Goblin Squad Member
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I am curious to know if the EVE fast travel method known as "Pod Express" will work in Pathfinder.
Basically the PFO version of the trick would consist of making sure you have nothing of value unthreaded and then deliberately dieing. Useful if you want to scout an area and return instantly home with out traveling back half a dozen hex for example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see death penalties beyond just gear loss. I remember in LotRO dying added "dread" to your character which I know lowered your maximum health and I believe also lowered damage and healing output.
This was a timed debuff, after a certain point it wore off.
I really would love to see something similar in PFO, and perhaps increase the severity and duration if it happens again before the fist instance wears off. I'd also like to see it apply itself to non-combat activities such as gathering and crafting. Hell, maybe even movement speed if you build up too many stacks.
So if you suicide railroad to home, you can prettymuch reconcile yourself to your character being useless for as long as it takes to burn off the stacks you built up.
If your settlement is under siege and you die in the battle, or your in the besieging party and have a way of getting back fast, expect to be nerfed to uselessness if you keep throwing yourself headlong into the fray too many times too quickly.
It's a far cry from permadeath but it does give death a bit more of a sting if you're behaving in a reckless manner.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Suggested way to make it work. Each death gives 1 stack plus +10 minute duration to all previous stacks. Each stack gives 5% penalty to all stats. Crafting/gathering are not penalized until the 3rd stack. Movement speed on the 5th. Stacks wear off one at a time.
So like this:
1st death:
-5% health and damage / healing output. 20 minute duration.
2nd death (if no time elapses between it and the 1st death):
-10% health and damage / healing output. 20 minute duration + 30 minute duration on first stack once 2nd stack wears off.
3rd death (if no time elapses between it and the 1st death):
-15% health, damage / healing output, and the duration of crafting/gathering actions. 20 minute duration + 30 minute duration on second stack once third stack wears off and +40 minute duration on the first stack once the second stack wears off.
4th death (if no time elapses between it and the 1st death):
-15% health, damage / healing output, and the duration of crafting/gathering actions. 20 minute duration + 30 minute duration on third stack once fourth stack wears off and +40 minute duration on the second stack once the third stack wears off. +50 minutes duration on the first stack once the second stack wears off.
5th death (if no time elapses between it and the 1st death):
-20% to health, damage / healing output, the duration of crafting/gathering actions, and movement speed. 20 minute duration + 30 minute duration on fourth stack once fifth stack wears off and +40 minute duration on the third stack once the fourth stack wears off. +50 minutes duration on the second stack once the third stack wears off. +60 minutes duration on the first stack once the second stack wears off.
Etc up to 20 stacks where you have a -100% penalty to everything and ridiculous timers to burn all the stacks off.
So in general play nobody should be dying more than once every 20 minutes, making these penalties really minor to them. But if you choose to kill yourself / get yourself killed a bunch of times within a short timespan you'll get huge penalties with long durations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see death penalties beyond just gear loss. I remember in LotRO dying added "dread" to your character which I know lowered your maximum health and I believe also lowered damage and healing output.
This was a timed debuff, after a certain point it wore off.
I really would love to see something similar in PFO, and perhaps increase the severity and duration if it happens again before the fist instance wears off. I'd also like to see it apply itself to non-combat activities such as gathering and crafting. Hell, maybe even movement speed if you build up too many stacks.
So if you suicide railroad to home, you can prettymuch reconcile yourself to your character being useless for as long as it takes to burn off the stacks you built up.
If your settlement is under siege and you die in the battle, or your in the besieging party and have a way of getting back fast, expect to be nerfed to uselessness if you keep throwing yourself headlong into the fray too many times too quickly.
It's a far cry from permadeath but it does give death a bit more of a sting if you're behaving in a reckless manner.
This is seriously a bad idea for those that are victim to spawn point camping.
There was some of that (spawn camping) one Friday and it will be practiced by some for fun and under this would go until newly spawned character can not even stand.|
Goblin Squad Member
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The solution to that is safe spawns. If you are safe inside the spawn then the best course of action is to report campers to the GMs and wait.
Yes, but … after it has happened it is too late.
