the Vesk or the Operative. The Shaken condition which I can give as a move action with Quick Dispiriting Taunt, and the Cruel fusion on my sword mean I Sicken, and that has saved the ass of our teammates on more than one occasion, and forgoing heavy armor and just taking an Electrostatic Field to mean I can run around provoking AoOs and eating hits that deal damage back?
Yeah, I don't do the optimal Envoy stuff. Yeah, my to hit is fairly low compared to my max combat stat allies. Screw the numbers though, I do more on the battlefield than most of them combined, and as I level will just get more long-term tools to power my allies and continue being a menace myself. Our GM knows he has to focus me over the soldier, because as hard as he can hit, if I get into the right place, Coordinated Shot and my Combat Bond means I'm giving +5 minimum to my ally of choice so long as I've still got resolve. And max Cha I have a boatload of it (even though I don't have a personal upgrade for it yet).
Not to mention what I can do in a Starship. Combat Bond from Centurion is huge, and Orders to our Pilot and Engineer (Mechanic with the unique actions so better me give him two than to do it myself, which I can also do if his higher Dex wants to get on a gun). I can literally do every role effectively.
The Envoy is an amazing class in hands that don't reduce it to numbers and go along the grain. It has really cool synergy with a lot of "sub optimal" stuff. Sky Jockey, Coordinated Shot with Jump Jets and the Electrostatic Field alone makes anyone a combat threat. The Envoy's late action economy with taunts, boosts, and others make the combo a menace.
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It's not that an 18 CHA envoy is suboptimal. It's that a 14 is enough for an envoy to do it's job as an envoy just like a solarian or a shooty spellcaster, why isn't that a more common build?
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How important non combat is depends more on the game you run than the system you run it in.
I would agree that some real mistakes were made with the operative, though, in giving int+10 skill ranks, instead of int+8, and in making operative's edge apply to everything, instead of a couple of skills.
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Non combat is not role playing.
A high diplomacy score is not role playing
A high charisma score is not role playing.
Role playing is role playing. That is more or less orthogonal to your optimization. They might play off of each other, but you do not make your role playing better just by making your roll playing worse.
At 4th level, your damage is 50% of what the Soldier is putting out on a full attack.
By 11th level, that's down to 40%, and by 17th, it's down to 30%. The effect on the party's total damage per round at 11th level is:
Okay, so what do you lose in terms Boosting your parties damage by being able to damage yourself?
People are treating this like a zero sum game and it's absolutely not. The resources are coming out of two almost entirely different pools. Envoy abilities won't help you damage and feats won't help your envoy abilities all that much
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This thread is a perfect example of why I feel so unwelcome in Starfinder Society (and, to some extent, Pathfinder Society). It's not about playing the character you want to play, it's about your fellow players bullying you for not playing the combat-optimized (and usually cookie-cutter) build they mathed out.
This thread is a perfect example of why I feel so unwelcome in Starfinder Society (and, to some extent, Pathfinder Society). It's not about playing the character you want to play, it's about your fellow players bullying you for not playing the combat-optimized (and usually cookie-cutter) build they mathed out.
You're basing that on a number of things that are counterfactual or at least incredibly one sided
it's about your fellow players bullying you for not playing the combat-optimized
I have more fun with her talking her way out of things, getting better deals, and negotiating big pay-days. Ya know. the ROLE-PLAY aspect of ROLE-PLAYING GAMES.
First, it's roleplaying game, not video game
As seen in this thread and in your own posts you are at least as likely to get "bullying" behavior if you look under the hood and concern yourself with your characters effectiveness at all. Munchkin, video gamer, don't know how to role play etc. cookie cutter ad nauseum.
If bullying isn't how you meant it? Consider that that might be true for the other side as well.
(and usually cookie-cutter)
Except the spoony bard IS the cookie cutter envoy. What the tone of what people saying and how you perceive it is subjective, but it is utter nonsense to complain about bullying people into cookie cutter builds in a thread questioning the effectiveness of the cookie cutter build and trying to get people to think about different builds.
A drill seargant, gym teacher, scary mcsteely eyed gunslinger or vesk diplomacy that calls their doshko diplomacy are about as far from cookie cutter as you can get in the current starfinder system.
Something that looks effective but really isn't (I'm looking at YOU divert power to the weapons) is more of a complaint about the system than other peoples characters.
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So you’d turn away people showing up to your table juts because they wanted to play Envoy?
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So you’d turn away people showing up to your table juts because they wanted to play Envoy?
