The Envoy, Whats with all the spoony bards?


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Wayfinders

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Charli Poshkettle wrote:
Charli Poshkettle marches up to the Wolf and waves her spoon right under his well-developed nose. "Of course I wield a spoon! What else would I stir my tea with?"
Digs up a femur

Charli mutters under her breath. "Good thing that all gnomes have token spell..."


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
SuperBidi wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Especially on a Envoy. Most of their class abilities don't even depend on charisma. Mechanically there is a 5% difference between starting with an 18 in charisma vs a 16 (for the relevant related abilities). But that 5% could be applied to make a more well rounded character.

Not everything is game mechanics.

If I describe a 7ft tall Vesk with overdevelopped muscles and then say he has 10 in Strength, everyone will say there's an issue.
If I say my character has a degree from Harvard and a few years of work at Google with a 10 Intelligence and no point in Computers, everyone will see an issue.
If I describe a celebrity with sex appeal and magnetism, he will have 18 in Charisma. With 14, I describe my uncle Harry who's making jokes at the Christmas table and is quite a funny lad.
To me, there's a difference between 14 and 18 Charisma. The mechanics are not important, I speak of what the numbers describe. A 14 Charisma guy is average charismatic. With his friends, he's the spirit of the party. But that's all.
An 18 Charisma character has an aura. Next to him, the 14 Charisma character looks bland and uninteresting. He may be good at diplomacy, he can convince his friends of whatever he wants, but next to an 18 Charisma character, he's just invisible.

But well, looks like I'm trying to use the character sheet to describe my character. And it's not what people make. I find that strange.

I think the disconnect here is that you are using a different scale than a lot of people for description of charisma. Many of us are thinking in terms where the galaxy's most charismatic people have 26 charisma, not 18, and so the difference in description between 16 and 18 is not so stark.


HammerJack wrote:
I think the disconnect here is that you are using a different scale than a lot of people for description of charisma. Many of us are thinking in terms where the galaxy's most charismatic people have 26 charisma, not 18, and so the difference in description between 16 and 18 is not so stark.

28 :)

It's not hard to make a scale between 10 and 28.
10-11: Average human, you hardly remember his name
12-13: A bit charismatic and talkative, doesn't come out of the crowd
14-15: Spirit of the party, the guy everyone knows the name
16-17: Charismatic guy, local politician, top salesperson, reality TV actor
18-19: Lead singer of a famous band, celebrity artist
20-21: Named character: Trump, Lennon, Crawford
Above 21: Doesn't exist in real life, magically/cybernetically enhanced celebrity, something we can hardly imagine.

If you do the same thing from 10 to 28, the 14 Charisma guy will be even more bland. So he's no celebrity at all, at least not because of his Charisma.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Alright, so I'll admit that Charli started with an 18 Charisma, but then I added as much dex as I could afford, and I put my first personal upgrade into dex so that I could help my party out. Although I've trained to be a Captain, I'm often the best Starship gunner in my party. I did pick up long arm proficiency, and I'm still using the hutchket rifle that I picked up for her. I'm saving up for a weapon of my level that has limited powerful charges, because I don't always get to shoot in combat. Sometimes I am keeping a fellow player alive by restoring their stamina in a fight.

One of the things that is hilarious to me is how often Charli has had to frontline in Starfinder Society scenarios. There have been several scenarios where Charli has had to stand in front of the party and take hits in order to help keep the enemy off others. She's a terrible frontliner, but she has a pretty good armor class and lots and lots of stamina, so she can last a few rounds.

I think it's a good idea for envoys to consider picking up limited charge weapons that pack a punch. I don't get to shoot every round, but when I do... I want it to be meaningful.

Charli wasn't built as a icon. She was built as a Xenoseeker, out to just greet new people and welcome them in to the Pact Worlds and Starfinder Society. But she's become a pseudo-icon out the backdoor. She's a celebrity due to an appearance on one of Zo!'s shows, and I've flavored that into the concept that her tea franchise is catching on.

All this said, I believe there are many ways to build an Envoy. Charli is super-charismatic, and I totally play her that way. But there is nothing wrong with starting with two 16s in a build, either. Sixteen is still pretty darn charismatic.

