So Treat Wounds was (just) added for a quick downtime heal mechanic, but I'm very much not a fan of "The DC is the medium DC for your level" awkward non-world scaling you specifically said in the description before the "Level - DC" chart was exactly the wrong way to use those DC's. A DC it is possible to get worse at over time if you fail to invest in your medicine skill, Wis, and +Item bonus...
How about instead of including the small chance you critically fail and suddenly can't use this option for the rest of the whole day (a single bad die roll can now dramatically affect a party's total available healing for the entire day) Why not just let it be automatic and scale the HP/level (which goes up on critical success) scale with just Trained (1x), Expert(2x), Master(3x), and Legendary (4-5x)
Lady Melo wrote: So Treat Wounds was (just) added for a quick downtime heal mechanic, but I'm very much not a fan of "The DC is the medium DC for your level" awkward non-world scaling you specifically said in the description before the "Level - DC" chart was exactly the wrong way to use those DC's. A DC it is possible to get worse at over time if you fail to invest in your medicine skill, Wis, and +Item bonus...
How about instead of including the small chance you critically fail and suddenly can't use this option for the rest of the whole day (a single bad die roll can now dramatically affect a party's total available healing for the entire day) Why not just let it be automatic and scale the HP/level (which goes up on critical success) scale with just Trained (1x), Expert(2x), Master(3x), and Legendary (4-5x)
from level 4 till level 20, the DC for medium difficulty raises by 1 each level apart from 4 occasions, 2 of which are when/right after you get ability bumps.
so, in reality, the check:DC remains static even with 0 investment afterwards.
any sort of investment just makes it easier and easier to accomplish.
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The medium DC goes up by 2 at 4→5, 6→7, 12→13, 15→16, While not much, It would be possible to still lose effectiveness over time, if 1 of your 2 left behind abilities are Wisdom, and you don't advance beyond trained, that might sound extreme... but isn't the whole point of leveling up and increase the number, to get better at a task?
If we are just magically hand waving away all the times the number goes up by auto-scaling the DC's (not encountering new challenges) why are the numbers increasing in the first place? Shouldn't we just not increase +/level? I accepted Pathfinder's feel was to make characters ever increasingly more powerful as they advance, in to the supernatural and demigod range, but it can't just be some of the time.
You could make an argument the wounds are more complex from more complex enemies (a bit of a stretch, but conceivable), except that fails constantly when treating wounds cause by anything other then "Monster/Environment level exactly equals PC level" Treating the damage form a 30 ft fall shouldn't go up over time.
Lady Melo wrote: The medium DC goes up by 2 at 4→5, 6→7, 12→13, 15→16, While not much, It would be possible to still lose effectiveness over time, if 1 of your 2 left behind abilities are Wisdom, and you don't advance beyond trained, that might sound extreme... but isn't the whole point of leveling up and increase the number, to get better at a task?
If we are just magically hand waving away all the times the number goes up by auto-scaling the DC's (not encountering new challenges) why are the numbers increasing in the first place? Shouldn't we just not increase +/level? I accepted Pathfinder's feel was to make characters ever increasingly more powerful as they advance, in to the supernatural and demigod range, but it can't just be some of the time.
You could make an argument the wounds are more complex from more complex enemies (a bit of a stretch, but conceivable), except that fails constantly when treating wounds cause by anything other then "Monster/Environment level exactly equals PC level" Treating the damage form a 30 ft fall shouldn't go up over time.
simultaneously, your actual healing DOES become multiplicative better though.
so the increased DC make sense.
when you were healing 3 hp before, in the future you may heal 30. So, it's normal to be harder to heal 30.
I would certainly allow someone to drop their "effctive level" while healing, lowering the DC and the level used in multiplications.
that's the freedom given by "DCs by level" chart.
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shroudb wrote:
simultaneously, your actual healing DOES become multiplicative better though.
so the increased DC make sense.
when you were healing 3 hp before, in the future you may heal 30. So, it's normal to be harder to heal 30.
