Entropy point gain. "Damage = Benefit" mechanics never work.

[legolizard]

Super excited for the Vanguard . . . except for how they gain their primary resource of Entropy points.

This idea of "gaining benefits by getting damaged" has been around for a long time and it has never really worked. I remember trying it out with the good old crusader from the book of wee . . . Book of the nine swords.

So here are the problems I have always run into when using a class that has to take damage in order to use it's abilities.

1. Slow start - You have to take damage before you can do your cool stuff. Unless you are lowering your guard and running into attacks,you are not guaranteed to get damaged. Now starfinder has a large assortment of fun weapons you can use before taking damage and you can spend resolve points, but you will have to wait to use your more interesting abilities.

2. Feast or famine - You may end up getting no points because nothing is doing ENOUGH damage to you or not at all, or end up getting too many points that you lose or can't use because you are taking way too much damage. These are both issues but the first is by far the worse or the two. While the aspect trait at level 4 helps, it can only be used once per combat so it doesn't really fix the issue.

3. Self Damaging - someone always tries to cheese the system by self damaging in some way. Sure you can have the wording of the ability try to prevent this, but what is an "enemy" is up for interpretation. "Aren't we all just our own worst enemy, so me hurting myself counts right?" Point is, anything that requires a GM to constantly have to reaffirm or designate who is and isn't an enemy for game mechanics may lead to issues, both role playing wise and balance wise.

4. You should have dodged that - Damage should be avoided. If you make it in the characters best interest to lower their guard or not dodge a blow you may find they are taking a lot of unneeded damage. This will get them killed. I know there is the whole "cost vs. reward" argument, but eventually these mechanics always get characters killed. Also the death ends up not being impact full. More of a "unavoidable when you really think about it" scenario more than a "oh no how could this have happened?" scenario.

OK, so what do we do to fix this entropy point issue?

Make Entropy more Like grit points. Were dealing damage and taking damage gain us points. That way it feels really natural to go in swinging and take and give that damage the Vanguard was clearly intended to do. Possibly even make the Aspect entropy point regain work once per round instead of once per combat or have a Vanguard start the day with full points.

The Vanguard is supposed to be the front line fighter who is in the thick of it. Instead of making them the vanguards round be "I lower my defenses and don't dodge the first attack," make sure its "I charge in an bust his head open!"

[KLGChaos]

Good points and basically exactly what I was thinking. Especially point 4. The class has many ways to avoid and mitigate damage- heavy/power armor, the ability to invest heavily into Dex, shields, mitigate, DR feats. Not to mention randomness of enemy damage meaning you could still end up with zero points gained.

It actually almost seems counterintuitive to class design. You're a tank who needs to give up his tankiness to gain his primary resource to spend on the fun abilities. Most of which are highly limited anyway (once per combat or once per day).

And as you said, it promotes the class actively taking damage. This makes it harder and less fun for a Mystic who has to blow all his spells healing you after you waste all your stamina taking avoidable damage just so you can get enough points to use an ability. I guess maybe that's what they were doing for? Front load your points taking stamina damage and then start using points to mitigate hit point damage (though weapon damage far outclasses mitigate at higher levels).

[Xenocrat]

Cool story. What was your playtest experience with the class?

[WatersLethe]

I've been thinking about Vanguard all weekend and this thread is pretty much the conclusion I've come to, so I'll add my thoughts here.

I like the idea of the Vanguard, especially: (1) it's a tough class in a game with a lot of "don't ever get caught in the open" going on, (2) it has the option to ignore weapons, (3) it's "tanking" doesn't shoehorn aggro mechanics into the game, and (4) it has some interesting flavor.

The "damage=benefit" dynamic is the anchor around this class's neck, and I intend to show that when I get some more playtesting and analysis done.