Here's what I have to say: BUILD WHAT YOU WANT. Just have a plan for how you are going to contribute in both combat and starship combat. Any Envoy in society play should have a non-Captain role that they can also fulfill well. Even if you don't build for dex, and are doing a melee envoy, you can pick up engineering or computers. You have skill points, use them!


First: Your average roleplayer playing an 18 charisma vs a 16 one is mostly reaching up as high as they can and hitting what they hit. (On a really good day i can pretend to have a six!) Whatever number their character has on the sheet within the range of reasonable starting envoy charismas they're going to be played the same by the character.

Charisma is also problematic because about all it does is add to skills. A puzzle is a raw intelligence test. I don't know if there's a charisma test that isn't tied to a skill. Once someone has ranks and training and a skill I don't know how you'd distinguish a naturally friendly person from someone that was trained to be that way.

If I describe a 7ft tall Vesk with overdevelopped muscles and then say he has 10 in Strength, everyone will say there's an issue.- Glamor muscles. Get off the smiths machine and do some free weights.

If I say my character has a degree from Harvard and a few years of work at Google with a 10 Intelligence and no point in Computers, everyone will see an issue.- Nepotism

If I describe a celebrity with sex appeal and magnetism, he will have 18 in Charisma. With 14, I describe my uncle Harry who's making jokes at the Christmas table and is quite a funny lad.- Mistaking uncle for a supermodel : Glasses

A 14 is still 1 in a hundred. Even if you're one in a million there's 6,000 of you on a planet.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

If I describe a 7ft tall Vesk with overdevelopped muscles and then say he has 10 in Strength, everyone will say there's an issue.- Glamor muscles. Get off the smiths machine and do some free weights.

If I say my character has a degree from Harvard and a few years of work at Google with a 10 Intelligence and no point in Computers, everyone will see an issue.- Nepotism

If I describe a celebrity with sex appeal and magnetism, he will have 18 in Charisma. With 14, I describe my uncle Harry who's making jokes at the Christmas table and is quite a funny lad.- Mistaking uncle for a supermodel : Glasses

:D

10 Strength with muscles => False muscles. 10 Intelligence at Harvard => thanks dad. 14 Charisma uncle => celebrity.
You just shot yourself in the foot. Looks like you're unable to measure Charisma.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
A puzzle is a raw intelligence test.

Who speaks is a raw Charisma test. Just try to say a word next to Trump. The guy is sucking the air out of the room. But he doesn't have a single point in Diplomacy. If you disagree with him, he'll insult you. There's not way you gonna be convinced by such an argument. Still, even with maxed Diplomacy, you won't be able to speak properly next to him. That is Charisma.


SuperBidi wrote:


:D
10 Strength with muscles => False muscles. 10 Intelligence at Harvard => thanks dad. 14 Charisma uncle => celebrity.
You just shot yourself in the foot. Looks like you're unable to measure Charisma.

So your argument is that Regis Philbin doesn't exist? :)


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Yes, I can make scales. Scales that I make have nothing to do with anything outside of my table, though.

Someone's character that isn't at my table not matching up well with my scale doesn't mean their stats are completely decoupled from their character description.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

So your argument is that Regis Philbin doesn't exist? :)

I just don't know who he is. You know, low Charisma guys don't cross the ocean :)

HammerJack wrote:

Yes, I can make scales. Scales that I make have nothing to do with anything outside of my table, though.

Someone's character that isn't at my table not matching up well with my scale doesn't mean their stats are completely decoupled from their character description.

Well, roughly, I mean that having an 18 Charisma is not only a number. You can treat it just like a number, but it's not just a number.

Like having 10 in Strength is not just a number.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Trying to figure out where people in the real world fall on a Charisma scale is likely a losing proposition.

When people jokingly stat their real world selves, I get stumped. Where would I fall? I know charisma is one of my leading stats, not because of appearance, but just because I work really well with people. But I'm not a rock star, I'm just a friendly person who really likes other people.

