A ring of planar focus will let you go to a known location on another plane when you cast plane shift. Any of several extremely expensive items will let you use plane shift. The trick then is how to know the location you're going to on the wizard's demiplane; as of Ultimate Intrigue scrying isn't good enough. If you can somehow read the wizard's mind when you find their astral projected body I think that'd do it, but it'd probably take a specialist, not just a rogue.
You need a Wish.
You'd have to dispel the mind blank, which would probably take greater dispel magic and at least one feat (probably also conceal spell or similar) to do reliably. Hence, a specialist spellcaster rather than a rogue.
Vision of Lamashtu can remotely deliver Greater Dispel Magic, but I don’t think it would work via scrolls, and the odds of success would be poor even if you could scroll it.
You need a Wish.
I'm not super familiar with Astral Projection, but would the DISPELLING ATTACK advanced rogue talent be able to dispel the Mind Blank?
I'm asking because I don't know if the Mind Blank would be cast on the projection or the body in suspended animation.
This seems like a good talent to take vs a wizard anyway.
Another thing to consider is spell resistance, Dwarves and Half-Elves can get a scaling SR based on their character level from an alternate trait.
EDIT: I just re-read the question, and most of this might not help. I'll leave it here because the dispelling strike might help you get rid of the mind-blank, so it covers that part of the problem.
Yes and no Mr Charisma. It might well work - mind blank would need to be in effect where the mind is to be useful - but a dispel magic (not greater) is at least 10 points behind on the caster level check. edit: misremembered how it worked, probably only a couple points behind. And it wouldn't exactly be subtle.
Yeah I really wasn't sure if it'd work. I don't normally play full-casters or rogues, so I'm probably not the best at this kind of thing.
You're right, it wouldn't be subtle at all =P
Subtle better be on the list if you want to have an advantage against a mage. Brute force is something a Wizard 20 has in spades.
Reading their mind then getting to their base and knifing the original body before the astral projected one realises there's a problem, that's how to win IMO.
Twist away is the feat you're thinking of. It takes an immediate action and leaves you staggered on the next round. There used to be a way around that last but it got nerfed.
Slippery mind only helps much vs. will saves when your rogue can get in the vicinity of the save DC. That's...hard at 20th level. A wizard can easily be rocking a DC 30, 35 is possible and your rogue will strain to get +18 I think.
Remember to get ways of defeating exotic senses if you want to be untargetable due to hiding.
So lets see it.
The wizard can have pretty much double your wealth by level. Since it costs very little for one to have crafting feats.
The wizard is likely to have contigency ready to go.
You should expect the wizard to pretty easily just teleport away in case you do get past its emegerncy force sphere and cause it damage. Which means if you expect the wizard to die, you need to be able to account for this.
Wonder what other points people can think up, but anyway, if you go head to head with the wizard, you better have an entire bag of tricks up your sleeve.
The information won’t do you any good without a gate or wish, because you won’t have an attuned focus to plane shift there. So bite the bullet and use a Wish to take you to his body.
The information won’t do you any good without a gate or wish, because you won’t have an attuned focus to plane shift there. So bite the bullet and use a Wish to take you to his body.
A wizard's infinite spell component pouch has any attuned tuning fork for any plane they want to visit at any moment in time, right? I mean, I've certainly seen people argue that on this board (since it is a costless focus). So all our Rogue has to do is buy a spell component pouch and he will have a tuning fork attuned to his target's personal demiplane. That's how RAW works, right? \sarcasm
As an aside, the odds of success of this project strongly depend on the skill of the wizard's "player."
Haven't looked into it further but curiously Plane Shift only list F as a component and not DF meaning the divine version does not require the attuned fork.
This means the divine version DOES require the fork, it just doesn't also require a divine focus (holy/unholy symbol, whatever shrubbery druids use, etc.).
PS: The creator of the Staff of the Planes would, in any case, be the one supplying any needed focus or other components. The staffs wielder does not need to supply any components for using the Staves powers.
After the Planar Adventures section on tuning forks it's fair to assume that plane shift SLAs and magic items are capable of common fork targets (major planes, top level of multilayers like Abyss/Hell), but not others. Even attuning a fork to a custom demiplane is a challenging and very time consuming process once you've arrived via other means.
Yeah, if you read some of the splat books about planar travel it's difficult to reach someone's personal demi-plane. The major planes are the only ones that you have "easy" access to through commonly sold tuning forks.
I can't recall what the process is for gaining an attuned tuning fork for personal demi-planes.
A rare tuning fork is one attuned to an obscure demiplane, a demiplane that is simply difficult to travel to due to its nature, or a demiplane that is particularly small and insignificant.
Planes mentioned in this book that require rare tuning forks include the Dead Vault, the Harrowed Realm, and Jandelay.
