I had a thought recently when planning one of my boss encounters - since action economy tends to make single-monster encounters much more steamrolls than epic encounters, what if I just... gave the boss man more actions?
This is partially taken from 5e's epic actions/lair actions, but a bit simpler. What would the implications be if I gave a boss monster/character a move or standard action in between the PC's turns? In the scenario I'm specifically thinking about, the boss is a mostly martial character, as opposed to a spellcaster (which I feel would be MUCH more powerful with this ruleset), and so he could move in between PCs and keep attacking, or reposition in between their turns to throw off their strategies.
Is this giving the boss monster too much to work with? Could it end up being too much for the PCs, or is there a precedent for this sort of thing?
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What kind of monster are we talking about? what level is the party?
also, implementing rules from another system could feel like cheating. Discuss this strategy with the players and see if they agree with it. more than likely, they'll argue "why can't we do that?"
The easiest course for players to understand what's going on- is "readying a move action when approached by a hero"
So, the monster readies to move, hero approaches, suddenly monster moves!
with the fuzzy wording of "approached"- it works when a hero charges.
Depending on the party level, you can add templates or use abilities from other monsters that punish heroes from being too close to it, or actively engage it. Lead Golems have a "miasmic dust" ability that triggers whenever it's hit; Caryatid Columns have that Shatter Weapons defense. numerous monsters have auras that require checks vs penalties.
Flying + Reach + Flyby Attack + Natural Invisibility is always a good combination
The Mythic rules allow for this sort of thing. The Agile Template is what you're looking for, maybe? Specifically Dual Initiative, which gives them a second turn at -20 initiative.
It's not a bad idea.
I had a similar encounter as a player in a different game system, where the last boss got a turn directly after each of ours. It certainly made it challenging, more so since it was immune to all status effects.
Some words of advice:
Even though the boss has more actions it is still just as vulnerable to negative conditions. This matters a lot if the party has access to such effects, making it a lot harder if they don't.
And consider if you want to give the boss 1:1 actions to number of players. In the game I played, one player felt like dead weight since they weren't able to contribute enough to offset the extra actions they inflicted upon the party.
E.G. the cleric heals the tank for 30 HP, and the boss deals 40 damage to the tank with the actions they gained from the cleric's turn.
The party's around level 11 at this point, and is built to basically facetank through most mobs I throw at them - they have a lifelink oracle who does some insanely efficient healing, three melee beasts (a brawler/fighter, an inquisitor, and a magus), and a wizard for CC. They pretty much buff themselves to hell and back before running down a dungeon hallway swinging wildly. They're a fun group to play with, I'm just trying to build some interesting stuff to challenge them with (and also as a test to see if it's something I could use rarely to spice up an encounter/if there's something similar already in the ruleset). I've had them fight a big horde, deal with some ranged challenges, etc., I'm just always on the hunt to make combats feel distinct from each other!
The fight in question is with a speedy-fast fighter type, who's really slippery but pretty basic in terms of what he can DO (which is just... hit people then run away, he's focused on clever engagement tactics combined with strength). My other thought for this was a combat patrol type build for the boss.
Ah, I hadn't thought about Mythic templates - the agile one seems like it might be interesting, and maybe not quite as overwhelming as the base Mythic rules can be. Actually, with the combat patrol build, if he went first and last in a round (almost guaranteed from how I see it), his first init pass could be setting up the combat patrol, and then his second pass would be a full attack or something - then he could set up the patrol again at the top of the next round!
I like the idea of him absorbing their abilities, somehow... that could be an interesting way for the fight to feel less boring. The party is definitely more buffing than debuffing, but I know they could bring some of that into play.
Go with a Cleaving Smash/Nodachi build if you want rocket tag.
Go with something like an Maneuver Master 2/Aldori Swordlord X if you want a longer fighter.
You should probably play the Dark Souls board game where you eventually fight bosses.
Long story short the way they work is:
* You face a first phase where they have some number of cards in a deck. These are revealed each time they'd have an action and show how they'll attack and thus which "arcs" take damage/saves/etc.
* These stay in order allowing the party to prepare for them as they go
* After you defeat the first phase, more cards are added to the deck and it is shuffled, meaning you now have more dangerous moves and have to learn how it moves again.
Now.. that game is quite difficult and it's not a perfect mirror; but it does some interesting things. It lets you do AoE melee attacks that are fair because the party learns how it moves and what to avoid. It makes him like a puzzle to be solved, which is very "Boss like."
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Some things I've done (though lower level):
* Ghost boss inspired by some of the haunt rules where it can inhabit a corpse. Each room the party entered the boss would start in an undead body, reanimate, attack. Then it would appear, they could fight it for a round, then if they didn't do enough damage it would inhabit an additional body. At some point it couldn't retreat anymore and they had a "showdown"
* A standard "Summoning Ooze" from 3.5 in a room with several pillars and it was perched in a balcony. Each turn it summoned a Bloody Skeleton near the party as they tried to climb to it and fought off the skellies. Then they could fight it when they got there.
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Some monsters work very well with singleton movesets if they have a large combination of feats/abilities. For instance, if you have Bulette Leap/Rampage, Combat Reflexes, a reach of 15ft or something, and a high speed; you can have a monster who uses Overrun (and acts like trample sort of) to knock everyone down as best it can. Those that try to get up it gets free attacks on and have to waste actions getting up.
This makes it charge through (which is interesting), cause "AoE damage" that is avoidable (strategic), knock people around (cinematic), and force interesting decisions (do I try to get up?); which all form a memorable encounter. Add in an area that favors this (such as a long massive corridor with little areas to hide in on the sides) and a secondary thing that the monster will do every other turn or three; and you have a good encounter.
