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If a god dies (like with Aroden) what happens to his petitioners? Do they just become free roaming petitioners of whatever plane they live on?
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A god does not have petitioners. The plane they inhabit has petitioners. The god is merely able to claim their souls should their alignment destine them for some other place. The souls would most likely begin to roam the plane they inhabit, or be shunted into the larger plane should they inhabit a personal plane of a particular deity.
Aside from that? *shrug* What do we mortals know?
A god does not have petitioners.
Don't the newly arrived worshippers start out as petitioners, and then "graduate" into whatever the native outside race is?
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Most petitioners eventually meld into the fabric of the plane and eventually are eroded away by the Maelstrom to have their quintessential energies recycled for the next cycle of the soul. Few "graduate" into a more powerful outsider form native to the plane, but that is definitely a possibility. Petitioners are outsiders though.
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If a god dies (like with Aroden) what happens to his petitioners? Do they just become free roaming petitioners of whatever plane they live on?
Aroden specifically still has a 'divine domain' in Axis, IIRC, but Iomedae has mostly taken it over, as the 'Inheritor.' Any incompatible petitioners (the LE ones, for instance, as that would have been a legitimate alignment choice even for *clerics* of Aroden, let alone lay worshippers), presumably shifted to Abadar or Norgorber or just wandered off into the city and became 'free-range' petitioners. I'm sure there are some still shuffling around up there waiting for Aroden to 'come back,' and everyone else just sort of averts their eyes from these poor souls.
As for other gods, I'd imagine it would depend on their plane of residence. What happened to Aroden's ex-petitioners is probably not the same as whatever happened to the souls of those who followed Curchanos or Acavna in life (since we don't even know where their divine realms were).
As petitioners have almost no memory of their mortal life, they probably don't associate strongly with a deity as a worshiper, though a deity may recognize them as their servant in their mortal life and take special care of them in the afterlife seeing that they are turned into the next stage of outsider rather than melding with the plane.
So, I guess my answer based on my understanding is, outside of a select group of petitioners, petitioners do not "belong" to a deity.
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As petitioners have almost no memory of their mortal life, they probably don't associate strongly with a deity as a worshiper, though a deity may recognize them as their servant in their mortal life and take special care of them in the afterlife seeing that they are turned into the next stage of outsider rather than melding with the plane.
So, I guess my answer based on my understanding is, outside of a select group of petitioners, petitioners do not "belong" to a deity.
If they worshipped a god, they go to that god's realm and are subject to his/her control. Calistria's worshippers show up in her realm and are possibly mostly left alone to do what they want, Asmodeus's show up in Hell and are very much not left alone, LG gods get their intake in heaven and recruit/organize as they choose, etc.
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Where is that stated?
Not that I don't believe you but I reread the entry for petitioners when I posted yesterday and didn't really get that vibe or information from it.
I agree that they go to the deity's plane that they worshipped, but beyond that there doesn't seem to be a concrete "you're tied to this deity".
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Deity
Pharasma
Outer Sphere (especially planar metaphysics)
River of Souls
Boneyard
Souls
Petitioner
Plane
Mortality
At the end of the creature's mortal life, its soul leaves its body and manifests in the Ethereal Plane, beginning its journey with other souls via the River of Souls <snip> The goddess Pharasma judges these souls at her spire in the Boneyard for their distribution to patron deities or Outer Sphere planes, where she serves as the final arbiter over contested souls.
<snip>
Souls that travel to a patron's realm are known as petitioners who await their final judgment at their patron's hands. In some cases, these souls earn eternal peace or meld with quintessence to become outsiders in their patron deity's plane. In others, they are rejected and sent to serve an infernal punishment. Their forms might change depending on their patron or become more idealized versions of their mortal selves.
So there we go. Hashtag, "not all petitioners" I guess.
So you agree that petitioners aren't necessarily tied to a deity?
I'm not sure what you're suggesting here.
