Hi all, so I have a player building a coven witch to try to get a ridiculous caster level at character level 10. I want your input on if it all works RAW.
Here is the broad strokes of how he would do it in two PMs he sent me...
So, I have a build that comes online on level 10. Basically it is a witch with the coven hex and similacrum to get +40539 to Caster level. That gives my round/level spells a duration of 2.8 days. Would that be the kind of thing that you frown upon, or is it fair game?
I think I need a better understanding on how the mechanics of this work...
Here are the holes I see...1) Similacrum isn't on the witches spell list...I am guessing you are getting a staff of it an UMDing it?
2) 1 Similacrum can aid another to get you a +1 CL bump...where is the other 40538 coming from?
3) Since I don't know what mechanics are in play in this exploit I don't know if this is a hole or not...but you count as a hag for joining a hag's coven, but not for creating one. I have read over some of the conversations online about this hex, and I tend to agree with the side that says a Hags coven has to have at least 1 hag in it. If you are getting that Hag to play nice with you through leadership then You have to be at least level 18 in order to get a blood hag from this list. I could maybe see adding a lower CR hag to the list...but I would need to look through stuff to figure out what the effective cohort level would be.
So like I said, a better understanding of the rules mechanics is needed...then I can make a ruling on if it is fair game or not.
Yeah for sure.
1: You need to buy 2 scrolls of Similacrum. First is used to create a Winter Hag, which adds Similacrum to the coven spells, second is to make a clone of yourself. You UMD for the first 2.
2: You need to have the halfing ability (dont remember which off the top of my head) which boosts aid another on the casting to +3.
3: You and your coven make an arbitrarily large amount of yourselfs with coven castings of similacrum.
4: You then baleful polymorph them all into bats. They willingly fail the first save, then discard all who fail the second.
5: 554 Squares are within 30 ft of you, -1 for your own hex, so you can fit 13824 tiny bats in your square. Each witch has a CL of 6, so has an 85% of aiding another. If I produce more mes, so that the ones that fail move out of the swarm, and other ones move in and aid, then I have an average of 13513 successful Aid anothers, for a total of +40539 to Caster level. That gives my round/level spells a duration of 2.8 days.
So that's the rundown that I have so far. Thoughts? Comments? Obviously broken, but I am more interested in if there is a flaw in the rules logic rather than GM Fiating a no, based on the game we are playing. Frankly I am less worried about the duration on buffs and more worried about damaging spells and debuffs that are caster level dependent in their calculation and don't have a caster level cap set in their wording.
For additional info, this is for a tourney fight, would not ever try to bring to a real game. The combat spell of choice is going to be a reach frostbite, so I can precast it, and anyone immune to cold and nonlethal will be able to laugh it off. (I am also working on the assumption that cannot bring swarm of me bats into the combat)
My first thought is that you're making 13824 simulacrums at a cost of 2500gp each, so that's almost 35 million gold worth there. Is that a problem?
(I'm not super familiar with the rules you're using so if there's something I'm missing there let me know)
EDIT: Just re-read Simulacrum, if you're making them 1HD creatures it's only ~6.9 million gold.
That actually is not an issue...When casting Similacrum as a coven they cast it as an SLA...
Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
So a hag coven with a Winter Hag in it can cast similacrum without any materials. There also does not appear to be a limit on the number of times per day the SLA is used.
Once the Similacrum is turned into a bat it should loose the special ability to grant a CL with aid another. Coven is an extraordinary ability and Baleful Polymorph loses them. The halfling trait that boost aid other does not give a +2 bonus, it changes the +2 to a +4, the would not effect the +1 CL Bonus a Coven Hex gives either. Your player is adding effects to abilities and ignoring drawback. Though it is an interesting idea, it is not possible with how he has worked it out.
For additional info, this is for a tourney fight, would not ever try to bring to a real game. The combat spell of choice is going to be a reach frostbite, so I can precast it, and anyone immune to cold and nonlethal will be able to laugh it off. (I am also working on the assumption that cannot bring swarm of me bats into the combat)
I had a feeling that you had an agro plan for the high caster level...1d6+40539 is essentially insta dead to anyone not immune to cold and nonlethal. Wow that's nasty. SR won't save them either with the caster level you would be toting.
Like I said before though, unless there is something RAW that is wrong with it I am inclined to allow it in the tournament. That is what the tournament is about after all.
