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Let me tell you about my envoy... The starting array for my -701 icon (doctor) envoy* was Str 11, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 14, so I have absolutely no right to talk about the right and wrong ways of building envoys. He's currently one scenario away from level 8, and his current array is Str 17, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 16. Avor Stelek considers himself a proud Akitonian warrior-scientist who relies on his shining intellect to defeat mysteries and his swordplay skills to vanquish any curs encountered.
Basically I wanted skills but didn't want an Operative. I also couldn't decide if I wanted to play a red martian swordfighter more than Ming the Merciless, so I gestalted them into one, and haven't looked back since. For Akiton! For Society! And for Science!**
With 13 skill points per level he has been useful, and can learn a frightening amount of skills at level-ups to fill any holes from other regular teammates. Now that the ability boosts are coming online, he can hold his own in melee. He's still barely adequate at ranged combat, but one can't have everything.
Feats in level order: Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Spellbane, Versatile Specialization, Enhanced Resistance (kinetic).
Envoy improvisations in level order: don't quit, inspiring boost, hurry, get 'em.
*One level of Soldier (sharpshooter) and 6 levels of Envoy, to be honest. The Soldier dip is just too useful.
**Of course, sciences and mysticism are the only skills that are not class skills for him...
Let me tell you about my envoy... The starting array for my -701 icon (doctor) envoy* was Str 11, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 14, so I have absolutely no right to talk about the right and wrong ways of building envoys. He's currently one scenario away from level 8, and his current array is Str 17, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 16. Avor Stelek considers himself a proud Akitonian warrior-scientist who relies on his shining intellect to defeat mysteries and his swordplay skills to vanquish any curs encountered.
Basically I wanted skills but didn't want an Operative. I also couldn't decide if I wanted to play a red martian swordfighter more than Ming the Merciless, so I gestalted them into one, and haven't looked back since. For Akiton! For Society! And for Science!**
With 13 skill points per level he has been useful, and can learn a frightening amount of skills at level-ups to fill any holes from other regular teammates. Now that the ability boosts are coming online, he can hold his own in melee. He's still barely adequate at ranged combat, but one can't have everything.
Feats in level order: Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Spellbane, Versatile Specialization, Enhanced Resistance (kinetic).
Envoy improvisations in level order: don't quit, inspiring boost, hurry, get 'em.*One level of Soldier (sharpshooter) and 6 levels of Envoy, to be honest. The Soldier dip is just too useful.
**Of course, sciences and mysticism are the only skills that are not class skills for him...
Uh, why did you take Versatile Specialization? You don't have any non-class proficiencies... I mean I get that a John Carter-analogue should be the best swordsman on at least two planets, but I would hate for you to have wasted your feat...
EDIT: I didn't read your first asterisk! Surprised you didn't go Blitz, though, if you are a swordsman...
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Surprised you didn't go Blitz, though, if you are a swordsman...
There were plenty of others blitz soldiers at the time, and I figured that sharpshooter style could help him bypass some attack penalties. With that Dex/BAB he needs some help in ranged combat.
And just because the character thinks he's hot stuff with sword doesn't mean it's true. :-)
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Surprised you didn't go Blitz, though, if you are a swordsman...There were plenty of others blitz soldiers at the time, and I figured that sharpshooter style could help him bypass some attack penalties. With that Dex/BAB he needs some help in ranged combat.
And just because the character thinks he's hot stuff with sword doesn't mean it's true. :-)
Don't get me wrong, I think that Blitz is far too common because it is front-loaded so heavily. The only reason one of my soldiers is Blitz is because the first power is "Rapid Response" and she's a paramedic.
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Well, Blitz ability probably is the best general dip.
Incidentally, that deluded envoy is nominally the party medic as well. We have no mystics at higher tiers yet. It's basically Medicine once per character and then you can track our team by following the empty serum flasks.
If your primary attribute is strength, it does little for your overall character to have an 18 in strength vs a 16.
Thinking more about it, I came to realize it's actually a bad advice. You exchange a +1 in your main attribute for a +1 in your secondary attribute at every level but levels 5-9.
