Does anyone think the use of intimidate in combat needs balancing. Mainly from a defensive stand point
The defence simply doesn’t scale will the skill rolls and I find it rather unrealistic at times
I am also prompted by:
- reading guides that discuss occult casting and how they can be so easily crippled
- one of my PCs recently using braggart - standard action dazzling display and succeeding on the roll of a 2 at level 3. It was only against mooks but it means any potential big bad will be debuffed probably 75% of the time
Am I the only only one who thinks this is nuts and that the Defense should be different somehow? Either scaling differently, adding an extra or different stat or even a skill?
Perhaps something’s own intimate proficiency should be factored in somehow?
What about strength? And bonuses for size? It doesn’t say they are factored in for demoralise but they should be. And they should compound as the category difference increases
Or am I the only one who has a problem with this ?
Am I the only only one who thinks this is nuts and that the Defense should be different somehow? Either scaling differently, adding an extra or different stat or even a skill?
Perhaps something’s own intimate proficiency should be factored in somehow?
What about strength? And bonuses for size? It doesn’t say they are factored in for demoralise but they should be. And they should compound as the category difference increases
Adding Strength would be strange since there's a feat, Intimidating Prowess, that does exactly that.
I'd actually argue that you should be able to choose between Charisma or Constitution as your base for Intimidate, since being physically imposing is generally scarier than being slick.Also, the size modifiers apply to demoralize.
And if you want the DC to scale better, consider stealing the mechanics from feinting.
10+BAB+Wis, or 10+Sense Motive if higher.
Am I the only only one who thinks this is nuts and that the Defense should be different somehow? Either scaling differently, adding an extra or different stat or even a skill?
Perhaps something’s own intimate proficiency should be factored in somehow?
What about strength? And bonuses for size? It doesn’t say they are factored in for demoralise but they should be. And they should compound as the category difference increasesAdding Strength would be strange since there's a feat, Intimidating Prowess, that does exactly that.
I'd actually argue that you should be able to choose between Charisma or Constitution as your base for Intimidate, since being physically imposing is generally scarier than being slick.Also, the size modifiers apply to demoralize.
And if you want the DC to scale better, consider stealing the mechanics from feinting.
10+BAB+Wis, or 10+Sense Motive if higher.
I meant adding strength to the defensive DC
I can’t quite get my head around wisdom. Is it supposed to be understanding if the intimidator actually is a threat ?
10+HD+Wis+size modifier is plenty to keep intimidate from being an issue. If your player was beating mooks on a 2 at level 3, they have at least a +10 Intimidate modifier which, while possible, is pretty optimized. With a Cavalier, that's +4 on top of skill ranks and class skill bonus. That Charisma bonus/feats necessary to get that big of a bonus barely do anything else for a Cavalier and if the player has spent feats/allocated ability score points just to improve their ability to demoralize, then I'd hope that they have a near 100% chance of demoralizing mooks.
Pit that same cavalier against a CR appropriate enemy, say, a Dire Wolf, and that PC needs a 10 or better to succeed. To get more than 1 round of shaken, that's 15 or better.
The occult casting thing can be an issue but the person doing the intimidating needs to know that's an option. I'd make them roll an appropriate Spellcraft check to identify the casting as Psychic, and then a Knowledge Arcana check to know that psychic spellcasting can be disrupted in that way. Intimidating isn't such a common strategy that I'd worry about people lucking into it, and psychic casters should be taking measures to protect against it anyways.
If you're really worried about your boss type NPCs getting shaken, you could always give them a circumstance bonus for being tough boss type but I'd personally just not worry about it. The action to intimidate isn't really worth Shaken for 1 round, and and is barely worth Shaken for 2 rounds. Shaken also hurts mooks way more than it hurts boss types, since mooks really need every little bonus to their rolls to stay relevant. Most boss types should still be a threat at a -2 penalty.
|
Let me see, I had a specific build for intimidating. (I called her the Intimidatrix.)