I would certainly allow someone to drop their "effctive level" while healing, lowering the DC and the level used in multiplications.
that's the freedom given by "DCs by level" chart.
I do believe in that case there is point at mid to high levels that you can except a chunk lower DC and almost guarantee the triple healing success for a larger result, getting a larger amount of HP in return.
Also in the case when you could have succeed on a lower DC for some healing (possibly being all that was required), but went to high and failed or "Can't repeat the check for 24 hours", what happened here? Where you too ambitious in your healing attempt that you totally fudged up healing one member's most basic wound that you couldn't have conceivably failed to treat? Especially because the entire party would become bolstered against any further attempts.
If we were going to roll, I'd rather abandon the normal tier's of success, and just use a result chart, DC 15 to pass, with an extra (die or flat value)+con for every +X amount above the DC, with +1/level (and all other goodies tacked on) it should be possible to curve the Results to Expected amount heals. Sure the results due to the d20 would end up a bit swingy, but I don't even think that matters, the Treat wounds action can be repeated every 10 minutes, with a chance of bolstering for a day or healing triple anyway.
Treat Wounds is not there to be as effective as a full blown Cleric. The medium DC is probably a good target considering that the only way to critically fail the roll is to nat 1 so long as you invest in it. Also consider the circumstances it will most heavily be rolled in: a party without a Cleric.
Treat Wounds is designed to enable a party to not have a cleric, which means more than one person takes it. If one person critically fails you have a backup, if the second fails, unless you are on a time-crunch you have, or should have, potions, elixirs, a wand, or resting. Yes, resting isn't always available, but a 5% chance of failure is more than fair.
It gives you between encounter healing, at the cost of changing the way you build a character. Not a bad trade all things considered.
The scaling DC means that the DC for a 20th level healer to treat a 1st level patient is higher than for a 1st level healer to treat a 20th level patient. That makes absolutely no sense.
Syndrous wrote: Treat Wounds is not there to be as effective as a full blown Cleric. Between encounters it’s arguably more effective than a full-blown Cleric, u less that full-Blown Cleric has trained Medicine, in which case I guess he’ll be better by dint of a high Wisdom score. Short of rolling a crit fail, it’s infinite healing between encounters. Healer’s Tools aren’t consumable, so even that is a one-time purchase. I’m certainly less concerned about the lack of wands of Cure Light Wounds.
Luke Styer wrote: The scaling DC means that the DC for a 20th level healer to treat a 1st level patient is higher than for a 1st level healer to treat a 20th level patient. That makes absolutely no sense. The nature of the ability also scales the damage you heal, assuming the wounds from higher level creatures will be more severe.
That's why it's not static, it makes really good sense.
Person healed con mod * healers level. At 20th level that is most likely going to be 80 HP on Frontliners, or more. 240 on a critical success, which is actually the hard part. At level 20, for a character that invests your looking at +32 to the check, which means you crit on a 14 or higher with a 5% critical failure rate. That's a 30% critical success vs 5% critical failure rate.
Lady Melo wrote: Especially because the entire party would become bolstered against any further attempts. Just to be clear, on a crit fail it only bolsters against your Treat Wounds, not anyone else's.
Luke Styer wrote: The scaling DC means that the DC for a 20th level healer to treat a 1st level patient is higher than for a 1st level healer to treat a 20th level patient. That makes absolutely no sense. the level 1 healer would heal a level 20 character with a +4 con mod (which everyone will have by then) for a whooping 4 hp.
the level 20 healer will heal the same character for 80 hp.
it makes sense that healing for 80 is tougher* than healing for 4.
(it's only tougher if you don't invest anything at all in either wisdom or the skill, else it's easier for the level 20 to heal compared to a level1)
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shroudb wrote: the level 1 healer would heal a level 20 character with a +4 con mod (which everyone will have by then) for a whooping 4 hp.
the level 20 healer will heal the same character for 80 hp.
it makes sense that healing for 80 is tougher* than healing for 4.
But the level 20 healer won’t heal the level 1 patient for 80 hp because the level 1 character won’t have 80 hp to “heal into.” Scaling the DC on the basis of the healer’s level rather than the patient’s is counter-intuitive.