Just take an example, take an 18 and a 12 against a 16 and a 14, increasing both attributes at every 5 levels. Between level 5 and 9, you'll have a +1 to your secondary attribute. Before level 5 and after level 9, you have a -1 in your primary attribute for a +1 in your secondary attribute. It's a 1-1 exchange. It's bad at short term, and bad at long term.
So, unless you know you'll play mostly in the level bracket 5-9, it's better to start with an 18 at first level.
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I imagine most games spend much of their time in 5 to 9, and rarely make it past 9.
I imagine most games spend much of their time in 5 to 9, and rarely make it past 9.
Especially Starfinder Society. Most of your most memorable games are going to be between about 5th and 8th level.
When I started off, I did all of my character planning on a 20 level progression, but as I got into SFS, I realized that every character's career would probably come to an abrupt end at about 12th or 13th level, and even getting that far is going to be pretty unlikely. Even now my highest level character is only 8th, and I've been playing weekly for over a year.
If your primary attribute is strength, it does little for your overall character to have an 18 in strength vs a 16.Thinking more about it, I came to realize it's actually a bad advice. You exchange a +1 in your main attribute for a +1 in your secondary attribute at every level but levels 5-9.
Just take an example, take an 18 and a 12 against a 16 and a 14, increasing both attributes at every 5 levels. Between level 5 and 9, you'll have a +1 to your secondary attribute. Before level 5 and after level 9, you have a -1 in your primary attribute for a +1 in your secondary attribute. It's a 1-1 exchange. It's bad at short term, and bad at long term.
So, unless you know you'll play mostly in the level bracket 5-9, it's better to start with an 18 at first level.
I still strongly disagree with you.
Having a more well rounded character from the start will probably be more enjoyable for general play than starting with an 18 for any character except a Operative.
Sure my melee blitz soldier could have started with an 18 in strength and a 10 int. But starting with 12 int gave me extra skills to participate in space combat and other tasks. Sure I could be more optimized and hit 5% more often and deal an extra 1 or 2 points of damage (and be slightly better at Athletics). But being more well rounded has definitely been more enjoyable to me.
Sure I could be more optimized and hit 5% more often and deal an extra 1 or 2 points of damage (and be slightly better at Athletics).
It's actually a big difference. At level 1, it means around 20% more damage output with a tactical doshko and 25% with an ember flame one during a full attack.
A +1 to your main attribute bonus is a 10% increase in combat efficiency in general, but Strength gives a better bonus thanks to the damage increase.And it doesn't change what I said earlier, instead of going 16 Strength, 12 Intelligence and 14 Dexterity (or whatever secondary attribute you have chosen) you should have gone 18 Strength, 12 Intelligence and 12 Dexterity. Maximizing your main attribute is the optimized way at level 1 (unless you know for sure your character will end his adventuring career between level 8 and 10).
Of course, I'm only speaking of optimization. If you see your Soldier that way, then there's no objection I can raise.
Sure I could be more optimized and hit 5% more often and deal an extra 1 or 2 points of damage (and be slightly better at Athletics).It's actually a big difference. At level 1, it means around 20% more damage output with a tactical doshko and 25% with an ember flame one during a full attack.
A +1 to your main attribute bonus is a 10% increase in combat efficiency in general, but Strength gives a better bonus thanks to the damage increase.And it doesn't change what I said earlier, instead of going 16 Strength, 12 Intelligence and 14 Dexterity (or whatever secondary attribute you have chosen) you should have gone 18 Strength, 12 Intelligence and 12 Dexterity. Maximizing your main attribute is the optimized way at level 1 (unless you know for sure your character will end his adventuring career between level 8 and 10).
At level 1. And it decreases with every level and every additional point of strength you get from a different source. It's most useful at lowest levels and substantial decreases as you level up.
To me this is just another argument against your suggestion. The investment is worse over time.
You shouldn't optimize around level 1. You should be optimizing your whole character (and not just to hit and damage) for the range of levels you expect to play through. For many this means level 1 to about 12 (maybe).