The best and most familiar example I have of this mechanic is the World of Warcraft Warrior class in vanilla and now in the latest expansion I hear. A tank class who's primary resource is generated when hit by enemies, and the harder they're hit the more resource they get (iirc). What did this dynamic lead to? Massive complaints about being unable to function at the start of combat. Unintended interaction with other classes (A shield that absorbs damage used to negate rage gen). Eventually the damage=resource mechanic was scrapped (only to be re-added recently, I think). Every time resource generation was taken away from the players there's been an outcry of things not feeling good.

The point is, this isn't a novel idea. It's an interesting one, but it requires tons of tuning and feels awful if assumptions aren't met.

My recommendation is that the Vanguard should get a less costly means of generating EP that is under their control. Keep the "damage=benefit" mechanic primarily to allow them to recover from a hefty hit, not as a primary means of accessing their class features. Also allow players who want to use Resolve for health only to have a way to satisfyingly interact with the class (I tend to avoid all class options that use Resolve for anything but health management).

I'll suggest more specifics after playtesting, but yeah, I agree with OP.

[QuidEst]

1. In a pinch, you can spend RP for EP, although I probably wouldn't until level 10 when the trade improves. (Though I do wish it were a swift action, since you really need those move actions.) It's not really an issue at 1st (EP just boosts your AC, which hitting somebody will also do). At level 2 and 3, getting hit is almost guaranteed to be enough damage. At 4th, you get another way to gain a starter EP, including "getting missed" or "charging".

2. That's going to take several levels to start happening, of course. If you're taking too much damage, you spend your points to mitigate it as much as possible. I mean… if you were any other class, you'd just be dead already. If you're not getting hit for enough, then you're taking less than 2 x level damage per hit. If you finish the fight before you get hit (4 + Con mod/2 + 1) times, then you don't touch your HP during the fight. So… seven or eight times for most of your career.

I think the aspect trait does help considerably, though, since the first point is the most important (+1 AC against targets you didn't hit, you start getting your free weapon properties, and you've got an emergency use). If it's a concern, at level 6 you can also get a point from getting hit with energy damage, and you get to roll to reduce the damage.

3. I'd honestly like for this to be an option for emergency use, but it's not. It's almost always a bad trade, but having it available would make for some nice cinematic moments on the very rare occasions that it's worth it.

4. This really doesn't seem like the case. Level 2 sets the general tone for EP: it takes 4 damage to get 1 EP, and 1 EP prevents 2 damage, so it would have been better if you hadn't been hit for 4+ damage. Earning EP by damage is not a good trade; it's a consolation prize. If you run up in combat, you're going to get damaged. Unlike other classes, you get something useful when you're damaged. It's like how Solarian doesn't want combat to run long (that's more party resources spent, after all), but they're the only class that gets some consolation prize for a long combat, charging up a big ability.

I do feel that the need for at least 1 EP to turn on a lot of abilities means that your aspect "has" to be one that gives you an early EP pretty easily.

But, I also haven't had a chance to actually playtest this, so all I can offer is armchair analysis.

[legolizard]

QuidEst wrote:

1. In a pinch, you can spend RP for EP, although I probably wouldn't until level 10 when the trade improves. (Though I do wish it were a swift action, since you really need those move actions.) It's not really an issue at 1st (EP just boosts your AC, which hitting somebody will also do). At level 2 and 3, getting hit is almost guaranteed to be enough damage. At 4th, you get another way to gain a starter EP, including "getting missed" or "charging".

2. That's going to take several levels to start happening, of course. If you're taking too much damage, you spend your points to mitigate it as much as possible. I mean… if you were any other class, you'd just be dead already. If you're not getting hit for enough, then you're taking less than 2 x level damage per hit. If you finish the fight before you get hit (4 + Con mod/2 + 1) times, then you don't touch your HP during the fight. So… seven or eight times for most of your career.

I think the aspect trait does help considerably, though, since the first point is the most important (+1 AC against targets you didn't hit, you start getting your free weapon properties, and you've got an emergency use). If it's a concern, at level 6 you can also get a point from getting hit with energy damage, and you get to roll to reduce the damage.

3. I'd honestly like for this to be an option for emergency use, but it's not. It's almost always a bad trade, but having it available would make for some nice cinematic moments on the very rare occasions that it's worth it.