Half-Orc: +2
Charisma: +2
Intimidating Prowess: +4
Skill Focus: +3
Skills: 5 ranks
Class Skill: +3
Rage: +2
Trait Bonus: +1
That's a total of 22 at level 5.
The idea is that you take 2 levels of Barbarian for Rage and Intimidating Glare. 2 Levels of Cavalier for the Braggard ability and one level of Rogue with the Thug archetype for the Frightning ability. It's got some really great synergy making intimidate that much better and easier. Here's a quick list:
- Frightening adds 1 round whenever you demoralize someone.
- Braggart gives you Dazzling Display without needing Weapon Focus. It also gives you a +2 morale bonus on melee attack rolls against opponents you've demoralized.
- Intimidating Glare lets you intimidate adjacent opponents with a move action. It increases the duration of the shaken condition to 1d4 +1 round/5 points above the DC.
So, it's not that hard to roll at least a 23 at level 5. Don't forget that you don't automatically fail if you roll a 1 on a skill check. I think Lanathar has a point here.
And you still have a failure chance versus a lot of Large CR appropriate foes and can't intimidate anything mindless.
Multiclassing lowered your HP and attack rolls and you've spent 2 of your 3 feats on this one trick. For AP point buy, you also spent all your points on STR/CHA. For PFS point buy, it's 75%*. Don't get me wrong, you've got a very good trick - being able to consitently Frighten enemies in a 30ft burst at will is powerful. But you're showing a hyper-specialized build that makes sacrifices to pull off one trick and your trick gets worse as immunities and size bonuses come up more and more.
This is more my opinion than anything else but you also pretty much need that Thug level because Shaken isn't good enough to be unbalancing. It's a -2 to attacks, saves, and skills. It shouldn't be even close to enough on its own to defang any major threats. That makes Thug the issue, and not demoralizing.
*Though, like, 10 or 12 CHA would work fine for your build. It's still something to consider.
|
|
Actually, I had the elite array in mind with this build. 15 str, +2 from race and +1 from levels, 14 cha. This means that this is a build you can use on your players, which is an important thing people tend to forget when talking about balance. And yes, you could easily put 12 in charisma.
And yes, it doesn't work on mindless opponents. Or Paladins. (For some reason fighters only get the Bravery bonus on will saves against fear. That's easily houseruled though.)
Shaken seems like a pretty good debuff to me, but I could be wrong. You'd have to compare it with a 3rd level spell. I suppose it will get weaker later in the game.
Standard action. - Targets every opponent within 30 ft. - -2 penalty on attack and saves. - Wonky duration, but at least 2 rounds. - High chance of success. - If you've got Braggart you get a nice +2 morale bonus on melee attack rolls. It doesn't help your allies, but it's stilla nice bonus.
This doesn't include all the other things you get, such as Fast Movement, Rage, Sneak Attack, Challenge and Tactician. It's a fun build to play that shows that martials can have nice things.
I am just picturing how upset my players could easily be if I told them they were having a penalty imposed on them with no real way of building a defence.
They can prepare saves and AC and tactical movement for example. Against this depending on the enemy they have no chance
This includes the normal standard action demoralise anyone can do and might do if they can’t reach where they want to
I think I will houserule in bravery but that is only a small bump
Can raging barbarians be affected ? If so then I will give their will save bonus to this as well
Indeed tying it to will or will connected things seems to make some degree of sense - so adding in will save or iron will or force of personality . Rather than just wisdom. Unsure of the balance of this though. This could go too far the other way ...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you want to up the defence vs Intimidate, make all effects that give a bonus to saving throws vs fear effects also apply to Intimidate checks.
I am just picturing how upset my players could easily be if I told them they were having a penalty imposed on them with no real way of building a defence.
