Hi all,
I'm currently running a converted Age of Worms campaign for Pathfinder. One of the characters in the party is a Paladin. Due to the at will use of Detect Evil, it has become a repetitive use to stand in front of a door and use the ability to essentially create a mob detection so there are really no surprises, and the party always knows the number of creatures and approximate level due to the strength of aura. Beyond using hide alignment, are there other ways to be able to create the mystery of a dungeon while allowing him to use his skill as written, or general advice to pick up the pace? Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
To be entirely frank, Pathfinder never takes into account Detect Evil as a ability or spell. Socially speaking, should someone register as outright evil in the real world, they'd get arrested or dead in a heartbeat, because their nature is such that all you'd need to do is some checking and they would have done a lot of horrible things already. Legality never really was the goal of justice in the medieval ages and before, it was more a matter of keeping the public happy.
Don't believe me? Okay, think of what was done to just HERETICS, not outright evil individuals, and you might get an inkling of how an actual evil person would be treated.
I actually have a book all about this topic. How the medieval mind regards criminals, and what a criminal was in their opinions. Really enlightening stuff.
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Paladins tend to wander around in heavy armor and not have ranks in stealth. Detect Paladin (perception) is pretty easy. Any chance those in the room could bug out and maybe hit the party from another angle?
And yeah, alignment and means of detecting it are the underlying problem, but fixing that in the middle of a campaign isn't likely workable.
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To be entirely frank, Pathfinder never takes into account Detect Evil as a ability or spell. Socially speaking, should someone register as outright evil in the real world, they'd get arrested or dead in a heartbeat, because their nature is such that all you'd need to do is some checking and they would have done a lot of horrible things already. Legality never really was the goal of justice in the medieval ages and before, it was more a matter of keeping the public happy.
Don't believe me? Okay, think of what was done to just HERETICS, not outright evil individuals, and you might get an inkling of how an actual evil person would be treated.
I actually have a book all about this topic. How the medieval mind regards criminals, and what a criminal was in their opinions. Really enlightening stuff.
This is really foolish and ahistorical. The nobility and the clergy would themselves register as evil in high numbers. “Evil” is not outlawed, violence and theft by the disfavored against favored is outlawed. Punishments for crimes have often been evil in of themselves.
Detect evil specifies:
The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Edit: Ninjaed
Considering that many (most?) Pathfinder settings/ campaigns do not conform to midieval, European, Earth norms, is it helpful to have an ugly discussion of what said norms were or were not? Just curious.
Yeah, Golarion is very different than any period of our world.
There are spells to hide Auras, like Magic Aura, Greater or Aura Alteration...
I would roleplay that a evil wizard with a good amount of intelligence would know to use these spells to thwart the paladin.
In fact, these Aura meddling spells last for a number of days per CL. So, its completely reasonable for a evil caster to prepare for this group days or weeks in advanced.
One foot of stone isn't unexpected for some walls, and if a villain had the resources I'd expect them to line thin doors/walls with lead to block divinations.
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Not necessarily, which is the point.
Not only would most evil people not trigger Detect Evil, because they're not high enough level, but even then, any old bigoted, racist, bitter, angry and powerless grandpa would set it off. Yet the only thing they might actually endanger is a family dinner, or the mood of whoever they rant at this day.
Plus, you know. Paladins probably have better things to do than the gruntiest of work. Like anything actually useful. They're not that common.
And even then, being evil is not a crime in and of itself.
As for Golarion : the Inner Sea, at least, is just not a medieval setting. Socially and culturally, it's infinitely closer to the 18th century than the 13th.
I think the issue is more of poor dungeon design. Why are the bad guys always sitting in a room waiting for the PCs to open the door and attack? Have them move around, set guards, and otherwise act more realistically.
It's surprising Golarion's non-evil cities don't man Paladins at the city gates like an airport scanner to detect evil people/things.
Oh my god, I'm so going to use that for my current campaign! None of the players are evil (at least not yet ^^), but this is perfect world building!
Hm, is there a spell that detects which deity a person follows?Not necessarily, which is the point.
Not only would most evil people not trigger Detect Evil, because they're not high enough level, but even then, any old bigoted, racist, bitter, angry and powerless grandpa would set it off. Yet the only thing they might actually endanger is a family dinner, or the mood of whoever they rant at this day.
Are you seriously saying bitter, angry, bigoted racists pose no thread whatsoever if they don't have physical prowess? Seriously? Do I need to point to a reallife example who'd fit that description?
Plus, you know. Paladins probably have better things to do than the gruntiest of work. Like anything actually useful.