Rather that how many times respawn, how far from original death. If defending my settlement and rushing back to the front, that is not abuse.|
Goblin Squad Member
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It may be too late after the first or second time but if you get camped enough to build up major penalties before you contact a GM. I'm sorry but that's just your own stupidity.
And you have to remember. Griefers get banned. If they persist in such actions they are removed from the game. I fail to see spawncamping as something that will be a major concern as it's one of the most clearcut cases of griefing so players that do it will be disappearing both removing them from the player pool and scaring others straight. The reason spawncamping persists in other games is a lack of both safe spawns and any GM action about it.
Respawning 5 billion times during a siege is not abuse but personally when I kill someone in a battle, and they don't have someone nearby with the magic to bring them back it would be nice to make it so that continually throwing themselves back into the fray within a short period of time isn't a super viable tactic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... when I kill someone in a battle, and they don't have someone nearby with the magic to bring them back it would be nice to make it so that continually throwing themselves back into the fray within a short period of time isn't a super viable tactic.
There will be injury points, which stack onto that guy with each crit you inflict. Do they get erased at death or do they carry through? If they carry through, eventually he's going to need to take a time out in a tavern or temple.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would suggest that on respawn you do have some sort of debuff stacks like Andius laid out but to keep things balenced and to stop spawn camping when someone has these debuffs have a sliding scale directly proportional of rep hit to an attacker (even if the spawned normally would be a rep free kill) for killing them again while having recently dead stacks. Maybe this could be extended to having a much smaller rep hit with the first kill of a non-consenting PvPer but would escalate rapidly with kills of dead stacked characters. This could also lead to it being viable to kill someone poaching your land once without incurring huge rep loss if they are unaffiliated and high rep but not over and over again. You kill them because they are ninja harvesting, get a small rep hit, loot their corpse, they get dead stacks that reduce their effectiveness for a while and lose their stuff. It it stops greifing them as further kills while they have stacks as this would 10-100x the rep loss. If they come back for more you can be right there waiting for them and once the stacks are gone drop them again if they don't leave. This is even if they are not feuded or at war or opposite faction and so forth. I'm sure there are plenty of holes in this idea but with a dead stack debuff penalty both sides lose something and it gives meaning with scaling consequences on both sides for greifing either as a Ninja harvester or a spawn camper.
Ok people, let's see how you tear that idea apart. Has this already been thought of and dropped before? If so I missed it but it would seem to tie in well with all mechanics so far described in the game while still allowing bandits to kill once indiscriminately with a rep loss that could recover in say 20 minutes instead of days for a first kill but easily jump to 20 hrs or days for repeat offenses. Of course legitimate targets don't have any rep hit for first kills and only minor but scaling for further kills on dead stacked respawns who jump right back into it but they start really becoming less effectve if they do.
So what do you all think?
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Goblin Squad Member
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... when I kill someone in a battle, and they don't have someone nearby with the magic to bring them back it would be nice to make it so that continually throwing themselves back into the fray within a short period of time isn't a super viable tactic.There will be injury points, which stack onto that guy with each crit you inflict. Do they get erased at death or do they carry through? If they carry through, eventually he's going to need to take a time out in a tavern or temple.
That has the negative effect of making crit heavy builds good at taking people out of battles longterm, and non-crit heavy builds useless at it. I'd rather have dead is dead, and the penalties for death be universal unless someone death curses you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It may be too late after the first or second time but if you get camped enough to build up major penalties before you contact a GM. I'm sorry but that's just your own stupidity.
And you have to remember. Griefers get banned. If they persist in such actions they are removed from the game. I fail to see spawncamping as something that will be a major concern as it's one of the most clearcut cases of griefing so players that do it will be disappearing both removing them from the player pool and scaring others straight. The reason spawncamping persists in other games is a lack of both safe spawns and any GM action about it.
Respawning 5 billion times during a siege is not abuse but personally when I kill someone in a battle, and they don't have someone nearby with the magic to bring them back it would be nice to make it so that continually throwing themselves back into the fray within a short period of time isn't a super viable tactic.