So... 14? 16? Who knows? More importantly, though... who cares? I love having a high charisma on Charli because it helps out my envoy abilities. Doctor Charli can heal lots of stamina, nail diplomacy rolls, and have lots of RP to do cool things with. Also charisma is my favorite stat ever. I could not dump in in Pathfinder, and in Starfinder even my Operatives rock 14 charisma.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Especially on a Envoy. Most of their class abilities don't even depend on charisma. Mechanically there is a 5% difference between starting with an 18 in charisma vs a 16 (for the relevant related abilities). But that 5% could be applied to make a more well rounded character.

Not everything is game mechanics.

If I describe a 7ft tall Vesk with overdevelopped muscles and then say he has 10 in Strength, everyone will say there's an issue.
If I say my character has a degree from Harvard and a few years of work at Google with a 10 Intelligence and no point in Computers, everyone will see an issue.
If I describe a celebrity with sex appeal and magnetism, he will have 18 in Charisma. With 14, I describe my uncle Harry who's making jokes at the Christmas table and is quite a funny lad.
To me, there's a difference between 14 and 18 Charisma. The mechanics are not important, I speak of what the numbers describe. A 14 Charisma guy is average charismatic. With his friends, he's the spirit of the party. But that's all.
An 18 Charisma character has an aura. Next to him, the 14 Charisma character looks bland and uninteresting. He may be good at diplomacy, he can convince his friends of whatever he wants, but next to an 18 Charisma character, he's just invisible.

But well, looks like I'm trying to use the character sheet to describe my character. And it's not what people make. I find that strange.

You're describing more significant differences in all your other examples compared the charisma one.

Yes, if you described your character as very strong and muscular with 10 strength there would be a disconnect. Same if you described your character as very intelligent and good with computers and had int 10 and no ranks in computers. With charisma (please don't describe it as sex appeal or magnetism because it's not limited to that, it's closest to "force of personality") 10 charisma is average. Sure an 18 charisma person next to a 10 charisma person will make the lower person fall into the background by comparison. But you're talking about a much larger difference in values.

A 16 charisma person is one step down from an 18 charisma person. Sure, they're not as charismatic. But they're nearly as charismatic as you can possibly be (at level 1). But considering that charisma goes all the way up to 28, which might be a "Most Interesting Man in the World" type vs 18 charisma person vs a 16 charisma person....you're not going to see much difference between 16 and 18 compared to either against the 28.

Our argument is simply that you are making the difference into much bigger than it actually is.


SuperBidi wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

So your argument is that Regis Philbin doesn't exist? :)

I just don't know who he is. You know, low Charisma guys don't cross the ocean :)

hmmm quantum Regis....


Though it is a different system, we can find a good point of comparison by looking at carrying capacity in Pathfinder for a strength 16 person vs a strength 18 person.

A str 16 person can carry 230 lbs as a heavy load.

A str 18 person can carry 300 lbs as a heavy load.

A str 10 person can carry 100 lbs as a heavy load.


Actually, my argument is that the numbers on your sheet are there to effect mechanical things, and to let you and your GM know what modifiers to add or subtract from a die roll.

They should have zero influence over how you roleplay your character. Likewise, you can roleplay being the smartest person in the room, or the best looking lizard on TV, but that roleplay has no place whatsoever influencing the game.

It doesn't matter if you, the person can make a great speech. It also doesn't matter if your character has a charisma of 20 and should be able to make a great speech. What matters is that diplomacy check. That's what determines if your speech was great or not.

The same goes for all the stats. My soldier has a 22 dex. By some people's logic, that means I should be playing him as if he can stand on the head of a pin, or dance in the rain without getting wet. But you know, he still misses a fair amount of shots at NPCs.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
A puzzle is a raw intelligence test.

Brief tangent, am I the only one who read this as "A pizza is a raw intelligence test?" :P


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You should never indulge in raw pizza.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Pantshandshake wrote:
You should never indulge in raw pizza.

Which is why you must use your intelligence to bake it!


Which is why Friday is Boiled Pizza Night on Vesk Prime.


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Pantshandshake wrote:

Actually, my argument is that the numbers on your sheet are there to effect mechanical things, and to let you and your GM know what modifiers to add or subtract from a die roll.

They should have zero influence over how you roleplay your character. Likewise, you can roleplay being the smartest person in the room, or the best looking lizard on TV, but that roleplay has no place whatsoever influencing the game.