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The ones who were tied to a deity remain tied to a deity. The ones who weren't don't. Some exceptions apply. No purchase necessary. Do not taunt Happy Fun God.
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So you agree that petitioners aren't necessarily tied to a deity?
I'm not sure what you're suggesting here.
I'm suggesting,
The ones who were tied to a deity remain tied to a deity. The ones who weren't don't. Some exceptions apply. No purchase necessary. Do not taunt Happy Fun God.
I mean, I thought that was pretty straight forward?
Literally the only thing I did was put forward a large number of sources (or just a number of pages from one source, depending on your accounting, all of which have various sources) all about PF's afterlife and highlighting a single one that indicates exactly what happens to creatures that are called "petitioners."
EDIT:
I mean, if you want me to make the context more clear...
As petitioners have almost no memory of their mortal life, they probably don't associate strongly with a deity as a worshiper, though a deity may recognize them as their servant in their mortal life and take special care of them in the afterlife seeing that they are turned into the next stage of outsider rather than melding with the plane.
So, I guess my answer based on my understanding is, outside of a select group of petitioners, petitioners do not "belong" to a deity.
If they worshipped a god, they go to that god's realm and are subject to his/her control. Calistria's worshippers show up in her realm and are possibly mostly left alone to do what they want, Asmodeus's show up in Hell and are very much not left alone, LG gods get their intake in heaven and recruit/organize as they choose, etc.
Where is that stated?
At the end of the creature's mortal life, its soul leaves its body and manifests in the Ethereal Plane, beginning its journey with other souls via the River of Souls <snip> The goddess Pharasma judges these souls at her spire in the Boneyard for their distribution to patron deities or Outer Sphere planes, where she serves as the final arbiter over contested souls.
<snip>
Souls that travel to a patron's realm are known as petitioners who await their final judgment at their patron's hands. In some cases, these souls earn eternal peace or meld with quintessence to become outsiders in their patron deity's plane. In others, they are rejected and sent to serve an infernal punishment. Their forms might change depending on their patron or become more idealized versions of their mortal selves.
That's the flow of the conversation.
Seems like Pharasma judges them to send them to the appropriate place.
They are then in the hands of a god who gets to influence the final outcome.
Calistria is generally pretty permissive 'bout stuff long as she's not directly displeased. (She's CN living in CG country, after all.)
Asmodeus... isn't. Also "the damned" are explicitly tortured.
I don't even see it as absolute that they go to the plane of the deity they worshiped (though there's a lot of info there and, while I read it, I may have missed something - my Eldest is sick, and I'd be glad to take quotes to the contrary). Once there, though, they seem to be placed into the hands of whatever deity is in charge, locally.
I'unno what else you'd want me to suggest?
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Hmmm.. why would anyone worship Asmodeus if they knew they would be tortured? I was thinking maybe only those who displease him get tortured. Those who obey him faithfully get to do the torturing instead.
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I reckon there are lots of reasons.
Probably the most obvious one is trading suffering in the next world for power in this one. Theres probably a spectrum of "it cant get worse" to "ill be i can weasle out of this" on the list of reasons why for this.
Then theres probably a bunch of people who think devils are superior to everyone else for one reason or another and opt in accepting that the torture is part of the entry fee for being an awesome devil. (everyone in this group probably assume they'll end up as a devil instead of being used as the mortar in the wall of some infernal city cause they "get it")
Theres probably some group of people that figures Hell will win in the end anyway so might as well get the torture out of the way now to maybe get a shot at something not terrible at the end of eternity
There's also supporting the absolute law and order side of things which probably appeals to a lot of people for security and safety and they accept that part of that stability is a little torture
Also, none of those options are mutually exclusive so theres probably as many blends of those ideas and more as there are folks who worship Asmodeus.
Also, I guess technically its the soul that was put in me getting tortured, not me specifically since my me-ness gets tossed when Pharasma sends me down the garbage chute so why do I care if some lump of soul stuff gets tortured for eternity? I wont be there to feel it.