Once the Similacrum is turned into a bat it should loose the special ability to grant a CL with aid another. Coven is an extraordinary ability and Baleful Polymorph loses them. The halfling trait that boost aid other does not give a +2 bonus, it changes the +2 to a +4, the would not effect the +1 CL Bonus a Coven Hex gives either. Your player is adding effects to abilities and ignoring drawback. Though it is an interesting idea, it is not possible with how he has worked it out.
It only loses the special ability if it fails the will save (the second save after the fort). Otherwise it is a bat that retains all of its abilities from its witch levels. He accounted for that in his write up...and presumably if too many bats failed the will save he could just SLA more.
The halfling piece does have more merit though...
Effect: The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag’s coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever the witch with this hex is within 30 feet of another witch with this hex, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other witch’s caster level for 1 round. This bonus applies to the witch’s spells and all of her hexes.
Whenever you successfully perform an aid another action, you grant your ally a +4 bonus instead of the normal +2.
Since the bonus in coven hex does not line up with the normal aid another bonus (it is just +1 CL instead of +2) I am inclined to think that the Helpful Trait would not benefit it.
If it was written differently, like ..."you grant your ally an additional +2 bonus on a successful aid another action." then it would seem more likely.
So that would bring the caster level bonus down to 13513...which is still insanely large.
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He gets around the cost by making it a spell like ability.
By the rules, the first problem is whether or not the Simulacrum hag has the coven and/or ability to add simulacrum. Simulacrums have only "he appropriate ...special abilities for a creature of that level or HD" but there is no defined rule to as to what a 5HD (as opposed to 10) winter hag should have. Many players seem to believe that no rule = all special abilities. I tend to think that it means the GM must make a determination.
Another problem is that spell like abilities don't cost anything, but they do take as long to cast as regular spells. 12 hours for simulacrum. So the character has spent 20 years just casting 13824 simulacrums. Since the simulacrums will have a will save of about +5, probably it will take at least 3 times that.
Of course caster level isn't the worst abuse if this were to be allowed. 13824 simulacrum witches can certainly do 13824 sleep hex attacks as a standard action.
I suggest the player just pretend that this all worked, and he won and then make someone he and the other players might actually enjoy in a game. I suggest to the GM, he just so no.
Alternately, the GM can allow it but require every single roll to be done in front of him. I suggest he do so while he and the other players and playing some other game.
That actually is not an issue...When casting Similacrum as a coven they cast it as an SLA...
Gotcha.
And no, the Halfling bonus doesn't work that way ... not that it makes much difference - 1d6+13513 is still insta-death.
I will say that doing this should impose some perception penalties, and you need to get close enough to hit the enemy while still within your swarm ...
LOL are there coven swarm rules to get past the proximity requirements? As RR pointed out, this build only works if you can ignore all those pesky little details. It reminds me of those wonderful films of early flying attempts, but with the added benefit of being able to ignore such trifling things as gravity and materials strength.
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According to both aonprd and d20pfsrd Frostbite does 1d6 + 1 point per level, not +1 per caster level. So no matter how much you cheese your CL it's still only 1d6+10 nonlethal damage that you can use 10 times. I mean, I'm sure you could find some other spell to cast instead, but if your going strict RAW just figured I'd let you know.
Level and Caster Level are often used synonymously. I think there's an FAQ about it, but I wouldn't know where to look.
I'm 99% sure this is a case of "level" = "caster level".
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Per this post, you can get +514,000 CL from the coven.
I think that you could do some additional CL boosts if you use the spell Sharesister in a recursive method. Maybe someday I will calculate it.
@Temperans: The coven Aid Another is a standard action with no roll. So you don't need to move creatures around based on who aided you. You just have to be within the 30' range. It is OK by RAW.
Baleful Polymorph can go to diminutive, so why not? [Just checked: bat is diminutive.] Get 125 flying creatures per cube. My post [and previous] explain all the details.
As to the Winter Hag, the coven ability is not linked to a HD value. The Sea Hag at 4 HD gets the coven abilities. The simulacrum of the winter had has 5 HD so why would it loose coven abilities?
@Paladrone & @MrCharisma: The Frostbite spell is 1d6 +1/level, so at CL 100 it does 1d6+100.
@Dave Justus: Your estimate of 20 years is off. It will only take 33 days to get 13824 extra bodies. It takes 37 days to get 40539, and 46 days for 514000. Why? Well, the 5th time you make a sim, you make another winter hag. You now have two covens casting each day until you have enough for 3. And so on.