If my DM asked if I would rather get hit by a martial foe or take -2 to attack rolls and saves, I'd take the second option every time. It's also not just telling them that they're taking penalties, it's this:
"What's everyone's Wisdom modifier? *rolling sounds* Okay, so the knight points to each of you and declares that today is the day you die. It's pretty intimidating, you're going to be taking the Shaken penalty for 2 rounds, except for Draxil the Unwise, you're Frightened for 1 round. He then moves... here, and who's next in the initiative?"I'd pretty much have to physically see the DM roll terribly before I questioned a situation like that and, like I just said, I'd be happy that the martial NPC isn't attacking.
Also, Owl's Wisdom gives +2 to your defense, and Enlarge Person gives +4. They're both affordable as potions. You don't want to fight while Shaken? Retreat for the 2-3 rounds it takes for Shaken to wear off, Enlarge yourself and come back. You've now got +4 to your defense from size and +5 from the retry penalty for +9.
Actually, I had the elite array in mind with this build. 15 str, +2 from race and +1 from levels, 14 cha.
That's kind of just proving my point even more. That character has no touch AC and no Will save, she's going to be wrecked by the first caster she encounters. Using the same Elite Array standards, the Intimidatrix has only a 35% chance of succeeding a Will save against a 1st level caster. It gets better if she's raging (45%) but she's not favored to win Initiative and it's still not consistent.
This means that this is a build you can use on your players, which is an important thing people tend to forget when talking about balance.
The Intimidatrix isn't threatening as an NPC because of the CR system. She can't have much level appropriate back up (roughly 2-4 is the max) and still be a reasonably CR'd fight. She can't be a threat on her own because of that "loses to Will saves" problem (plus the action economy problem). She's got a max of +13 to hit and a max of 20 AC (Heavy Shield, +1 Dex, Full Plate) while raging, so she's also not much threat to even a shaken PC if the APL matches her level or is greater than it.
The possibility of Frighten-locking the entire party exists but every time she demoralizes, the DC is raised by 5 to demoralize again. It's difficult to accidentally set up a scenario where a group of CR-appropriate NPCs will kill fleeing PCs in the 2-3 rounds she's able to keep you frightened. I still feel that this is more an issue of the Thug archetype than an issue with demoralizing. If Frightening is removed as a possibility, the PCs can still fight, they just hit 10% less often and fail 10% more saves. That can't be enough of a factor to be unbalancing.
The Intimidatrix is tough (it's a good build!) and there's definitely some creative pairings that could be done with her as part of an enemy team to make a challenging encounter. But she's not unbalanced.
This is most definitely an issue. Skills are far easier to scale than wisdom which is the only defense against intimidation most PCs reasonably have. For a psychic caster this is absolutely crippling. and as was mentioned the thug archetype takes this to absolutely broken levels. Player: Here's the BBEG, hmm I yell at it. GM: sigh, it runs away... we will be discussing this later...
Even with out the thug archetype if you use the unchained skill unlocks this can be done from level 5 or 10 on (I can't remember which right now) though it is harder than it is for the thug it's still very easy with a small level of optimization. However a defense is beyond even really good optimization skill baring a few very specific items/class features.
For things I know of to avoid this problem there's the padma blossom, 3 levels in paladin, there's an ifrit racial trait that limits intimidation effects to a single round, and... well that's most of the preventative measures. Not much there, though I'm sure there are many I've missed. I'd be interested in learning more BTW.
BTW I believe the DC for intimidate only goes up on a "failed save"
It is already balanced?
A fairly easy to apply short term low level debuff as a standard action, that can be built on to become an AOE, allow flat footed or extra strikes.
Nothing about that is unbalanced, therefore does not need to be rebalanced.
BTW I believe the DC for intimidate only goes up on a "failed save"
I've looked through the Skills section and the Intimidate section and can't find a quote that limits Try Again? to failure. I miss stuff sometimes, though, do you have a rules quote that confirms it only applies to failures?
For a psychic caster this is absolutely crippling.
Remove Fear. 50gp for a potion, or 15gp a wand change you're a capital P Psychic. There is also Logical Spell, which is reasonably cheap as Rod.
