I have to ask up front: Are you aware of the serious imbalance in the current party composition? I don't know how your game table plays, but there are some serious vulnerabilities present with your current layout. If you want a suggestion on how to address that, let me know and I'll offer advice.
As for the wizard versus sorcerer bit, unless you really have a preference either way, I'd say go with an Arcanist and get the best of both worlds. You can even take an archetype (Blade Adept) to get a black blade (like a magus) and enter into the Eldritch Knight prestige class in order to build your melee presence. Maybe dip into Dragon Disciple as well. You'll just need to pick exploits that run off caster level, and make sure you get the exploit to use your caster level to determine the power of your blade.
From what I can see, you have at least two dedicated front line combatants, possibly a third depending if the ranger is an archer, switch hitter, or melee as well. You have ZERO arcane support/control, ZERO divine support/control/healing, and little to zero actual skilled characters (traps, party faces, knowledge buffs, etc). All I can see when I see that kind of layout is a group that tries to treat every battle like a nail, and hammer it in with sheer physical damage.
Now, you can build fairly balanced parties with the right kinds of archetypes in Pathfinder, even with the classes you listed (Maybe a spellcasting fighter, a barbarian of any sort, and an archery ranger) but the lack of a divine support role is going to be extremely difficult to overcome, especially when dealing with status removal.
As for going with Magus, you can do that but it won't address the issue with arcane control. Magus are intended to be damage dealers, using magic to supplement their attacks. You already have plenty of people who can take care of that.
An Arcanist is just a hybrid of wizard and sorcerer. It has a book like a wizard and prepares spells, but casts them spontaneously like a sorcerer. They get less spells per day but vastly more spells known than a sorcerer. They also get exploits that help customize your intended role. The biggest help to you is that it will open up the arcane support role and let you control the battle field a bit more, as they cast from the wizard/sorcerer list.
As for building the Arcanist, that depends entirely on how you want to approach it. Pure spellcasting emphasizes spell DCs, the way I mentioned takes the arcanist a bit outside of its comfort zone in order to melee so spell selection is important and requires a decent handle on the game in order to plan it out well.
Here is a link to the Arcanist so you can familiarize yourself with it: Click me
Just so you know, I am not telling you that you are playing wrong. I am just voicing a concern because I care about you having FUN. Very few people have fun when the party wipes. If you want to play a Magus, go for it.
So the classic four person party in an elfgame like this is a fighter, a wizard, a cleric, and a rogue. Which is not to say that this is the only party, but it covers all the bases.
So generally you want someone who is durable and does HP damage, someone who can do crowd control and magical utility, someone who can keep everyone standing, and someone who is good at skills.
Considering that we already have 3 martials in the party, would you consider playing like an oracle or a cleric instead of an arcane caster? It feels like these folks are going to need quite a bit of patching up. A divine 9-level caster is a lot more comfortable in melee (without polymorphing) than an arcane one is.
Magus is fine, but it's also perfectly possible to build a melee wizard if you prefer. The Magus doesn't have as strong spellcasting power, but does get to fight and cast at the same time so it flows better in combat. Sorcerer vs Wizard is very nuanced and depends on exactly what you want to do. Both are very powerful classes, so take the one that appeals to you and move along.
Given your own stated preferences and your current party composition, I'm going to suggest the following build:
Race: Elf
1 - Fighter - Weapon Finesse, Elven Battle Training
2 - Wizard
3 - Wizard - Elven Battle Style
4 - Wizard
5 - Wizard - Favored Prestige Class
6 - Wizard - Knowledge is Power
7 - Eldritch Knight - Elven Battle Focus, Prestigious Spellcaster
8 - Eldritch Knight
Invest heavily in Intelligence and Dexterity, putting everything left over in constitution. You don't need Str, Cha, or Wis (though make sure not to completely destroy your carrying capacity or will save).
This build uses dexterity for attack rolls, and intelligence for damage, CMB, and CMD. This perfectly plays to the elf and wizard. The elven branched spear is a good weapon choice that gives you a reach attack (works well when flying). Transmutation or Divination are recommended specialization school, while Evocation/Enchantment/Necromancy are the best picks for opposition schools.
