The build doesn’t need to be viable, it just needs Sense Motive. I’d like it to come together before level 12, if at all possible.
You guys are the best.
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I did a Snake Style build that got to +41 Sense Motive at 6th level, so that might be a good place to start. 74 is still a long way off, though.
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Does it have to be a +74, or do you have to reliably beat a DC 75 bluff check (or something similar)?
I don't have anything that can get there yet, but 3 levels of Investigator gets you the EXPANDED INSPIRATION which lets you add 1d6 to all sense motive rolls (not amazing ... yet).
5 levels of investigator gets you the EMPATHY talent, which lets you roll twice and take the better result. It also lets you roll your Inspiration twice and take the better result there. This ups your average roll from 10.5 to ~17 (slightly guessing this number). The real draw though is that it makes the low rolls MUCH less likely to happen (minimum roll is now a 2, but there's only a 1/14400 chance of rolling it).
Level 7 would get you the AMAZING INSPIRATION talent (roll d8's instead of d6's), and the Half-Elf favoured class bonus would net you another +3 to the roll at level 12 (for an average roll of ~23 I think).
I'm sure there are other classes that will give better bonuses, but a 3/5/7 level "dip" might be worth it (my thoughts are that 5 levels adds enough to be worth it, more probably doesn't).
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Managed to reach it by stealing some things from Foeclan's build. Couldn't find the Spectacles of Thought-Seeing though.
It didn't need to be PFS legal, right?
Lv 10 Ratfolk, starting with 16 Wisdom.
Vigilante 1 / Inquisitor 9
Thoughtful Wish-Maker regional trait: +2
Wisdom (22): +6
Class+Skill: 13
Alertness: +4
Skill Focus: +6
Unarmed Strike->Snake Style: +2
Vigilante (Social Grace): +4
Inquisitor (Stern Gaze): +4 Morale
Inquisitor FCB: +4
Items:
Inquisitor's Monocle: +5 Competence (6,800)
Soul Scribe Quill: +5 Profane, 10 Minutes/HD (4,500)
Gossiper's Gourd: +5 Insight, 1 Hour (12,500)
Headband of Wisdom +4 (16,000)
Total Gold Cost: 39,800/62,000
Spells:
Focused Scrutiny: +10 (Lv 2)
Discovery Torch: +2 Enhancement (Lv 2)
***
Unbuffed Sense Motive: +52
Buffed Sense Motive (1 hour once per day): +74
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I guess we should get the basics outbof the way as well.
Race: Anything with a +2 WIS.
Age: Venerable (+3 INT/WIS/CHA, -6 STR/DEX/CON)
Put an 18 in WIS at level 1 (before race/age modifiers)
Put points in WIS at levels 4/8/12.
Skill Focus: Sense Motive (+6)
Alertness (+4)
Class Skill (+3)
12 skill ranks
That should net you a +33 by level 12 and should be possible on any build.
Why?
Thank you! :D
Why?
I’m running another game for a long-retired character, a fellow by the name of Silvertongue. Silvertongue games are always a blast, since the eponymous character is so ridiculously good at bluff that he regularly gets away with truly impossible lies. The player retired the character after impersonating a deity and taking over a city-state.
Said player expressed interest in playing the character again, and so here we are. Last time Silvertongue graced a game table, there was not a single person on his level; the closest thing he had to a personal nemesis thought Silvertongue her closest of confederates. This time, there’ll be one sane ratfolk who sees through the madness - one ratfolk against the world, to defend it! It’ll be interesting.
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Managed to reach it by stealing some things from Foeclan's build. Couldn't find the Spectacles of Thought-Seeing though.
They're a scaling item, so I think that puts them in Pathfinder Unchained. By 12th level they're a +8 to Sense Motive, so that's even better.
Sorry, AA, your Silvertongue nemesis can only be as powerful as you say because of GM complicity, which no point buy can overcome. You can't beat the writers.
