Ways for the Alchemist to heal

[dmerceless]

So... one of my players is an Alchemist and he asked me something that I didn't really know how to answer. Let's say someone needs one of his Elixirs of Life but has none in their person and the Alchemist wants to heal that ally. Walking to them, giving them the elixir and them consuming it uses 3 actions (2 from the Alchemist and one from the ally). It seems like the best course of action would be walking to that ally and giving them the Elixir in their mouth... in the middle of a combat... which is really weird, to say the least.

Are we missing something and there is another less silly way of doing that or is that the case, indeed?

[Neume]

It is my view you have hit on the problem with healing in 2ed. In the time it takes for an Alchemist to feed one potion to an ally, the bard can inspired courage the party, heal the ally and give them a 1 minute buff. The cleric, in that same amount of time, has healed the entire party to full.

Healing is not equitable in this version at all. By the changes they've made, I think this is intentional. If you want to heal, play a cleric.

I still highly advocate for a healing bomb for Alchs. #ThereISaidIt

[Krysgg]

A less silly version would be to prepare those elixirs of life with advanced alchemy in the morning and give them out, so that your ally can pull out and use it themself.

I could totally go for a feat that lets alchemists administer liquids as a dart though. (Bomb would be mechanically fine, but I think darts make more sense)

[Neume]

Krysgg wrote:

A less silly version would be to prepare those elixirs of life with advanced alchemy in the morning and give them out, so that your ally can pull out and use it themself.

I could totally go for a feat that lets alchemists administer liquids as a dart though. (Bomb would be mechanically fine, but I think darts make more sense)

Preparing in the morning and handing them out still has the action cost in combat to draw and drink. As far as healers go, Alchemist has the biggest action cost.

Darts are better thematically. Maybe... A DART BOMB!!!

/micdrop

[dmerceless]

Krysgg wrote:

A less silly version would be to prepare those elixirs of life with advanced alchemy in the morning and give them out, so that your ally can pull out and use it themself.

I could totally go for a feat that lets alchemists administer liquids as a dart though. (Bomb would be mechanically fine, but I think darts make more sense)

Oh yeah, that is for sure, and he is doing this, but I'm talking more about an edge situation like "I didn't prepare enough Elixirs with Avanced Alchemy, my ally is dying and I still have some reagents here for a Quick Alchemy".

I'd be all for an option so that Alchemists can have ranged heals that are more action efficient, however... there may be a problem on that:

Let's compare two level 9 characters, an Chirurgeon Alchemist and a Cleric, the Alchemist has 20 Int and the Cleric has 20 Charisma just for Channel Life.

Let's say the Alchemist uses half of his reagents (14/2 = 7) to make Elixirs of Life. With the level 5 Chirugeon feature, they will have 21 Elixirs, with each one healing 7d6 health.

This is a total of 147d6 healing. Average 515 health.

Now the Cleric, he has 6 uses of Channel Life, and let's say he uses both of his 5th level slot to cast Heal as well (which he probably won't).

This is 9d8+5 per Heal, for a total of 72d8+40. Average 364 health.

If the Alchemist's healing is as action-efficient as as the Cleric's, let's say a feat lets you use 2 actions to shoot an elixir-filled dart at an ally up to 30ft away, then he will be... basically straight up better as a healer. And that is not even considering that an Alchemist can give elixirs to people in advance and a Cleric can't "pre-heal" someone.

I don't think Alchemist is an OP healer in their current state, but maybe that could make them be, I don't know. I'd still want a less silly way of giving someone an Elixir though, even if it is just flavor, and it is still melee and costs one action to do + one to move to the target. I can only think of feeding them in their mouth or smashing the potion in their body, and it's hard to say which of those options is weirder, haha.

[Zorae]

Technically Druids are in the same boat with Goodberry.

I would be fine with Alchemists being theoretically better healers than Clerics in this way as 7d6 is less than 9d8+5, so you do less healing in one go. Not to mention that Healing Domain/Healer's Hands would push the Cleric up above the Alchemist for healing (and they could have a staff of heal at that point). And, by doing the three action channel, they do have a potential to do a lot more healing. So I don't think this would make Alchemists strictly better healers than Clerics. Just better than non-invested Clerics (which is to be expected).

I don't think giving them the ability to use their elixirs at range or reducing the number of actions somehow has a risk of making them too OP.

[Krysgg]

To keep the balance of actions the 'shoot dart' action could cost 2. That way its 1 action to draw the potion, and 2 to shoot it as a dart.

[Themetricsystem]

Neume wrote:

Krysgg wrote:

A less silly version would be to prepare those elixirs of life with advanced alchemy in the morning and give them out, so that your ally can pull out and use it themself.