Quote: (it's only tougher if you don't invest anything at all in either wisdom or the skill, else it's easier for the level 20 to heal compared to a level1) If the DC means anything, it’s absolutley “tougher” at level 20; the level 20 healer is simply more likely to succeed despite the increased difficulty.
Luke Styer wrote: shroudb wrote: the level 1 healer would heal a level 20 character with a +4 con mod (which everyone will have by then) for a whooping 4 hp.
the level 20 healer will heal the same character for 80 hp.
it makes sense that healing for 80 is tougher* than healing for 4.
But the level 20 healer won’t heal the level 1 patient for 80 hp because the level 1 character won’t have 80 hp to “heal into.” Scaling the DC on the basis of the healer’s level rather than the patient’s is counter-intuitive.
Quote: (it's only tougher if you don't invest anything at all in either wisdom or the skill, else it's easier for the level 20 to heal compared to a level1) If the DC means anything, it’s absolutley “tougher” at level 20; the level 20 healer is simply more likely to succeed despite the increased difficulty. how may times you'll have a level 20 healing a level 1?
that's not an issue imo, and (as i staed before) you can easily houserule to drop your "effective level" for less heal but lower DC vs such tiny cornercases.
it being easier/harder was based around chance of success.
if we go strictly by DC, yes, it's harder for a high level, but he also heals a truckload more.
I like it that it scales off the healer and not the patient, else we would have level 1 healers in villages healing for 80 hp the traveling adventurers. And that would make absolutely no sense.
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shroudb wrote: how may times you'll have a level 20 healing a level 1? The specific levels are extreme, but the point is that healers and patients won’t necessarilt be of the same level.
Quote: you can easily houserule to drop your "effective level" for less heal but lower DC vs such tiny cornercases. Houseruling defeats the purpose of a playtest.
Quote: I like it that it scales off the healer and not the patient, else we would have level 1 healers in villages healing for 80 hp the traveling adventurers. And that would make absolutely no sense. I don’t see why the DC and the yield need to both scale on the patient or the healer.
Note, though, that in your better villages that would be a level 3 healer because Assurance (Medicine) geberates a success at Treat Wounds at level 3, but not at level 1, 2, or 4.
Luke Styer wrote:
I don’t see why the DC and the yield need to both scale on the patient or the healer.
so, in your opinion you think that treat wounds shouldn't scale at all?
i mean, if it doesnt scale off the healer, nor off the recipient, then what does it scales to?
shroudb wrote: so, in your opinion you think that treat wounds shouldn't scale at all? That’s not what I said.
Quote: i mean, if it doesnt scale off the healer, nor off the recipient, then what does it scales to? My preference would be DC scaling on the level of the patient and yield scaling on the level of the healer.
Though if both are to be linked to the same level, I’d prefer that both scaled to the level of the patient. Since hit points are an abstraction in the first place I don’t have any problem with a low level healer generating big numbers on a high level patient, assuming the low level healer could even meet the DC for a high level patient.
The DC scales on level because level is used as a modifier to multiply natural healing. This ability is letting you increase natural healing. A level 20 healer means that you multiply natural healing by 20, thus the DC is based on being level 20.
Syndrous wrote: The DC scales on level because level is used as a modifier to multiply natural healing. This ability is letting you increase natural healing. A level 20 healer means that you multiply natural healing by 20, thus the DC is based on being level 20.
But are you? If a powerful slash does 16 points of damage. You have a character at HP:4/20 and another at HP:204/20 which one is actually hurt more, is the slash wound identical, or would the higher level person be hurt less, and should have a much more treatable wound?
Also the question still stands what happened is i roll enough to "increase heal factor by 10" as you say but my DC implied i needed to "Increase heal factor by 15" was I simply too ambitious and suddenly failed to do any healing? possibly including me failing to heal a lower level target with a minor wound as part of my 6 (also includes a high level target with a nasty wound, just so DC lowering wouldn't make sense), something i might have treat many levels ago even though my modifier is now 10+ points higher?