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Favored Enemy bonuses are untyped, so get that, then all the gear that pumps it.
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so, I can get a +74 at 10th level. Going lower then 10th drops the bonus considerably because you lose the half the bonuses from skill focus and alertness.
Twinned Profiler (Summoner/Vigilante/Investigator)
Key concepts: A character with maximized Sense Motive
Key Stat: Wisdom (18+2)
Race: Half-elf
Racial Trait: Adaptive
Favored Class: Investigator
Trait: Mutant Eye or Thoughtful Wish-Maker
Classes: Summoner(1), Vigilante(1), Investigator(8)
Archetypes: Twinned Summoner(Summoner), Profiler(Investigator)
Eidolon Traits: Skilled (Sense Motive), Shared Evolution
Social Talent: Social Grace
Key Feats: Skill Focus(Sense Motive)(1st), Defiant Luck(1st), Inexplicable Luck(3rd), Alertness(5th), Imp. Unarmed Strike(7th), Snake Style(9th)
Key Gear: Inquisitor’s Monocle(6,800), Soul Scribe Quill(4,500), Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2(4,000)
Total Cost: 15,300gp
Spells: True Skill
Total Bonus: +8 skilled (racial), +6 (stat), +2 trait (trait), +3 prof bonus, +10 ranks, +8 Inex luck (untyped), +4 expert profiler(untyped), +4 Alertness(untyped), +6 S. Focus(untyped), +2 Snake Style(untyped) +4 Social Grace (untyped), +3(min on 1d6+2 inspiration),+5 monocle (competence), +5 Quill (profane), +4 True skill(insight) = Total of +74 to +79
Unbuffed your bonus is +57 to +62 depending on your inspiration roll
@LordKailas
You should probably mention that both Inexplicable Luck and True Skill are spent after one use, making them a bit unreliable in prolonged social situations.
But Twinned Summoner for the +8 racial bonus is a great find.
@LordKailas
You should probably mention that both Inexplicable Luck and True Skill are spent after one use, making them a bit unreliable in prolonged social situations.
But Twinned Summoner for the +8 racial bonus is a great find.
yeah, I started putting it together after only seeing the initial post yesterday. So, I wasn't sure of the circumstances for the check, if the OP needed the bonus all the time or as just a one time bonus. I wasn't able to get around to finishing it until today. I'll see if there's a way to retool things with the slant that the character needs to have a +74 all the time without temporary buffs. So things like inexplicable luck and true skill will have to go. On the the plus side it means I have more feats to work with.
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This is my revised build. It gives a minimum bonus of +74 without buffing.
Key concepts: A character with maximized Sense Motive
Key Stat: Wisdom (18+2)
Deity: Gruhastha
Race: Half-elf
Racial Trait: Adaptive
Favored Class: Investigator
Traits: Mutant Eye or Thoughtful Wish-Maker and Fate’s Favored and Extreme mood swings (will need to take a drawback)
Eidolon Traits: Skilled (Sense Motive), Shared Evolution
Class: Summoner(1), Vigilante(1), Investigator(10)
Social Talent: Social Grace
Archetype: Twinned Summoner(Summoner), Profiler(Investigator)
Key Feats: Skill Focus(Sense Motive)(1st), Deific Obedience (1st),Dedicated Adversary(3rd), Alertness(5th), Imp. Unarmed Strike(7th), Snake Style(9th), Gruesome Butcher(11th)[must be treated as completed]
Key Gear: Inquisitor’s Monocle(6,800), Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6(36,000), Ioun Gauntlet with cracked Tourmaline Sphere(1,600+800), flawed pale green prism(28,000), Stone of Good luck(20,000)
Total Cost: 93,200gp
Total Bonus: +8 skilled (racial), +8 (stat), +5 monocle (competence), +2 trait (trait), +3 prof bonus, +12 ranks, +2 obedience (sacred), +2 ded adv(untyped), +5 expert profiler(untyped), +4 Alertness(untyped), +6 S. Focus(untyped), +2 Snake Style(untyped), +2 G. Butcher(untyped), +4 Social Grace (untyped), +3(min on 1d6+2 inspiration), +1 gauntlet(enhancement), +2 Ioun stone(morale), +2 luck stone(luck) = Total of +74
:D
Thanks!