The ones who were tied to a deity remain tied to a deity. The ones who weren't don't. Some exceptions apply. No purchase necessary. Do not taunt Happy Fun God.
But... what if the Happy Fun God likes to be taunted?
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Hmmm.. why would anyone worship Asmodeus if they knew they would be tortured? I was thinking maybe only those who displease him get tortured. Those who obey him faithfully get to do the torturing instead.
You've got to go through boot camp before you can be a Marine.
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All I really saw Tacticslions is "they go to await judgement at the deity's hands". But that doesn't really inform what happens at all.
I'll agree that deities have a lot of power on the planes they reside on, and as such they can control petitioners there in the same sort of way that you control the water level in a bath tub, or it's temperature.
I guess I'm thinking about it in a more in the manner of how the petitioners relate to the deity, which based on their description I honestly can imagine is that much. So they can be coerced or controlled.
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It's also not true petitioners completely forget their former lives. According to Pathfinder wiki most have at least some memories of their life. Also there are a few official outsiders (Trelmarixian The Horseman Of Famine as well as a balor lord who's name I forget in Wrath Of The Righteous) who completely remember their mortal lives. I'm not sure if it is random or something else. My guess would be the more powerful the outsider the more they remember.
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Upon departing Pharasma's realm, a judged soul emerges onto its new home plane, its memories and personality from its days as a mortal wiped clean.
....
Regardless of a soul's final destination, upon receiving Pharasma's judgment, it finds itself changed. No longer a mortal being, the soul has become a petitioner, a true native of the plane it now inhabits. Petitioners are outsiders, and as they've begun new lives, they can no longer be returned to life by mortal magic.
Exceptions exist, of course, but overall the souls have started a new existence. I'm sure if your patron deity wants you to remember your previous life, they have the power to make it happen. That might be a perk of worshipping them, so you actually get to experience the afterlife as yourself. How you want that to work in your own games can differ.
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Just a thought: the spell speak with dead says it works be accessing memories still in the corpse. Perhaps why they lose there memories is because most of them are left in the corpse.
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Just a thought: the spell speak with dead says it works be accessing memories still in the corpse. Perhaps why they lose there memories is because most of them are left in the corpse.
Indeed. Memories of the person's life are gained by their body and stored within it. When the soul becomes a petitioner, it gains a 'new' body (soul and body are actually one at that point), so it does reason that their previous memories are left behind.
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Just a thought: the spell speak with dead says it works be accessing memories still in the corpse. Perhaps why they lose there memories is because most of them are left in the corpse.
Since it's not just memories 'left behind' but also mechanical stuff like racial talents and languages and skills and feats and class levels, a corpse seems to be sort of a potential gold mine just lying there. A 20th level Paladin dies gloriously to become a 1 HD Petitioner in Heaven, while everything that made her what she was is lying there on the muddy ground, waiting to be accessed by spells like speak with dead.
In such a cosmology, a necromancy spell that drew the class levels and 'power' out of a corpse and fed them to the caster (or some designated third party), would seem de rigeur.
"No, no. I can't kill you *yet.* You can't die until you can cast 5th level spells. I already have a buyer lined up..."
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Since it's not just memories 'left behind' but also mechanical stuff like racial talents and languages and skills and feats and class levels, a corpse seems to be sort of a potential gold mine just lying there. A 20th level Paladin dies gloriously to become a 1 HD Petitioner in Heaven, while everything that made her what she was is lying there on the muddy ground, waiting to be accessed by spells like speak with dead.
I'm not sure where you got the idea to extrapolate from 'memories' left behind to everything else mechanical. The moment of death renders the corpse into (effectively) an object. Even extrapolating to accessing the abilities the creature HAD possess is a bit of a reach. Spells like animate dead work off of racial HD, not class levels. Specifically, the skeleton and zombie templates call out to ignore HD from classes. You don't want to animate humanoid undead because you typically get 1 HD weaklings. You need fairly specific spells that allow the retention of class HD in the templated creature.