I could totally go for a feat that lets alchemists administer liquids as a dart though. (Bomb would be mechanically fine, but I think darts make more sense)

Preparing in the morning and handing them out still has the action cost in combat to draw and drink. As far as healers go, Alchemist has the biggest action cost.

Darts are better thematically. Maybe... A DART BOMB!!!

/micdrop

A Discovery that lets the Alchemist Prepare and Use 'Mass' Versions of any of their Formulas. 10 ft Dart AoE to deliver the dose, reflex (Harmless) negates.

[nick1wasd]

Yeah, a healer cleric should outclass a Chirurgeon, but if you have an aggro cleric (one that's particularly smite happy), the Chirurgeon should do better as the healer. As the aggro cleric isn't TRYING to be a healer, they can just act as one if the need arises, while the Chirurgeon is TRYING to do the heal thing, just without magic to aid him.

[Neume]

dmerceless wrote:

Krysgg wrote:

A less silly version would be to prepare those elixirs of life with advanced alchemy in the morning and give them out, so that your ally can pull out and use it themself.

I could totally go for a feat that lets alchemists administer liquids as a dart though. (Bomb would be mechanically fine, but I think darts make more sense)

Oh yeah, that is for sure, and he is doing this, but I'm talking more about an edge situation like "I didn't prepare enough Elixirs with Avanced Alchemy, my ally is dying and I still have some reagents here for a Quick Alchemy".

I'd be all for an option so that Alchemists can have ranged heals that are more action efficient, however... there may be a problem on that:

Let's compare two level 9 characters, an Chirurgeon Alchemist and a Cleric, the Alchemist has 20 Int and the Cleric has 20 Charisma just for Channel Life.

Let's say the Alchemist uses half of his reagents (14/2 = 7) to make Elixirs of Life. With the level 5 Chirugeon feature, they will have 21 Elixirs, with each one healing 7d6 health.

This is a total of 147d6 healing. Average 515 health.

Now the Cleric, he has 6 uses of Channel Life, and let's say he uses both of his 5th level slot to cast Heal as well (which he probably won't).

This is 9d8+5 per Heal, for a total of 72d8+40. Average 364 health.

If the Alchemist's healing is as action-efficient as as the Cleric's, let's say a feat lets you use 2 actions to shoot an elixir-filled dart at an ally up to 30ft away, then he will be... basically straight up better as a healer. And that is not even considering that an Alchemist can give elixirs to people in advance and a Cleric can't "pre-heal" someone.

I don't think Alchemist is an OP healer in their current state, but maybe that could make them be, I don't know. I'd still want a less silly way of giving someone an Elixir though, even if it is just flavor, and it is still melee and costs one action to do + one to move to the target. I can only think of feeding them in their...

You compared a spec'd Alchemist to an unspec'd Cleric. Additionally, you ignored the full healing of a 3 action heal. There is no maths anywhere where a fully spec'd Cleric doesn't grossly out heal anyone. Ever.

[dmerceless]

Neume wrote:

You compared a spec'd Alchemist to an unspec'd Cleric. Additionally, you ignored the full healing of a 3 action heal. There is no maths anywhere where a fully spec'd Cleric doesn't grossly out heal anyone. Ever.

Yeah, you're right. As I've said, I was not really sure about that. Now that you and other people pointed those things out, I'm probably going to make a Feat for him to shoot elixirs as darts with his crossbow and see how it goes out.

[citricking]

Also action economy of healing is the most important thing. Every character has access to treat wounds for unlimited out of combat healing, so total healing is pretty meaningless (it's 24 hours * 6 10 minute periods * level * con mod * number of characters).

[Zwordsman]

A large thing to remember about the alchemist elixer's is that.. it has NO static value. ever. it is entirely dice roll.
As far as I remember (relative really) no other healing in the game does not come with a static modifier. usually caster level. Even Treat Wounds interacts with a static modfier and heals a set amount. Battle medic also gives Wis-though in my exprience the folks who want that usually don't have a ton of wis--cause they're non casters. (seriously wish Alch--regardless of specialty- could get INT to medicine, and its feats)

You could take the highest grade Alchemist's elixer and roll and heal as much as a lv 1 elixir. That urneliablity is far worse, in my opinion, than the action economy. Which is also a problem for sure.

Spending 2 actions and relying so heavily on pure RNG is problematic.
I mean yeah. generally the casting modifer isn't ~that~ big. but you can at least be sure of a set amount.

Spending 2 actions and rolling horribly and healing 1-6 instead of far more.. is quite painful. That is a bit more of a perception issue addmitidly.