It doesn't matter if you, the person can make a great speech. It also doesn't matter if your character has a charisma of 20 and should be able to make a great speech. What matters is that diplomacy check. That's what determines if your speech was great or not.

The same goes for all the stats. My soldier has a 22 dex. By some people's logic, that means I should be playing him as if he can stand on the head of a pin, or dance in the rain without getting wet. But you know, he still misses a fair amount of shots at NPCs.

You're going backwards my man. The skill checks are there to help us, the players. If you go on my table and give a convincing speech or make a sounding argument you bet that I'm gonna let you succeed, I'm going to even reward you. This, of course, doesn't mean that you should ignore your brute and dumb Barbarian characteristics and expect me to accept that, because obviously, you've been playing a character that would never make that connection or would try things that way. The same way that it would be harder for a introspective spellcaster/rogue to try to charm his way in some place or trying to charm someone to give up information willingly. I would call a for a check but if you were so good on your RP, I would give you a bonus (or make the DC easier).

That's what checks are for. They are there to serve the roleplay, not the way around. You can be a socially awkward nerd and be playing a charismatic character and the rolls will help you out, even if you're not that proficiency yourself. It can be perfectly paralleled with Strength, you'll never be as strong as your character, but that doesn't mean you'll never lift that rock just because you, as a player, can't.

Mental statistics such a blurry line because the whole game is relying on our mind, unlike physical stats that are mostly focused on combat and overcoming physical challenges.

Your way of thinking about this game is flawed, I'm not personally attacking you, but I think you should reevaluate how you're approaching this roleplay game.

It goes for SuperBidi as well. You're trying to justify a 18 charisma, but roleplay-wise, it's vastly different from a 8-10 charisma character, but barely noticeable from a 16 char character, no matter what kind of spin you want to take. Because social interaction (charisma's main shtick) is not exact or cut and dry, it is nuanced and as such, small variances aren't readily noticeable.


Adding a little bit more, but it's undeniable that character statics are the measuring factor of how you want your character to behave. It's there to try to capture what you're going for.

Basically, character score - disregarding the mechanical aspects- are there to give an idea of what you would expect on a character's behavior.

For instance, a Barbarian with 8 intelligence would be very different for me from a Barbarian with 10. One would hardly be capable of having deeper understanding of things, focusing more on surface level knowledge and focused on his battle knowhow, evaluating enemies more on their apparent threat than potential threat. On the other hand, a 10int Barb would be like a common uneducated person, she would be able to make logical connections, even if it took some time as well as be able to do more than follow orders, even if not being the brightest on the field. For the first barb, I wouldn't accept (or expect the player to make) a well crafted speech or the solution for a puzzle, barring some very specific circumstances. From the latter, I would readily give a bonus because even we ,normal people, have our days of brilliance sometimes.

There's a level of expectation, that's all I'm saying, but it's not a barrier. Wanna play a charismatic person with 8CHAR? Okay, but don't expect having the same success as someone that invested in it and is playing accordingly with how the game translates these concepts.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
SuperBidi wrote:

It's not hard to make a scale between 10 and 28.

10-11: Average human, you hardly remember his name
12-13: A bit charismatic and talkative, doesn't come out of the crowd
14-15: Spirit of the party, the guy everyone knows the name
16-17: Charismatic guy, local politician, top salesperson, reality TV actor
18-19: Lead singer of a famous band, celebrity artist
20-21: Named character: Trump, Lennon, Crawford
Above 21: Doesn't exist in real life, magically/cybernetically enhanced celebrity, something we can hardly imagine.

If you do the same thing from 10 to 28, the 14 Charisma guy will be even more bland. So he's no celebrity at all, at least not because of his Charisma.

Your 10-11 sounds like below average to me. This is more the way it is in my mind's eye:

< 5: Wholly forgettable, possibly traumatizing enough to have (or want to have) blocked the memory of the encounter
6-7: Extremely forgettable or unlikeable
7-8: Not really memorable; doesn't stand out often
9-10: No more or less difficult to remember than most people

Exceptions abound. A 1 Charisma lizard that bites off your hand can still be both memorable and traumatizing.