I would think for large scale battles that you would have clerics on standby at spawn points to mitigate the dead stacks and injuries and get their warriors back to the battle, that is if they are not just rezzed on the battlefield. Clerics should be able to remove the death debuff stacks or a tavern either completely or at an accelerated rate. This would also again reduce the rep penalty back to a first kill level of only minor or nothing if they are a cleric or have a cleric friend removing the penalties each time they spawn. They would still lose durability and any none threaded gear so there are still down sides to being or having a cleric handy to remove the debuffs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...to keep things balenced and to stop spawn camping when someone has these rebuffs have a sliding scale directly proportional of rep hit to an attacker (even if the spawned normally would be a rep free kill) for killing them again while having recently dead stacks.
Depends. Is spawn camping feuded targets considered griefing? If so this doesn't address that. I think safe spawns does though. By safe spawns I mean when you spawn into a spawn point you aren't attackable until you leave the spawn point.
Probably the simplest way to do this is spawning you in an unattackable ghost form that becomes physical as soon as you leave the spawn point.
If people choose to sit right outside the spawn point to prevent you from leaving that's pretty clearly griefing IMO, and should probably earn the banhammer if they are warned and don't stop.
The other incredibly simple way to deal with this is some form of mechanic that starts dealing damage to you if you stay within a certain distance of spawn area for more than 2 minutes in physical form unless your group controls the spawn (in which case enemies shouldn't even be able to spawn there).
You could still surround a spawn with enough people I'm sure but this would make spawn camping a WAY less viable tactic if they have to sit 200 meters outside the spawn area as opposed to say... 0. Especially if that is outside character visibility range.
That being said, if the penalty is removed any time the opponent who killed you takes a reputation hit for doing so... I can't come up with too many downsides to that system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Make it so you just appear on your body as a ghost, and then have to run back to a town to find a healer, then run back to your body to get all your gear! Hopefully nobody else found your body before you get back so that the gear is still there !!!!!!!!
Pro Tip: Never Return to Your Corpse
Returning to your corpse is never a good idea, especially if your death was the result of PVP.
First, if you had anything of value, it is safer to think it is gone.
Second, those that killed you, are likely waiting to see if you are foolish enough to return, so they can kill you again.
Third, if you think to bring some friends with you this time, don't be surprised if those that killed you didn't think of doing the same.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...to keep things balenced and to stop spawn camping when someone has these rebuffs have a sliding scale directly proportional of rep hit to an attacker (even if the spawned normally would be a rep free kill) for killing them again while having recently dead stacks.Depends. Is spawn camping feuded targets considered griefing? If so this doesn't address that. I think safe spawns does though. By safe spawns I mean when you spawn into a spawn point you aren't attackable until you leave the spawn point.
Probably the simplest way to do this is spawning you in an unattackable ghost form that becomes physical as soon as you leave the spawn point.
If people choose to sit right outside the spawn point to prevent you from leaving that's pretty clearly griefing IMO, and should probably earn the banhammer if they are warned and don't stop.
The other incredibly simple way to deal with this is some form of mechanic that starts dealing damage to you if you stay within a certain distance of spawn area for more than 2 minutes in physical form unless your group controls the spawn (in which case enemies shouldn't even be able to spawn there).
You could still surround a spawn with enough people I'm sure but this would make spawn camping a WAY less viable tactic if they have to sit 200 meters outside the spawn area as opposed to say... 0. Especially if that is outside character visibility range.
That being said, if the penalty is removed any time the opponent who killed you takes a reputation hit for doing so... I can't come up with too many downsides to that system.
I can see safe spawn points being a viable solution for the character who was killed but I am also looking at ways for the killer to have the option for a small to no penalty to take out anyone once but after that not being able to easily have himself or a friend repeat killing the same person without a much steeper penalty.
Either way, thanks for the feedback.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see death penalties beyond just gear loss. I remember in LotRO dying added "dread" to your character which I know lowered your maximum health and I believe also lowered damage and healing output.