I don't think i really like the new treat wounds. For starters, the DC is a problem, as mentioned here. If you can successfully treat 3 hp of wounds on a buddy at level 3, it shouldn't be HARDER to treat 3 hp of wounds on that same buddy at level 12. Currently, that appears to be the case.
More importantly, I don't like the unlimited nature of it. Unless you are at risk of critical failures, then it is unlimited healing, with just the (unlimited use) healer's tools and time as the "resource". That is far too unlimited, and frankly, really breaks disbelief. I would much rather the mundane healing be a representation of 'patching you up' to get you moving again, but not something that can get you to full strength. I would personally love the new wounded mechanic to be reversed - and it be something that you GAIN when you receive mundane healing. The 'patch you up' mechanic would get you some hit points, at the expense of some effectiveness, and would result in magical healing still being better than mundane.
Perhaps, make the Critical Success provide the same amount of healing, WITHOUT adding to the wounded condition.
A static DC requires a massively reduced amount of healing to remain balanced.
Remember, we are talking about a core rulebook ability. It can be home-brewed however we like, what is being discussed now is the no-nonsense RAW approach.
Personally, I'll be removing wounded from the being raised from dying and moving it to any time you have your wounds treated. Wounded 1 takes 1 additional point of damage, 2 takes 2 so forth. Sleeping 8 hours reduces wounded by 1, having First Aid while you rest a full day fully removes the wounded condition.
Mundane healing should be in no way comparable to magical healing. Level 20 channel rolls 20d6 or something like that. Level 20 treat Wounds has a 30% chance of restoring 240 hp, effectively doubling the best magical healing available.
What they gave us is a decent compromise so that a cleric is not a mandatatory party member in the base rules. Anything else should be homebrew.
Something worth noting, the update mentions you might use different DCs for certain conditions. The examples given were increases for cursed wounds or inimical conditions but there's no reason not to take that and lower the DC if it was light wounds or a weaker character you're healing. It only makes sense for the DC to be representative of the difficulty of the task like most other DCs here.
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Edge93 wrote: Something worth noting, the update mentions you might use different DCs for certain conditions. The examples given were increases for cursed wounds or inimical conditions but there's no reason not to take that and lower the DC if it was light wounds or a weaker character you're healing. It only makes sense for the DC to be representative of the difficulty of the task like most other DCs here. I'm not a fan of paying for a 'rulebook' that just says 'do what you want'.
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I'd just say that the target DC is based on the patient, not the doctor. As for a cost to make it slightly less unlimited, just give healers kits a number of charges before they run out of supplies, like in PF1. It would still be cheap and most of the cost would be time spend, but not actually free.
Still, I'm very happy to have the new option. I think fixes far more problems than it causes.
CraziFuzzy wrote: Edge93 wrote: Something worth noting, the update mentions you might use different DCs for certain conditions. The examples given were increases for cursed wounds or inimical conditions but there's no reason not to take that and lower the DC if it was light wounds or a weaker character you're healing. It only makes sense for the DC to be representative of the difficulty of the task like most other DCs here. I'm not a fan of paying for a 'rulebook' that just says 'do what you want'. It says a lot more than just do what you want. It gives you the specifics for the baseline/standard but is smart enough to recognize that there are exceptions and alterations and that with a game as open as Pathfinder you ant just give a specific number for every specific possibility so instead it gives solid guidelines for when alterations are needed and trusts GMs to know where to use them.
Syndrous wrote: Mundane healing should be in no way comparable to magical healing. Level 20 channel rolls 20d6 or something like that. Level 20 treat Wounds has a 30% chance of restoring 240 hp, effectively doubling the best magical healing available. I feel like that's more an indictment on the inefficient and often insufficient restoration amount of magical healing.
Another item to factor in is high level alchemists with the Perfect Medicine feat. Alchemists are hard to play for a good chunk of the game, but once they get that, I'm pretty sure it makes them the best HP healers in the game.