I don't think memorable is the best measure of charisma.

Someone with an average charisma asks to borrow a chair, they get a chair

Someone with a high charisma asks to borrow a chair, you wind up with a really fun story too

Someone with a low charisma asks to borrow a chair you (*#$$ (#*#$($ the wrong way you're probably going to remember the ensuing barfight.

Wayfinders

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Charli nods. "And that's how I wound up being Chairman of the Manifold Host Welcoming Committee! But hey... I really do need all those chairs to stand on."


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One day I will have a spoony bard that just straight up murders people with a spoon.


Dracomicron wrote:
One day I will have a spoony bard that just straight up murders people with a spoon.

I know you can figure out something like that in pathfinder, not sure about starfinder yet.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

A Bohemian Ear Spoon isn't that suboptimal of an approach to combat.


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How to have a "spoony bard" armed with a spoon in SFS:

1) Start with high charisma.
2) Take at least one level of solar weapon solarian.
3) Declare the general shape of your solar weapon manifestation is that of a spoon.
4) Proceed to defeat enemies with a spoon.

SFS approved and rules legal. No re-skinning necessary.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Hiruma Kai wrote:

How to have a "spoony bard" armed with a spoon in SFS:

1) Start with high charisma.
2) Take at least one level of solar weapon solarian.
3) Declare the general shape of your solar weapon manifestation is that of a spoon.
4) Proceed to defeat enemies with a spoon.

SFS approved and rules legal. No re-skinning necessary.

For bonus points, I recommend playing a korasha lashunta with low wisdom, wearing blue light armor. That way you'll also be a justice sandwich (no toppings necessary)!

"SPOOOOOOOON!!!"


Starfinder Superscriber

Now I wish I hadn't gone all broody and serious with my SFS Weapon Solarian.


pithica42 wrote:
Now I wish I hadn't gone all broody and serious with my SFS Weapon Solarian.

The station is afraid of me. I've seen it's true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the ysoki will drown....


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Spoonbard, come together with your hands
Save me, I'm together with your plan.
Feel the rhythm with your hands
Steal the rhythm while you can.


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Starfinder Superscriber

Nah, not that kind of serious. He was a junior contract negotiator at Abadarcorp and got caught in a riot stemming from a Goblin Worker's Rights protest while he was negotiating a union contract. In the violence of the riot his weapon manifested and he killed some people. So now he broods guiltily over what was ruled an accidental death but he feels was murder (or at least, manslaughter in self-defense). Plus, he thinks the only reason he wasn't punished was because the victims were goblins who were 'rocking the boat' so it's throwing his entire faith in the 'system' out of whack.

Of course... now I want to do him as an over the top spoof of Rorshach with a lunch tray for a weapon.


Were they from the Anklebiter clan?


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BigNorseWolf wrote:


The station is afraid of me. I've seen it's true face. The streets are extended gutters and the gutters are full of blood and when the drains finally scab over, all the ysoki will drown....

"I'm not trapped in the Prison Moon with you. You all are trapped in the Prison Moon WITH ME!"


There are a lot of potential builds with the Envoy. A few of them are already listed. Although I bet the Envoy was inspired by Princess Leia. I bet she isn't a spoony bard.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
EltonJ wrote:

There are a lot of potential builds with the Envoy. A few of them are already listed. Although I bet the Envoy was inspired by Princess Leia. I bet she isn't a spoony bard.

I always more pictured Han Solo as the primary inspiration for the Envoy, personally.


My character's idea was inspired by Malcolm Reynolds, but with a backstory less focused on losing a war and more on personal loss. I expected to be good with character interactions, namely diplomacy and intimidation (hence my "mercenary" theme) but I expected to contribute to combat as more than just making Get'em every round and nothing much more than that in combat, I thought I was going to be playing a Captain-type character, instead I got a cheerleader and discount-bard. After playing for months I saw that the only fun part of playing my character was the social aspect because it depended way less on the mechanics of the game and because I created one of my best backstories for characters at the time.

Funnily enough, my character concept (ex-Steward) was very similar to what they did when released the Steward Archetype (didn't got me interested at all, in fact after playing with archetypes in Pf1, I just realized that SF's archetypes are awful and uninteresting).