Attuning a rare tuning fork is done using the same method as an uncommon fork, but the fork must be struck against an artifact created on that plane, a creature of CR 21 or higher native to the plane, or a unique or specific feature of the plane that you determine—such features are generally well guarded and difficult to reach, and thus they should require relatively high-level play (15th level or above) to use. Once so struck, the fork must be allowed to absorb the plane’s energies for 1 week. After this time has passed, the untuned fork is attuned to that plane.
"Major Demiplanes" can be attuned more easily as an Uncommon tuning fork, but those are big named places like Leng and Xibalba, not fly by night places created by mortal wizards.
So based on Xenocrats quote there, you basically can't reach a wizard's demiplane without Wish.
Although, I'm not even sure how the wizard reaches their demiplane after they leave (assuming permanent demiplane).
So based on Xenocrats quote there, you basically can't reach a wizard's demiplane without Wish.
Although, I'm not even sure how the wizard reaches their demiplane after they leave (assuming permanent demiplane).
I assume they instinctively know (or deliberately create) the "unique or specific feature" needed for attunement and wait a week. But maybe you can also enter an existing demiplane you created via additional castings of create demiplane.
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One of the greater demiplane options is leaving a permanent travel gate somewhere. Figure most use that.So based on Xenocrats quote there, you basically can't reach a wizard's demiplane without Wish.
Although, I'm not even sure how the wizard reaches their demiplane after they leave (assuming permanent demiplane).
No offense, but I think any wizard that leaves a permanent gate to their private demi-plane is just asking to be murdered.
It's honestly one of the least intelligent things you can do.
At least without the gate you have to have some sort of planar travel magic, which raises the bar for what kind of idiot will come in and attempt to kill you. And really based on the quoe from Xenocrat it means short of extremely high level magic, people just can't get to you.
The only trouble is that it's not explicitly stated how you return there, unless you do as Xenocrat suggested and make the plane permanent and then spend a week there to attune to the specific point of the plane. Which I guess is pretty viable, assuming you don't have urgent world saving to do.
One of the greater demiplane options is leaving a permanent travel gate somewhere. Figure most use that.So based on Xenocrats quote there, you basically can't reach a wizard's demiplane without Wish.
Although, I'm not even sure how the wizard reaches their demiplane after they leave (assuming permanent demiplane).
No offense, but I think any wizard that leaves a permanent gate to their private demi-plane is just asking to be murdered.
It's honestly one of the least intelligent things you can do.
It's a great thing to do once you have 9th level spells! Your real demiplane connects via gate to your threshold/guardian demiplane, which connects via gate to the real world. Your threshold demiplane has the timeless trait and is full of prismatic walls/spheres, summon monster IX creatures with orders to attack anyone who survives stepping through that prismatic wall, symbol spells (expensive, but they never stop once they're activated), etc.
You probably also hide your second portal to the real demiplance behind a Phase Door (disguised with permanent Greater Magic Aura) and link a third trap demiplane with an obvious gateway to the threshold demiplane. The trap plane can be antimagic with golems, another trap plane with the negative trait, whatever. They expend resources and lives smashing that one up and running around in a maze before realizing it's a dead end.
The only smart play is to just blow up all demiplanes with a Disjunction or Wish.
Thinking outside the box here...the spell Dream Travel lets you enter the dreams of a known creature. It offers no save for the dreamer, and it's not a Scrying spell, but the Wizard would likely only be considered "Not Well Known" to you, so you'd have a 24% chance of the spell not working. Provided it does, though, you could glean information through the Wizard's dreams, such as the demiplane they reside in, as well as the location within that demiplane. Also/alternatively, if you can convince them that you're a friend within their dream, then when they wake up, you pop up on in their plane, within 1d10 miles of them.
Honestly, the spell isn't written to cover the possibility of inter-planar travel.
That's not to say it can, but it doesn't say it can either. It just says it's a teleportation effect.
As a GM, I would probably rule that it only affects creatures on the same plane as when it is cast.
It's also weird that it doesn't offer the dreamer any chance to save.
The save is only for creatures that the casters wants to bring along with them. Which is weird.
Also it merely puts you into a Dreamscape. Which has it's own rules. Including basically what appears to say that the dreamer has a lucid body which doesn't actually affect their real body.
And as far as I can tell you wouldn't necessarily be able to figure out how to get to the demiplane where the real body is, just from invading their dreams. If they we're dreaming about being on their demiplane, then it could work, but I don't see it working otherwise.
It's all very unclear. The spell, I think is (outside what little hard numbers are present) almost entirely a "GM decides what happens" spell. I guess in retrospect, that's not gonna help you too much with this project, since it seems like the GM would be the one playing the Wizard, if this Rogue vs. Wizard scenario ever did go farther than being on paper. I guess you could always bring it up in the absence of anything better, and take it to a semantics war to convince the GM that the vague consequences of the spell could work in your favor.
