They are oozes, not undead. So why are they always evil. Personally I could see a weird (and probably a bit crazy) but non evil druid becoming a WTW.
Actually, they are Vermin, not Oozes.
Apparently, only really Evil spellcasters spontaneously become Worms That Walk.
Honestly, how does something that starts remorselessly evil, consumes its own soul in the process of self creation, get better, and if it did somehow get better, could it maintain its own existance?
I rather expect any non remorselessly evil Druid would prefer keeping his or her soul intact for reincarnation rather than this rout, even the remorselessly evil ones mostly.
Well ok, that's basically just a circular argument i.e: Why are worms that walk always evil? Because only remorselessly evil souls become worms that walk.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I believe it is more that only a remorselessly evil spellcaster could even be capable of becoming said Worm that Walks. Not circular at all, it is an entrance requirement.
One reason may be due to the fact that evil creatures go to the lower planes after death. This is not a pleasant experience so an evil soul would be willing to do anything to avoid it. The formation of a worm that walks may be unpredictable, but one component may be the cooperation of the soul of the original creature. Only an evil soul would have the incentive to accept such a fate, because it is better than what awaits them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Keep in mind that what awaits most Good creatures isn't very good either, since most souls lose their memories after death.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Keep in mind that what awaits most Good creatures isn't very good either, since most souls lose their memories after death.
And everything else about themselves, barring special occasions, only to be eventually formed into an Outsider or decomposed into planar matter. Pathfinder not only has your body undergo decomposition, this is a universe in which SOULS undergo decomposition. Makes for a good "cycle" but feels pretty bad to be on the receiving end.
As far as WtWs always being evil, its completely arbitrary. Go ahead and make a Neutral or even a Good Worm that Walks. Is it creepy? Sure is! But creepy things, even people made up of amalgamations of insects, can be Good too.
Could actually be a fun adventure hook, party gets sent out by a secretly evil land owner to go clear out a Graveyard of an "Evil Worm that Walks" only to find out that the Worm has become a kindly if slightly mad grave tender and seeks to protect the Graveyard from being turned into a condominium or w/e evil lander owners do.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Keep in mind that what awaits most Good creatures isn't very good either, since most souls lose their memories after death.
Wouldn't a good character see it as losing themselves in a sea of bliss, rather than becoming food for fiends? Your take on it is rather dark and nihilistic. "There is no difference in the end" does rather devalue goodness and heroism except for the doomed hero fighting to maintain honor in the face of futility trope. Less so with myself, as I have bouts of feelings of futility dealing with people at all, but some people find such attitudes disrespectful of their personal real beliefs. What, after all, is Nirvana but, fundamentally no different than having your soul destroyed by demons in the hells, pointless. I understand some people do not resonate with the thought of being a part of something larger than oneself. (^_^ could there possibly be something larger than myself, after all?)
As with anything, individualism can be taken too far, unless nihilism is actually your cup of tea. This setting, as written, does not support that philosophy well, and many seriously disagree with the philosophy.
Apologies Yqatuba,
There is validity to you circular argument call out if you disregard the fact in a made up setting, every made up things definition is, by definition, not based on an external demonstrable fact, and is therefore circular so, so yes it is evil because it is defined to be evil.
You know, I hate these nights I can't sleep.
About the afterlife: I've always found the whole "merge with the plane" thing kind of vague: do just cease to exist? Or are you added to some collective consciousness which comprises the plane?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well ok, that's basically just a circular argument i.e: Why are worms that walk always evil? Because only remorselessly evil souls become worms that walk.
CG Desna worshippers turn into Butterflies that Flit instead? (A humanoid figure made out of a swarm of pulsing butterflies. Which sounds like it would be a kicking Desnan herald or planar ally type...)
About the afterlife: I've always found the whole "merge with the plane" thing kind of vague: do just cease to exist? Or are you added to some collective consciousness which comprises the plane?