4. This really doesn't seem like the case. Level 2 sets the general tone for EP: it takes 4 damage to get 1 EP, and 1 EP prevents 2 damage, so it would have been better if you hadn't been hit for 4+ damage. Earning EP by damage is not a good trade; it's a consolation prize. If you run up in combat, you're going to get damaged. Unlike other classes, you get something useful when you're damaged. It's like how Solarian doesn't want combat to run long (that's more party resources spent,...

1. That "pinch" would be at the start of every combat pretty much and like you said its not really a worthwhile trade until 10th level. The 4th level ability is nice, but they are all "once per combat" and really don't solve the issue at all.

2. So what you are saying is this class has to spend points to keep enough stamina so they can earn other points so they can start having fun? Which was one of the two main points I was making. "Damage = benefit" mechanics always end up not only being counterproductive but not as fun as more active mechanic systems. I don't think it's really that bad of an idea to give them a more pro-active way to earn their entropy points.

3. Again, you are using far more resources than other classes would just to start using your abilities. You are taxing your consumables, or your resolve, or your healer. Its still counterproductive.

4. I will agree to disagree with you on this. I need to do more testing in the starfinder system with this mechanic. But in all other systems I played in that I used such mechanics the character usually dies because they end up using more hp and resources for little gain.

[Ascalaphus]

I'm not entirely sure how much I should want to gain entropy in the first place.

Let's start by noting that Mitigate is a bad idea, because it prevents only half of the damage you had to take to earn that EP. So the best it can do is "if you're going to take damage anyway because you're REALLY REALLY MELEE, you might as well have an extra buffer of damage prevention". It's not something you want to be in a position to use but if you're there, sure, use it.

Then, we get Entropic Attunement on our weapon - maybe. Unless you want to spend Resolve, it's really more up to enemies when you get this. Surrendering control like that is not really what I'd like to call "strategy". And what do you get for it? Some weapon properties that... well, don't really matter. Force weapons could be handy but incorporeal enemies aren't really all that common and now that our EAC isn't that much lower than our KAC, incorporeal enemies also don't have the huge to hit advantage that they had in Pathfinder. We can tough them out. Attunement also gives us crit effects so.. yay. We probably already have a crit effect due to the weapon we're using, and we can't use both at the same time. The crit effect from our weapon is always on, so let's rely on that. At level 10 we gain Reach - now it becomes kinda interesting, although Reach is at its best at the beginning of combat so we'd better just bring a reach weapon anyway.

What else do we spend EP on? Disciplines? The early disciplines do provide a good way to harvest EP (Intervene), and a couple of ways to spend them. Controlled Mental Degradation seems like a good ability, because you have a bad Will save. Accelerate is very dependent on the rest of the party to be good, and seems like it would only be good if you also took Friendly Fire. Dampen just looks bad next to Evasion. Curative Deconstruction, Evasion, Intervene (combined with Enhanced Resistance feat!) all don't use EP, and can easily fill up your low-level Discipline choices. So we don't really gain EP outlets.

Moving on to the level 6 Disciplines: Blindsense looks interesting and eventually leads to Blindsight, which is always a good thing. (Yay smoke grenades!) Shimmer Guard has a weirdly long duration for something that doesn't even cost anything to activate, and since we're an idiot trying to get enemies to only focus on us, it's another viable Discipline that doesn't cost EP. Vanguard Ferocity is pretty good (buying you another turn to strike back and hopefully end the fight), but reactivating it for 4(!!!) EP seems unlikely. If you had 4 EP and went down to 0HP, why weren't you using Mitigate?

Level 10 gives us more ways to not have a way to spend EP. Blindsight is something that's very easy to exploit with smoke grenades, Break Fall is probably a bit silly when Enhanced Resistance gives you DR 10/-, Clothesline looks good but reminds us that there's no Vanguard Aspect that gives Trip. And of course we're taking Improved Evasion.