After 2 casting: 3 bodies
After 3 casting: 4 bodies
After 4 casting: 5 bodies
After 5 casting: 6 bodies
After 6 casting: 8 bodies
After 7 casting: 10 bodies
After 8 casting: 13 bodies
After 9 casting: 17 bodies
After 10 casting: 22 bodies
After 11 casting: 29 bodies
After 12 casting: 38 bodies
After 13 casting: 50 bodies
After 14 casting: 66 bodies
After 15 casting: 88 bodies
After 16 casting: 117 bodies
After 17 casting: 156 bodies
After 18 casting: 208 bodies
After 19 casting: 277 bodies
After 20 casting: 369 bodies
After 21 casting: 492 bodies
After 22 casting: 656 bodies
After 23 casting: 874 bodies
After 24 casting: 1165 bodies
After 25 casting: 1553 bodies
After 26 casting: 2070 bodies
After 27 casting: 2760 bodies
After 28 casting: 3680 bodies
After 29 casting: 4906 bodies
After 30 casting: 6541 bodies
After 31 casting: 8721 bodies
After 32 casting: 11628 bodies
After 33 casting: 15504 bodies
After 34 casting: 20672 bodies
After 35 casting: 27562 bodies
After 36 casting: 36749 bodies
After 37 casting: 48998 bodies
After 38 casting: 65330 bodies
After 39 casting: 87106 bodies
After 40 casting: 116141 bodies
After 41 casting: 154854 bodies
After 42 casting: 206472 bodies
After 43 casting: 275296 bodies
After 44 casting: 367061 bodies
After 45 casting: 489414 bodies
After 46 casting: 652552 bodies
/cevah
So here is a question I think both the player and I were assuming but apparently may not be true based on context of other posts.
"All three hags must take a full-round action to take part in this form of cooperative magic. All coven spell-like abilities function at CL 9th (or at the highest CL available to the most powerful hag in the coven). The save DCs are Charisma-based, and function as if with a Charisma score of 16 unless one of the hags has a higher Charisma score, in which case the spell-like ability DCs are adjusted by that hag’s Charisma modifier."
So is the casting time for the coven simulacrum 12 hours or 1 round? 12 hours and 6 seconds is a huge difference.
The coven spells are as a full round action.
"Using all other spell-like abilities is a Standard Action unless noted otherwise, and doing so provokes Attacks of Opportunity"
Oh, had never seen sharesister before.
Main problem I have with this build is that it still loses to a Grapple Barbarian with a scroll of Antimagic field (Again with the assumption that cannot bring all simulacrum onto the tournament fight)
Scott, I follow all of your logic except for the first bit...
"convince a Winter hag to part with a piece of itself"
I do not see any requirement to have hair, blood, etc. from the target for the simulacrum spell...In classic fantasy stories that is certainly true, but it does not appear to be part of this RAW.
Components V, S, M (ice sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)
From my reading of the spell description, the caster does not even need to be in proximity of the creature to be duplicated. It does not talk about a target of the spell.
Also, Simulacrum of a Hag is not necessarily a Hag, and may not be able to join a Coven at all. In fact, I'd say a Simulacrum of a Hag is not a Hag. Can you even join a Coven unwillingly? Well, Simulacrae have no free will and no ability to do anything willingly.
This does bring up an interesting point and potential shutdown. Unlike many other classes, Witches get their powers directly from a patron entity. (Arguably, Clerics would be in a similar boat.) Does a simulacrum of a Witch have the same tie to the patron entity? Would 500,000 simulacrums all get de facto contracts with a patron? Would such a patron entity have the actual ability to empower this sudden surge in their adherents? (Again, this would also apply to the concept of a Cleric should it ever come up.)
Again, for those who kinda missed the point:
I am possibly looking to play this character in a 1v1 tourney fighting round robin, and just trying to make sure that it is actually rules legal.
I would never try to bring such cheese to an actual game.
-----------------
Lelomenia:
"A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description."
The ability text:
Whenever all three hags of a particular coven are within 10 feet of one another, all three of them can work together to use any of the following spell-like abilities: animate dead, baleful polymorph (DC 18), blight (DC 17), bestow curse (DC 17), clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster (DC 17), commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana (DC 18), reincarnate, speak with dead, veil (DC 19), vision.