Yes it is vague, but I think you have the right idea. Now that collective consciousness might not be the same as our consciousness, but only understandable as where the planes rules come from. You are not enforcing the rules you are the rules.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why is losing your memories necessarily a bad thing? If you go by the idea that you are only your memories than losing them would indeed be a bad thing, but if you go by the idea that you are more than just your memories that is not the case. If after death you exist in a state of absolute pleasure and joy that causes you to lose your individuality and enter a state of ecstasy that would not be a bad thing.
Since personality of the soul greatly influences the type of outsider that is formed I would say that your memories are not really gone. A person that has died may not have direct access to his memories but they still exist on some level. What may happen is that you lose the memories but still retain the feelings and sensations associated with them. For example you would not remember the details of doing a good deed, but you would still feel the sense of accomplishment and pleasure it gave you. In fact you may even be able to feel how your actions affected others. Imagine living a life of helping people and never knowing that people actually felt grateful. Now after death you not on feel how your deed made you feel, but also feel the joy and gratitude of all those you helped. This does not sound that bad too me.
One the other hand if after I die I feel all the suffering and misery my actions caused that would be a bad thing. Imagine all the suffering and pain a remorselessly evil person caused. Now imagine being forced to constantly experience all of that at one time without feeling any of the pleasure my acts gave me. Too me that would be something I would want to avoid at any cost.
Now imagine two dead souls, one good and one evil. Both have meet all the conditions of becoming Worm that Walks. In pathfinder a soul returning from the dead always knows what is bringing them back. The good soul is experiencing the joy and pleasure beyond anything they have ever felt. The evil soul is experiencing pain and terror beyond comprehension. Both feel the opportunity to become a Worm that Walks. Do you really think that the good soul would want to leave? Can there be any doubt that the evil soul would jump at the chance?
Now I can see a rather quirky nature type finding interest in experiencing a hive mind more fully, it doesn't seem thematically right gaining it this way. I can see interesting NPCs reskinned from this, I like the butterfly idea, and I can even see a Callistrian wasp person. I can't see letting it extend to PCs, though, in 40 years I have seen few players who I could trust to do a good job with it.
Why is losing your memories necessarily a bad thing? If you go by the idea that you are only your memories than losing them would indeed be a bad thing, but if you go by the idea that you are more than just your memories that is not the case. If after death you exist in a state of absolute pleasure and joy that causes you to lose your individuality and enter a state of ecstasy that would not be a bad thing.
Losing individuality is the problem. You're not just mind wiped and dropped into eternal paradise. That would still be very troubling, but it'd be a little better. You can't enter a state of ecstasy because there is no you. Joy is only desirable because it's something you experience. 'Being' is a prerequisite for experiencing and the afterlife strips you of that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What, after all, is Nirvana but, fundamentally no different than having your soul destroyed by demons in the hells, pointless.
If you don't want to have your soul destroyed by demons or suffer in the hells, may I suggest a middle ground?
But your overall point, that the good and the evil all ultimately end up in the same state (recycled soul food) is an excellent one. If existence itself is pointless, how can trying to end existence be an evil act?
Come to the team trying to make things better once and for all.
I mean don't sapient outsiders still have indirect access to their memories (or at least some of them) if they really want to seek them out? It's just that most don't since it doesn't mean much anymore.
I mean a major plot point in Wrath of the Righteous is:
So all those memories are still there somewhere.
What that immediately suggests to me is that a truly Good soul, offered the choice between eternal bliss
Now imagine two dead souls, one good and one evil. Both have meet all the conditions of becoming Worm that Walks. In pathfinder a soul returning from the dead always knows what is bringing them back. The good soul is experiencing the joy and pleasure beyond anything they have ever felt. The evil soul is experiencing pain and terror beyond comprehension. Both feel the opportunity to become a Worm that Walks. Do you really think that the good soul would want to leave? Can there be any doubt that the evil soul would jump at the chance?
There is no such thing as eternal bliss or damnation in Pathfinder. Even if you somehow perpetually avoid dissolution into the plane and recycling into the Maelstrom, eventually Groetus is going to oversee existence ending.
