So I love kineticists to death, but browsing around the internet I stumbled upon the fact that anti-magic field seems to totally neuter the class. Can anyone help me figure out a way a kineticist could do any damage to an enemy with the field on them? It's a little tough since a lot of the abilities a kineticist has don't have the same spell descriptors as regular spells. That being said I'd like to go by the rules as much as possible, as in what I could get away with if I were to use a kineticist in PFS.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
use a stick and hit them in the face.
A kineticist has no use for strength, little reason to carry any weapons, and not the best BAB. I think it's a little silly that every single class feature is rendered inert. Could a Kinetic Blast be fired into an anitmagic field? Something like a water or rock blast that's just firing an object at someone.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Antimagic is designed to neuter magic based classes. This includes Keneticist.
If your DM rules that a physical Kenetic Blast counts as an instantaneous conjuration then you can fire into an Antimagic Field just like a wizard can fire Acid Arrow into one.
Antimagic is designed to neuter magic based classes. This includes Keneticist.
If your DM rules that a physical Kenetic Blast counts as an instantaneous conjuration then you can fire into an Antimagic Field just like a wizard can fire Acid Arrow into one.
Yes, but most magic based classes have some ways to deal with anti magic field, such as high level spells or any conjuration with an instantaneous duration. There are RAW ways to deal with stuff. But I always like to play with PFS rules, so I don't feel I'm cheating and if I ever try to play at an organized event I can do things as I've always done them. This is kind of a big deal, deciding if a single spell can make my character useless or not, not some small detail.
Telekineticist could just start dropping rocks on their head. Most kineticists would be in trouble though.
So I love kineticists to death, but browsing around the internet I stumbled upon the fact that anti-magic field seems to totally neuter the class. Can anyone help me figure out a way a kineticist could do any damage to an enemy with the field on them? It's a little tough since a lot of the abilities a kineticist has don't have the same spell descriptors as regular spells. That being said I'd like to go by the rules as much as possible, as in what I could get away with if I were to use a kineticist in PFS.
Yeah, you are completely SOL in that situation unless you've got another fighting style to fall back on. I'd suggest not full on optimizing to squeeze every last drop of damage you can out of your magic powers, and develop another viable attack method.
The thing is, it's a lot harder for a Kineticist to multiclass. A wizard has so many more options for archetypes and prestige classes. Kineticist is so different from any other class that they don't get further progression into their damage and infusions if they don't stick to their core class.
And it's not just the three listed spells listed as exceptions in the spell description of antimagic shell that can work against it. I'm not about to go through every spell, but it's all instantaneous conjuration spells. You can, as mentioned by someone else, drop boulders on someone, alter the terrain, make a portal into space, idk. Most spellcasters have endless options. There's even Aroden's Spellbane, which can name antimagic field as a spell to dispell. A regular caster can also counterspell.
As far as not fighting the enemy goes, the spell lasts a long ass time, ~ an hour and a half per cast. It would be difficult to wait out.
All this being said, I just want to find some solutions as to what a kineticist could do to combat this.
I question why this is an issue. AMF is a 10ft emenation from the target. Just take a step back and fire with your physical blast which you probably have by the point AMF is a concern. Not like a potential AOO is all that troublesome for a con based class and k blasts are a standard action anyway.
Unless you're wondering what to do if you're warped to the classic dead magic plane of doom which is generally along the line of "pelt your GM with d4s for making you recalculate your entire character sheet (and also be useless)"
If AMF doesn't stop physical blasts then there is no problem. But far as I can tell it does. It's a spell like ability. I would be very very happy if physical blasts could go through
I do wonder what would happen to a telekinetic blast since the object is still there and presumably moving at high speed. It may be the same as the loosen the strands option, but even that is still effectively a spell.
I do wonder what would happen to a telekinetic blast since the object is still there and presumably moving at high speed. It may be the same as the loosen the strands option, but even that is still effectively a spell.
I do think that telekinetic blast is the exception. AMF says that physical missiles go through no problem, and that's all telekinetic strike really does, just throw an object. I don't think it would stop momentum of something, regardless of the origin of the propulsion.
Might seem like I'm just being a whiny baby but I just really don't want to be forced into an element. I had a character in mind of being a blood kineticist
Instantaneous conjurations work because once made, they aren't magic anymore. The magic was only used in the initial creation. If you google around a bit as I have, you'll see it's pretty cut and dry there. And counterspelling is countering a spell as it's cast, so it never comes into existence in the first place.
And I'm not saying AMF isn't an issue for other spellcasters, just that they can have some countermeasures.
I realize I'll have to lean on other party members if I encounter an AMF, I just haaate the feeling of being useless. That's part of the reason I fell in love with kineticist, they aren't as limited as other casters are with number of spells per day, they can blast almost indefinitely, only spending burn in dire situations where they need to nuke an enemy hard.
For the record, I have decided as my second expanded element to go with being an aether kineticist. That way I can launch whatever's laying around into an AMF, or if there's nothing around I'd be able to fire ice I can make (Even if I had an extremely stingy GM, I can create water and freeze it, as create water is an instantaneous conjuration). AMF is a pretty high level spell anyway so I don't see running into it before level 15.
An arcane archer who can fire AMFs could be a level 14 (CR 13) character without using prestigious spellcaster or the guild thing. It'd be a pretty rare enemy though I admit.
