Blue Scarf for Swashbuckler op?


Advice


Hey folks,

I have a swashbuckler in my party wanting to buy a blue scarf, as they have just acquired some loot and are looking for items to spend it on. Another player in my party is strongly cautioning against this, saying that he had a swashbuckler in his party (where he GM'ed) suck all the momentum and fun out of the game because of the reach + AoO combination of the item - he ended up banning it in his game, saying 'it's severely overpowered'. I'm looking at the item description and it doesn't strike me that way particularly, although it does look very useful. I'm leaning towards just giving it to the player (if it really sucks the fun out of the game I'll remove it, we're a pretty chill group of friends who would have no problem with that), he's not a minmaxer anyway. But I just wanted to ask around here: perhaps I'm missing something or someone here has their experiences with the item that they want to share. What do you guys think, is it overpowered?

Thanks! :)


No real difference than just casting enlarge person.


yep. dont see how this is severely OP compared to say, a wizard? or a cleric? or any major caster? or say, a barbarian?


Well it could become OP if given a fortuitous weapon. Combat reflexes are common on seashbucklers as is a high dex. Getting 2 free attacks on a guy for just getting near you when you add your level and dex in damage could be significant. Then doing a free attack to anyone else, and then just parrying away the attacks on you..

I could see how it could be disruptive. But like I said enlarge person gets you almost all of this with a few downsides.

But given that most people say swashbucklers are a dip class, maybe having a guy at the table prove that wrong isn't a bad thing. It's not even loopholing or rules lawyer it's very basic feats and items made for the class and build type.

And as the OP said, can always change it if it comes to that.


It's as useful as using a reach weapon. But not particularly problematic.

Remember that the item requires light or one handed piercing weapons. The normal swashbuckler with scimitars doesn't work with it.

Silver Crusade

It's quite a bit more powerful than reach weapons, for these reasons:
* Works for DEX-based attacks, so 5+ AoOs becomes a thing.
* Works with a shield
* Easily dual-wield finesse reach weapons

Personally I don't like it and find it mildly OP, but I agree with Weables that it's less OP than a Wizard or Cleric.


Cavall wrote:
No real difference than just casting enlarge person.

A better comparison would be Long Arm, since it works just as good for Dex-builds. Still a 1st level spell on the Wizard spell list, though.


Magda Luckbender wrote:

It's quite a bit more powerful than reach weapons, for these reasons:

* Works for DEX-based attacks, so 5+ AoOs becomes a thing.
* Works with a shield
* Easily dual-wield finesse reach weapons

Personally I don't like it and find it mildly OP, but I agree with Weables that it's less OP than a Wizard or Cleric.

Those problems already exist with spear dancing style. It allows dex based spears and reach, so lots of AoO. With Shield Brace it allows you to use a shield with your hands full.

Heck, the elven branch spear allows for dex based spear use by itself.


Dex-based reach works right out of the box with branch spears. Sure, those aren't swashable but the swashbuckler deserves some nice things.

Scarab Sages

Since it requires spending panache, I don’t think it’s too terribly overpowered. Swashbuckler is a CHA class, so using umd on a wand of long arm is certainly possible. The swift action is nice, for sure. With having to spend panache to activate it and having to spend panache to parry, I don’t think it can be abused too, too much, but it’s definitely a boost.

I wish my Kapenia Dancer’s Elasticity arcana worked like this scarf. That’s a swift (EDIT: Elasticity is a free action, I keep making that mistake) and spend an Arcane Pool point for reach until the end of your turn, and doesn’t even help with AoOs off turn. As a magus I can just cast long arm, anyway.


Magda Luckbender wrote:

It's quite a bit more powerful than reach weapons, for these reasons:

* Works for DEX-based attacks, so 5+ AoOs becomes a thing.
* Works with a shield
* Easily dual-wield finesse reach weapons

Personally I don't like it and find it mildly OP, but I agree with Weables that it's less OP than a Wizard or Cleric.

bladed brush would also qualify for all points that are relevant to a swashbuckler, since they typically cant use shields or dual-wield, allowing use of a dex based reach weapon. I currently have an inquisitor who does just that.


Also of note, a blue scarf only works with certain weapons, for instance you can't use it with a scimitar and slashing grace. Meaning it's even more limited than longarm which a 1st level spell. Let the guy have his scarf.


Don't make him buy it, just give it to him. He finds it laying in a mud puddle.

Swashbuckler... overpowered? Not a chance.

Burn Panache just for Lunge? Lol.


I mean, you can play silly reach games with a swashbuckler via versatile designing a rapier into the close weapon group and using it with outslug style, at which point you can use the blue scarf to have a 25' circle of death (15' reach with the ability to 10' step).

But since this doesn't come on until 8th level and Barbarians straight up get pounce at 10 (and out of melee combat you are still a swashbuckler) it's not unreasonable.


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Not necessarily. There are a few restrictions. Besides the weapon specific parts mentions, you are actually spending some valuable resources for a swashbuckler.

The first is the panache used to activate the item. This is not too serious a problem- the item lasts long enough to cover pretty much every fight (that isn't a slogged down mess, at least). Additionally, the AoOs give you extra attacks, which means more chances to crit and get panache back. However, this still means that you have to be careful- you never want to go to 0 panache (a lot of abilities, including precise strike, need at least 1 panache), so your panache usage is often restricted right at the start of a fight until you can refill.

Additionally, you also invest a certain degree of action economy- swashbucklers are a class that are able to effectively use their AoOs. Most classes just use it as a threat against certain acts, or a way to punish creatures that try to get past them to attack the wizard. But swashbucklers has the parry and riposte, which is a method to reduce incoming damage and dish damage back out. AoO economy is particularly a problem if you grab a fortuitous weapon (get a second AoO at BAB-5 for the same AoO drawing action; a mini full attack)- that also eats up more AoOs, and you can only use the ability once.

So overall... the blue scarf is powerful. Reach gives you the ability to full attack more, and punish in new ways. But it also takes away resources from the powerful parry and riposte ability- both panache and AoOs. I feel it is well worth it, but it is still not completely free. The costs ease up in time as you boost your dex and cha, but it is still there.

Scarab Sages

VoodistMonk wrote:

Don't make him buy it, just give it to him. He finds it laying in a mud puddle.

Swashbuckler... overpowered? Not a chance.

Burn Panache just for Lunge? Lol.

It is a better option than Lunge, since it works when it is not your turn, and Lunge doesn't. In other words, lunge isn't going to get you AoOs off turn, but the scarf will.


But as others have noted, the bluff scarf doesn't really open up anything beyond what a swashbuckler could do in other ways.

Yes it's a good combo item, but hardly overpowered.


The Blue Scarf is not going to make any Swashbuckler overpowered. Nothing will.

A reach weapon Swashbuckler who doesn't have to burn resources just to get reach is still not at all overpowered. And never will be.

Blue Scarf getting the BanHammer for being OP is literally hilarious to me.

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:

But as others have noted, the bluff scarf doesn't really open up anything beyond what a swashbuckler could do in other ways.

Yes it's a good combo item, but hardly overpowered.

Yeah, I wasn’t arguing it is overpowered. Just pointing out it’s better than Lunge, because the earlier message equates them. Better than Lunge isn’t really enough to get something banned.


You guys are awesome - thanks for the replies! (Sorry, noticed I hadn't responded to this yet and thought it rude of me)

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