I did not say that
I did not hint that
I did not imply that
I did not say anything that could any way, shape, or form reasonably be interpreted as saying that. Furthermore this is a really weird accusation to make as I've never turned down a game for a character and currently have a PBP with an Envoy in it, and my own Envoy soldier is level 5. (A ysoki gym teacher. She has a Giant bow on her tail and fires a zamboni)
"What's up with the fascination with using a pistol on the talky talk guy, your character is not defined by one gun----->something happens-------> Why are you banning envoys from your tables.
I don't think a conversation is possible if you randomly assign people positions they don't hold and aren't even close to expressing.
Offering no opinion on the state of the Envoy but rather addressing the question as to why people defend it and are even proud of it;
There will always be some segment of a fan/player base that believes the way things are at launch is the intended state of things, and that intended state needs to be preserved.
Some people will disagree with the assessment on the Envoy and say it's fine. Others will say it fulfills it's role and that it's bonuses in one area compensate for it's weaknesses in another. Some will agree with the assessment that the Envoy is subpar but believe that it's supposed to be. Some will be fine with tweaks to the envoy so long as the other classes are also tweaked to keep the relative power balance the same.
General through-line here is preservation of the status quo. Some people look at it as a good thing. Some people look at change as a bad thing. On the Pathfinder forums I've seen people decry the rogue, the fighter, the warpriest, and the monk as terrible classes in one breath and then rebuke any suggestions on improving them in the next, at once suggesting that the classes are rubbish and that they deserve to be rubbish and that it is to the benefit of the game for them to be rubbish. All while proponents of said classes argued that they were fine and didn't need any fixing.
There will always be people who thinks things should stay the way they are because that's the way they are. They believe changing things will cause unforeseeable ripple effects that could ruin the game, or simply think that changing things violates the spirit of the game.
Offering no opinion on the state of the Envoy but rather addressing the question as to why people defend it and are even proud of it;
Two things,
1) I think the envoy works fairly well mechanically IF you leave the spoony bard paradigm behind. The class as presented is "supposed" to use pistols. Switch to something else and you're functional. The chained rogue and monk didn't really have that option.
2) I won't say that every rogue naysayer was happy to see the unchained rogue, but i think most of us were. On one level the rogue was finally doing what it should have been doing all along. On another level the fact that it added a lot of features and did not suddenly overpower all the other classes vindicated a lot of feelings about where the rogue was powerwise. (I will definitely count myself as a rogue naysayer. )
I don't think the Envoy needs the envoy unchained (until 8th or maybe 12th level. At which point.. yes they really need to do something about that) Because players have the tools they need to make them very effective characters already, it just requires making a few less obvious character choices and tweaking the mold
The Envoy is about three things: Buffing, Skills (Charisma and Intelligence ones) and Healing.
You get the best Buffing skills by maximizing your Envoy level and going melee (to get Coordinated Shot and flanking on top of Clever Feint and Get'Em).
You get the best Skill level by maximizing your Envoy level and having high Charisma and Intelligence score.
You get the best Healing skills by maximizing your Envoy level and having a high Charisma score.
So, your Envoy build fails on all these points. It's clearly a subpar Envoy build. I don't say that it's a subpar build, just a subpar Envoy build.
You try to convince us that your subpar Envoy build is not that subpar and that what he gains is better than what he loses. That's ok, noone is saying your build is bad by itself, just that it's subpar in Envoy stuff and people play Envoy to get Envoy stuff.
You try to convince us that some other Envoy builds are worse than yours. Well, that's ok. The game is not about playing the most optimized classes and builds. It's possible that you're right. It's also highly subjective, I consider that your build is worse, but I know it's just an opinion and not an objective truth.
I also see on this forum a "weapon" mentality. It's not the first time that people try to convince me that I should play a non weaponize class as a weaponize one. Got this discussion about my Mystic when I spoke about Spell Gems, and I now see it on the Envoy. I disagree with this mentality. All of my characters have maxed their main skill at character creation, and none of them had more than a 14 in Dexterity and 11 in Strength. And I like to play my characters, and they fill the role I want them to fill. Sometimes far better than you may think.
I really think you should try non weaponize builds.
I also think you should realize that having a heavy weapon on your Envoy has a "roleplay" impact. Not that it decreases roleplay, but it limits characters. My Envoy is an Android of protocol, highly inspired by C3PO. Clearly, I don't want him to have a big heavy weapon, as it's against the concept.
Currently, I feel there are 2 types of classes in Starfinder. The obvious ones (Operative, Soldier, Technomancer at low level and Solarian once you understand it's not Charisma based but Strength based). These classes are extremely easy to build and play.
And there are less obvious ones: Mystic, Mechanic, Technomancer at high level and Envoy. These classes are hard to build and play. For these classes, you can't just build it the obvious way and play it the obvious way without being subpar. But properly built and played, they are as good as the others.