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Lightning Raven wrote:

My character's idea was inspired by Malcolm Reynolds, but with a backstory less focused on losing a war and more on personal loss. I expected to be good with character interactions, namely diplomacy and intimidation (hence my "mercenary" theme) but I expected to contribute to combat as more than just making Get'em every round and nothing much more than that in combat, I thought I was going to be playing a Captain-type character, instead I got a cheerleader and discount-bard. After playing for months I saw that the only fun part of playing my character was the social aspect because it depended way less on the mechanics of the game and because I created one of my best backstories for characters at the time.

Funnily enough, my character concept (ex-Steward) was very similar to what they did when released the Steward Archetype (didn't got me interested at all, in fact after playing with archetypes in Pf1, I just realized that SF's archetypes are awful and uninteresting).

Mal Reynolds MIGHT have a dip in Soldier. Just sayin'.

I actually have a Steward Officer in SFS and I really like him. Archetypes are definitely not without drawbacks, but of my seven SFS characters, three have archetypes and I feel like they are worthwhile.


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@Dracomicron I only thought of dipping 1 level in solder with my Envoy in hindsight, after we all died and switched over to PF1 again. Maybe if I ever want to try it again, I'll consider multiclass.

The archetypes seem very flavorful at first glance... But then you start looking up their features and most of them are too minimal. The biggest mistake is them being so generalist that they are flavorful concepts with flavorless mechanics.

I mean... What the hell is "Demand Surrender" supposed to actually give as benefit? You can literally try in the middle of combat to reason with the enemy and the GM will definitely either start developing things further if the tide of battle is in your favor and their morale allows it.

In fact, in my first combat ever in Starfinder I did exactly that WITHOUT any archetypes, it was the first combat at Absalom Station in the Dead Suns 1, since I was a ex-Steward I knew the right words and tried to prevent bloodshed, I managed to make half of them back down and the "villain" group refused and we shot them down. Honestly, for a 9th level ability the only thing it does is restrict the game for those that don't have the archetype, since seems like if you don't have Demand Surrender you can't demand surrender doing the same thing.


Dracomicron wrote:


Mal Reynolds MIGHT have a dip in Soldier. Just sayin'.

I actually have a Steward Officer in SFS and I really like him. Archetypes are definitely not without drawbacks, but of my seven SFS characters, three have archetypes and I feel like they are worthwhile.

I have a hard time seeing what people see in envoy+ Steward besides theme.

The mechanics of Steward (like most archetypes) are terrible on a non soldier. Starfinder generally you get a meh pre requisite and then later on something good (like get em to improved get em) Archetypes slow that growth to glacial.

Two extra languages is kind of meh when there are an infinite number of languages people speak. You need a universal translator or magic anyway.

You have enough skill ranks to take life science to id things for real if you want.

using diplomacy for demoralize might be worthwhile if it didn't cost you the ability to put an expertise die AND a reroll on your intimidate anyway.

Military training is bleh as feats are kinda bleh in starfinder. Class features are way better.

and demand surrender is absolutely horrible because readied offensive actions are flat out busted. You're trading a +1 to hit for you and your friends for you and your friends to trade a standard action now for a standard action in place of a full round action later.

With or without the ability you're stuck with

Stop or i'll shoot!
Get shot at
Fire back

When you could instead

Stop or i'll shoot (shoot them)
Get shot at
Fire back.

2 shots instead of 1 is much, MUCH better than than a +1. Merciful weapons and Electro zappy tasers/taclashes are cheap if you have one of those weird moral objection to splattering the walls with the blood of sentient beings thing...

You can have a Soldier thats a soldier. You can have an Envoy that's a soldier. You can have a Steward that's a HellKnight. You can be a steward without being a Steward. It seems really weird to me that people are justifying worse mechanics with something they could just role play.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Quote:
using diplomacy for demoralize might be worthwhile if it didn't cost you the ability to put an expertise die AND a reroll on your intimidate anyway.

What ability are you talking about for a reroll on intimidate? I'm not seeing a talent to do that, and would have some use for one.