At 14th level we're looking at
Poison Inured, because we're a melee class and Starfinder poison is actually scary. The other options look a bit meh.

At level 18 we get Absolute Zero, which can be used to inflict Slow (no save). This is the first EP ability that I get really excited about. Internal Reservoir would be awesome if EP were awesome, but right now it's not so much. Living Effigy is only useful if you spend multiple EP on it, otherwise it only lasts during the round where you had to spend a standard action to activate it.

---

So, conclusion: EP aren't useful enough for me to get really worked up about how hard they are to gain. I'm looking at a class with an automatically scaling weapon, lots of stamina, very generous skills for a martial class, and quite a few good defensive disciplines. If I act like EP don't even exist, my vision is a lot clearer.

So what else do we use EP for?

[Nyerkh]

I'm with Ascalaphus here. EPs don't feel like that much of a core feature of the class by any means.
They're nice to have but not necessary, to the point that if you really want to, you can somewhat ignore them - 1 point can be enough.

As far as generating them, I am however bothered by how the aspect embodiments are balanced, as it feels like some will grant you the 1 EP you really need quite reliably and/or easily, when others have much trickier conditions.

[QuidEst]

I think my difference is that mitigating damage is what I want to do. I want to be an unkillable juggernaut with DR, damage mitigation, evasion, and maxed Con. Throw on enough damage to make me relevant, plus enough skills to not embarrass myself, and I’m good.

Which option do you want to spend your points on that is fun for you?

[Alexander Augunas]

So I agree with the OP that, "Hit me please" mechanics have an inherent issue in that for the GM, it's almost NEVER "optimal tactics" to attack a character who gains a benefit from taking damage. It's basically the same issue that high AC builds had in Pathfinder. "Your AC is so high that this intelligent person will never hit you, so they're not going to try."

Personally, I think that the vanguard should get some special version of the Antagonize feat for free. Special in that they get to make some sort of Constitution check with a bonus instead of using Diplomacy or Intimidate, and that they should be able to use it more often then the Antagonize feat can typically be used. If the vanguard had a way it could consistantly make enemies attack it, then the fact that its designed to be "the defender class" is fine. But without that sort of mechanic, best tactics will be to just ignore the vanguard.

[WatersLethe]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

If the vanguard had a way it could consistantly make enemies attack it, then the fact that its designed to be "the defender class" is fine.

That'll be a hard pass for me. TTRPGs should never, ever have aggro mechanics. Antagonize is already on thin ice, but gets a pass in my book because it requires a decent Cha and relevant skills and is once per 24h.

If something doesn't make logical sense, the response shouldn't be to hard code illogical behavior into the game, it should be to make the desired outcome a viable behavior. So, if the enemy makes a check to identify the player as a Vanguard, they should absolutely be able to decide to avoid shooting them.

[Metaphysician]

WatersLethe wrote:

Alexander Augunas wrote:

If the vanguard had a way it could consistantly make enemies attack it, then the fact that its designed to be "the defender class" is fine.

That'll be a hard pass for me. TTRPGs should never, ever have aggro mechanics. Antagonize is already on thin ice, but gets a pass in my book because it requires a decent Cha and relevant skills and is once per 24h.

If something doesn't make logical sense, the response shouldn't be to hard code illogical behavior into the game, it should be to make the desired outcome a viable behavior. So, if the enemy makes a check to identify the player as a Vanguard, they should absolutely be able to decide to avoid shooting them.

I feel like, if the enemies do decide that they should ignore the Vanguard. . . this is itself an exploitable advantage, is it not? Everyone else can lean hard on the defense while the Vanguard freely repositions himself ( because no attacks of opportunity ), and punches the various enemies in the face.

[CptJames]

QuidEst wrote:

1. In a pinch, you can spend RP for EP, although I probably wouldn't until level 10 when the trade improves. (Though I do wish it were a swift action, since you really need those move actions.) It's not really an issue at 1st (EP just boosts your AC, which hitting somebody will also do). At level 2 and 3, getting hit is almost guaranteed to be enough damage. At 4th, you get another way to gain a starter EP, including "getting missed" or "charging".

