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So I'm getting worried about campaign setting books for 2e because I realized they will most likely be like Starfinder's campaign setting books.
See, one of the things I use campaign setting books for is getting inspiration for "What would be level appropriate adventure for this party in this location", stuff like "Oh hey, there is level 13 arcane trickster in Magnimar's prison" or "Oh hey Kwanlai is ruled by level 14 cleric". Latter is even more important because knowing how powerful(and what kind of abilities) ruler of the nation have allows me to know how powerful threats they can answer to and what kind of power level is too high for them to handle by themselves. So if I made Kwanlai campaign where players work for Lady Sutarai-Gongen (CG female half-celestial tengu cleric 14 of Hei Feng), I would know that whatever power is BBEG of the campaign, it has to be stronger than CR 15 if I want it to be able to directly threaten ruler on its own.
Now in starfinder, the NPCs in campaign setting book read in format "[alignmnent] [gender] [race] [class]". Now let's say I want to use Apostae's Crater Town's elder Kavok (NE male half-orc technomancer) as a villain in adventure for whatever reason. Because I don't know what level he is, I don't know what kind of magic he has access to, so I have to decide his level and as results abilities on my own. I could just assume "he is two level higher than PCs at point they encounter him", but as I said before, I prefer to select things from campaign setting books to use in my campaigns based on whether threat level is appropriate for the party's current level. In which point I might as well just create my own original villain instead of looking campaign setting book gazetteers for inspiration.
Sooo yeah, I'm basically worried if we get Southern Garund/Casmaron/etc campaign setting book in 2e, it will just read "Ruler N Human Wizard" and not really give me any direction on the character's abilities. That also makes it hard to import 2e campaign setting book stuff into 1e since either way I have to decide the NPC's power level on my own.
(note 1: granted, I do think its okay to leave Evil ruler npc's power level cryptic because rulers of evil nations make for good final bosses so its nice to be able to decide whether you want campaign to end at 15th or 20th level, but I don't really find it useful at other situations. Like, it really doesn't inspire me at all to not know good aligned ruler's or evil crime lord's abilities
note 2: I'm okay with not knowing how high level owner of the tavern is or shopkeepers or other establishment/business owners, as I said my main problem is mostly with villain NPCs, especially casters.)
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So I'm getting worried about campaign setting books for 2e because I realized they will most likely be like Starfinder's campaign setting books.
... Starfinder doesn't have a Campaign Setting line yet...
We've gotten the hardcover Pact Worlds... which is one book.
As for not including levels, I don't really see that as an issue, more of a plot opening and freedom there. They have their class listed, that's all the direction you need really. If they had their level listed you'd still have to build their stat block from scratch anyway.
So if I made Kwanlai campaign where players work for Lady Sutarai-Gongen (CG female half-celestial tengu cleric 14 of Hei Feng), I would know that whatever power is BBEG of the campaign, it has to be stronger than CR 15 if I want it to be able to directly threaten ruler on its own.
1) Very likely, yes. 2) Not that much of an issue unless the BBEG is the only adversary in the campaign.
If you want the NPC villain to be level 15 you make him level 15, then the ruler could be level 11 so the villain is a threat.
It's purposefully open ended so you can have adventures in various places of the campaign setting at any level.
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For NPC I don't think anything past a commoner is really necessary. (and the commoner is tentative I just really like the old commoner flaws.) I feel like for everything else you just make them classed. maybe classed with low stats or a lower level.
I don't know the fighter for example I feel like your basic soldier can be represented just as well by a low level fighter with low stats. Commoner has a place as basically human if they were by hit die in my mind.
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I would actually prefer if they let the npcs in the campaign setting main book as rules-light as possible.
Gives me more room to customize the adventures to my group. It also adds the benefit of better compactibility with 1e and 5e.
I am not really sold in the 2e system yet, but its very likely that I'll buy an updated campaign setting.
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So I'm getting worried about campaign setting books for 2e because I realized they will most likely be like Starfinder's campaign setting books.... Starfinder doesn't have a Campaign Setting line yet...
We've gotten the hardcover Pact Worlds... which is one book.
As for not including levels, I don't really see that as an issue, more of a plot opening and freedom there. They have their class listed, that's all the direction you need really. If they had their level listed you'd still have to build their stat block from scratch anyway.
So if I made Kwanlai campaign where players work for Lady Sutarai-Gongen (CG female half-celestial tengu cleric 14 of Hei Feng), I would know that whatever power is BBEG of the campaign, it has to be stronger than CR 15 if I want it to be able to directly threaten ruler on its own.1) Very likely, yes. 2) Not that much of an issue unless the BBEG is the only adversary in the campaign.
Pact Worlds book uses same format as setting articles in AP volumes <_< That is really just nitpicking.
Also seriously, everyone replying with "make npcs the level you want" just kinda miss the part where I said "I look campaign setting books for INSPIRATION" I don't mind building statblocks from scratch, but I get more inspired when I think what "level 14 cleric can do" that when I think what "a cleric can do"
Something to consider is that StarFinder is really still just starting and fleshing out their universe. I suspect that they intentionally left it more generic as they are trying to get a basic map of the campaign area out there to inspire people to play in it, but not wanting to lay down too much concrete just yet, giving AP authors some flexibility to write adventures that can fit in without contradictions. If an individual GM writes an adventure and makes an NPC either higher or lower than an eventual 'cannon' definition of the PC it can simply either be explained by having gained experience or shifted... ignored... or hand waved. As any home campaign can drift from the Cannon for any number of reasons.