What do you mean when you say we have problems with out party composition, i would like to know more.
Fighter, Barbarian, and Ranger all fill very similar roles in combat and leave the party as a whole with a lot of unfilled niches. Your party is already overkilling it when it comes to direct damage output, but has very little to nothing in terms of support, utility, and control. A wizard will provide that.
The build I provided above gives you an adequate melee combat presence with the minimum loss of spellcasting power. It won't handle your party's lack of a divine caster (going divine would fit your party's needs very well here, as well) but you can't be everything at once.
I wonder could a shaman maybe do the job, if so what spirit and how to play them?
Which other divine spellcasters could be good?
Pretty much all divine casters are strong classes. Shaman, Cleric, Oracle, Druid, they're all solid. Divine casters get 3/4 BAB per level rather than the 1/2 BAB that arcane casters get, so as long as you invest heavily into strength you'll be decent in melee without much effort.
The one catch with Shaman is that you need significant investment in Wisdom in order to utilize their hexes (which is the big attraction of the class), which might prevent you from making the necessary investment in strength to be strong in melee. If you're not going to be making use of hexes, then go with Cleric instead.
Could i maybe make a dragon disciple build? Or eldritch knight? (I really like dragons, and being up close and personal)'
Dragon Disciples can be quite powerful; if you want to do it, then using polymorph spells is by far the best approach. However, it will severely restrict the number of spells you learn since you can't take the human sorcerer favored class bonus while leveling up as a dragon disciple. You will also want to take the prestigious spellcaster feat to reclaim the lost spellcasting power, so that will eat up a fair chunk of your feats.
The build itself is fairly straightforward: pump strength and learn a few polymorph spells (you don't need many, and you can retrain old ones once you've outgrown them), then put your feats towards prestigious spellcaster to keep on top of your spellcasting power.
The problem is that i like to go melee, so therefore i wondered if i should maybe go magus. And usually when i play wizard i get quite bored.
Why would you say you get bored when playing a wizard? Do you just miss the melee action a lot? In that case, magus is a good class. It doesn't have the ultimate versatility that a full caster has, but it does good damage, while being able to bring some out of combat options.
Have you considered playing a summoning-type character? The summoner is an obvious choice, but I really like the arcanist with its occultist archetype. If you want to cast, but you also want to mix it up in melee, summoning should scratch that itch.
One thing worth mentioning: Parties where a Skald works are fairly rare, but this is one of them- no one here will decline raging song. Spell Kenning is perhaps the single most versatile utility magic in the game, and would allow you to cover those emergency situations for both arcane and divine magic (but just 1/day). Also, you're pretty good at fighting.
Like everyone in that party is going to love you to death if you can get greater skald's vigor and grand master performer going.
All right, this far i have a wizard build.
Looks solid overall.
Your spell selection could be touched up a little. At 2nd level you could use a general-purpose debuff. Given that Glitterdust and Create Pit are both opposition spells for you, Web might be a good general-purpose debuff. At 3rd level you can drop fireball and lightning bolt; you've got a party with three dedicated front-line damage-dealers, you do not need damage-dealing spells (if you want to heavily invest in it that's another matter, but just casual blasting isn't worth it for you). The Fly and Aqueous Orb spells are two good picks that you're missing. The Elemental Body spell is useless to you due to your low strength score; dump it and replace it with something else. Charm Monster and Greater Invisibility would be top notch picks. Stone Shape is an opposition spell for you, you may want to consider dropping it.
Traits: Reactionary, warrior of old, clever wordplay (UMD), Unshacled, Silent hunter, Power hungry (Drawback)
Reactionary doesn't stack with Warrior of Old. If you want uber-initiative, I'd recommend going with a diviner.
Would wizards or sorcerers be better?