Wayfinders

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Sorry, I could not help myself today! This isn't Charli's viewpoint, but I could see her composing it for fun.

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

♫ I am the very model of a spoony Envoy-General,
My charisma’s pegged at 18 which alas is barely minimal
I know the Stewards, talk show hosts and delegates ambassadorial
And can name icons of the Pact Worlds in order categorical!
So my armor’s not updated and my weapons are deplorable,
But that’s okay because we all know that I'm freaking adorable
About my infosphere appearances I'm teeming with a lot o' news,
With improved get ‘em, inspiring boost, and flossed teeth you can’t refuse.

I’m very good at diplomacy; I never leave the Captain’s chair
Who needs to fight when your photo's plastered everywhere?
In short, in matters amorous, fashionable, or rhetorical,
I am the very model of a spoony Envoy-General.

I know our mythic history: the Swarm, Veskarium and the Gap;
Oh and there’s other details, but I’d rather drink a beer on tap.
I quote sugar-pop lyrics with a memory quite miraculous
And never ever look anything less than fabulous!
I charm my fans, I pose for pics, I know the right way to schmooze and get a laugh
My line of bespoke station wear can be purchased pre-autographed.
But sometimes I get stressed out; all this attention’s rather hard
Oh! But I do not regret one day of me being such a spoony bard!

I can write a washing bill in twenty languages plus cuneiform,
And tell you ev'ry detail of smashing Hell Knight's uniform:
In short, in matters amorous, fashionable, or rhetorical,
I am the very model of a spoony Envoy-General. ♫

___
Source: The very Model of a Modern Major General

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
BNW wrote:
You can have a Soldier thats a soldier. You can have an Envoy that's a soldier. You can have a Steward that's a HellKnight. You can be a steward without being a Steward. It seems really weird to me that people are justifying worse mechanics with something they could just role play.

The difference is that having the archetype gives you the chance to say to your GM that your character really made the sacrifices to be a Steward or a Hell Knight, albeit an off-duty one who also works with the Starfinder Society on assignment. I gave Dracomicron's steward technomancer nods from the other stewards in Bastion when he visited. They knew him, even though he was 'off-duty.'


HammerJack wrote:
Quote:
using diplomacy for demoralize might be worthwhile if it didn't cost you the ability to put an expertise die AND a reroll on your intimidate anyway.
What ability are you talking about for a reroll on intimidate? I'm not seeing a talent to do that, and would have some use for one.

D oh . My bad. I thought rattling presence did that. I think i read "you may forgo your expertise die to...." and moved on.

Wouldn't 2 levels of soldier, use THAT class with the archetype to become a steward, still get you the intimidate stuff off of envoy faster than single classing?


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Charli Poshkettle wrote:

Sorry, I could not help myself today! This isn't Charli's viewpoint, but I could see her composing it for fun.

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

♫ I am the very model of a spoony Envoy-General,
My charisma’s pegged at 18 which alas is barely minimal
I know the Stewards, talk show hosts and delegates ambassadorial
And can name icons of the Pact Worlds in order categorical!
So my armor’s not updated and my weapons are deplorable,
But that’s okay because we all know that I'm freaking adorable
About my infosphere appearances I'm teeming with a lot o' news,
With improved get ‘em, inspiring boost, and flossed teeth you can’t refuse.

I’m very good at diplomacy; I never leave the Captain’s chair
Who needs to fight when your photo's plastered everywhere?
In short, in matters amorous, fashionable, or rhetorical,
I am the very model of a spoony Envoy-General.

I know our mythic history: the Swarm, Veskarium and the Gap;
Oh and there’s other details, but I’d rather drink a beer on tap.
I quote sugar-pop lyrics with a memory quite miraculous
And never ever look anything less than fabulous!
I charm my fans, I pose for pics, I know the right way to schmooze and get a laugh
My line of bespoke station wear can be purchased pre-autographed.
But sometimes I get stressed out; all this attention’s rather hard
Oh! But I do not regret one day of me being such a spoony bard!