To be honest, this has already got me thinking about the interaction with the Envoy that give you an extra move action, so you spend the RP for an EP then get a full round attack, it's really niche and probably never used but it's there.

Also I have to agree with Ascalaphus, I am going to playtest the Vanguard 3 times in 7 days (lvl 4, lvl 8 and again at lvl 4 - with changes) so I will give an update after...but EP just seems kinda meh and off to the side...I want it to either be relevant or not there.

And also with the other posters...I want to have high dex and AC...but I want to get hit...it just doesn't make sense...I have EAC/KAC 18 at level 4 (defrex and +3 dex) so I'm probably getting hit 50% of the time (EAC/KAC 19 once 1EP) so yeah...I'm not sure what to do about that..

[Ascalaphus]

I feel like I've been a bit too harsh. Constructive critique is useful but just tearing into isn't.

I really like the vanguard, it's already got a lot going for it:
* It's a beefy melee class that can survive a pounding.
* It makes dexterity melee combat work.
* It gives you real choices on whether to stay in the weapons rat race or accept a slightly less tricked out weapon and spend all the money on something else. (I'm addicted to armor upgrades.)
* Many of the defensive disciplines feel like things I'd be happy to choose. Good defenses against both area attacks with evasion and poisons with the deconstruction thing is really nice for a melee character. Starfinder poison and disease are scary.

It's just that Entropy Points are presented as kinda a big deal, and I think that they're not. The things you can do with them aren't quite awesome enough, and getting them is not a reliable process.

So what would I change? I'd try to make sure every EP-using ability is designed along these guidelines:
* It makes sense to start using this in the middle of a combat, not at the start (when you don't have EP yet). So any buffs probably should be swift or move actions because in the middle of the combat you're not going to not make an attack because you're taking a break to buff.
* It's fairly reliable. It probably doesn't give enemies a save. You already had to pay for it with something that you don't have that much control over getting. Double uncertainty relegates an EP discipline to the bin of "I'll just take a different one that I know will work".
* It's not circumstantial. If you can only use it when you have an unreliable resource, then the opportunity to use it should not be too rare. When you (finally) get an EP, the opportunity to do something awesome with it should be easily available.

My impression with EP was a bit like the charge-up powers of the assassin in Diable II (yeah, I'm that old), or barbarians striking back when hit in Torchlight.

Ideas that come to mind:
* Spend an EP to get another use of Reactive. You can't save up more than 1 use though. But it means that if you end the fight with an EP left over that you start the next fight with a vengeance.
* A discipline to strike back at someone who damaged you last turn, as a standard action/full attack: even or especially if that person is outside of your reach. Useful against big monsters with more reach than you or annoying gunmen.

[Ascalaphus]

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Personally, I think that the vanguard should get some special version of the Antagonize feat for free. Special in that they get to make some sort of Constitution check with a bonus instead of using Diplomacy or Intimidate, and that they should be able to use it more often then the Antagonize feat can typically be used. If the vanguard had a way it could consistantly make enemies attack it, then the fact that its designed to be "the defender class" is fine. But without that sort of mechanic, best tactics will be to just ignore the vanguard.

That's what the Intervene discipline is for.

And it sidesteps the thing that GMs hate about Antagonize, it doesn't force the monster to do stupid things.

The Shimmer Guard discipline also protects your allies, so that kinda funnels attacks back to you.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

Ascalaphus wrote:

And it sidesteps the thing that GMs hate about Antagonize, it doesn't force the monster to do stupid things.

Note that Starfinder's Antagonize doesn't force any creature to do anything. It just creates a temporary penalty to a target that the target can choose end by attacking you.

[KLGChaos]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I feel like I've been a bit too harsh. Constructive critique is useful but just tearing into isn't.