I'm going to suspect that with Golarian already having been really highly defined already, I could imagine that levels for the NPCs will likely be included as they have in the past, since each thing including them will be for a closer look at a particular area.
But also of note, in some cases the NPCs won't be classed/leveled people, they may be human monsters with particular abilities defined. That will likely be the most signifigant change. [some NPCs being monsters of a certain level, rather than class members of a particular level]
So and so, is a 5th level blacksmith, 50hp, capable of crafting a master quality sword in a weeks time(as a reward), if you rescue his son who was captured by the evil priestess Settina whom plans to sacrifice him on the new moon.
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So I'm getting worried about campaign setting books for 2e because I realized they will most likely be like Starfinder's campaign setting books.... Starfinder doesn't have a Campaign Setting line yet...
We've gotten the hardcover Pact Worlds... which is one book.
As for not including levels, I don't really see that as an issue, more of a plot opening and freedom there. They have their class listed, that's all the direction you need really. If they had their level listed you'd still have to build their stat block from scratch anyway.
So if I made Kwanlai campaign where players work for Lady Sutarai-Gongen (CG female half-celestial tengu cleric 14 of Hei Feng), I would know that whatever power is BBEG of the campaign, it has to be stronger than CR 15 if I want it to be able to directly threaten ruler on its own.1) Very likely, yes. 2) Not that much of an issue unless the BBEG is the only adversary in the campaign.
Pact Worlds book uses same format as setting articles in AP volumes <_< That is really just nitpicking.
Also seriously, everyone replying with "make npcs the level you want" just kinda miss the part where I said "I look campaign setting books for INSPIRATION" I don't mind building statblocks from scratch, but I get more inspired when I think what "level 14 cleric can do" that when I think what "a cleric can do"
... you explicitly said “campaign setting books”.
As for Level inspiring you more than anything else *shrugs* I’d just look at whatever said NPC was in charge of and go from there.
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So I'm getting worried about campaign setting books for 2e because I realized they will most likely be like Starfinder's campaign setting books.... Starfinder doesn't have a Campaign Setting line yet...
We've gotten the hardcover Pact Worlds... which is one book.
As for not including levels, I don't really see that as an issue, more of a plot opening and freedom there. They have their class listed, that's all the direction you need really. If they had their level listed you'd still have to build their stat block from scratch anyway.
So if I made Kwanlai campaign where players work for Lady Sutarai-Gongen (CG female half-celestial tengu cleric 14 of Hei Feng), I would know that whatever power is BBEG of the campaign, it has to be stronger than CR 15 if I want it to be able to directly threaten ruler on its own.1) Very likely, yes. 2) Not that much of an issue unless the BBEG is the only adversary in the campaign.
Pact Worlds book uses same format as setting articles in AP volumes <_< That is really just nitpicking.
Also seriously, everyone replying with "make npcs the level you want" just kinda miss the part where I said "I look campaign setting books for INSPIRATION" I don't mind building statblocks from scratch, but I get more inspired when I think what "level 14 cleric can do" that when I think what "a cleric can do"
... you explicitly said “campaign setting books”.
As for Level inspiring you more than anything else *shrugs* I’d just look at whatever said NPC was in charge of and go from there.
Pact World IS a campaign setting book, you are nitpicking because I never said "campaign setting line book" <_<
But yeah, as I said, if 2e books follow same format as Starfinder, I don't really get inspired by NPCs in Absalom Station article for example. Only exception I can think of is pretty much the crime family of clones since presumably they could fulfill any possible roles iirc so individual member's classes and abilities don't matter that much since the concept of the npc itself is inspiring.
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NO, just no... Sorry either have creation rules or don't bother, this 'just plain make stuff up' bugs the hell put of me, monsters having stuff for no reason? No. If you can't give a reasonable explanation as to why and how, laid out in clear rules, don't do it (and to fit an arbitrary challenge chart is not a good reason)But also of note, in some cases the NPCs won't be classed/leveled people, they may be human monsters with particular abilities defined. That will likely be the most signifigant change. [some NPCs being monsters of a certain level, rather than class members of a particular level]
So and so, is a 5th level blacksmith, 50hp, capable of crafting a master quality sword in a weeks time(as a reward), if you rescue his son who was captured by the evil priestess Settina whom plans to sacrifice him on the new moon.
You mean like 90% of natural armour values ever? Or monster special abilities? Or the number of hit dice chosen?
PF1, 3.5, 5E, others, they all fundamentally operate on pulling numbers out of nowhere for monster design, bad monster design systems like PF1E (as much as I loved the game its monster building guidelines were attrocious) just had extra baggage that meant increasing accuracy by upping HD gave you baggage of hp, save, skills, feats, or you'd have to buff their attacking attribute past what made sense for the creature. It was not a good system.
NPC design is often stricter, and if you want to use PC rules for them in 2E nothing stops you, it will be interesting how often they use PC rules for NPCs in published 2E content.
I like having ready made stats in books like the NPC Codex, Villain Codex and Monster Codex. I liked when they were included in Campaign Setting books such as the Revisited and Unleashed lines, but Paizo seems to have moved away from that in favor of the Codex books.