]If your DM rules that a physical Kenetic Blast counts as an instantaneous conjuration then you can fire into an Antimagic Field just like a wizard can fire Acid Arrow into one.Not so sure this would work as advertised. This is not an instantaneous spell, the magic is holding the arrow (made of acid) together and it might just get suppressed for its duration which is probably less than that of the AMF. But YMMV, might be worth a shot since darn few things will work (and assuming some clarifying FAQ isn't floating around I've missed). Even the fact it is instantaneous is not necessarily sufficient. Magic is still used in the creation of the effect and that can't happen within the AMF. Just means when the next creatures action occurs (next initiative point) the magic is no longer there or required for the effect to remain/continue (my thinking anyway).
Yes there are some high level spells that will work in an AMF. It's a pretty short list with only 2 immobile Walls and an immobile Sphere being a certainty, the rest the GM would have to say work. Forcecage,...
It’s explicit in the wording of Antimagic Field that they do work.
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration.
Summoned creatures of any type wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)
A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, undead, and outsider are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field.
Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field. Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field.
Instantaneous conjugations can be fired into an AMF, they just can’t originate inside one. The reason why is that magic just calls the object into being, once created they are self supporting.
If I use Fabricate to make a snowman, the final creation isn’t magic and is unaffected by an AMF. Similarly if I use the Snowball spell to make a super cold chunk of ice and throw it at a creature, the creation and initial throw are magic, but it’s still real ice with inertia once it hits the edge of the field.
Your answer is in the post right above yours. If the instantaneous conjuration is cast outside the AMF it can be thrown in. The AMF stops all casting within its area.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can’t cast inside the field. You fire the instantaneous conjuration from the outside aiming into the field. Once the object is conjured it’s a real thing and doesn’t go away just because magic stops
|
A Kinetic Blast of the energy type bounces off of Spell Resistance. A physical type blast bounces off of Damage Resistance instead... so a Physical Blast will penetrate an Anti-Magic field if it originates outside it's area off effect. (As stated above.)
Kinetic Blade & Whip will not work inside the affected area.
As a Fire Kineticist that would be susceptible to the SR of Outsiders, I acquired a Light Crossbow +1, Bane vs Outsiders [Evil] (that being the most common type of outsider with SR I would be likely to fight). As the class uses Dex as it's secondary stat, it's not an unreasonable weapon to carry around, and crossbow quarrels would hurt the caster as well as a not-so-magic sword.
I wouldn't worry overmuch about antimagic fields. If you want to play a blood kineticist, go for it.
I mean, obviously tables have variation, but since antimagic field is centered on the caster and stops their spells too, I've mostly only seen it used to disable magic traps or cursed items or such. There are a very few things in the bestiaries that could make better use out of it than a player could (dragons, some outsiders), but they tend to be rare, and that tactic even rarer.
I have never, ever, seen someone build their character around the possibility that they have to fight in an antimagic field, and I've never seen anyone regret that.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I have never, ever, seen someone build their character around the possibility that they have to fight in an antimagic field, and I've never seen anyone regret that.
Hmm, perhaps you've never seen it in person but I have built characters around the concept of not only fighting within an antimagic field, but using one and still remaining viable within it (everything stayed 'on'). Most of them took place back in 3.5e and involved some level of cheese to pull off.
If we limit it to just Pathfinder, I did have one character I built around the concept of not using any supernatural or spell-like abilities (except for Smite evil 1/day but it wasn't important) that had the side-effect of being only linearly effected by an antimagic field, rather than exponentially. That just means his items turned off but it didn't effect his performance outside of that, like crippling a part of his character mechanic. I've still got the character around here ... somewhere. Ah! Brawler (Exemplar) 17 / Chevalier 3 // VMC Cavalier of the Eastern Star. I played him in Council of Thieves up to level 15. Anti-magic fields came up ... 4 times? The GM doesn't always use the NPCs directly from the books because we like challenges.
Okay I can't speak for AA but I know I was speaking of full caster types not so much someone whose focus was martial vs caster. I believe that was what he was also referring to as well. While I don't think I've ever seen a martial built around functionality in Antimagic it certainly isn't the stretch that doing so for a full caster class would be.
Ah, well. In THAT case, I've built a melee oriented spellcasting character (or two) around the spell "Source Severance" and how best to use it against casters opposite of my own casting. My favorite of the bunch was a Nature Fang Druid in the Giantslayer campaign. Stopped those pesky Arcane spells user from getting uppity at higher levels. The second one was an Unlettered Arcanist (Witch Spells) in the Hell's Rebels campaign. Those were the two times I REALLY focused on concentration checks.
|
I wouldn't worry overmuch about antimagic fields. If you want to play a blood kineticist, go for it.
I mean, obviously tables have variation, but since antimagic field is centered on the caster and stops their spells too, I've mostly only seen it used to disable magic traps or cursed items or such. There are a very few things in the bestiaries that could make better use out of it than a player could (dragons, some outsiders), but they tend to be rare, and that tactic even rarer.
I have never, ever, seen someone build their character around the possibility that they have to fight in an antimagic field, and I've never seen anyone regret that.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Actually, Blood Kineticist is the one type that might work in an AM field. The blood work is the only Kintic thing I could find that was SU not SP. But its damage is based on the SP, so it might not. In any case, it starts at half the damage of a regular blast, then save to make it a quarter... that's not a lot to deal with. Sure, you ignore DR and don't have to make attack rolls, but...