So go ahead and sign that infernal contract. You and Asmodeus are ultimately going to end up with the same fate - nothingness. And before then you (or your various churned up soul quantums) will likely live several other (after)lives.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mortals are just the multiverse experiencing itself. The soul is a bit of the universe that broke off and eventually returns. Some people don't find that a horrifying thought
I mean, if you want to have a non-evil one you would want:
- A theory of "how this happens to people" that doesn't rely on the person being evil (from what I can tell becoming a WtW is accidental).
- A story about a particular non-evil person that ended up like this which you want to tell.
A lot of times something is evil just to signpost "kill this thing" and a non-evil worm NPC might just be someone the PCs make friends with.
I've always been confused about Groetus as well. Does he cause the end of the multiverse or is he just the indicator of when it will happen. And what would happen afterwords. Would it just be an eternity of nothing or would a new multiverse form eventually? I wonder similar things about the real universe i.e when it ends (which we think will happen eventually even if we aren't sure how) will that just be end and there's nothing happening literally FOREVER or will a new universe form eventually?
I've always been confused about Groetus as well. Does he cause the end of the multiverse or is he just the indicator of when it will happen. And what would happen afterwords. Would it just be an eternity of nothing or would a new multiverse form eventually? I wonder similar things about the real universe i.e when it ends (which we think will happen eventually even if we aren't sure how) will that just be end and there's nothing happening literally FOREVER or will a new universe form eventually?
I figure there are a lot of questions the answers to which only Pharasma actually knows, but she's not obligated to explain it to anyone. Everything which is not from the lady of graves herself is mere speculation.
Officially, they aren't going to give us "the end of the universe" (since, I mean, Starfinder exists) so all of this is "whatever the GM prefers for their game."
|
|
What that immediately suggests to me is that a truly Good soul, offered the choice between eternal bliss and the chance to become a powerful entity in the material world, is likely to feel duty-bound to the latter as an opportunity to do more good for those less fortunate. Not prioritising your own wants above all else seems fairly fundamental to Good, to me.
Go all bodhisattva and delay your own gratification to hang back and hold the door for others behind you in line.
Very appropriate thinking for a good character, to choose life, where he can still do good, rather than 'paradise' where he's going to wander around like a mindless sheep, being joygasmed until he dissolves into a puddle of planar goo.
Because the likelihood of such a conversion will corrupt and destroy that enlightened soul?
I am afraid of death and will not contemplate a world without me?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why is losing your memories necessarily a bad thing? If you go by the idea that you are only your memories than losing them would indeed be a bad thing, but if you go by the idea that you are more than just your memories that is not the case. If after death you exist in a state of absolute pleasure and joy that causes you to lose your individuality and enter a state of ecstasy that would not be a bad thing.Losing individuality is the problem. You're not just mind wiped and dropped into eternal paradise. That would still be very troubling, but it'd be a little better. You can't enter a state of ecstasy because there is no you. Joy is only desirable because it's something you experience. 'Being' is a prerequisite for experiencing and the afterlife strips you of that.
You are your memories plus your internal instructions for reacting to your memories (and the latter are a type of memory in themselves, although different enough that they might be stored separately, like in Harvard architecture). So if you lose your memories, you are no longer you. Having seen people, including family, succumb to dementia, I know this from experience, and know that the ticking time bomb in my DNA means that my future is absolute, inevitable, and irrevocable damnation, regardless of anything I do, and regardless of any afterlife destination or lack thereof, and no amount of pleasure or joy could even begin to be relevant in the face of such a thing.