Looking at this, one can reason that all that 'power' that was at the disposal of the person prior to death was linked to their soul, and that has moved on to be judged at some later date. This has some interesting theoretical implications that all the power a character acquires during leveling up is manifested directly from their soul (or quintessence, as the planar adventures labels). This would also give some weight to arguments that necromancy spells that access the talents and abilities of dead things (ie, their souls) aside from just their memories actually harms the journey of that soul towards the Boneyard, or weakens it on its journey.
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The ones who were tied to a deity remain tied to a deity. The ones who weren't don't. Some exceptions apply. No purchase necessary. Do not taunt Happy Fun God.But... what if the Happy Fun God likes to be taunted?
Especially then.
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In such a cosmology, a necromancy spell that drew the class levels and 'power' out of a corpse and fed them to the caster (or some designated third party), would seem de rigeur.
"No, no. I can't kill you *yet.* You can't die until you can cast 5th level spells. I already have a buyer lined up..."
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I'm not sure where you got the idea to extrapolate from 'memories' left behind to everything else mechanical.
Just extrapolating from how, like the memories, which somehow cling or leave an echo behind for speak with dead to contact, stuff like your skills, feats, racial traits, class abilities, even languages known, don't transfer to the petitioner you become (or, perhaps more accurately, since the petitioner shares so little of 'you', the petitioner that replaces you?).
A larvae is a larvae, doesn't matter if it was a blue dragon with mythic tiers and a few levels in infernal sorcerer, or a Chelaxian commoner 1 with a sadistic streak.
All that power had to go *somewhere.*
It just seems wasteful, otherwise, and I'm really 'getting' Urgathoa for the first time. "What, become a 1 HD worm, with a human head, with no memories, no mythic levels of wizardry, nothing to show for my amazing life? Hard pass. I'll show myself out."
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I'm not sure where you got the idea to extrapolate from 'memories' left behind to everything else mechanical.Just extrapolating from how, like the memories, which somehow cling or leave an echo behind for speak with dead to contact,
I'm guessing it works the same way Stone Tell makes rocks remember things that happened to them. Which surely has nothing to do with any souls.
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Just extrapolating from how, like the memories, which somehow cling or leave an echo behind for speak with dead to contact, stuff like your skills, feats, racial traits, class abilities, even languages known, don't transfer to the petitioner you become (or, perhaps more accurately, since the petitioner shares so little of 'you', the petitioner that replaces you?).
Indeed, that power DOES go somewhere. It follows the soul to the Boneyard and is available for recovery up until the point of judgement and the soul moves on to its new existence. At that point, mortal magic can not restore the soul to life. The 'power' or quintessence of the soul is now transferred to the plane of existence (or deity) it resides in, strengthening it just as the Maelstrom eats away at it over time. Eventually, the entire soul meets the same fate, only to be recycled again.
So why DO petitioners lose all their memories? I think it's to explain why, say, a level 20 wizard turns into a CR 2 creature after he dies but it bothers me as well. I think maybe they should retain most of their memories but not remember how to cast spells or other class features.
Memories stay with the body. When the soul becomes a petitioner, they get a new "body" as an outsider (body and soul are united into one form). If a deity wishes, they have the ability to allow the new outsider to retain their memories, but otherwise no.
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Which just raises more questions, such as: why would they wipe the memory of a level 20 character? Seems like a good thing to have on their side.
The why is not explained.
^Because they forgot?
Which just raises more questions, such as: why would they wipe the memory of a level 20 character? Seems like a good thing to have on their side.
High level people probably become higher level outsiders if their petitioner form transforms into that rather than merging with their plane. But you don’t necessarily want your powerful new recruit to be persuing his old agendas rather than yours.
In addition to what Bjørn Røyrvik linked, keep in mind Eastern concepts of the afterlife, which generally treat your mortal life as baggage that needs to be shed, and should be shed.