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Maybe just make prodigious use of the Discern Lies spell?
Isn't there a Paladin or Inquisitor archetype that has a supernatural means of seeing through lies?
Magic trumps skill rolls 99% of the time.
**edit** The inquisitor can use Discern Lies as a class ability starting at level 5...sounds like an ideal nemesis for a bluff focused character.
Also look into the Inheritor's Crusader prestige class, it has an ability called Sword Against Injustice that might interest you.
Also look into the Inheritor's Crusader prestige class, it has an ability called Sword Against Injustice that might interest you.
Sword Against Injustice isn't a great ability here. Unless you've already discerned that they're lying you're unlikely to be in a position to use this.
Destroyer of Tyranny (another Inheritor's Crusader ability) could be good though. It requires some GM discretion, but the ability says it can be used to give saving throws vs beliefs brought about by trickery.
Silvertongue wouldn't have made it this far if a single zone of truth or discern lies would give up the game. The problems facing a spellcaster over reliant on magical lie detection are manifold - the first and most obvious one being that they have to suspect Silvertongue of lying or having motive to lie, before casting their spell. The second one being a will save, which Silvertongue is pretty good at, it being a good save for many of his classes and he having been built before Unchained introduced fractional save increases. And then he's got his Rakshasa bloodline power.
Which isn't to say that a creative, persistent, or handwavey GM couldn't get him with such truth-detecting magic - but it sounds a lot more fun to engage Silvertongue as an equal, and actually roll the die for Sense Motive!
I think that's the point. He's going to be the one guy who knows the truth but noone will believe him. That's his character schtick (and Silvertongue sounds like the kind of guy who would mess with him rather than get him lynched - that's how I'd play it anyway).
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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The inquisitor can use Discern Lies as a class ability starting at level 5...sounds like an ideal nemesis for a bluff focused character.
The issue there is that discern lies is Will negates, and as a SLA, the save DC is going to be Cha based which is not a usual good stat for inquisitors.
Who needs zone of truth or discern lies when a duel cursed oracle/mesmerist can just color spray for roll 2 or 3 d20 take the lowest with 2-3 forced rerolls if they pass then prod the mind while he is unconscious for no save(at least I'm pretty sure I read that will saves while unconscious auto fail.)
That's not true. You count as "willing" for things that only work on willing subjects but with no save (like Teleport), but if there's a save you still get it when unconscious. There are a few spells that state you autofail while under their effect (like Enter Image) and that might have been inspired by someone mistakenly believing that's the usual unconscious/helpless rule, but it's not.
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Hey, that's going to be nice reference thread for all the "PF1 skill system ain't borked, it's impossible to have more than +20 to a skill at level 10, there's no way you can make massive differences in skills without cheating" people.The real problem is that to get that high a bonus you lost most if not all your combat ability and a large chunk of wealth, for a skill that's honestly meh. That character might do fine as a Judge NPC, but for an actual player you will probably die or feel useless for 90% of the adventure.
The +52 Vig/Inq above is perfectly playable, has WBL to spare, didn't blow her feats and didn't lose any of her combat ability.
@Gorbacz
Well, it did spend four feats and multiclass a 6th lv caster, so some sacrifices were made.
I'd probably go straight Inquisitor and be more mindful of my cash/feats if I played this character, so here's what I'd call perfectly playable.