------------

I am hoping and rather assume, that the final product will have a sipping jacket.
and if we're lucky. Alchemist specific Injection Spear. (not syrign spear)

[Sebastian Hirsch]

I realize that this might sound silly, but I would really like the option of alchemists being able to throw healing potions on their allies, kinda like this:

Found this picture ages ago
--

Another thematic option might be to allow alchemists to use their healing options as a way to give players a certain amount of temporary HP.

"Dr. Lichtenstein's Amazingly Fortification Elixier" or something could evoke the right flavor.

Somewhat connected to that, letting alchemists convert overhealing into temp HP might also give them a unique healing option in combat.

[Nettah]

I'm a bit confused whether you are asking if you can just feed it to an ally or not? Or whether you just find it silly that you can. But according to the rules you can feed any potions to a willing target (or unwilling if they can't move).

Balance wise I can see the reason for ranged healing, but throwing darts with potion etc just seems super weird to me.

[Doktor Weasel]

I really like the idea of administering elixirs with a hypodermic needle, it's a bit less awkward than running up and shoving it down someone's throat, and is very thematic for the alchemist (I think the old alchemist iconic had a dagger/hypodermic syringe combo weapon). You whip it up with quick alchemy with one action and then jab and inject them with a second action. A hypo-dart for range as suggested is also a nice option. I wouldn't use the Dart from the weapon chart, that's more the size of a fat arrow and would do damage as well as healing, but maybe a blowgun dart or something, those things are tiny. Also, what about a new healing bomb item? It releases a cloud of healing gas in a five foot radius, so you can get group healing. It'll probably do less healing per person than an equivalent level healing elixir, to compensate for being able to heal multiple people at once. A healing bomb might be a bit of a thematic stretch, but not too bad.

[Doktor Weasel]

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Another thematic option might be to allow alchemists to use their healing options as a way to give players a certain amount of temporary HP.

"Dr. Lichtenstein's Amazingly Fortification Elixier" or something could evoke the right flavor.

Somewhat connected to that, letting alchemists convert overhealing into temp HP might also give them a unique healing option in combat.

You can currently give Temp HP with the Juggernaut Mutagen. Of course, it's a mutagen, so it's got more restrictions.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

I realize that this might sound silly, but I would really like the option of alchemists being able to throw healing potions on their allies

Honestly, I really want alchemical familiars to get a modification of the deliver touch spell option for delivering elixirs for exactly this reason. It would let them buff/heal at range, gives the alchemist familiar a little more to do, and is just plain cool.

[dmerceless]

This is what I ended up with:

Syringe Dart, Alchemist Feat 1

When you craft an Elixir or Mutagen using Advanced Alchemy or Quick Alchemy, you can craft that item as a syringe dart. This dart can be shot from 30 feet away at a willing creature (no check required) with a blowgun or any type of crossbow, being loaded normally as ammunition. The target is then affected by the Elixir or Mutagen.

You can still apply the syringe manually at someone to affect them, but if you do, it has its onset time increased by 1 round.

[Zwordsman]

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

I realize that this might sound silly, but I would really like the option of alchemists being able to throw healing potions on their allies, kinda like this:

Found this picture ages ago
--

Final fantasy d20 has a similar ability with chemist. though not instant use on throw

but i've played home games with that allowance..

Honestly it isn't terrible at all IMO. More so if it is an alchemist only ability.

Really just make a neat feat. Ability to throw alchemical items and take effect on target, range as per bomb throwing likely for ease

[Joey Cote]

I just like the idea of the elixirs having a bigger die to make up for the problems with using them over a heal spell. Probably a d10 but I could see d12s as well.

[Themetricsystem]

Joey Cote wrote:

I just like the idea of the elixirs having a bigger die to make up for the problems with using them over a heal spell. Probably a d10 but I could see d12s as well.

I for one would love to see an Uncommon Healing Exilir from minor, moderate, and major varieties.

Standard fare for usage, weight etc but instead heals 1d20, 2d20, 3d20.

Risky healing potions.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

Themetricsystem wrote:

Joey Cote wrote:

I just like the idea of the elixirs having a bigger die to make up for the problems with using them over a heal spell. Probably a d10 but I could see d12s as well.

I for one would love to see an Uncommon Healing Exilir from minor, moderate, and major varieties.

Standard fare for usage, weight etc but instead heals 1d20, 2d20, 3d20.

Risky healing potions.

Interesting idea, even if they are not replacing the normal healing potions players might appreciate having the alternative.

[shroudb]

dmerceless wrote:

Krysgg wrote:

A less silly version would be to prepare those elixirs of life with advanced alchemy in the morning and give them out, so that your ally can pull out and use it themself.