Skill Unlock
Switching the DC to 20+HD+WIS+size mod and then throwing a Will save on top (5% chance of auto-success) actually makes it reasonable. Thug is mostly an issue in tandem with Intimidating Glare, where the various duration additions mean you have a 50% chance of getting Frightened on the base DC and a 75% chance on getting Frightened on base DC+5. Those chances are on very low rolls, too - the Intimidatrix will auto-Frighten on DC 20+HD+WIS+size mod like the skill unlock and never has to face a saving throw.
The shaken condition, while a useful debuff, isn't a big deal. The best way to 'defend' against it is to be good enough that a -2 penalty doesn't stop you. Thugs are when it gets problematic; the will save vs the skill unlock is a good enough balancing factor.
For a psychic caster note placebo effect as a more general workaround. There are also a few psychic spells which don't have emotional (S) components.
Here's the description of the demoralize portion of intimidate from the d20PFSRD:
Demoralize Opponent
You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.
Success: If you are successful, the target is shaken for one round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
Fail: The opponent is not shaken.
Action Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Retry? You can attempt to intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after one hour has passed.
I suppose the question of whether the DC goes up on subsequent successful checks is debatable. To me it seems like it only increases on a failed check, but I can see it being interpreted both ways.
Yes there are consumables to undo the damage of intimidate to a psychic caster, but it doesn't prevent it which was my point. This isn't so bad if it requires a standard action to do. Basically you each trade standard actions until one of you runs out of resources or chooses to do something else.
Logical spell is nice and is pretty much a necessity for a psychic caster, however it's tough to use if you have an opponent who really wants to shut you down. Most psychic casters are spontaneous so you have to use a full round action to use metamagic. Well, if I want to shut you down I run up next to you and intimidate you, what can you do now? Well you can't step away and use metamagic, you can't take a move action to focus yourself and cast defensively, so unless you have it in a rod, and have a extra hand free, you basically can run (and hope you are not pursued), or try to do something other than cast a spell for the rest of the fight. The next round the same thing happens again over and over again unless you can get enough space to actually use the awesome metamagic you spent a feat for.
Whew, that was a lot of angst lol. Please don't think I'm attacking anyone, I'm mostly frustrated that it is so easy to disable a psychic caster. In my opinion emotion components should have only forced a difficult concentration check similar to thought components when casting defensively.
I do agree that the unchained skill unlock isn't so bad. Because it allows that will save to the frightened condition it's reasonably balanced if still one of the best unlocks a person can pick.
The real problem is when there are abilities that let a person intimidate without the action cost. Feats like enforcer come to mind. There's abilities can cause tremendous damage when combined with the wrong abilities.
Really it comes down to this, intimidate can be forced onto pretty much anyone by a person who invest even a bit into doing so. There's very limited defenses. Normally it's not a big deal because it dosn't do much. But when Being intimidated means very powerful effect applies (such as frighted or unable to cast a spell, flat footed etc.) it becomes very obvious that one shouldn't be able to apply such powerful effects without an opponent having some form of recourse.
Imagine I gave a character a spell that they could cast an infinite number of times per day that probably 70% or more creatures would be vulnerable to and that it had a guaranteed chance of success with the investment of a feat or two. Even if it only applied a debuff it would be considered a pretty good ability
That's pretty close to what intimidate can do with the right set of choices.
PS: I'm sorry I know I am being pretty adamant here, I really am not going after anyone.
|
|
Intimidate in combat is indeed broken and I have a rog/barb character who uses it to the fullest advantage. At this point he is level 15 and his intimidate skill is 31 while raging. He gets a free-action intimidate check against all opponents within 30 feet when he kills an enemy. He almost always beats the DC to intimidate by 10 and often by 20. I wouldn't be too upset if they nerfed it at this point, because it drives my GM crazy when I make all the non-undead enemies run for the hills or cower. One thing to note though, is that it is pretty easy to save against intimidate on their turn. This amounts to the affect lasting just long enough to clear out the bad guys, kill one when they come back and do it again.