All three hags must take a full-round action to take part in this form of cooperative magic.
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The ability says as a full-round action.
Is your Tournement about cheese? Is everyone on the same page on this? If not, what you are doing is not cheese, but cheating, This is a contest we are talking about after all, are we all knowingly playing by the same rules? You do know that in most tournaments you don't pre-buff before the actual fight, and your entire concept is effectivly pre-buffing. I rather think it is you who are missing the point.
Actually sorry if this offends.
Again, for those who kinda missed the point:
I am possibly looking to play this character in a 1v1 tourney fighting round robin, and just trying to make sure that it is actually rules legal.
I would never try to bring such cheese to an actual game.
-----------------
Lelomenia:
"A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description."
The ability text:
Whenever all three hags of a particular coven are within 10 feet of one another, all three of them can work together to use any of the following spell-like abilities: animate dead, baleful polymorph (DC 18), blight (DC 17), bestow curse (DC 17), clairaudience/clairvoyance, charm monster (DC 17), commune, control weather, dream, forcecage, mind blank, mirage arcana (DC 18), reincarnate, speak with dead, veil (DC 19), vision.
All three hags must take a full-round action to take part in this form of cooperative magic.
------------------
The ability says as a full-round action.
You should read the ability text again. Simulacrum is not a part of the list. Therefore it takes the full 12 hrs to cast.
When a winter hag joins a coven, the coven adds sculpt simulacrum and simulacrum to its spell-like abilities, and any member within 1 mile of the winter hag gains icewalking and snow vision.
Check out the Simulacrum thread. Some previous posts to mine have James Jacobs' thoughts on the spell, as well as many questions answered.
@Scott Wilhelm: The requirement for a piece of the creature was 2nd ed, not 3.X or PF.
The hag's CL 5 is not relevant. The coven ability (CL 9) overrides it, and the PC's CL 10 overrides that. Also, as I mentioned above there is a 4 HD hag that gets the full coven, so having only 5 HD is no reason to prohibit coven abilities.
As to having the simulacrum hag anchor a coven, see the simulacrum thread. It is pretty clear the simulacrum counts as a hag.
@Ultrace: Witches do not get their powers from a patron. They get spell knowlege only.
The simulacrum spell does not also make a simulacrum of the familiar. A witch without a familiar, but with the coven hex still counts for the Aid Another. They cannot regain spells, but witch spells are not being used in this exploit.
@DMoogle: Simulacrum still requires the sculpture in snow. This will take time to make, and requires a lot of snow as well.
/cevah
When a winter hag joins a coven, the coven adds sculpt simulacrum and simulacrum to its spell-like abilities, and any member within 1 mile of the winter hag gains icewalking and snow vision.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Second issue I see is how do you target anything in this tornament with thousands of bats flying around you 30 feet in each direction? That should be considered hard cover preventing you from targeting any opponent.
When a winter hag joins a coven, the coven adds sculpt simulacrum and simulacrum to its spell-like abilities, and any member within 1 mile of the winter hag gains icewalking and snow vision.Thanks for clearing that up.
Second issue I see is how do you target anything in this tornament with thousands of bats flying around you 30 feet in each direction? That should be considered hard cover preventing you from targeting any opponent.
The selected spell is instant, but gives the caster a touch attack they can use CL times. So after casting the spell, they leave the swarm.
There are plenty of spell that either enhance the caster, or target all enemies in range, or otherwise handle the situation.
/cevah
I think that you could do some additional CL boosts if you use the spell Sharesister in a recursive method. Maybe someday I will calculate it.
I realized another possible bump to CL.
The feat Coven Caster on a changeling witch with the coven hex can bump the CL of all coven members within 30' by 1. Not sure if this stacks with others doing this. But what this can do is boost the CL of the witches casting Sharesister, allowing higher bonuses by that spell.
/cevah
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If I were the GM here I'd rule that it's impossible to coordinate tens of thousands of intelligent entities on the time span of a six second round. Especially as some of them are simulacrums made by other simulacrums, you only have indirect control and there's no way you're issuing verbal instructions with the noise of 20,000+ bats. Large groups of bats can get up to 140 decibels in real life, and those are orders of magnitude fewer than tens of thousands. That's the same as being 100 feet away from a jet engine.
So I'd go with "you can only issue commands to a few of them per round" if I wanted to shut this down. Also, you're permanently deaf from the constant noise.