I could totally go for a feat that lets alchemists administer liquids as a dart though. (Bomb would be mechanically fine, but I think darts make more sense)

Oh yeah, that is for sure, and he is doing this, but I'm talking more about an edge situation like "I didn't prepare enough Elixirs with Avanced Alchemy, my ally is dying and I still have some reagents here for a Quick Alchemy".

I'd be all for an option so that Alchemists can have ranged heals that are more action efficient, however... there may be a problem on that:

Let's compare two level 9 characters, an Chirurgeon Alchemist and a Cleric, the Alchemist has 20 Int and the Cleric has 20 Charisma just for Channel Life.

Let's say the Alchemist uses half of his reagents (14/2 = 7) to make Elixirs of Life. With the level 5 Chirugeon feature, they will have 21 Elixirs, with each one healing 7d6 health.

This is a total of 147d6 healing. Average 515 health.

Now the Cleric, he has 6 uses of Channel Life, and let's say he uses both of his 5th level slot to cast Heal as well (which he probably won't).

This is 9d8+5 per Heal, for a total of 72d8+40. Average 364 health.

If the Alchemist's healing is as action-efficient as as the Cleric's, let's say a feat lets you use 2 actions to shoot an elixir-filled dart at an ally up to 30ft away, then he will be... basically straight up better as a healer. And that is not even considering that an Alchemist can give elixirs to people in advance and a Cleric can't "pre-heal" someone.

I don't think Alchemist is an OP healer in their current state, but maybe that could make them be, I don't know. I'd still want a less silly way of giving someone an Elixir though, even if it is just flavor, and it is still melee and costs one action to do + one to move to the target. I can only think of feeding them in their...

your numbers are off.

to start, for either of them to be having a 20 mod, they need level 10, not 9.

at level 10, the alchemist has 15 reousrces, and indeed your numbers for him are correct (7*3*7d6(3.5)= 514,5).

let's be generous and even say that he uses another resource for "burst" maximized healing, for another 7*6= 42 healing.

so about 556 healing for 8/15 resources.

a cleric build for healing would be healing around 11d8+11 with each heal though. That's 5th level heal (9d8), +4 (18-19 wisdom in order to have 20 cha), +2d8 healing hands, +5 improved communal, +2 staff of healing.

he'll also have another free 3rd+2nd heal from the staff for another 7d8+9+5d8+8 = 12d8+17

he'll also have another 3 free channels from his domain.

so, our heal cleric has, just with his staff and his free channels:
100d8+105= 555

he still has ALL his spells, 3 of each level until 5th level, + better martial proficiencies if he needs to, +at will cantrips.

so:
pros of cleric:
extremely faster healing (60,5 healing per 2 actions vs 24,5 per 2 actions, options to even heal with 1 action for just 9 hp less)
ranged healing if needed
aoe healing if needed
actually heals about the same/more:
555vs556 for just half resources vs free channels
max healing for cleric is: another 105d8+135 for 607,5+555= 1162,5
max healing for alchemist is 15*3*7d6= 1102.5

you'll have to reach 12th level, that the cleric gains "just" 55d8+55 and another 3d8+8+26 from the staff for a total of 1512,5 vs the 17*3*10d6 = 1785 for the alchemist to start edging ahead (he'll still drop behind at exactly the next level, but hey, at some point he was ahead!)

[rayous brightblade]

dmerceless wrote:

Walking to them, giving them the elixir and them consuming it uses 3 actions (2 from the Alchemist and one from the ally).

Feeding a willing target is an operate action, no need to give to them and them to take an action. After 16th level (13 for chirgeons) they could move up, quick alchemy, and feed for maximized elixers. This keeps them close to pure casters for single target healing.

[shroudb]

rayous brightblade wrote:

dmerceless wrote:

Walking to them, giving them the elixir and them consuming it uses 3 actions (2 from the Alchemist and one from the ally).

Feeding a willing target is an operate action, no need to give to them and them to take an action. After 16th level (13 for chirgeons) they could move up, quick alchemy, and feed for maximized elixers. This keeps them close to pure casters for single target healing.

not really, that's 3 actions (1 for quick, 1 for movement, 1 for feeding) and double the resources for a burst healing.

at 13 you'll be using level 12 elixirs, so 10d6, or 60hp.

at 13, a healer cleric can heal with a single channel 15d8+15 so about 83 hp. And he can either move and heal, or simply heal from range if he needs to.

Just from channel and powers, he'll have at least 7 such channels, which equals to about 9.5 or so ingredients of the alchemist who has about 18 max at that level.

so, just the channels equal more than half the resources of the alchemist, with better usability and better burst healing and aoe healing, and he still has all his spells and better martial proficiencies to boot.

i would hardly call that "keep even" with.