Intimidate in combat is indeed broken and I have a rog/barb character who uses it to the fullest advantage. At this point he is level 15 and his intimidate skill is 31 while raging. He gets a free-action intimidate check against all opponents within 30 feet when he kills an enemy. He almost always beats the DC to intimidate by 10 and often by 20. I wouldn't be too upset if they nerfed it at this point, because it drives my GM crazy when I make all the non-undead enemies run for the hills or cower. One thing to note though, is that it is pretty easy to save against intimidate on their turn. This amounts to the affect lasting just long enough to clear out the bad guys, kill one when they come back and do it again.
When you say pretty easy on their turn do you mean with potion of remove fear?
And having it be - one dies, the rest run, they rally, come back, one dies, they run etc seems very “gamey” and not how I would expect people to react. That is bad GM tactics in that case I suppose. But if you have run in fear from someone you don’t keep coming back for more. Anything they would stop and think “hey, I really am strong enough to take this guy out “ probably shouldn’t have run in the first place - which is the point I am trying to get at about the defense being too easy to be
Probably the best points of comparison are either going to be witch evil eye or mesmerist stare. But I can’t look at that just now due to time constraints
Here's the description of the demoralize portion of intimidate from the d20PFSRD:
Demoralize Opponent
You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.Success: If you are successful, the target is shaken for one round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
Fail: The opponent is not shaken.
Action Demoralizing an opponent is a standard action.
Retry? You can attempt to intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after one hour has passed.
I suppose the question of whether the DC goes up on subsequent successful checks is debatable. To me it seems like it only increases on a failed check, but I can see it being interpreted both ways.
Yes there are consumables to undo the damage of intimidate to a psychic caster, but it doesn't prevent it which was my point. This isn't so bad if it requires a standard action to do. Basically you each trade standard actions until one of you runs out of resources or chooses to do something else.
Logical spell is nice and is pretty much a necessity for a psychic caster, however it's tough to use if you have an opponent who really wants to shut you down. Most psychic casters are spontaneous so you have to use a full round action to use metamagic. Well, if I want to shut you down I run up next to you and intimidate you, what can you do now? Well you can't step away and use metamagic, you can't take a move action to focus yourself and cast defensively, so unless you have it in a rod, and have a extra hand free, you...
"Retry? You can attempt to intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5. This increase resets after one hour has passed."
It does not say if it failed you can try again, just that to intimidate someone again you gain a +5 to the dc.
Intimidate in combat is indeed broken and I have a rog/barb character who uses it to the fullest advantage. At this point he is level 15 and his intimidate skill is 31 while raging. He gets a free-action intimidate check against all opponents within 30 feet when he kills an enemy. He almost always beats the DC to intimidate by 10 and often by 20. I wouldn't be too upset if they nerfed it at this point, because it drives my GM crazy when I make all the non-undead enemies run for the hills or cower. One thing to note though, is that it is pretty easy to save against intimidate on their turn. This amounts to the affect lasting just long enough to clear out the bad guys, kill one when they come back and do it again.
Why are they cowering and running for the hills?
You must have something extra going on because intimidate doesn’t do that.
|
|
Intimidate in combat is indeed broken and I have a rog/barb character who uses it to the fullest advantage. At this point he is level 15 and his intimidate skill is 31 while raging. He gets a free-action intimidate check against all opponents within 30 feet when he kills an enemy. He almost always beats the DC to intimidate by 10 and often by 20. I wouldn't be too upset if they nerfed it at this point, because it drives my GM crazy when I make all the non-undead enemies run for the hills or cower. One thing to note though, is that it is pretty easy to save against intimidate on their turn. This amounts to the affect lasting just long enough to clear out the bad guys, kill one when they come back and do it again.Why are they cowering and running for the hills?
You must have something extra going on because intimidate doesn’t do that.
that would be the Frightening ability from the Thug Archtype.