Keeping mass murderers, rapists etc. out of the city isn't useful work?
And even then, being evil is not a crime in and of itself.
Many religions would disagree. Also, detecting as Evil is actual hard proof that the person has commited evil acts in the past. Quite frankly, barring known criminals entry into a country is pretty much standard practice, and this is the pre-information-age equivalent.
As for Golarion : the Inner Sea, at least, is just not a medieval setting. Socially and culturally, it's infinitely closer to the 18th century than the 13th.
Well, the always unexpected spanish inquisition was only disbanded in the 19th century. Indeed, the heights of witch hunts and inquisitions weren't in medieval times, but in early modern times.
Also, detecting as Evil is actual hard proof that the person has commited evil acts in the past.
What? Can you elaborate on this? Why would an ethical perspective be proof of someone's actions?
Also, detecting as Evil is actual hard proof that the person has commited evil acts in the past.What? Can you elaborate on this? Why would an ethical perspective be proof of someone's actions?
It's not hard proof of anything. There are plenty of effects that can make a nonevil person detect as evil. Infernal Healing, being subjected to the Arcanist's Soulrider outer rift exploit, being possessed by an evil creature, a Fiend Keeper Medium who has 3 points of influence from his spirit, etc.
And of course "creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell." A good person feeling a momentary flash of rage and raising his fist to his domestic partner will register as evil even though it's highly probably they'll master their anger and not actually strike out.
Not necessarily, which is the point.
Not only would most evil people not trigger Detect Evil, because they're not high enough level, but even then, any old bigoted, racist, bitter, angry and powerless grandpa would set it off. Yet the only thing they might actually endanger is a family dinner, or the mood of whoever they rant at this day.Are you seriously saying bitter, angry, bigoted racists pose no thread whatsoever if they don't have physical prowess? Seriously? Do I need to point to a reallife example who'd fit that description?
Real life has guns that can let weaklings perform massacres. Pathfinder has very limited guns, and they aren't any good for mowing down crowds.
And even then, being evil is not a crime in and of itself.Many religions would disagree.
Many real world religious tenets and their followers would probably be evil by the objective morality standards of Golarion.
Golarion, as one would expect with dozens of gods, doesn't really care what any particular religion thinks should be a crime. Even in Lastwall and Mendev one presumes that the rulers, being smarter than you, wouldn't put people in prison or kill them for detecting as evil, given the many ways to detect evil without actually being evil. The Aura Alteration spell lasts for days per level and can be cast on unwilling targets. Oh, how evil spellcasters would laugh if they could mask their own alignments and set up dupes to be falsely arrested because of patently dumb policies like what you suggest.
In Golarion, Good is usually quite forgiving. Most of the Neutral Good deities want you to give evil creatures a chance to turn to the side of good. Now, the lawful good deities tend towards a more severe slant, but are still mostly open towards redeeming evil. Oddly, Lawful Neutral may be the most likely to take a dark view to those detecting as Evil, as they have little interest in redeeming such people.
Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
I imagine you got a lot more than you bargained for with this thread.
Also, detecting as Evil is actual hard proof that the person has commited evil acts in the past.What? Can you elaborate on this? Why would an ethical perspective be proof of someone's actions?It's not hard proof of anything. There are plenty of effects that can make a nonevil person detect as evil. Infernal Healing, being subjected to the Arcanist's Soulrider outer rift exploit, being possessed by an evil creature, a Fiend Keeper Medium who has 3 points of influence from his spirit, etc.
Not only are these fringe examples, but most of these are things that you probably don't want to just shrug off and allow to run rampant around society (and these are the specific drawback of Infernal Healing or the F-K Medium).
And of course "creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell." A good person feeling a momentary flash of rage and raising his fist to his domestic partner will register as evil even though it's highly probably they'll master their anger and not actually strike out.
A person (over 5 HD) who is intends to strike his partner will detect as evil. If he does not intend to strike his partner, he will not detect as evil. Unless prevented from striking his partner, the person who intends to strike his partner will strike his partner. The spell does not detect evil impulse, thought, or rage-based fantasy. It detects evil intent.
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Being evil does not imply committing evil acts. People may have genuinely evil thoughts towards others, and yet do not put those thoughts into practice because of legal or social consequences. An evil person not hurting those who he hates is not non-evil, just well adjusted into society (so, at most, non-chaotic). Other people are truly evil, and yet manifest it in more subtle ways that do not necessarily involve crimes or physical violence, but hate and psychological oppression.