I can write a washing bill in twenty languages plus cuneiform,
And tell you ev'ry detail of smashing Hell Knight's uniform:
In short, in matters amorous, fashionable, or rhetorical,
I am the very model of a spoony Envoy-General. ♫

___
Source: The very Model of a Modern Major General

You are amazing and you deserve a medal. Thank you.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:


I actually have a Steward Officer in SFS and I really like him.
I have a hard time seeing what people see in envoy+ Steward besides theme.

Er, I said I have a Steward, I didn't say he was an Envoy/Steward. It's actually a Technomancer/Steward.

I agree that Archetypes are rough for Envoys if they have features at 2nd and 4th level because improvs are their main schtick, but a Technomancer mainly just loses a magic hack and a spell known, which isn't a huge deal if you build to do a certain job (like my techno-steward is all about the Junksword and mostly uses his excess slots on Empower Weapon).

Some Archetypes are better for Envoys, like Skyfire Centurion. First feature comes at 4th level, meaning they have two Improvs before they lose anything, and the level 4 Centurion bonus is a doubled Harrying/Covering Fire bonus, stackable with Get Em! The level 6 ability allows you to give your melee goon ally Coordinated Shot (or something else, but I like Coordinated Shot).

Quote:
using diplomacy for demoralize might be worthwhile if it didn't cost you the ability to put an expertise die AND a reroll on your intimidate anyway.

I don't think Intimidate currently has a reroll talent (they can forego their die to demoralize groups or increase the duration of demoralize with the current talents), so using Diplomacy to Demoralize is actually the only current way to get a Demoralize reroll (using Slick Customer).

Quote:
Military training is bleh as feats are kinda bleh in starfinder. Class features are way better.

Well, Military Training is technically two feats (one at 4th and another at 6th), which is actually a pretty good exchange for one class feature (most feat/feature exchanges are 1:1). Plus, the feats in question are stuff that is good for spoony classes (advanced weapons/longarms proficiency/specialization or Improved Unarmed Strike/Improved Combat Maneuver... I personally got IUS/Disarm on my Junksword Nuar Technomancer Steward, which improves his Natural Weapons and makes his Junksword only a net -2 on Disarms).

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Charli Poshkettle wrote:

Sorry, I could not help myself today! This isn't Charli's viewpoint, but I could see her composing it for fun.

★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★

♫ I am the very model of a spoony Envoy-General,
My charisma’s pegged at 18 which alas is barely minimal
I know the Stewards, talk show hosts and delegates ambassadorial
And can name icons of the Pact Worlds in order categorical!
So my armor’s not updated and my weapons are deplorable,
But that’s okay because we all know that I'm freaking adorable
About my infosphere appearances I'm teeming with a lot o' news,
With improved get ‘em, inspiring boost, and flossed teeth you can’t refuse.

I’m very good at diplomacy; I never leave the Captain’s chair
Who needs to fight when your photo's plastered everywhere?
In short, in matters amorous, fashionable, or rhetorical,
I am the very model of a spoony Envoy-General.

I know our mythic history: the Swarm, Veskarium and the Gap;
Oh and there’s other details, but I’d rather drink a beer on tap.
I quote sugar-pop lyrics with a memory quite miraculous
And never ever look anything less than fabulous!
I charm my fans, I pose for pics, I know the right way to schmooze and get a laugh
My line of bespoke station wear can be purchased pre-autographed.
But sometimes I get stressed out; all this attention’s rather hard
Oh! But I do not regret one day of me being such a spoony bard!

I can write a washing bill in twenty languages plus cuneiform,
And tell you ev'ry detail of smashing Hell Knight's uniform:
In short, in matters amorous, fashionable, or rhetorical,
I am the very model of a spoony Envoy-General. ♫

___
Source: The very Model of a Modern Major General

I wish I could up vote this more than once.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Hmm wrote:
I gave Dracomicron's steward technomancer nods from the other stewards in Bastion when he visited. They knew him, even though he was 'off-duty.'

I still had to promise to buy coffee and muffins for a week. Have you seen the prices at Space Caribou these days?


BigNorseWolf wrote:
It seems really weird to me that people are justifying worse mechanics with something they could just role play.

There are lots of people considering that the character sheet is there to represent the character the closest possible, and that no mechanics would replace what is there.

At my gaming group, if you don't have the Steward archetype, you're no steward at all.

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