Why can't you guys just let martials have nice things....
I dunno if you're responding to the whole thread or what but in regards to the Thug, it's the equivalent of getting the 4th level spell Fear at will with a way better chance of success. I'd consider a caster broken for doing that at the levels that the levels a Thug can.
PS: I'm sorry I know I am being pretty adamant here, I really am not going after anyone.
Doesn't feel that way to me!
As for the psychic casting thing, it just doesn't seem like it's that bad. Unless you're facing an Intimidation specialist, your natural defense can work. Intimidate doesn't work unless you're in melee and normal casters can't cast in melee.
The items are for having in hand if you think intimidation will be risk. You just withdraw and wait the one or two rounds otherwise. Or you tumble and Command the person who intimidated you to flee. In the higher levels, you can use Dimension Door to escape or Displacement to reduce the chance you get hit with your casting down. Enforcer/Cornugon Smash can be a problem but any caster who is getting hit every turn probably isn't going to have a great time.
I don't really like it either but it seems like a fair trade off for auto-silent, auto-stilled spells (plus undercasting seems like it's pretty great for spontaneous casters).
Why can't you guys just let martials have nice things....I dunno if you're responding to the whole thread or what but in regards to the Thug, it's the equivalent of getting the 4th level spell Fear at will with a way better chance of success. I'd consider a caster broken for doing that at the levels that the levels a Thug can.
Sounds like a problem with the thug archetype not intimidate in general than.
|
|
that would be the Frightening ability from the Thug Archtype.Intimidate in combat is indeed broken and I have a rog/barb character who uses it to the fullest advantage. At this point he is level 15 and his intimidate skill is 31 while raging. He gets a free-action intimidate check against all opponents within 30 feet when he kills an enemy. He almost always beats the DC to intimidate by 10 and often by 20. I wouldn't be too upset if they nerfed it at this point, because it drives my GM crazy when I make all the non-undead enemies run for the hills or cower. One thing to note though, is that it is pretty easy to save against intimidate on their turn. This amounts to the affect lasting just long enough to clear out the bad guys, kill one when they come back and do it again.Why are they cowering and running for the hills?
You must have something extra going on because intimidate doesn’t do that.
Unchained rogues get Rogue's Edge, which opens up the "Skill Unlocks" for a specific skill at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20.
Intimidate Unchained
With sufficient ranks in Intimidate, you earn the following. An asterisk (*) indicates the total duration cannot exceed 1 round plus 1 round for every 5 by which you exceed the DC.
5 Ranks: If you exceed the DC to demoralize a target by at least 10, it is frightened for 1 round and shaken thereafter.* A Will save (DC = 10 + your number of ranks in Intimidate) negates the frightened condition, but the target is still shaken, even if it has the stalwart ability.
10 Ranks: If you exceed the DC to demoralize a target by at least 10, it is panicked for 1 round or frightened for 1d4 rounds (your choice) and shaken thereafter.* A Will save (DC = 10 + your number of ranks in Intimidate) negates the frightened or panicked condition, but the target is still shaken, even if it has the stalwart ability.
15 Ranks: If you exceed the DC to demoralize a target by at least 20, it is cowering for 1 round or panicked for 1d4 rounds (your choice) and frightened thereafter.* A Will save (DC = 10 + your number of ranks in Intimidate) negates the cowering, panicked, and frightened conditions, but the target is still shaken, even if it has the stalwart ability.
20 Ranks: If you exceed the DC to demoralize a target by at least 20, it is cowering for 1d4 rounds and panicked thereafter.* A Will save (DC = 10 + your number of ranks in Intimidate) negates the cowering and panicked conditions, but the target is still shaken, even if it has the stalwart ability.
I have the feat chain Dazzling Display- Intimidate check as a full-round action to demoralize all foes within 30 feet and Dreadful Carnage- Free action Intimidate check to demoralize all enemies within 30 feet when you reduce an enemy to 0 or fewer hit points. I also have Cornugon Smash- When you hit with a power attack may make an immediate intimidate check as a free action.