Both are top-notch classes with different strengths and weaknesses. It really comes down to preference and whether you'd prefer to be a spontaneous caster or a prepared caster. Depending on exactly what you have in mind one might be better than the other, but in general they can fulfill all the same roles as each other. I'm firmly of the opinion that you pick the one that looks more fun, because both are great and can be built to do almost anything well.
Could u give me a build on how to make the dragon disciple like with the eldritch knight above, just with dragon disciple?
With ability scores and such.
Sure thing. Looks like you're running 20 point buy to me, so:
Aasimar Sorcerer
Angelkin (+2 Str/+2 Cha)
Scion of Humanity
Str: 20 (includes DD bonus)
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Int: 7
Wis: 8
Cha: 20
levels 1-3 and 6-8, take skill points as favored class bonus
levels 4-5 take a bonus 1st level spell known
Draconic (Red) Bloodline
Take the Blood Havoc bloodline mutation in place of your 1st level power (claws)
1 - Sorcerer - Cunning (+1 skill rank/level)
2 - Sorcerer
3 - Sorcerer - Toughness
4 - Sorcerer
5 - Sorcerer - Favored Prestige Class (Dragon Disciple)
6 - Dragon Disciple
7 - Dragon Disciple - Prestigious Spellcaster (Dragon Disciple)
8 - Dragon Disciple
Spells known:
0th (8): Light, Mending, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Open/Close
1st (8): Mage Armor, Shield, Protection from Evil, Enlarge Person, Grease, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Comprehend Language
2nd (4): Resist Energy, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Glitterdust
3rd (2): Haste, Fireball
4th (1): Beast Shape II
This gives you 4 uses of Beast Shape II per day (5 if you can somehow get a +6 charisma headband), a fireball spell that deals 8d8+16 damage, and a good selection of defensive and utility spells in the lower levels. You can swap out the type of dragon, but do keep in mind you'll need to find an elemental spell that matches your type and fireball is by far the most convenient. Haste is one of the best buff spells in the game, and even better than usual due to all the front-liners in your party. I do wish I could fit the Fly spell in there as well, but you can pick that up next level. For traits you can pick whatever you like; Magical Lineage is a good choice to boost fireball, but you can just leave it as is and it'll be fine. When you shapeshift you'll have 24 strength (plus any you get from your magic belt) for some wickedly powerful attacks. This build will be very skill-starved, which is why it takes skill ranks instead of HP as favored class bonus.
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Regarding Party Balance, The Forge of Combat applies Sun Tzu to Pathfinder. Apply those principles and your party will triumph. Fail to apply those principles and you will be defeated unless your GM is entirely too forgiving.
Wizard is a good choice to help you party. With luck, you can save your party from the healbot's curse. See, this GM has observed that parties with a healbot tend to become less competent. The presence of a healbot enables foolish behavior and tactics that, in the absence of a healbot, would rightfully be seen as stupid and insane. In short, parties with a healbot tend to take a lot of damage they could avoid, because there's little or no incentive to avoid taking damage. The presence of a healbot usually leads to self-reinforcing recklessly foolish behavior.
There are lots of ways to play a wizard. That imbalanced party needs Battlefield Control even more than it needs Support. Wizards are great at Battlefield Control [Wizard Guide: Being a God]. Wizards are also pretty good at blowing ^%$^% up.
Once your wizard is accomplished at Battlefield Control your party will be much tougher and more effective. If you take the Blockbuster approach they will fear and respect you. If you take the God Wizard approach they will think that they were responsible for the win and will usually not recognize your contributions.
Either way, once you become skilled at mitigating incoming damage your party can do away with the healbot. Get your Ranger a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or three and you should be good for healing. Once the healbot is gone your team can become truly effective.
Suggestion to OP: Next time one of those PCs dies, perhaps suggest that the replacement PC be good at Support.
Did you account for the boosts at level 4 and 8
Just for fun, I made those stats with bonuses from angelkin, dd and leveling and ended up with 2 points left over.
Make your strength and charisma odd before applying the leveling bonuses.
Dual talent human would work, but I don’t like losing the feat and skill. Though, starting at 8 will make the missing feat a lot less noticeable.