^Because they forgot?
Personally, I don't think they forgot. I believe they left it open ended for reasons. No one likes the idea that their 20th level character moves on to become a level 2 outsider. They don't like to accept that after judgement, that's IT for their character, they're finished, permanently. Looking at it with a rational, logical perspective, it seems very likely that the beings that exist in the Outer Planes would want to preserve the personality and (most) memories of that powerful mortal because something was DIFFERENT with them. Most mortals don't reach level 5 and don't bring with them such concentrated power.
It is my belief (and how I run my campaign world) that religions and the gods offer a true taste of immortality, provided their worshippers actually prove their worth. Those that exist outside of the "religions" have to face the vast eternity of non-existence on their own, just as they seemed to prefer while they lived. They become fuel for the machine that drives the universe. The more intelligent (or desperate) finds ways around this, through things like undeath and everlasting life.
Especially then.The ones who were tied to a deity remain tied to a deity. The ones who weren't don't. Some exceptions apply. No purchase necessary. Do not taunt Happy Fun God.But... what if the Happy Fun God likes to be taunted?
Q.Q
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Here's another thought: perhaps the gods only have a finite amount of energy they can use to keep a petitioner's memories intact. Thus, while they probably would preserve a level 20 cleric's memories, they obviously wouldn't do so for a level 1 commoner.
So why DO petitioners lose all their memories? I think it's to explain why, say, a level 20 wizard turns into a CR 2 creature after he dies but it bothers me as well. I think maybe they should retain most of their memories but not remember how to cast spells or other class features.
It's most likely because we don't want outsiders who amass sufficient power to decide the thing that is most important to them is to return to the material plane and settle old scores. For the most part "remembering what you did" isn't important for your life as an outsider, so you don't have ready access to your memories.
IIRC, those memories are still there in a sense and outsiders still can get glimpses of their mortal lives from time to time, though this might require an outside force to trigger the memory (this is IIRC what Desna did for Arueshalae.)
Would an actual god, let alone every one of the gods be deciding what it is important to save always and only want to preserve only the physically and magically powerful. Are all the gods merely wargamey players? I also feel sad that no one seems capable of feeling that the only thing of importance in a hugely qualitative change is whether the power numbers work out.
Rather a failure of vision by my way of thinking. I am glad that the concept of leaving behind distractions to advance to a new life has been brought up. I worry that the thought of becoming one with all the things you care about is looked at with fear and disgust by so many vocal players.
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Would an actual god, let alone every one of the gods be deciding what it is important to save always and only want to preserve only the physically and magically powerful. Are all the gods merely wargamey players? {. . .}
[Earth-influenced-rant]How do you think they got to be divine in the first place?[/Earth-influenced-rant]
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I worry that the thought of becoming one with all the things you care about is looked at with fear and disgust by so many vocal players.
I worry that "becoming one with all the things you care about" is viewed as a desirable outcome by, well, anybody.
I worry that the thought of becoming one with all the things you care about is looked at with fear and disgust by so many vocal players.I worry that "becoming one with all the things you care about" is viewed as a desirable outcome by, well, anybody.
I worry (because my brain is biologically programmed to do so) that people worry about things, given the inevitability of the destruction of all things, and the lack of any free will or ability to alter your ultimately doomed circumstances. Just sit back, relax, and find out what you were always going to do.
I think the whole idea of losing all your memories (which are a big part of your sense of self) is just inherently scary, even if your afterlife is way better than your mortal life.
I worry (because my brain is biologically programmed to do so) that people worry about things, given the inevitability of the destruction of all things, and the lack of any free will or ability to alter your ultimately doomed circumstances. Just sit back, relax, and find out what you were always going to do.I worry that the thought of becoming one with all the things you care about is looked at with fear and disgust by so many vocal players.I worry that "becoming one with all the things you care about" is viewed as a desirable outcome by, well, anybody.
Determinism is philosophical and intellectual laziness.