Of course, alchemists can't raise the dead unless they reach level 20 and take Philosopher's Stone, and then only once each month.
Sanmei wrote: Syndrous wrote: Mundane healing should be in no way comparable to magical healing. Level 20 channel rolls 20d6 or something like that. Level 20 treat Wounds has a 30% chance of restoring 240 hp, effectively doubling the best magical healing available. I feel like that's more an indictment on the inefficient and often insufficient restoration amount of magical healing.
Another item to factor in is high level alchemists with the Perfect Medicine feat. Alchemists are hard to play for a good chunk of the game, but once they get that, I'm pretty sure it makes them the best HP healers in the game.
Of course, alchemists can't raise the dead unless they reach level 20 and take Philosopher's Stone, and then only once each month. Not sure where you're getting 240 HP but I'm curious. I'm going to assume the 30% you cite isn't the theoretical crit chance for a Legendary rank maxed out Medicine user? Even though that seems like a ridiculously high crit chance I'll go with it. Cure wounds heals Con Mod (minimum 1) times level. A crit heals an additional 3x level (important to note it doesn't triple the healing, it adds triple your level. There's a big difference depending on your patient's Con mod).
This gives a Crit a minimum of 80 HP (if they have a Con mod of 0 or 1), a likely value of 120 or 140 (+3 or +4 Con mod) and a MAX of 180 (+6 Con mod, requires maxing the stat and putting your +2 magic item towards it.). None of that reaches 240 and all of that is crits which again I feel like 30% crit isn't happening but I'd be happy to see the math that gets it if you're sure. Non-crits drop all of the aforementioned values by 60, giving likely values of 60-80 and max of 120 over 10 minutes of healing while a Heal spell at top level averages about 93 (assuming you don't have the Healing Domain power added on) for 1 action.
And it's worth mentioning that Treat Wounds doesn't reach these levels of comparability with heal until very late levels because it jumps hard with boosts to Con when they happen.
So IDK for sure but I feel like Treat Wounds is decently in line with its goals and certainly doesn't invalidate Healing magic. By the levels it's comparable to Heal we're at the point where characters of this level are supposed to be able to do crazy stuff by mundane means, and it still maintains its role as strictly out of battle while Heal is the swift in-battle body-mending.
Sorry, quoted 2 people when I only needed 1.
Also I'd like to reiterate, "30% chance of Treat Wounds healing..." vs. 100% chance of Heal Healing.
Why not just make a minor change in wording so that the DC is different depending on the level of the target. for a character of your level their would be no difference but in your 1 vrs 20 scenario it would be the dc of the 1st level person or as was suggested offer to heal less to lower the dc. That could be a good rule to put in.
I don't really understand why you don't just heal a larger amount based on the check, similar to how you can jump farther with a higher Athletics check.
If you use a static DC, then your level already has a good influence on the amount healed, since higher level characters will get higher check results.
DC 10 - You heal the target an amount equal to your level. For every 3 by which your check exceeds 10, the target also heals an amount equal to their Con modifier (min 1).
You can still Crit Succeed on a 20 for x3 healing and Crit Fail on a 1 for Bolstered.
This method can heal for more at low-mid levels as well as healing modestly less at high levels.
Vidmaster7 wrote: Why not just make a minor change in wording so that the DC is different depending on the level of the target. for a character of your level their would be no difference but in your 1 vrs 20 scenario it would be the dc of the 1st level person or as was suggested offer to heal less to lower the dc. That could be a good rule to put in. I did some math on the "heal less to lower the dc" and what I came up with, obviously varying depending on your stat boosts, and the target's CON, is that regardless of whether you invest the bare minimum to roughly keep up with the DC or whether you get every bonus, either as soon as possible, or in the case of item bonuses, lagged a little behind, you always wind up better off attempting a DC a few levels behind. By level 20, even the most optimized character is better off attempting a level 15 DC, while one only aimed at keeping up with the medium dc scaling is looking at something like level 11 DC. Which doesn't even factor in assurance. And the difference between using optimal DCs, and level appropriate DC can be around a quarter or a third, creeping up to about half of the optimal DC healing (in other words ~33%-50% or in extreme cases ~100% of level appropriate DC healing gained by optimizing), again depending on optimization and level.