This whole character is optimized to deal massive amounts of non-lethal damage(over 1000 per round at level 20) and to intimidate the crap out of everyone.
Sounds like a problem with the thug archetype not intimidate in general than.
Yeah, but this is Pathfinder we're talking about. When a dip into Master of Many Styles to grab Crane Wing was problematic in shitty written PFS scenarios, the response was to utterly nerf the feat. So naturally, the only sensible response here is to completely kill intimidate!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Intimidate is broken now? This is almost as fun as the "rogues are OP" thread from a month or so ago.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you want to up the defence vs Intimidate, make all effects that give a bonus to saving throws vs fear effects also apply to Intimidate checks.But ... you are already supposed to get your bonuses(or penalties) on Fear effects vs Intimidate. Presumably, this means it increases the DC to intimidate you, since the 'attacker' is the one rolling the die. I can see how its commonly missed, since its in FAQ, and not rules text though.
What makes something a fear effect? What about a morale effect?
Fear effects include spells with the fear descriptor, anything explicitly called out as a fear effect, anything that causes the shaken, frightened, or panicked condition, and all uses of the Intimidate skill. Intimidate, in particular, is a mind-affecting fear effect, so fearless and mindless creatures are immune to all uses of Intimidate.Morale effects, unlike fear effects, so far have not had a descriptor or a call-out. Anything that grants a morale bonus is a morale effect. For example, the rage spell grants a morale bonus, so a creature immune to morale effects would be immune to the entire spell, including the –2 penalty to AC. posted January 2015
Correct. But most effects that give bonuses vs fear explicitly increase your saving throw... Intimidate to demoralize does not involve saving throws. While it is a logical house rule, RAW things like a fighter's bravery do not apply to Intimidate: Demoralize.
Funny, I have an OP Rogue who has broken Intimidate!Come back when they can worp reality and open up gates to heaven and hell to summon forth minions.
Among non-spellcasting classes, rogues can gimmick their through doing exactly those things better than most. All it takes is gold.
If you want to up the defence vs Intimidate, make all effects that give a bonus to saving throws vs fear effects also apply to Intimidate checks.
Theres a drow zen archer with snake style, nightmare fist and similar stuff in my group now.
She intimidates everything in the whole darkness area. Including dragons. Thats why she hates my undead.
Oh, I like that combo! Widened Draconic Malice would be helpful for her...
Oh, I like that combo! Widened Draconic Malice would be helpful for her...
Very good advice since she multiclassed to inquisitor and will have level three spells soon!
My wife is very happy about her heresy Inquisition for boosting Intimidate. WIS+7 and Stern gaze.
Oh, I like that combo! Widened Draconic Malice would be helpful for her...Very good advice since she multiclassed to inquisitor and will have level three spells soon!
My wife is very happy about her heresy Inquisition for boosting Intimidate. WIS+7 and Stern gaze.
Just had it pointed out to me (and re-read the spell) that Draconic Malice only affects the living. Oops. We are back to 3 levels of Mesmerist with Psychic Inception for a 50% chance to affect undead as the only way I know of getting around that... Or 3 levels of Anti-Paladin, but that's rarely thematic for a PC.
@River of Sticks
If you have decent Charisma, then Death's Nightmare is an option.
@River of Sticks
If you have decent Charisma, then Death's Nightmare is an option.
Interesting....
...how many undead are actually mindless (they being the only things the feat applies to)?
(The "zombie apocalypse" is an overworn trope, but IIRC I only fought them a few times at low/mid level in PFS.)
Not many? Though spellcasters may have mindless undead under their control. Usually skeletons or zombies (including variants) though there are a few more obscure types like frostfallen (another template), beheaded, bonestorms, maybe a few more.
@River of Sticks
If you have decent Charisma, then Death's Nightmare is an option.
Thanks, thats what she was looking for, sadly shes horribly feat starved.