Why is losing your memories necessarily a bad thing? If you go by the idea that you are only your memories than losing them would indeed be a bad thing, but if you go by the idea that you are more than just your memories that is not the case. If after death you exist in a state of absolute pleasure and joy that causes you to lose your individuality and enter a state of ecstasy that would not be a bad thing.Losing individuality is the problem. You're not just mind wiped and dropped into eternal paradise. That would still be very troubling, but it'd be a little better. You can't enter a state of ecstasy because there is no you. Joy is only desirable because it's something you experience. 'Being' is a prerequisite for experiencing and the afterlife strips you of that.You are your memories plus your internal instructions for reacting to your memories (and the latter are a type of memory in themselves, although different enough that they might be stored separately, like in Harvard architecture). So if you lose your memories, you are no longer you. Having seen people, including family, succumb to dementia, I know this from experience, and know that the ticking time bomb in my DNA means that my future is absolute, inevitable, and irrevocable damnation, regardless of anything I do, and regardless of any afterlife destination or lack thereof, and no amount of pleasure or joy could even begin to be relevant in the face of such a thing.
I set this aside for a cool off period, because it seems to be causing difficulties. Even assuming your somewhat over simplistic take on how memory works, is the scientifically most plausible, and the very real horror of seeing someone forget all that you have ever shared cannot be overstated. You are neglecting the value of "laying down your earthly burdens". Not every memory is a good one, some are quite damaging, to the point of breaking the spirit of the person. It is a mercy to believe that at least in the afterlife the suffering can end.
^The bad memories are also extremely important to keep, to remember what we have done wrong. Some bliss is a worse than any suffering.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't really get why the devs felt the need to put the detail about petitioners losing all their memories in the game in the first place. Is it just explain why all petitioners start out as CR 2 instead of retaining whatever class levels they had in life?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
^That would be a very plausible reason.
I don't really get why the devs felt the need to put the detail about petitioners losing all their memories in the game in the first place. Is it just explain why all petitioners start out as CR 2 instead of retaining whatever class levels they had in life?
The point of sentient mortal life is to have a cosmic game that allocates souls to the afterlife without open warfare breaking out on the outerplanes. Once they've died and been judged by Pharasma, they go where the gods/planes can then do what they want with them. They have no interest in their new recruits remembering their prior lives and holding grudges, false hopes, or worrying about those left behind when they need to be focusing on their (not really) eternal torture, continued purification possibly leading to incarnation as an angel, bookkeeping or ushering duties in Axis/Boneyard, or whatever.
Took me a while, but I found the reference I was looking for.
I believe James Jacobs has said the deep history there is very different from anything that has yet been seen in print.
I always thought that the obviously misleading point in the lore is the story or Asmodeus, for one I’m pretty sure it comes from his own holy book and it’s inconsistent with what we know about Pharasma’s age and power and the rovagugg.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't really get why the devs felt the need to put the detail about petitioners losing all their memories in the game in the first place. Is it just explain why all petitioners start out as CR 2 instead of retaining whatever class levels they had in life?The point of sentient mortal life is to have a cosmic game that allocates souls to the afterlife without open warfare breaking out on the outerplanes. Once they've died and been judged by Pharasma, they go where the gods/planes can then do what they want with them. They have no interest in their new recruits remembering their prior lives and holding grudges, false hopes, or worrying about those left behind when they need to be focusing on their (not really) eternal torture, continued purification possibly leading to incarnation as an angel, bookkeeping or ushering duties in Axis/Boneyard, or whatever.
While that makes sense it casts the gods in a pretty bad light, implying even good gods just see their worshippers as pawns or whatever. You'd think at least one god would exist who allows followers to keep their memories. I imagine they could even use it as a selling point i.e "worship me and you wont lose all your memories after you die".
I feel like "lose your memories, learn how to exist on an outer plane, then give those people the option to regain or visit those memories thereafter" seems like a thing a good deity might do.
Since just "having a mind full of mortal memories and then suddenly existing in a place where nothing works like you are accustomed to" might be traumatic. And of course one reason for memory wiping souls at least at first is that the circumstances of one's death can be extremely traumatic so at the very least we don't want people to have to confront that right away.