Did you account for the boosts at level 4 and 8
Starting scores are 16/12/12/7/8/16
+2 str, +2 cha racial
+2 str from DD
+2 cha from level-up
I somehow lost 2 points in there somewhere when doing the point buy. Nowhere they really fit other than raising Wis to 10, though, but that's still +1 will save and +1 perception so that's definitely nothing to scoff at.
Dual Talent human is an alternative, but as Melkiador says it's a bit underwhelming since you get literally nothing else. Still, the build will function and getting the Str/Cha ability score combination is valuable enough to be worth it.
Alternately, you could just give up on charisma and accept poor offensiv spell power. Drop your charisma down to 13 (raise it with headbands to meet the minimum requirement to cast spells), put the savings into Con and Dex, put the level-up bonuses into Str and your human racial bonus in Str, then replace Glitterdust and Fireball with spells that don't call for DC's (See Invisibility and Fly would be good picks). You can take Scorching Ray if you still want a damage-dealing spell, since it doesn't call for a save. This approach would give up on spells that call for DC's in order to free up more points for physical ability scores.
Back to the fact that aasimars arent allowed, which race would otherwise work?
Dual Talent human, as Melkiador suggests, would work just fine.
And tbh i prefer int over wisdom..
You'd actually gain nothing from putting it in Intelligence.
Both DD and Sorcerer give 2+int skill ranks per level. Since there's a minimum of 1/level, you lose nothing from dropping from an 8 to a 7. You'd need to raise it up to 10 in order to gain more skill points.
I guess he could drop the wisdom to 7 instead. But I’d personally rather have the wisdom.
I guess he could drop the wisdom to 7 instead. But I’d personally rather have the wisdom.
You could take Iron Will to cancel out the save penalty, if you really wanted to go this route, but given that you have Perception as a class skill due to Draconic bloodline you do have other things wisdom is good for.
Wouldnt it be good to take croosblooded and then the orc bloodline too, by doing this my strength would go even higher
Crossblooded is bad; the loss of spells known isn't worth it (you won't be able to know Beast Shape II until 9th level) and makes for a character that's too one-dimensional.
With respect to Orc Bloodline specifically the bonus it gets is an Inherent bonus, meaning it doesn't stack with Strength-boosting tomes. It's not bad, since at very least it saves you a lot of money, but it's not a game-changer since it can be duplicated by spending cash.
With that much melee I would avoid it tbh...nothing worse then spending a round or two to try to get a swing in..let them do the rushing :P
As everyone mentioned there are a lot of holes:
The arcanist seems complicated but really it isn't that bad...it is however very flexible. For example a wizard prepares spells but didn't prepare *that* spell or the sorcerer can cast x spells..but doesn't know *that* spell. The arcanist allows you to prepare spells and then cast them however you want..with quick study you can swap a spell from your spellbook. The occultist archetype is really nice...summons is a nice way to scratch the melee itch and them dying wont matter..later on you can start summoning things that will cast spells for you.
A skald would be a really nice fit..basically a barbarian bard...you could be a decent face of the party, know a little of everything..when the party accepts your inspired rage they would get +4 str and con +3 wis (-1AC) and you give them 2 rage powers (by all that is healing take celestial totem lesser)
A shaman is nice, especially if you want to debuff or buff the party..your gm would hate the misfortune hex :)
Or heck go archer (vote for inquisitor) have some divine spells and destroy things before the party gets to them :) Nice thing about being a archer is you can pick your targets..the wizard in the back or your bbn friend serious hurt someone that you need to drop asap.
Sorry was working when I read this and couldn't reply. But really if you are thinking caster I would look at the arcanist again
Out of curiosity, why do you get bored playing full magic users? I tend to be the opposite and gravitate towards magic users as what little I've tried of martial characters I've found to be boring. That said I will be giving the cavalier (Order of the Dragon and Constable archetype) a go in a level 10-17 campaign and while I'm trying to be optimistic it's a bit of a challenge; consider that on my next level a get a feat (likely Greater Trip) and Instant Order, they just don't excite me as much as the prospect of getting 6th level spells.