I really like the vanguard, it's already got a lot going for it:
* It's a beefy melee class that can survive a pounding.
* It makes dexterity melee combat work.
* It gives you real choices on whether to stay in the weapons rat race or accept a slightly less tricked out weapon and spend all the money on something else. (I'm addicted to armor upgrades.)
* Many of the defensive disciplines feel like things I'd be happy to choose. Good defenses against both area attacks with evasion and poisons with the deconstruction thing is really nice for a melee character. Starfinder poison and disease are scary.

It's just that Entropy Points are presented as kinda a big deal, and I think that they're not. The things you can do with them aren't quite awesome enough, and getting them is not a reliable process.

So what would I change? I'd try to make sure every EP-using ability is designed along these guidelines:
* It makes sense to start using this in the middle of a combat, not at the start (when you don't have EP yet). So any buffs probably should be swift or move actions because in the middle of the combat you're not going to not make an attack because you're taking a break to buff.
* It's fairly reliable. It probably doesn't give enemies a save. You already had to pay for it with something that you don't have that much control over getting. Double uncertainty relegates an EP discipline to the bin of "I'll just take a different one that I know will work".
* It's not circumstantial. If you can only use it when you have an unreliable resource, then the opportunity to use it should not be too rare. When you (finally) get an EP, the opportunity to do something awesome with it should be easily available.

My impression with EP was a bit like the charge-up powers of the assassin in Diable II (yeah, I'm that old), or barbarians striking back when hit in Torchlight.

Ideas that come to mind:
* Spend an EP...

Agreed. I can't help but compared this class to Solarian (being the other melee focused class with special powers) and I can't help but think how integral Stellar Manifestations are compared to EP and Vanguard Aspects. Solarians have a nice ramp up mechanic with buffs early, powers to get you into combat quickly or control the battlefield, are avaialable quickly, and they have the ability to explode with an awesome ability by round 3. They have complete control over it and once they do explode, they get to do it all over again.

EP and Aspects are nice, but are unreliable to gain, and in some cases use, don't add a ton to the class and are of very limited use. They can (almost) comfortably be ignored and you can just focus on building the ultimate tank, relying on disciplines and feat instead. They feel less like part of the class as a whole and more something that was tacked on because it "sounds cool".

[ghostunderasheet]

Your always going to be hit as a melee character might as well get some use out of it. At level five I I have been taking 20+ dmg hits. And tanking the heck out of them. My only problem is my dmg output. I only output a d6 worth of melee dmg.

[Dracomicron]

Here's my issue RE: Solarian vs. Vanguard.

The Solarian's Revelations are designed to get the combatant into melee and ramp up their effectiveness until round 3, at which point the combat is typically over within another round or so.

The Vanguard's Disciplines are designed for them to take less damage as the battle goes on, but they have enough Stamina and Hit Points so that they don't even really need it if the fight lasts 3-4 rounds. While they don't have the crazy damage output of Solarians, their Entropic Strike is extremely reliable and, supposing competent companions, they can contribute to ending the fight in about that amount of time.

So we have "The best defense is a good offense" vs. "the best defense is actually kinda unnecessary."

With the way EP are earned, and not stored between combats, you can't count on being able to actually use them for defensive stuff like Dampen when they are really useful at the start of the fight, so you basically want one point to activate your abilities. More than that is essentially unnecessary, so you can go for bonus feats or Evasion or whatnot.

This could change if EP could be used for something at the end of the fight (like automatic Hit Point/Stamina healing, say half the value of the damage taken to get the EP in the first place, 1/level/remaining EP) or if they innately gave you better offensive abilities (a damaging aura that fluctuates based on how many EP you have pooled).

[Metaphysician]

Note that "a good defense" is useful in more ways than one. If you know you have a bajillion HP/SP, and ways to take advantage of any serious loss of them ( ie, you can spend EP )? That means you, the player, can knowingly take risks that other classes wouldn't find prudent, since you know you can:

1) Survive if the risk turns bad

2) Turn it around into a new advantage

So, that "good defense" that Vanguards have is useful even in fights where it doesn't strictly matter, because the possibility of it mattering lets you act in different, or at least more varied, ways.