Death is LOTRO was a joke like it is in most other MMORPG's out there. I'd like to see death be a real event. You die, you don't immediately leave your body. If you leave your body (depart) without any clerical intervention whatsoever, you permanently lose XP. With clerical intervention you could be raised (should take a lot of skill) or players can use other skills to reduce or remove your XP loss upon departing. Both of these options should take a significant amount of time, based on the skill of the player performing the clerical acts. This type of system would make dying a serious ordeal but not one you can't recover from, and it would pretty much remove the usage of "travel by suicide".
I'm also in favor of removing "bind points" unless it's accompanied by a skill that takes a significant amount of time to train.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's still TBD whether we'll let you respawn at your choice of any threaded bind point, or just close ones. Doubtless, there will be some use of the Suicide Railroad no matter what we do, but we don't really want it to become common behavior or strategically significant.
Here's an idea that adds a bit more complexity but also more nuance.
Atm, you're saying options on respawn are, either:-
1. "Respawn at your choice of any threaded bind point." OR
2. "[Respawn at] just close ones."
=
Now if we conceptualize your soul-binding as in the Ethereal Plane for your soul to travel to soul-binding to reform a body.
We have:-
1. Material Plane where your body exists
2. On Death your soul now has options depending on WHERE it is in RELATION to your chosen Soul-Binding points:-
i. Your soul-binding points: IF one, then greater radius and you travel instantly back to it in that radius. IF more less radius but more of them and so on.
ii. If you die outside the radius of your soul-binding, your soul enters the ethereal plane and must travel to within the nearest radius of it's soul-binding point before the transmission is reconnected and you "respawn".
You could make the ethereal plane a sort of dreamworld overlay or alternative spatial dimension with the Soul-binding points like beacons. Here there could be ethereal dangers and demons that could cause further soul-damage to the character if caught up and that would cause a greater death penalty on respawn.
In time, it could be a whole other side of the game to explore further...
Take-homes:-
1. Variable risk cannot be predicted
2. Further the soul has to travel in the ethereal world the longer the reconnection to it's nearest or chosen soul-binding points.
3. Fits the lore is very thematic to high fantasy.
4. Potential scope for future.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see death penalties beyond just gear loss. I remember in LotRO dying added "dread" to your character which I know lowered your maximum health and I believe also lowered damage and healing output.
Death is LOTRO was a joke like it is in most other MMORPG's out there. I'd like to see death be a real event. You die, you don't immediately leave your body. If you leave your body (depart) without any clerical intervention whatsoever, you permanently lose XP. With clerical intervention you could be raised (should take a lot of skill) or players can use other skills to reduce or remove your XP loss upon departing. Both of these options should take a significant amount of time, based on the skill of the player performing the clerical acts. This type of system would make dying a serious ordeal but not one you can't recover from, and it would pretty much remove the usage of "travel by suicide".
I'm also in favor of removing "bind points" unless it's accompanied by a skill that takes a significant amount of time to train.
XP is directly linked to buying Gametime, and as far as I know, GW does not want to touch anything that you directly payed for. Temporarily, yes (in the case of losing skills if your city can not support them anymore), but not permanent.
I also think it is counterproductive to what PFO has in mind to make an individual death such a hassle. They want people to band together, definately, they want interdependency and consequence of actions, but also on a grander scale then that. I think losing your Settlement is GW's idea of the most serious setback that you can have in PFO and I agree with them that it should be on that level.
Death is already pretty significant because of the 25% items destroyed on death and the remaining 75% that can be looted, but this is in line with the whole "Fight for resources, starve your Enemy" premisse of the game. So harsh though it may be, it does make sense on the grander scale of Economics and the "building" game.
If you make people so scared for an individual death, I think you will scare away a lot of people that are actually needed for what PFO is trying to accomplish. A huge deathpenalty could also lead to less PvP rather then more, apart from the lucky few that apparently never lose, or just don't care.
I also like to think that the tougher you make death in a MMO, the smaller your playerbase will become, untill there is just the single player left (hyperbole, but still). :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not only is 25% of gear destroyed, & all unthreaded gear lootable, but relacements take resources, which take Time to harvest, and crafting those replacements takes more Time. Money does not solve the issue of the time requirements, unless Start towns have infinite supplies to sell. If that is used, the 'naked zergs fail' rule comes into play.