While that makes sense it casts the gods in a pretty bad light, implying even good gods just see their worshippers as pawns or whatever. You'd think at least one god would exist who allows followers to keep their memories. I imagine they could even use it as a selling point i.e "worship me and you wont lose all your memories after you die".I don't really get why the devs felt the need to put the detail about petitioners losing all their memories in the game in the first place. Is it just explain why all petitioners start out as CR 2 instead of retaining whatever class levels they had in life?The point of sentient mortal life is to have a cosmic game that allocates souls to the afterlife without open warfare breaking out on the outerplanes. Once they've died and been judged by Pharasma, they go where the gods/planes can then do what they want with them. They have no interest in their new recruits remembering their prior lives and holding grudges, false hopes, or worrying about those left behind when they need to be focusing on their (not really) eternal torture, continued purification possibly leading to incarnation as an angel, bookkeeping or ushering duties in Axis/Boneyard, or whatever.
Why would they want you to remember (and worry about) your children and other loved ones left behind? You can't do anything about them anymore, and if they end up damned or even just sent somewhere else where you'll never see them again you're just going to mope about it and harm your own good standing. Why would they want a good Taldan soldier to remember his enmity against Qadira, and their good soldiers in the afterlife who killed his buddies?
Mortal life is high school, the afterlife as a petitioner is college, with hope of getting a good job as an outsider at graduation. No one in your job interviews is going to want to hear about how popular you were or weren't, about your ex-girlfriend who went to a different school and dropped out, your school rivalries, or your SATs scores by the time you get to that job interview. So it's best to forget them as soon as possible.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like "lose your memories, learn how to exist on an outer plane, then give those people the option to regain or visit those memories thereafter" seems like a thing a good deity might do.
Since just "having a mind full of mortal memories and then suddenly existing in a place where nothing works like you are accustomed to" might be traumatic. And of course one reason for memory wiping souls at least at first is that the circumstances of one's death can be extremely traumatic so at the very least we don't want people to have to confront that right away.
I already exist for several hours each weekday (and often weekends) in a place where nothing works like I am accustomed to -- I work in Modern Necromancy Life Science research.
Why would they want you to remember (and worry about) your children and other loved ones left behind? You can't do anything about them anymore, and if they end up damned or even just sent somewhere else where you'll never see them again you're just going to mope about it and harm your own good standing. Why would they want a good Taldan soldier to remember his enmity against Qadira, and their good soldiers in the afterlife who killed his buddies?
Why wouldn't I want to remember those left behind? If some place requires me to forget about them to stay in good standing, I want no part of it.
Mortal life is high school, the afterlife as a petitioner is college, with hope of getting a good job as an outsider at graduation. No one in your job interviews is going to want to hear about how popular you were or weren't, about your ex-girlfriend who went to a different school and dropped out, your school rivalries, or your SATs scores by the time you get to that job interview. So it's best to forget them as soon as possible.
Many of my high school (and earlier school) memories are bad, but having them wiped would be even worse, regardless of whether it would feel better.
I feel like "lose your memories, learn how to exist on an outer plane, then give those people the option to regain or visit those memories thereafter" seems like a thing a good deity might do.
Since just "having a mind full of mortal memories and then suddenly existing in a place where nothing works like you are accustomed to" might be traumatic. And of course one reason for memory wiping souls at least at first is that the circumstances of one's death can be extremely traumatic so at the very least we don't want people to have to confront that right away.
I already exist for several hours each weekday (and often weekends) in a place where nothing works like I am accustomed to -- I work in
Modern NecromancyLife Science research.Why would they want you to remember (and worry about) your children and other loved ones left behind? You can't do anything about them anymore, and if they end up damned or even just sent somewhere else where you'll never see them again you're just going to mope about it and harm your own good standing. Why would they want a good Taldan soldier to remember his enmity against Qadira, and their good soldiers in the afterlife who killed his buddies?Why wouldn't I want to remember those left behind? If some place requires me to forget about them to stay in good standing, I want no part of it.
Mortal life is high school, the afterlife as a petitioner is college, with hope of getting a good job as an outsider at graduation. No one in your job interviews is going to want to hear about how popular you were or weren't, about your ex-girlfriend who went to a different school and dropped out, your school rivalries, or your SATs scores by the time you get to that job interview. So it's best to forget them as soon as possible.Many of my high school (and earlier school) memories are bad, but having them wiped would be even worse, regardless of whether it would feel better.