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
Ability score and background:
Wisdom (20): +5
Market Dweller alternate racial trait: +2
Thoughtful Wish-Maker regional trait: +2
Class bonuses and feats:
Class Skill + Skill Ranks: 13
Inquisitor (Stern Gaze): +5 Morale
Inquisitor FCB: +5
Skill Focus: +6
Items:
Inquisitor's Monocle: +5 Competence (6,800)
Headband of Wisdom +2 (4,000)
Total Gold Cost: 10,800/62,000
Spells:
Focused Scrutiny: +10 (Lv 2)
Discovery Torch: +2 Enhancement (Lv 2)
***
1/5 feats used, and saving the gold spent on the Gourd/Quill (and +4 Headband).
Unbuffed Sense Motive: +43
Buffed with Inquisitor spells: +55
Which feat did you use Wonderstell? Skill focus? You listed everything else but I don’t see the feat.
Yup. Skill Focus. So with zero feat investment, that's still a +37 modifier and +49 with spells.
The +74 build also had Alertness, IUS and Snake Style, which I would never take in addition to Skill Focus if I actually wanted to contribute in combat.
The number of feats you jeed to be "effective" in combat varies largely on your combat style. If you want to go archery or TWF then you're gonna need feats. If you want tonhit people with a greatsword then you pretty much only need Power Attack. Combat Reflexes, Power Attack and Improved Critical will give you enough damage that most parties will be happy to have you, so now you have a bunch of free feats to spend on other things.
Hey, that's going to be nice reference thread for all the "PF1 skill system ain't borked, it's impossible to have more than +20 to a skill at level 10, there's no way you can make massive differences in skills without cheating" people.The real problem is that to get that high a bonus you lost most if not all your combat ability and a large chunk of wealth, for a skill that's honestly meh. That character might do fine as a Judge NPC, but for an actual player you will probably die or feel useless for 90% of the adventure.
Given the OP asked for a build that had a +74 bonus and specifically stated that they didn't care if the build was actually viable as a character tells me the character is being used as an NPC or for a one shot adventure. Seems weird to criticize a build on it's viability when the OP stated that viability didn't matter. It's like criticizing a wizard build because said wizard can't make a DC 15 swim check.
As for the build its self, it may not be optimized for combat but that's different from being ineffective in combat. 10 levels in any class should make for a playable character regardless what feats are chosen. If not, that's a sign that the class is bad.
5 levels of investigator gets you the EMPATHY talent, which lets you roll twice and take the better result. It also lets you roll your Inspiration twice and take the better result there. This ups your average roll from 10.5 to ~17 (slightly guessing this number). The real draw though is that it makes the low rolls MUCH less likely to happen (minimum roll is now a 2, but there's only a 1/14400 chance of rolling it).
The actual average goes from 10.5 to 13.825.
The minimum is still 1, not 2, and the chance is 1 in 400 [20 squared].Your 14400 is the square of 120, so I have no idea what kind of die you are using. :-)
/cevah
@Cevah
It's the combined chance of rolling a natural 1 on both your d20 and inspiration when you roll twice for both.
I think 17 is MrCharisma's estimated average roll with both the d20 and Inspiration, which is why it's so high. Should be a bit over 18.
======
While giving the finishing touches to the Inquisitor build, I managed to find a very thematically relevant archetype. The Oathkeeper.
The first level power is divine insurance that everyone follows any agreement that has your seal on it, with no duration or limitation on the number of agreements you can make. If they break it, they take a penalty to all d20 rolls equal to your wisdom modifier for weeks at a time, and you can track them as per Discern Location. They'll also be branded as traitors with marks on their hands and neck, and these penalties can only be removed prematurely with a Miracle or Wish spell.
Best part? No saving throw or Spell Resistance. If they violate the terms, they're toast.
Probably gonna make this my go-to character whenever I play with a "Chaotic Neutral" rogue.
@Wonderstell: My bad. I did not realize tha d6 was in the calc.
Average goes from 14 (10.5+3.5) to 18.297 (13.825+4.472).
Since MrCharisma referenced 10.5 I assumed only the d20.
/cevah
@Wonderstell: My bad. I did not realize tha d6 was in the calc.
Average goes from 14 (10.5+3.5) to 18.297 (13.825+4.472).