Dream Voyage is the 9th level improved version of Dream Travel. Safely takes you to the dreamscape of the target, interplanar travel poses no risk, but the dreamer does get a will save to avoid letting you exit within 1 mile (no wizard built demiplanes are even going to be that big) of his body.
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Just take the rumormonger advanced rogue talent and make it seem like he is disrespecting every powerful being across the planes. Eventually one of them will take care of him for you.
It looks like Dream Voyage would straight up work, assuming the Wizard fails the will save. Then you exit at the body of the dreamer.
If the wizard saves, then you're just in a dreamscape with them...which is probably worthless.
Of course, getting access to a 9th level spell is...challenging without being a spell caster. Items and spell casting services of that level aren't guaranteed. And basically at this point you're employing high level magic to even have a chance at getting to them...which basically is admitting you need to be wizard (or at least emulate one) to have a shot of beating one.
If the answer requires you to use the highest level magic available to mortals to beat the wizard...you're not beating the wizard with a rogue. You're beating the wizard's magic with other magic.
And all that said, if the wizard has another demiplane with clones...good luck getting there before you kill him (per the already noted problems of planar travel and having to use a spell that lets you get to creatures without any caveat besides a failed will save).
Then you have a wizard who is warned, and will be prepared to fight you.
But honestly, the wizard could just have bound outsiders ready and waiting to fight anyone who shows up on his plane uninvited. As well as many other magical defenses. Including contingency.
If the wizard has decided to make his demiplane have the timeless quality he can just have a (virtually) infinite number of summons that don't have a time duration to expire. The wizard can have an infinite number of magical spells who's duration doesn't expire.
And, the wizard could have teleport trap on his domain.
There are so many things the wizard can do, that a rogue simply cannot beat without using magic to counter his magic.
That in essence is a loss no matter what, IMO.
At that point the only thing you're proving is whether you or your GM know Pathfinder's spells better.
Just take the rumormonger advanced rogue talent and make it seem like he is disrespecting every powerful being across the planes. Eventually one of them will take care of him for you.
Beings that powerful have a dangerously high chance of figuring out what you are doing, and taking care of you. If you wake up after doing this, you might find that you have been turned into a troll . . . .
What level 20 Wizard ever gets caught asleep in his own personal plane of existence? Really?
You use your Wish to be where he is the next time his actual self leaves his stupid Wizard hole.
You turn him into Sneak Attack jelly the moment he steps on to your territory.
Attempting to wade through the infinite planes available to a level 20 Wizard is ludicrous.
Take hostages from his personal company, be more clever than the Wizard, make him come to YOUR territory...
Just like the Lich example, it literally is not possible if done correctly.
Guys, this thread isn't about HOW to beat a Wizard, or discussing how fruitless it may or may not be to lay siege to a Wizard's demiplane - it's how would a Rogue find and follow a Wizard to his personal demiplane. If a Rogue uses his maxed out UMD skill to emulate an 18th-level spell caster to use a 9th-level scroll, that's a perfectly acceptable tactic - hacking into magic items is something often times expected of Rogues.
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Just take the rumormonger advanced rogue talent and make it seem like he is disrespecting every powerful being across the planes. Eventually one of them will take care of him for you.Beings that powerful have a dangerously high chance of figuring out what you are doing, and taking care of you. If you wake up after doing this, you might find that you have been turned into a troll . . . .
Other than actual deities, which of course don't have any rule based limitations on what they can do, I don't think this is true.
Rumormonger doesn't seem to indicate any obvious means of tracking down the rumor, after a successful check everyone in that community just believes that it is true. No magic to check, no way to indicate what started it.
So everyone in Absalom believes that Enemy Wizard has been telling people that Ragathiel's mother wore combat boots and that Cthullu would make a great sushi dish.
Everyone just believes this. No one knows why.
Kayerloth, not saying you're incorrect but I've never heard that you can look from the Ethereal plane into demiplanes, and cross between them just by finding the boundary on the Ethereal. It's a separate plane, wouldn't you still need planar teleportation magic? Do you have a source for this information?
Edit: Admittedly almost all my time playing Pathfinder is spent adventuring on the material plane, so planar stuff doesn't come up as much. I feel like how it's handled also might depend heavily on GMs and might vary depending on their past experiences with other games systems which might have slightly tweaked cosmology.
I suspect that most of those spells weren't significantly changed from D&D 3.0, but I agree with your general analysis Bob.
So if a demiplane is created from say...Axis (or any of the outer planes) then others would not be able to use the Ethereal or Astral planes to reach a demiplane.
If such a thing is true, Wizards would almost certainly know that before building a demiplane, and create their permanent demiplane from someplace that was harder to access.