I think Xenocrat was asking more from the perspective of the gods than from the mortal participants. From their perspective, every mortal ever is eventually going to be nothing more than a pawn, their life choices and memories only have significance in terms of which side of whose chessboard they end up on (and past that point, they're irrelevant), and, except for relatively rare cases where the mortal ducks out from under the system via something like lichdom, it's an outcome no one can avoid. In such a system where the gods hold all the cards and mortals hold none, not even to not end up as an expendable pawn for some deity somewhere, what incentive is there for a god to bother letting any mortal know anything about their past life?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why would they want you to remember (and worry about) your children and other loved ones left behind? You can't do anything about them anymore, and if they end up damned or even just sent somewhere else where you'll never see them again you're just going to mope about it and harm your own good standing. Why would they want a good Taldan soldier to remember his enmity against Qadira, and their good soldiers in the afterlife who killed his buddies?Why wouldn't I want to remember those left behind? If some place requires me to forget about them to stay in good standing, I want no part of it.
Mortal life is high school, the afterlife as a petitioner is college, with hope of getting a good job as an outsider at graduation. No one in your job interviews is going to want to hear about how popular you were or weren't, about your ex-girlfriend who went to a different school and dropped out, your school rivalries, or your SATs scores by the time you get to that job interview. So it's best to forget them as soon as possible.Many of my high school (and earlier school) memories are bad, but having them wiped would be even worse, regardless of whether it would feel better.
Congrats, you're a Pathfinder setting atheist rejecting the system and sitting in the Boneyard being all emo until you melt into the spire. Your own feelings about losing your memories are irrelevant and do not serve the purposes of the gods, so they will not be humored.
Have you considered worshiping Mahathallah and trying for a soul anchor?
I think Xenocrat was asking more from the perspective of the gods than from the mortal participants. From their perspective, every mortal ever is eventually going to be nothing more than a pawn, their life choices and memories only have significance in terms of which side of whose chessboard they end up on (and past that point, they're irrelevant), and, except for relatively rare cases where the mortal ducks out from under the system via something like lichdom, it's an outcome no one can avoid. In such a system where the gods hold all the cards and mortals hold none, not even to not end up as an expendable pawn for some deity somewhere, what incentive is there for a god to bother letting any mortal know anything about their past life?
Exactly right. If you're adopting the "but I don't WANT to lose my memories" you're basically being a child who wants to take their ball and go home. Pharasma and the gods will let you do that, but you're still going to lose your memories while you sit in time out until you give up on existence.
You can follow a god whose principles you support, trusting them to do something with your (newborn, forgetful) soul that you'd approve of; you can be a grumpy athiest who sits the process out; you can join a demonic cult to try for conversion to outsider without losing your memories; or you can try to find a soul anchor artifact (worship or otherwise deal with Mahathallah for best results) so that judgement won't wipe your memories clean. Trying to selfishly retain your mortal memories doesn't serve the (good!) purposes of the good gods so don't expect them to humor you.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or, you decide to screw the system and find some way to be immortal. Then focus on spending the next few thousand years crushing inevitables, fanatics, adventurers, and psychopomps who try to force you back into the system. Unmake them before they unmake you.
Sure most of the methods for gaining immortality are "Evil" but if you don't want to be a part of the system Evil was the game plan from the get-go. The gods of these settings are basically greek gods, largely a bunch of petty jerks, so you might as well stick it too them as much as possible.
Or, you decide to screw the system and find some way to be immortal. Then focus on spending the next few thousand years crushing inevitables, fanatics, adventurers, and psychopomps who try to force you back into the system. Unmake them before they unmake you.
Sure most of the methods for gaining immortality are "Evil" but if you don't want to be a part of the system Evil was the game plan from the get-go. The gods of these settings are basically greek gods, largely a bunch of petty jerks, so you might as well stick it too them as much as possible.
Can always take longevity 1st tier Mythic path ability.
No alignment attached to it and not unsavoury in anyway. Just have to get Mythic somehow.