Since MrCharisma referenced 10.5 I assumed only the d20./cevah
Yeah sorry if that wasn't clear. I was trying to say that there are ways of improving your roll without adding static bonuses. So if you're getting +55 from static bonuses and finding it hard to add more you can use something like "+1d6" or "Roll twice" to increase your odds of success. The comparison (10.5 vs 17) was saying that you're getting ~+6.5 bonus from 5 levels of Investigator. Turns out it was ~+7.8 (I was basically guessing, I think I was pretty close).
It also drastically reduces the lower rolls, which can be a big draw. Eg:
Using 1d20, Chance of rolling:
1 = 1/20 = 5%
2 = 1/20 = 5%
3 = 1/20 = 5%
etc
Using 2d20 (keep the highest), Chance of rolling:
1 = 1/400 = 0.25%
2 = 3/400 = 0.75%
3 = 6/400 = 1.5%
4 = 10/400 = 2.5%
So while 1d20 has a 95% chance to roll a 2 or higher, 2d20 (keep highest) has a 95% chance to roll a 5 or higher.
Adding the 1d6, or 2d6 (keep highest) increases this further.
Using 1d20+1d6 (3 level dip in Investigator), Chance of Rolling:
1 = 0/120 = 0%
2 = 1/120 = 0.833%
3 = 2/120 = 1.667%
4 = 6/120 = 5%
This dip alone means you have a 92.5% chance of rolling 5 or higher.
Using 2d20 (keep the highest) + 2d6 (keep highest), Chance of rolling:
1 = 0/14400 = 0%
2 = 1/14400 = 0.007%
3 = 6/14400 = 0.042%
4 = 19/14400 = 0.132%
5 = 44/14400 = 0.306%
6 = 85/14400 = 0.590%
7 = 146/14400 = 1.014%
8 = 200/14400 = 1.389%
9 = 290/14400 = 2.014%
That's a 791/14400 chance of rolling 9 or lower, or ~5.93%. This leaves you with ~94.07% chance of rolling a 10 or higher. So while the average increase might not sound as impressive (~+7.8 for a 5 level "dip"), the chance of rolling poorly almost goes away entirely. For opposed rolls this can be game-changing.
Using 2d20 (keep the highest), Chance of rolling:
1 = 1/400 = 0.25%
2 = 3/400 = 0.75%
3 = 6/400 = 1.5%
4 = 10/400 = 2.5%So while 1d20 has a 95% chance to roll a 2 or higher, 2d20 (keep highest) has a 95% chance to roll a 5 or higher.
Adding the 1d6, or 2d6 (keep highest) increases this further.
Using 1d20+1d6 (3 level dip in Investigator), Chance of Rolling:
1 = 0/120 = 0%
2 = 1/120 = 0.833%
3 = 2/120 = 1.667%
4 = 6/120 = 5%This dip alone means you have a 92.5% chance of rolling 5 or higher.
Using 2d20 (keep the highest) + 2d6 (keep highest), Chance of rolling:
1 = 0/14400 = 0%
2 = 1/14400 = 0.007%
3 = 6/14400 = 0.042%
4 = 19/14400 = 0.132%
5 = 44/14400 = 0.306%
6 = 85/14400 = 0.590%
7 = 146/14400 = 1.014%
8 = 200/14400 = 1.389%
9 = 290/14400 = 2.014%That's a 791/14400 chance of rolling 9 or lower, or ~5.93% . This leaves you with ~94.07% chance of rolling a 10 or higher. So while the average increase might not sound as impressive (~+7.8 for a 5 level "dip"), the chance of rolling poorly almost goes away entirely. For opposed rolls this can be game-changing.
Added some math fixes.
/cevah
Using 2d20 (keep the highest), Chance of rolling:
1 = 1/400 = 0.25%
2 = 3/400 = 0.75%
3 = 6/400 = 1.5%
4 = 10/400 = 2.5%So while 1d20 has a 95% chance to roll a 2 or higher, 2d20 (keep highest) has a 95% chance to roll a 5 or higher.