This is pretty much the point of The Purge: the one day you lift obligations towards law and society, evil people are free to act according to their true alignment, this however doesn't mean that the rest of the year they are not evil anymore.
So yeah, someone could detect as super-evil: most probably if you put him on a desert island with a person he hates and give him legal immunity, he will probably torture the guy in any possible imaginable way, but until then he's an innocent and upstanding citizen.
Also, detecting as Evil is actual hard proof that the person has commited evil acts in the past.What? Can you elaborate on this? Why would an ethical perspective be proof of someone's actions?
How do you think did they end up with an evil alignment? Humanoids aren't born evil, they had to commit enough or strong enough evil acts to shift alignment.
It's not hard proof of anything. There are plenty of effects that can make a nonevil person detect as evil. Infernal Healing, being subjected to the Arcanist's Soulrider outer rift exploit, being possessed by an evil creature, a Fiend Keeper Medium who has 3 points of influence from his spirit, etc.
I think Soulrider would "ping" as a seperate entity. Being possessed by an evil creature, or being under the influence of an evil spirit, is more than enough reason to not let someone into the city. And though entering a city where Paladins check your alignment at the gates, while under the effects of Infernal Healing, isn't evil, it's certainly very, very stupid.
And of course "creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell." A good person feeling a momentary flash of rage and raising his fist to his domestic partner will register as evil even though it's highly probably they'll master their anger and not actually strike out.
I thought we were talking about entering a city? If you have enough "actively evil intents" agains the city or its guards, that's certainly a good reason not to let you in the city.
Many real world religious tenets and their followers would probably be evil by the objective morality standards of Golarion.
No disagreement here. Golarion deities do have a bit more of a hands on-approach, though. A Paladin can't really be part of or work for an evil gouvernment/religion.
The Aura Alteration spell lasts for days per level and can be cast on unwilling targets.
"Target one object or willing creature"
@Gray Warden: "Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master." CRB pg. 166
Real life has guns that can let weaklings perform massacres. Pathfinder has very limited guns, and they aren't any good for mowing down crowds.
Are you seriously saying bitter, angry, bigoted racists pose no thread whatsoever if they don't have physical prowess? Seriously? Do I need to point to a reallife example who'd fit that description?
Apart from the fact that magic could take the place of guns here, I wasn't talking about someone using firearms. I was talking about, say, some "bitter, angry, bigoted racist" taking over the nation, ordering a genocide of around six million people and starting the biggest war mankind has ever seen.
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Being evil does not imply committing evil acts. People may have genuinely evil thoughts towards others, and yet do not put those thoughts into practice because of legal or social consequences. An evil person not hurting those who he hates is not non-evil, just well adjusted into society (so, at most, non-chaotic). Other people are truly evil, and yet manifest it in more subtle ways that do not necessarily involve crimes or physical violence, but hate and psychological oppression.
This is pretty much the point of The Purge: the one day you lift obligations towards law and society, evil people are free to act according to their true alignment, this however doesn't mean that the rest of the year they are not evil anymore.
So yeah, someone could detect as super-evil: most probably if you put him on a desert island with a person he hates and give him legal immunity, he will probably torture the guy in any possible imaginable way, but until then he's an innocent and upstanding citizen.
And this is really where the arguments come from. If someone can't be Good when they're not willing to perform good actions, how can someone be Evil if they're not willing to perform evil actions?
If someone isn't willing to perform evil deeds even when there's no chance he'll be caught, how can he be considered Evil? He's just a Neutral person, going along with the least-resistance flow of society. Alternately, he's Lawful Neutral, rationalizing the need for and binding himself by a strongly enforced set of laws that prevent people from doing things that he would want to do.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.
Presumably, this also applies to evil.
After all, a person who has good thoughts and recreationally kills orphans can't be Good. Also, a person who doesn't feel devoted to the concepts of Good and Evil, but likes the praise he gets from helping people (and does so at every chance he gets) can't stay Neutral.
How do you think did they end up with an evil alignment? Humanoids aren't born evil, they had to commit enough or strong enough evil acts to shift alignment.Also, detecting as Evil is actual hard proof that the person has commited evil acts in the past.What? Can you elaborate on this? Why would an ethical perspective be proof of someone's actions?
I can envision a child being raised by hateful, spiteful parents who abuse him or her regularly growing up to be someone who internalizes those personality traits and methods of interacting with the world. That person never had a chance to commit any evil acts but I can't imagine that they would detect as good or neutral.
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I do find funny what people infer as evil while pathfinder has an entire nation of racists and yet it's alignment is CG. A God of traditional values is LG and so on.