Personally with the aforementioned party composition I'd go witch (my answer to everything tbh) as they kind of straddle the arcane/divine spells gap and hexes mean you should always have something to do even if you run out of spells. I might also try to find a way to get Trapfinding if no one else has it.
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Given party composition, I recommend a summoning reach-cleric. You'll get the melee action you crave making AoOs on enemy actions, and rolling dice with your critters.
Hmm, what about eldritch heritage?
You'd need improved eldritch heritage, which isn't available until 11th level. Since you really, really want to take Prestigious Spellcaster a second time as your 11th level feat, that means you aren't getting it until 13th level. Even then it's going to cost you three feats to get it so you'd need to drop something for skill focus and take the first eldritch heritage feat as your 9th level feat. This is doable, but personally I'd suggest going for metamagic feats instead.
Also, a minor correction: this build needs Spell Focus (Evocation) in order to apply the Blood Havoc bonus to the fireball spell. Toughness is the easiest option to drop, but if you prefer you can just drop Blood Havoc (your fireball will be 8d6+8 instead of 8d6+16 in that case).
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@Magdyyret : In support of what Slim Jim said, perhaps have a look at reach tactics. Slim Jim's suggested approach gets you in the thick of melee while also keeping you a full spellcaster.
@Magdyyret : In support of what Slim Jim said, perhaps have a look at reach tactics. Slim Jim's suggested approach gets you in the thick of melee while also keeping you a full spellcaster.
Reach-cleric guide. --It's slightly dated, but casters only get better with time anyway due to available material. For traits, take Accelerated Drinker (so you can drink potions as a move action instead of casting Enlarge as a Cayden Cailean priest).
Be careful not to outshine the rest of the party, as that's easy to do with any summoning concept, especially if your friends aren't power-gamers.
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Heh starting to feel like I'm talking to myself (as in someone with similar taste, sorry no caffeine yet) The reach cleric is really nice, but as you noticed skills are lacking. You can apply the concept to other classes. Heck my skald is a reach build, basically any caster type that is doing something as a standard action and hoping to get some attacks of opp. So yeah skald would check a lot of boxes for you (double check with your friends if they are ok raging)
A inquisitor archer might really be up your ally too. Whacking someone is great, but after playing a archer you will feel godly :) Both classes would allow you to play the knowledge card, which your party is shy in, while giving you the chance to hurt things. The skald would be tweaking the whole party while the inquisitor would be doing massive damage.
The witch is nice, but more a debuff/buffer. If you want more hitting a shaman or hexcrafter magus would be more your thing. If you are interested I can post my level 4 skald or my lvl 11 inquisitor later to give you a better idea, maybe I'm partial but beside them not being a full caster, I think they would help the party greatly.
No one mentioned a rage prophet? The real front line healer? I'm playing one right now, and boy, is it a lot of fun!
I dont think inquisitor, because we already have a ranger going ranged, so i dont wanna steal his role.
I still dont know if i should go Bladebound Hexcrafter Magus, or sorcerer dragon disciple, or other options, i dont think i will play as we already have one, an npc we hired.
So i think i will take an arcane spellcaster of some sort.
Ofc if you got some builds that you think will blow my mind, feel free to link or to write them, ill gladly look into any build ill get. And keep coming with ideas and tips, i really appreciate it!
Half-orc Rage Prophet:
Stats: 16, 12, 16 (14 +1 lvl 4, +1 lvl 8=16), 9, 9, 16 (14 +2 Half-orc=16)1: Barbarian - Power attack
2: Barbarian (Rage power: Moment of Clarity)
3: Oracle (lame Curse, Battle Mystery: Weapon mastery revelation) - Extra Rage power: Strength Surge
4: Oracle
5: Oracle (Maneaver Mastery revelation) - Favorite Prestigue Class
6: Oracle
7: Rage Prophet - Favorite Spellcaster
8: Rage Prophet
No longer fatigued, free weapon focus and trip tree, rage, divine spells, overall bad-assery!!