Derp. You know I knew the equation too, coz I did it correctly further down (mostly). That's just silly of me.
Adding the 1d6, or 2d6 (keep highest) increases this further.
Using 1d20+1d6 (3 level dip in Investigator), Chance of Rolling:
1 = 0/120 = 0%
2 = 1/120 = 0.833%
3 = 2/120 = 1.667% <- I don't even know -_-
4 = 6/120 = 5%This dip alone means you have a 92.5% chance of rolling 5 or higher.
Using 2d20 (keep the highest) + 2d6 (keep highest), Chance of rolling:
1 = 0/14400 = 0%
2 = 1/14400 = 0.007%
3 = 6/14400 = 0.042%
4 = 19/14400 = 0.132%
5 = 44/14400 = 0.306%
6 = 85/14400 = 0.590%
7 = 146/14400 = 1.014%
8 = 200/14400 = 1.389% <- I'll believe you on this one, that's hard to do in your head.
9 = 290/14400 = 2.014%That's a 791/14400 chance of rolling 9 or lower, or ~5.93% . This leaves you with ~94.07% chance of rolling a 10 or higher. So while the average increase might not sound as impressive (~+7.8 for a 5 level "dip"), the chance of rolling poorly almost goes away entirely. For opposed rolls this can be game-changing.
Added some math fixes.
/cevah
Yeah once again I'm trying to do this without a pen and paper. The point should still be valid though, I hope the intent at least was clearer this time.
Yeah once again I'm trying to do this without a pen and paper. The point should still be valid though, I hope the intent at least was clearer this time.
I didn't use pen and paper either.
..
.
A spreadsheet is so much easier. :-)
/cevah
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Although it may not fit what is being asked exactly, a build near and dear to my heart is probably the best route to being able to succeed at the check at all at the earliest possible level. However, it heavily relies on 1/day abilities or short duration buffs. The core is basically Empiricist Investigator + Lore Oracle Seer to apply Focused Trance to a bunch of things.
Half Elf Investigator (Empiricist) 4/Lore Oracle (seer) 1/Paladin 1
+6 Ranks
+3 Class Skill
+5 Int
+10 Competence [Natural Divination]
+20 Circumstance [Focused Trance]
+3 Skill Focus
+2 Alertness
+2 Trait Thoughtful Wish Maker
+1 Racial Trait Wary
+1d6+1 Inspiration [FCB]
+10 Sacred [Unsanctioned Detection]
+10 Focused Scrutiny
Feats: Extra Revelation, Skill Focus, Alertness, Unsanctioned Detection
That gets you to a +73+1d6, so you can roll up to a 99 at level 6 once per day.
^---- I like this build.
That's an awesome build -- although Natural Divination does seem to be dependent upon there being a flock of birds nearby, and Focused Trance requires the BBEG amenable to cooling his heels for five rounds while your eyeballs are spinning.
Very true. Focused Trance is very much an out of combat sort of thing, and Natural Divination does have some mild RP fluff to satisfy, which you will occasionally be unable to do (and which the GM can disable at will, at lower levels especially). You take the Natural Divination at the beginning of the day and use the bonus later though, so its not too constraining. The combo is really probably best for disable device checks; you can potentially disable something up to DC 67 at level 3 without any extra trait, feat or magic item investments. Focused Trance is also really good for more or less automatically passing out of combat linguistics and knowledge checks, but that's kind of the default use case.
My -1 PFS character is a Lore Oracle (Seer). She isn't splashing Empiricist, but I absolutely do love Focused Trance and Natural Divination. Once I realized how many skills you suddenly become able to almost automatically pass when comboed with Empiricist, it made me want to run one some day. Since the relevant abilities come online at levels 1 and 2, you can splash either into the other build to make it work too, or add the three level package to anything that might care about enormous out of combat skill check results.