Anyway, leaving aside how alignment can clearly shift drastically based on the GM, OP start to put neutral enemies in there too.
If the enemies are intelligent there could be easily some who just aren't evil, you can also add oozes/animais/constructs...
Being evil does not imply committing evil acts. People may have genuinely evil thoughts towards others, and yet do not put those thoughts into practice because of legal or social consequences. An evil person not hurting those who he hates is not non-evil, just well adjusted into society (so, at most, non-chaotic). Other people are truly evil, and yet manifest it in more subtle ways that do not necessarily involve crimes or physical violence, but hate and psychological oppression.
This is pretty much the point of The Purge: the one day you lift obligations towards law and society, evil people are free to act according to their true alignment, this however doesn't mean that the rest of the year they are not evil anymore.
So yeah, someone could detect as super-evil: most probably if you put him on a desert island with a person he hates and give him legal immunity, he will probably torture the guy in any possible imaginable way, but until then he's an innocent and upstanding citizen.
And this is really where the arguments come from. If someone can't be Good when they're not willing to perform good actions, how can someone be Evil if they're not willing to perform evil actions?
If someone isn't willing to perform evil deeds even when there's no chance he'll be caught, how can he be considered Evil? He's just a Neutral person, going along with the least-resistance flow of society. Alternately, he's Lawful Neutral, rationalizing the need for and binding himself by a strongly enforced set of laws that prevent people from doing things that he would want to do.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.Presumably, this also applies to evil.
After all, a person who has good thoughts and recreationally kills orphans can't be Good. Also, a person who doesn't feel devoted to the concepts of...
Many societies consider inaction to be evil - e.g. child neglect, elder neglect, not reporting a fire, etc.
Hi all,
I'm currently running a converted Age of Worms campaign for Pathfinder. One of the characters in the party is a Paladin. Due to the at will use of Detect Evil, it has become a repetitive use to stand in front of a door and use the ability to essentially create a mob detection so there are really no surprises, and the party always knows the number of creatures and approximate level due to the strength of aura. Beyond using hide alignment, are there other ways to be able to create the mystery of a dungeon while allowing him to use his skill as written, or general advice to pick up the pace? Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
GMing is something of an art form.
You can just follow the exact words on the Age or Worms page and lay out the dungeon in the exact way the author/artist originally created it. Or, you can make small alterations.
If you prefer the former, then go for it, but players will always find ways to trivialize challenges and maybe even derail campaigns.
Or be an artist and adjust things on the fly.
A few basic suggestions:
1. Don't always use evil enemies. Plants, insects, constructs, animals, elementals, many outsiders, lots of NPCs, traps, and many other creatures, enemies, and challenges are not evil. Replace some of the written encounters with alternative non-evil enemies. No, don't replace all of them. Just a few. Just enough that the players learn that they cannot automatically depend on their Paladin's spoiler ability.
2. Use smarter enemies, especially at higher levels. Just because the author didn't think of using lead-lined doors or alignment-masking magic doesn't mean that you can't add some of it, especially at key locations. Again, not everywhere; that paladin SHOULD get some use of his ability.
3. Change the layout. Sure, the map shows a square room with some evil villains directly in front of the door. Change it to an L-shaped room with evil villains around the corner where the Detect Evil won't penetrate through all that stone. Or make a room taller with the villains upstairs on a balcony - it will be funny when the paladin walks into the trap because he forgot to look up when he used his ability...
4. Create traps where the trigger is "Using magic here". Normal villains can walk up and down the hall, open the door, go about their daily business, but when anybody uses any magic (including Detect Evil) in the trapped area, BLAM, trap goes off. Do it enough and the paladin might want to stop using the ability. Even better, when the rogue is drying to disable that trap, the evil villains hear him and open the door. Surprise round and the rogue is the first one in the line of fire.
5. Give them a reason to hurry. A chase maybe. Or they have to get to the bottom of the dungeon before the bad guy kills an important hostage. Or whatever. Remind them that abilities, even at-will abilities require actions. The paladin can only move at half speed (one move action to walk, one move action to Detect Evil) when he's doing this and they probably can't afford to waste that much time.
6. (my favorite) Examine the dungeon, the monsters in it, the evil mastermind behind the scenes of the campaign, and your players, then devise your own ideas that fit your game the best. Yep, time to be an artist.
Finally, don't do too much of any of these things. Every character should be able to use their class abilities. However, there is no guarantee nor should there even be any expectation that EVERY ability is useful all the time. It's very reasonable that some encounters or even some entire dungeons, might be set up in such a way that some characters might get little or no use of some abilities. Sometimes.