The game is young, and in my opinion, there are tons of builds that haven't currently emerged. From the discussion on this forum, I think people underestimate some builds mostly because they don't know how to play them or haven't seen them in action. But I expect things to slowly change, the more people bring new builds and experiences here.
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So you’d turn away people showing up to your table juts because they wanted to play Envoy?I did not hint that
I did not imply that
This thread is sadly giving credence otherwise.
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This thread is sadly giving credence otherwise.So you’d turn away people showing up to your table juts because they wanted to play Envoy?I did not hint that
I did not imply that
This is still objectively false. If you need to give random passive aggressive insults and can t do better with me as your target you really need another line of attack.
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You, a 5 Star GM, made a public thread with the title "The Envoy, Whats with all the spoony bards?" and then went on to post your umbrage with characters that focus on social/buffing rather than your preference for combat specced optimization.
This lends credence to the worry that social characters would not be welcome at your tables.
The only time I create characters purposely subpar in combat is when rolling support GM-PCs who go out of their way not to overshadow regular PCs. The boring Inspiring Boost comes out almost every combat, but I got some surprisingly mileage out of the Quick Quaff and the Bedside Manner improvisations and the Surgeon expertise talent.
That said I also had heavy weapons proficiency and an explode weapon with a bayonet (to also help with flanking). No reason in being completely useless.
--
To the point of this topic, I believe people roll nerfed envoys so they can be freed from the "obligation" of contributing to combat. If their character is a screwball with only support abilities and odd choices in skills and whatnot, they believe the rest of the party won't expect much out of them, so they can be wonky in the battlefield and nobody will mind. Little do they know.
This is textbook stormwind fallacy.
Haha, don't fall for such cheap bait...
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You, a 5 Star GM, made a public thread with the title "The Envoy, Whats with all the spoony bards?" and then went on to post your umbrage with characters that focus on social/buffing rather than your preference for combat specced optimization.
That is both false,does not follow, and is observably wrong
The entire point of my post is that combat optimization will cost you little to nothing of your ability to so be a social character and to buff your allies. So little that there's almost no reason NOT to do it. You can charm the pants off of the guard and THEN blow a giant hole in robot. Why pick?
I would much rather have a clever bluff or ruse than another 946 greataxe crit get past an encounter. My point isn't complaining about the social elements it's the false dichotomy of whether you have the social elements or the combat elements. Root beer or ice cream? Make a float.
Secondly just because I don't think that a build is optimal or even practical doesn't mean that I don't let people who disagree with me play at my tables. That just.. no. How on earth do you get from one of those to the other? I don't like pathfinder two weapon fighting either (pennyslvania length rant about the frequency of full attacking here) that doesn't mean I have a basketball hoop set up with "you must be this optimized to go on this ride". ANd thats why parts of my gnome are still splattered all over bonekeep...
Someone shows up with THEIR character then it's THEIR character. They get to play it. My opinions about about the efficacy of their build are not remotely grounds for not seating someone. A character can be a deeply personal thing and I do not get to make that choice for someone else.
But i still get to wonder what the heck some people are thinking. Because some of this is some really weird logic.
Lastly, no. I am not going to believe you over my own eyes.
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Fully agree, but to be fair, you see the push for optimization in any society style gameplay no matter the system as most society type adventures will focus heavily on combat simply because its reasonable sure that any given society party will be combat capable while its far less certain that all players can do non combat.
I strongly disagree. I've played Living Greyhawk, Living Arcanis, Pathfinder Society and Starfinder Society.
Living Greyhawk was asking for massive combat optimisation, some players facing bullying because of lack of optimisation.For Pathfinder Society and Starfinder Society, it's clearly the opposite. Combats are trivialy easy. The only combat I've ever found hard in Starfinder was the final of Dead Suns part 1, which is not a Starfinder Society module.
Yesterday, I DMed a 4-player module with 3 players, one of them being highly incompetent in strategy, no 4th player iconic because I dislike that and combats were so easy only one player went into HPs.
I've also played one module without combat. I made all the important Diplomacy checks, which were clearly hard ones even for my maximized Envoy.
And there are tons of extremely important checks in Starfinder Society. If your party can't make Computers, Engineering or Diplomacy checks, you may struggle through some modules, even failing some of them. In general, failed non combat situations reduce the gain at the end of the adventure, so you can't just dismiss this part of the game.
There are issues and advantages in Society play, but, even if the focus on combat is important, it's clearly not everything. A party of 5 Soldiers will fail more than half of the adventures and will struggle through the remaining ones.
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The entire point of my post is that combat optimization will cost you little to nothing of your ability to so be a social character and to buff your allies.If it costs so little so it may as well be an afterthought than what is the purpose of this thread?
How on earth do you get from one of those to the other?
Threads like this.
If it costs so little so it may as well be an afterthought than what is the purpose of this thread?