I don't think this is inherently bad, but having to do optimization math to determine what DC to attempt, given the high gains of optimizing, seems like it might not be that great. I think basing it on the level of the person healed is probably the right call, instead, as the HP numbers will be in the more reasonable ballpark, relative to their injuries.
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If there's a way to word it sort of like the death saves, based on the worst enemy attack of the bunch, I think that would make it feel better.
But, at the end of the day, that's going to be super close to the number the current way gives with a ton of extra tracking. I'd probably end up using the current system as a short hand most of the time anyway, so putting it in the book rather than making it a "weird GM trick" is probably for the best.
Edge93 wrote: Sanmei wrote: Syndrous wrote: Mundane healing should be in no way comparable to magical healing. Level 20 channel rolls 20d6 or something like that. Level 20 treat Wounds has a 30% chance of restoring 240 hp, effectively doubling the best magical healing available. I feel like that's more an indictment on the inefficient and often insufficient restoration amount of magical healing.
Another item to factor in is high level alchemists with the Perfect Medicine feat. Alchemists are hard to play for a good chunk of the game, but once they get that, I'm pretty sure it makes them the best HP healers in the game.
Of course, alchemists can't raise the dead unless they reach level 20 and take Philosopher's Stone, and then only once each month. Not sure where you're getting 240 HP but I'm curious. I'm going to assume the 30% you cite isn't the theoretical crit chance for a Legendary rank maxed out Medicine user? Even though that seems like a ridiculously high crit chance I'll go with it. Cure wounds heals Con Mod (minimum 1) times level. A crit heals an additional 3x level (important to note it doesn't triple the healing, it adds triple your level. There's a big difference depending on your patient's Con mod).
This gives a Crit a minimum of 80 HP (if they have a Con mod of 0 or 1), a likely value of 120 or 140 (+3 or +4 Con mod) and a MAX of 180 (+6 Con mod, requires maxing the stat and putting your +2 magic item towards it.). None of that reaches 240 and all of that is crits which again I feel like 30% crit isn't happening but I'd be happy to see the math that gets it if you're sure. Non-crits drop all of the aforementioned values by 60, giving likely values of 60-80 and max of 120 over 10 minutes of healing while a Heal spell at top level averages about 93 (assuming you don't have the Healing Domain power added on) for 1 action.
And it's worth mentioning that Treat Wounds doesn't reach these levels of comparability with heal until very late levels because it jumps hard... I'm going to have to state that I misread that then. I read it as 3x total on a crit, and yes that was for a legendary medicine 20th level character.
Unfortunely I'm working right now and haven't had the time to double check or do further analysis.
I think a character should be able to reduce their level for the purpose of DC and healing done with this feat. For example, if you have a +13 against a DC 24, you can instead choose to reduce your level by... damn I don't have the table on hand. About 8, to reduce the DC to 14. You would heal a huge amount less, but succeed on a 2, crit on an 11, and never critically fail. Great option when time is not the limiting factor.
shroudb wrote: Scaling the DC on the basis of the healer’s level rather than the patient’s is counter-intuitive. When I read the treat wounds rule and the part about setting DC, I figured the DC was set at the level of the player because of the assumption that the activity is taking place after a battle which was appropriate for the character's level. In other words it's easier to treat the sort of injuries you get from a goblin or kobold than it is to treat the injuries you get from a Manticore, or from a Nalfeshnee, or a Balor.
I.e..... a kid falls off a bike... level 1 hazard encounter... mom puts a bandage on the knee and kisses it and the kid is back on her feet. Soldier gets shot, level 15 combat encounter, and a battlefield medic with a doctorate uses top of the line medical equipment to patch up that soldier.
So if the level 15 soldier is teaching her child to ride a bike and gets a cut when the kid falls on soldier's leg with the bike, I would totally use the level 1 DC, even if buddy the combat medic is the one applying the bandage on Soldier.
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