You keep building your way, and I'll keep building mine. Optimizing solely around to hit and damage numbers doesn't make for a fun character in my experience, since at the end of the day you character will only ever have a +1 to attack over mine, and only for half the levels.
The variation of dice rolls for attack and damage is greater than the explicit difference in our bonuses to those things from strength.
Of course, I'm only speaking of optimization. If you see your Soldier that way, then there's no objection I can raise.
You're only looking at optimizing two things, I'm looking at it from the perspective of optimizing the overall character.
What you gain in attack and damage is at the expense of other parts of the character, and the return on investment isn't there.
For what it's worth, the only type of character I would start with an 18 in their main stat would be a dex based shooty character, like an operative or ranged soldier. Dex is good enough that it's worthwhile.
My strength based Solarian started with 16 str, 12 dex (+2 android, +1 outlaw), 10 con, 12 int (+2 android), 10 wis, 10 cha (-2 android).
The int let me not only take extra skills, allowing me to contribute as Science Officer or Engineer in ship combat, it also let me take Technomantic Dabbler which gave our party the only caster and source of detect magic. This also lets me use spell gems (seems GM dependent though).
Our Operative is busy piloting our ship, getting those key initiative checks, and no one else besides me has an appreciable computers or engineering. Our space combat literally hinges on my character having taken a 16 in Str to start and getting the extra skill points to spread around.
If your GM lets you use Technomantic Dabbler to qualify for spell gems, my increased int also soaked 200+ points of damage through a spell gem of Displacement. A spell gem of Dimension Door is always close at hand.
I'm also still pretty much the top damage dealer in the party, though I haven't been counting.
You're only looking at optimizing two things, I'm looking at it from the perspective of optimizing the overall character.
Not at all.
I consider that your main attribute is more important than your secondary attribute. So if you want to "pump" points from one attribute, it's better to do it on the secondary attribute rather than the main one.Anyway, we won't agree. But I highly encourage you to compare a build using this paradigm and one using yours, look at every level brackets and decide which one is definitely better from level 1 to 12 (we can even do it on your Soldier, if you want, as an example).
Superbidi, it's pretty easy to compare.
All other things being equal your character would have +1 to hit, and +1/2 to damage by starting at 18 str & 10 int vs the extra 14 dex or 12 int I was able to start with. For extra dex you get extra AC and boost to some skills, and the extra int would grant you a whole skill point. (Mind you I'm not saying that you can get both, but choosing to boost either int or dex are the best choices).
To me the value of increases defenses or adding an extra skill has greater value to the overall character than the addition of a little more damage output.
You're right. We're never going to agree.
You're clearly placing a premium on damage output that I am not.
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Whether the game wants that to be true or not, as a matter of actuality it vastly depends on what your main attribute is, and mainly if it's a hit stat or not. Also what you get out of your other stats.
A soldier needs strength or dex to hit
An operative needs dex to hit (usually)
A brainblasting mystic needs wisdom to "hit" with their spells
A mechanic oddly enough doesn't need a lot of int
The envoy gets even less out of charisma: most class abilities don't reference it at all. It's a minor part of the ones that do. The envoy has at least as many int based skills as charisma based ones.
The biohacker needs more dex than wis/int
The vanguard needs more dex than con
A healing/buffy/summoning mystic doesn't need more than a 12 starting wisdom
It's good in that it gives a lot of freedom to do different kinds of builds, but I think they may have gone a little overboard in not incentivizing the stat the class is "supposed" to have. Your level is the most important part of your resolve total, and not every class has a use for a lot of resolve
Dex and int are kind of everyone's secondary and tertiary stats since they affect defenses (AC, reflex saves, several skills, and total skill points).
If dex or int is your main stat you can pretty safely max it without issue. Although int isn't that important on the classes that use it as their main ability since they already have a good number of skill points per level.
Anybody else is going to want at least a moderate amount of dex and int to start with.
forgot to mention the solarion, which is a strength based class with charisma as it's prime statistic.