Further, if you were to add hazards, secondary objectives, a "second form", or similar; you now have a half session or more of material, all in the same area/same thing. That's an encounter people will remember.
late to the party here, but personally i take the 4e approach: inflate their hp and give them multiple initiatives, effectively treating them as multiple characters/monsters sharing the same space and build.
I would suggest looking into Kirthfinder.
The combat has been revamped, with characters gaining a number of immediate actions and partial actions based on their BAB (you start off with 1 of each and gain +1 to both at levels 6, 11 & 16).
Partial actions can be used as move actions, but can also be used to make iterative attacks. Any character can choose to hold some of their partial actions, then use it when they wish as an immediate action. This allows for a more dynamic and free flowing combat.
It also makes for a much tougher one, due to the extra mobility. If you really want to punish your players, then take one of the revamped classes, like the Kirthfinder Fighter. With the revamped feat list (where there are ZERO feat taxes or trap options), it's easy to make an incredibly challenging non-magic encounter with this system.
Messing with the system like that can carry risks, both in implementation (rocket tag problems) and reception.
I would turn towards 'a boss that is multiple' first. Magical clones/mirror images ('shadow clones'), possession of multiple bodies ("we are legion" mind control). etc. That way, you can narratively have a single boss, but in practice it has the action economy and multiple targets the game is made for.
If you want to go with multiple actions, it might be better to go the route used by video games- have those actions localized to 'parts' that are basically their own characters. Example- the boss has multiple tentacles, and each tentacle can move independently (has its own actions), but those tentacles each have their own health bar (as well as an individual token on the game map- shows the players that they can target/destroy it). This would be a good option for aberrations (which can be all sorts of weird shapes) or undead, or just anything that might have multiple heads.
I would build a high AC boss with Smashing Cleave and Greater Cleave.
Not so much rocket tag, can deals damage to everyone in reach.
I had a thought recently when planning one of my boss encounters - since action economy tends to make single-monster encounters much more steamrolls than epic encounters, what if I just... gave the boss man more actions?
Is this giving the boss monster too much to work with? Could it end up being too much for the PCs, or is there a precedent for this sort of thing?
This can effectively be done by designing in-combat traps which I find to be really rare in published content. Trigger spots on a map, or actions triggered by hp reduction etc. It gives the big meaty brute some form of battlefield control and bonus type actions without portraying the monster as having more attacks than allowed. Plus it's great flavor and will catch your PC's off guard.
Snare traps to trip or disarm, dart traps to poison, net traps to entangle, or even low level defensive spell stuff like obscuring mist. It will have your party spending actions, making saves, and using skills on a greater variety of things like retrieving weapons or climbing out of a hole. I've found that this can make combat less robotic "okay it's my turn? I do 16 damage, now your turn." and more like the chaotic scramble that combat with a monster should be.
It depends on the situation though. Doesn't make too much sense for big ole dummies fabricating elaborate snare traps.
This can effectively be done by designing in-combat traps which I find to be really rare in published content. Trigger spots on a map, or actions triggered by hp reduction etc. It gives the big meaty brute some form of battlefield control and bonus type actions without portraying the monster as having more attacks than allowed. Plus it's great flavor and will catch your PC's off guard.
Snare traps to trip or disarm, dart traps to poison, net traps to entangle, or even low level defensive spell stuff like obscuring mist. It will have your party spending actions, making saves, and using skills on a greater variety of things like retrieving weapons or climbing out of a hole. I've found that this can make combat less robotic "okay it's my turn? I do 16 damage, now your turn." and more like the chaotic scramble that combat with a monster should be.
It depends on the situation though. Doesn't make too much sense for big ole dummies fabricating elaborate snare traps.
AoE, pressure plate activated traps triggered by Summon Monster 1. Why can't the enemies do that too?
Other options might exist, such as throwing stones and such... but I feel that summoned monsters have a nice 'set up and pay off'- it is obvious that SOMETHING is going to happen with them. The BBEG uses a wand during his monologue, and the summons a few dogs or birds. The party might ignore it... to their detriment. and if they decided "shoot the things down before something happens"? ... well, that is a turn spent NOT shooting the BBEG.
I've had a boss fight recently where they got to take a turn for every turn the PCs got. It was really dangerous and surprised my party, it got super intense.
The boss would have been dead before it got to take 3 actions normally, but instead got to take 15 actions or so and nearly crushed the party.
I've had a boss fight recently where they got to take a turn for every turn the PCs got. It was really dangerous and surprised my party, it got super intense.
The boss would have been dead before it got to take 3 actions normally, but instead got to take 15 actions or so and nearly crushed the party.
What was the in-world justification for the boss's crazy action economy?
Actually... it might be better to have one COMBATANT, but allow for various other creatures to work in the background.
Example- you step into the lair of a dragon. It is being served by various lvl 1 kobolds (the fans, the grapes, the other cliches). The kobolds scurry off into the corners once they notice that the lair is under attack. The party ignores the kobolds as window dressing.
And then, in the middle of the fight, the dragon commands the kobolds to hit the switch. The stage is flooded with a paralysis and/or sleep gas. The dragon is immune, and you didn't prepare any specific protection against that.
This allows you to preserve the single boss focus, but allows for simple measures that can allow him to use environmental traps without using his own action economy. The smart party (ie- one that has fallen for this trick before) would take out the kobolds- and the dragon would use that time to smack the party around.
This is simpler and less likely to cause major problems than a complete rework of action economy. With full action economy, you run the risk of rocket tag.