Buy an army several sets of start town gear and stockpile it, then death teleport around, and you get to be completely ineffective against high-Tier formations.
Death teleporting should be something naked individuals do to get back home when they are out of all resources, (and home could be a start town if your settlement kicks you out) and otherwise not a sane choice.
Also, tabletop and casual MMO people are already scared of the harshness of lootable corpses, we really should not make the game less inviting because of armchair theories about it being imbalanced, made before we even start.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It sounds like the gear loss is taking the place of the XP loss I speak of and could be quite painful enough. I still do like the idea of being able to reduce or remove this penalty with "cleric" type skills or spells, but doing so should take some effort and not just the click of a hotbar/instant raise w/ no penalty.
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I'd like to see death penalties beyond just gear loss. I remember in LotRO dying added "dread" to your character which I know lowered your maximum health and I believe also lowered damage and healing output.
Death is LOTRO was a joke like it is in most other MMORPG's out there. I'd like to see death be a real event. You die, you don't immediately leave your body. If you leave your body (depart) without any clerical intervention whatsoever, you permanently lose XP. With clerical intervention you could be raised (should take a lot of skill) or players can use other skills to reduce or remove your XP loss upon departing. Both of these options should take a significant amount of time, based on the skill of the player performing the clerical acts. This type of system would make dying a serious ordeal but not one you can't recover from, and it would pretty much remove the usage of "travel by suicide".
I'm also in favor of removing "bind points" unless it's accompanied by a skill that takes a significant amount of time to train.
This is pretty much EXACTLY how death was handled in an old text-based MUD called Dragon Realms in which I first started online RPGs. With the 25% item destruction in PFO, this may be a bit extreme, but I could see doing a temporary XP loss, although I think a 2 minute temporary stat reduction would be better. I do like the idea that any of this could be mitigated by a cleric, although I wouldn't make the item destruction cleric mitigate-able, as that would change the economy and the items are not your soul. ;-)
@ DeciusBrutus Going by the thread topic "Fast travel by suicide" the discussion got started as a way to stop people from using death as a quick way back from a scouting mission or some such thing. Having most of your items left on your corpse and 25% destroyed is adequate to stop this from being used to bring things back from dangerous areas, etc, but there's still some chance of suicide being used as a travel mechanism back from a scouting mission (if you have all of your equipment threaded, or just don't take much with you in the first place). Steven Cheney stated that GW doesn't want this to become a common activity or strategically important, so they're looking at spawn options and how it will affect this situation. People here were offering some ideas to curtail suicide deaths from being advantageous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What is the expected problem that death penalties are intended to mitigate? Spawn rushing is already a prohibitively expensive tactic.
I just see the suggestion I proposed above as a fun system to mess with the "reality of the game world" according to Pharasma's Mark.
Interestingly I see Camelot Unchained has similar idea for stealth; it's an idea that I would like to see more of in fantasy. There may be important repercussions with the pillars and a fair bit of fiddling with the radius of death - who knows could be an upgrade path!
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@ DeciusBrutus Going by the thread topic "Fast travel by suicide" the discussion got started as a way to stop people from using death as a quick way back from a scouting mission or some such thing. Having most of your items left on your corpse and 25% destroyed is adequate to stop this from being used to bring things back from dangerous areas, etc, but there's still some chance of suicide being used as a travel mechanism back from a scouting mission (if you have all of your equipment threaded, or just don't take much with you in the first place). Steven Cheney stated that GW doesn't want this to become a common activity or strategically important, so they're looking at spawn options and how it will affect this situation. People here were offering some ideas to curtail suicide deaths from being advantageous.
Any solution that involves said scout respawning at a location far from his support and then struggle to get out of hostile territory seems like it would be worse than allowing the defending forces to send him all the way home.
Yes, that's what the discussion is about actually. If you can select your bind point (and not just go to the nearest one), then a scout is forced to struggle out of hostile territory. If you can just select your bind point all the way back in your own settlement, you're home and ready to gear up. Of course with instant communication, the scouts job is done whether or not he makes it back anyway...