50% Hey there's this whole world badass builds people can do with this class but that people aren't doing anyway because of preconceptions about the class.
40% boredome
5% I might learn something new
Threads like this.
That's not an answer and it's not the thread.
The Envoy is about three things: Buffing, Skills (Charisma and Intelligence ones) and Healing.
All classes in starfinder are partially damaging classes. They all have 3/4 BAB or better and the ability to pick up weapons.
If you arbitrarily take that criteria out of the class of course you'll get the result that anyone that spent anyone doing damage at all is somehow "worse"
You get the best Buffing skills by maximizing your Envoy level and going melee (to get Coordinated Shot and flanking on top of Clever Feint and Get'Em)
The threaten the area with the pike hedgehog envoy is not the spoony bard i'm scratching my head about, but claiming superiority is a bit much.
The hedgevoy needs to move into position more often than the Gunvoy
You're also taking up real estate that your beatsticks might like to land on (do not pass the uplifted bear in the cooridoor. Do not pass go. do not collect 200 credits)
You also run into problems where you're eminently attackable rather than your dedicated meatshields. That can result in them having to scrape you off the floor and or your buffs shutting off until you can duct tape your jaw back on. Investing in strength and con are going to have to come out of somewhere.
Those don't make the the hedgevoy worse than someone shooting from down town, but it does mean that any direct comparison is out the window.
You get the best Skill level by maximizing your Envoy level and having high Charisma and Intelligence score.
You get the best Healing skills by maximizing your Envoy level and having a high Charisma score.
Judging an ability by the binary of "the best/not the best" rather than degrees of how good it is is both arbitrary and texas sharpshooting. Envoys oddly enough don't have a heck of a lot of abilities based on their charisma, and for healing having your charisma secondary drops your healing by very little.
Hiding that behind -its not maxed and worse -your envoy fails because this isn't max- is evading the discussion. Not having it.
I really think you should try non weaponize builds.
That would be my mystic. He's a skill monkey (but like my envoy, didn't see enough advantage to his alleged primary stat and went with something else. Int in his case. He has profession chef and babysitter, works in Fitches daycare, and goes on missions because it's got a lower mortality rate than his dayjob.
I also think you should realize that having a heavy weapon on your Envoy has a "roleplay" impact. Not that it decreases roleplay, but it limits characters. My Envoy is an Android of protocol, highly inspired by C3PO. Clearly, I don't want him...
To do anything. Seriously, the whole series. What did he do.. ever? :)
I can definitely see why SeeThreeO2 wouldn't want to walk into a dinner party with a railgun. Not sure why him going through the devourer cultist ship with one would be a problem. There's some options to have your cake and eat it too though
Intergrated weapons (get your C-3PX going)
Glamered weapons (because there's nothing wrong with a rail gun inherently it's just that it looks bad)
Shoot laser beams out of your eyes
Work out some sort of miniturized heavy weapon like the noisy cricket from men and black or something.
Fully agree, but to be fair, you see the push for optimization in any society style gameplay no matter the system as most society type adventures will focus heavily on combat simply because its reasonable sure that any given society party will be combat capable while its far less certain that all players can do non combat.
You should really look at the discusion on Duskmire accord 9
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Threads like this.That's not an answer and it's not the thread.
Yes it is. Having seen threads like this, multiple times, is why I don't bother with organized play.
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Yes it is. Having seen threads like this, multiple times, is why I don't bother with organized play.
Organized play has rules over 2 things: The adventures you can play and the character progression. Everything else is a matter of DM and players. The impact organized play has on the pleasure you take is just part of your imagination :)
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Yes it is. Having seen threads like this, multiple times, is why I don't bother with organized play.Organized play has rules over 2 things: The adventures you can play and the character progression. Everything else is a matter of DM and players. The impact organized play has on the pleasure you take is just part of your imagination :)
Emphasis mine, I don't avoid organized play because of how it's set up, but by the perception I have of it from the people on these forums who play it.
Ignoring whether or not an envoy should pick up a big weapon and become a shooty character...
I'm still not seeing why a maxed out 18 CHA is the be all, end all preferred stat?
I kind of get it if you're trying to go for the clever attack + improved demoralize line of class abilities. 15+1.5xCR can be a rough target to hit without maxing out CHA.
Envoy is this sort of nice general class that can be built many different ways. CHA looks like the stat to max at first glance, but unlike operatives and DEX, builds not maxing CHA aren't wonky and sub par. Like the mechanic or the solarian, leaving CHA to a secondary stat can be more effective in other ways, without leaving it's primary class features behind.
I think there's a reason the iconic was built with a 14/14/14 DEX/INT/CHA. Subpar perhaps, but it highlights that there is more to the envoy than CHA.