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there's going to be some kind of a delay before folks who were killed can return to combat, then they should not be able to do anything else productive during that time either, such as travel from their spawn point back to the battle.
Note, I am not advocating such a delay, merely pointing out something I think would be necessary were such a delay implemented.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Yes, that's what the discussion is about actually. If you can select your bind point (and not just go to the nearest one), then a scout is forced to struggle out of hostile territory. If you can just select your bind point all the way back in your own settlement, you're home and ready to gear up. Of course with instant communication, the scouts job is done whether or not he makes it back anyway...
Alternately, if the scout has to struggle out of his area of operations, it is hard to force him out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Staying in your corpse and getting rezzed/revived on the spot, death should have minimal/no penalties...
Departing your corpse and reviving at a bind/spawn point....death should have pretty serious penalties.
I would go so far as to say that you MUST wait a minimum timer before the player is even allowed to release from thier corpse.... and that once released, there should be some sort of debuff as Andius suggests.
The game should REALLY, REALLY discourage people from using suicide as a measure of convenience.
The kinda zerg tactic where someone gets killed and 30 seconds later with no outside intervention they are back in the fight at full fighting trim is not the sort of PvP (or PvE for that matter) that I'd really like to see.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is pretty much EXACTLY how death was handled in an old text-based MUD called Dragon Realms in which I first started online RPGs. With the 25% item destruction in PFO, this may be a bit extreme, but I could see doing a temporary XP loss, although I think a 2 minute temporary stat reduction would be better. I do like the idea that any of this could be mitigated by a cleric, although I wouldn't make the item destruction cleric mitigate-able, as that would change the economy and the items are not your soul. ;-)I'd like to see death penalties beyond just gear loss. I remember in LotRO dying added "dread" to your character which I know lowered your maximum health and I believe also lowered damage and healing output.
Death is LOTRO was a joke like it is in most other MMORPG's out there. I'd like to see death be a real event. You die, you don't immediately leave your body. If you leave your body (depart) without any clerical intervention whatsoever, you permanently lose XP. With clerical intervention you could be raised (should take a lot of skill) or players can use other skills to reduce or remove your XP loss upon departing. Both of these options should take a significant amount of time, based on the skill of the player performing the clerical acts. This type of system would make dying a serious ordeal but not one you can't recover from, and it would pretty much remove the usage of "travel by suicide".
I'm also in favor of removing "bind points" unless it's accompanied by a skill that takes a significant amount of time to train.
You caught me. Dragon realms is the game that I still go back to as having some of the best MMORPG systems to date. I love the way death was handled there, and they also had open PvP, yet it rarely happened unprovoked. Clerics and paladins had real purpose and could spend a lot of time just raising/rejuving people and building up those skills. The reason I am watching PFO so closely is because it is the closest thing I've seen so far to a graphical Dragon Realms, with numerous improvements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Zerging into combat after death only happens in Alpha because there's no death penalty, and no economy. It won't be the same in EE. We'll start with only the shirts on our backs; and our crafters have a week to train up their crafts and gather enough to gear us for the war of towers. When gear starts going down the gullet of war, replacements will come from the daily node harvest, not poi's. It will be a lean and hungry crowd that see the cataclysm dawn.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Zerging into combat after death only happens in Alpha because there's no death penalty, and no economy.
Death penalties yes. Economy no. Economy won't stop this. I remember in Darkfall if I lost my siege gear I'd gear up in another suit and run straight back into battle.
People stockpile away nice gear just so they can do that in sieges, and if the costs for 1 siege get too high you just switch to throwaway suits.
What you're going to see without death penalties is people gearing up in uber enchanted Tier 3 gear for the first 1-3 deaths and then rushing back in over and over and over in Tier 1 gear after that.
The cost of Tier 1 gear with trash enchants to vets will be inconsequential. Hell they may even be able to thread the whole suit themselves, and throw tier 1 gear at their grunts like it's candy.
Edit: That also depends on the frequency of sieges. In Darkfall every major alliance generally dealt with multiple sieges a week. If sieges are less frequent people will use more suits of T3 per battle.
